1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,367 S1 Historian Calls Approach to America `Non-Academic' 2 00:00:01,367 --> 00:00:06,667 PAUL JOHNSON is known for undertaking tasks of 3 00:00:06,667 --> 00:00:08,234 enormous scope. 4 00:00:08,234 --> 00:00:11,868 His past books include The Quest for God, A History of the Jews, 5 00:00:11,868 --> 00:00:13,601 and Modern Times. 6 00:00:13,601 --> 00:00:16,267 So it is perhaps not a surprise that his latest work is simply 7 00:00:16,267 --> 00:00:18,801 called A History of the American People. 8 00:00:18,801 --> 00:00:23,100 It is a 900-page examination of the character and development of 9 00:00:23,100 --> 00:00:25,167 this country and its citizens. 10 00:00:25,167 --> 00:00:28,968 I am pleased to have this distinguished author on this 11 00:00:28,968 --> 00:00:29,968 program. 12 00:00:29,968 --> 00:00:30,968 Welcome. 13 00:00:30,968 --> 00:00:33,000 PAUL JOHNSON, Author of ``A History of the American 14 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,000 People'': Thank you. 15 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,000 You come at American history from what 16 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,000 perspective? 17 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,367 Well, from a non-academic perspective because 18 00:00:40,367 --> 00:00:43,467 we weren't taught American history at school or at Oxford 19 00:00:43,467 --> 00:00:44,467 University. 20 00:00:44,467 --> 00:00:48,801 I learnt it by meeting Americans and by coming to America, and 21 00:00:48,801 --> 00:00:51,734 then finally getting down to study it in detail. 22 00:00:51,734 --> 00:00:56,067 So, I came without any academic preconceptions. 23 00:00:56,067 --> 00:00:59,501 And I think in a way that's helpful because it gives a 24 00:00:59,501 --> 00:01:00,801 certain fresh approach. 25 00:01:00,801 --> 00:01:03,601 And this is a history with a point of view 26 00:01:03,601 --> 00:01:04,601 about America. 27 00:01:04,601 --> 00:01:06,667 It's a point of view. 28 00:01:06,667 --> 00:01:07,667 Yes. 29 00:01:07,667 --> 00:01:12,234 It works on the assumption that America is a good thing, that 30 00:01:12,234 --> 00:01:17,801 the American people are on whole well intentioned and decent 31 00:01:17,801 --> 00:01:18,801 people. 32 00:01:18,801 --> 00:01:21,567 Those are assumptions which people don't always make these 33 00:01:21,567 --> 00:01:22,567 days. 34 00:01:22,567 --> 00:01:25,868 They sure don't, and I want to talk about that. 35 00:01:25,868 --> 00:01:26,868 What is unique about us? 36 00:01:26,868 --> 00:01:27,868 What's special? 37 00:01:27,868 --> 00:01:33,534 I think what is unique is that you are genuine 38 00:01:33,534 --> 00:01:38,834 idealists and at the same time very successful materialists. 39 00:01:38,834 --> 00:01:43,567 And that's rather important because, as Mrs. Thatcher used 40 00:01:43,567 --> 00:01:47,601 to say to me, the Good Samaritan wouldn't have been able to be 41 00:01:47,601 --> 00:01:51,133 good if he hadn't have made his pile in the first place. 42 00:01:51,133 --> 00:01:56,901 And the United States would not be able to pursue its utopian 43 00:01:56,901 --> 00:02:01,133 and idealistic dreams and be a benefactor to the world if it 44 00:02:01,133 --> 00:02:03,601 wasn't very, very successful at material things. 45 00:02:03,601 --> 00:02:05,000 The two are indispensable. 46 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,634 So, we have idealism, and we also have 47 00:02:08,634 --> 00:02:11,067 material success, commercial success. 48 00:02:11,067 --> 00:02:12,067 We have wealth. 49 00:02:12,067 --> 00:02:15,400 Right. 50 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:17,400 And we have values. 51 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:18,400 Right. 52 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:20,400 What are the values that are important? 53 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:23,534 Well, I would put them in this order-- Religious 54 00:02:23,534 --> 00:02:26,467 values, Ten Commandments, basic old-fashioned Christian 55 00:02:26,467 --> 00:02:31,000 morality, that comes first and foremost Secondly, a belief in 56 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,801 the rule of law, that is absolutely essential to American 57 00:02:34,801 --> 00:02:39,834 government. 58 00:02:39,834 --> 00:02:43,567 America broke away from Britain in the first place because they 59 00:02:43,567 --> 00:02:47,601 thought the British crown was breaking the law, so the rule of 60 00:02:47,601 --> 00:02:50,601 law is absolutely fundamental to American institutions and the 61 00:02:50,601 --> 00:02:54,300 American attitude of life The third thing is a sense of 62 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:55,300 representative government. 63 00:02:55,300 --> 00:02:57,968 I think that goes back very deep in America. 64 00:02:57,968 --> 00:03:02,000 It's astonishingly early, as I explain in my book how early in 65 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,033 America's history that representative institutions were 66 00:03:04,033 --> 00:03:05,033 established. 67 00:03:05,033 --> 00:03:07,033 Almost as soon as the first settlers arrived. 68 00:03:07,033 --> 00:03:10,734 I asked you what was unique about our character. 69 00:03:10,734 --> 00:03:14,400 These things -- those three things that you just ticked off 70 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,434 could be applicable to Great Britain. 71 00:03:16,434 --> 00:03:19,801 I think to a certain extent they are. 72 00:03:19,801 --> 00:03:22,501 However, I was going to add a fourth. 73 00:03:22,501 --> 00:03:27,100 And the fourth is a devotion to freedom, both in its economic 74 00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:30,834 aspects as well as its political aspects, which I think is unique 75 00:03:30,834 --> 00:03:33,267 in the world -- certainly in combination with the other 76 00:03:33,267 --> 00:03:34,267 three. 77 00:03:34,267 --> 00:03:36,367 You see, in Britain we did invent representative 78 00:03:36,367 --> 00:03:40,267 institutions, and we were the first to operate a free-market 79 00:03:40,267 --> 00:03:41,267 economy. 80 00:03:41,267 --> 00:03:43,901 But those things have never been articles of faith with us. 81 00:03:43,901 --> 00:03:46,901 We've also had a very strong conservative tradition. 82 00:03:46,901 --> 00:03:49,634 Now, the United States-- people-- CHARLIE ROSE: That's 83 00:03:49,634 --> 00:03:51,167 conservative or authoritarian? 84 00:03:51,167 --> 00:03:53,601 Well, conservative, but with a taint 85 00:03:53,601 --> 00:03:55,300 of authoritarianism about it. 86 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:56,300 We have that, too. 87 00:03:56,300 --> 00:03:57,300 We're more of a mixture. 88 00:03:57,300 --> 00:03:59,434 Whereas you have always put liberty first. 89 00:03:59,434 --> 00:04:02,467 You've said, ``Give me liberty or give me death.'' And that's 90 00:04:02,467 --> 00:04:06,467 very important particularly in the economic field. 91 00:04:06,467 --> 00:04:10,300 You have a degree of freedom in the way you run economic things 92 00:04:10,300 --> 00:04:12,300 here which we've never had in Britain. 93 00:04:12,300 --> 00:04:16,334 Is it that-- you know, how many times have been 94 00:04:16,334 --> 00:04:17,334 asked this? 95 00:04:17,334 --> 00:04:19,334 Is it like-- a little bit like de Tocqueville? 96 00:04:19,334 --> 00:04:21,367 We need somebody from across the ocean to come explain who we 97 00:04:21,367 --> 00:04:22,000 are? 98 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,567 Well, I would be very hesitant to try and explain 99 00:04:26,567 --> 00:04:28,734 who you are. 100 00:04:28,734 --> 00:04:31,100 I don't think that is my job. 101 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:35,534 What I do try and do is to help to restore American confidence 102 00:04:35,534 --> 00:04:39,234 in itself -- the confidence of the American people in their 103 00:04:39,234 --> 00:04:41,934 role and in their destiny. 104 00:04:41,934 --> 00:04:45,000 What makes you think we've lost it? 105 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,067 Well, I don't think you have lost it, but I 106 00:04:49,067 --> 00:04:53,133 think you came very close to losing it in the 1970s, which 107 00:04:53,133 --> 00:04:56,868 was a period of great depression in American affairs with the 108 00:04:56,868 --> 00:05:00,300 Vietnam War, Watergate business, erosion of the powers of the 109 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:01,634 presidency and so on. 110 00:05:01,634 --> 00:05:05,033 And then in the 1980s you began to restore that. 111 00:05:05,033 --> 00:05:07,067 And it's now going strong again. 112 00:05:07,067 --> 00:05:10,801 I think Americans are a-- beginning to be once more a 113 00:05:10,801 --> 00:05:11,834 good, self-confident people. 114 00:05:11,834 --> 00:05:12,834 Yeah. 115 00:05:12,834 --> 00:05:17,400 But I thought my book might help a little by 116 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,300 explaining that America is basically a success story -- the 117 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,534 story of the American people is a success story and I think it's 118 00:05:24,534 --> 00:05:26,801 important that Americans should appreciate that. 119 00:05:26,801 --> 00:05:29,033 That we're-- but it seems to me it's more 120 00:05:29,033 --> 00:05:31,834 important to understand who we are and what shaped us than the 121 00:05:31,834 --> 00:05:33,868 fact that we simply are a success story. 122 00:05:33,868 --> 00:05:37,067 I mean, why is it so important to know we're a success story? 123 00:05:37,067 --> 00:05:40,334 I mean, it's apparent that we're a success story, isn't it? 124 00:05:40,334 --> 00:05:43,400 When you look at where we are in the world in comparison 125 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:44,667 to the rest of the world? 126 00:05:44,667 --> 00:05:49,968 I'm not talking just about a material success 127 00:05:49,968 --> 00:05:50,968 story. 128 00:05:50,968 --> 00:05:51,968 Nor am I. 129 00:05:51,968 --> 00:05:53,901 Look at our values. 130 00:05:53,901 --> 00:05:58,400 And, when you saw the fall of the Iron Curtain and you saw 131 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,701 what the aspirants to a new government looked to, they 132 00:06:01,701 --> 00:06:03,000 looked to our values. 133 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,334 Well, yes. 134 00:06:04,334 --> 00:06:07,968 But I am also accustomed to reading the American media, and 135 00:06:07,968 --> 00:06:11,267 it often surprises me the extent to which Americans doubt 136 00:06:11,267 --> 00:06:13,267 themselves and their hypercritical attitudes towards 137 00:06:13,267 --> 00:06:14,267 themselves. 138 00:06:14,267 --> 00:06:18,567 I feel that during my lifetime the world has own America a 139 00:06:18,567 --> 00:06:20,467 great debt. 140 00:06:20,467 --> 00:06:24,000 I-- my mind-- my memory goes back to Marshall aid and the 141 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,000 Second World War and how you helped us then. 142 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,200 And all during the long struggles of the Cold War it was 143 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,267 to America that we looked for our basic security and 144 00:06:32,267 --> 00:06:33,267 protection. 145 00:06:33,267 --> 00:06:37,100 And the world as a whole owed that security and protection to 146 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:42,701 America, so I want to pay my own little tribute to that by 147 00:06:42,701 --> 00:06:46,267 writing a book about America, which shows America not just as 148 00:06:46,267 --> 00:06:49,968 a materialistic success story but as a moral success story. 149 00:06:49,968 --> 00:06:52,167 Do you think the world looks to us today? 150 00:06:52,167 --> 00:06:54,067 I think they do. 151 00:06:54,067 --> 00:06:57,100 They do-- CHARLIE ROSE: Even more so because of-- PAUL 152 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:00,267 I think they do when they're frightened. 153 00:07:00,267 --> 00:07:04,167 It's rather like they often say that people who are exposed to 154 00:07:04,167 --> 00:07:08,868 danger tend to believe in God, and that no man in a storm is 155 00:07:08,868 --> 00:07:11,234 ever an atheist when he's at sea. 156 00:07:11,234 --> 00:07:12,968 Or a foxhole. 157 00:07:12,968 --> 00:07:13,968 Quite. 158 00:07:13,968 --> 00:07:18,334 And I think it's the same with the world and the United States. 159 00:07:18,334 --> 00:07:21,367 People love to permit themselves the luxury of criticizing 160 00:07:21,367 --> 00:07:24,067 America night and day all 'round the clock. 161 00:07:24,067 --> 00:07:27,434 But, when the chips are down, when danger emerges, when 162 00:07:27,434 --> 00:07:30,801 they're a bit scared for their safety and freedom and 163 00:07:30,801 --> 00:07:34,200 independence, then they're very glad that Uncle Sam is there. 164 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,567 Do you think Europe wants America to lead? 165 00:07:37,567 --> 00:07:39,934 And is waiting for America to lead? 166 00:07:39,934 --> 00:07:41,934 I think of Bosnia for one. 167 00:07:41,934 --> 00:07:46,067 You know, it was only after the administration in a sense said, 168 00:07:46,067 --> 00:07:50,601 ``We've gotta do something; we can't let this drift'' and took 169 00:07:50,601 --> 00:07:54,067 a leadership role, that you began to have the Dayton Accord. 170 00:07:54,067 --> 00:07:57,033 And, you know, we've got other problems today but you began to 171 00:07:57,033 --> 00:07:59,567 have a stop to the killing. 172 00:07:59,567 --> 00:08:01,267 That's true. 173 00:08:01,267 --> 00:08:04,501 And I-- two weeks ago I made a tour of our installations in 174 00:08:04,501 --> 00:08:05,501 Bosnia. 175 00:08:05,501 --> 00:08:07,501 And, thanks to American leadership, thanks also I think 176 00:08:07,501 --> 00:08:11,767 I may fairly claim to British support for American leadership, 177 00:08:11,767 --> 00:08:15,167 we now have 100 percent compliance of all our demands 178 00:08:15,167 --> 00:08:16,501 from these rival warlords. 179 00:08:16,501 --> 00:08:19,601 The situation is-- has been steadied and remedied and is in 180 00:08:19,601 --> 00:08:21,033 the process of being solved. 181 00:08:21,033 --> 00:08:24,167 So, that is what happens when America is prepared to exercise 182 00:08:24,167 --> 00:08:25,167 leadership. 183 00:08:25,167 --> 00:08:27,534 And we're very grateful for it because-- CHARLIE ROSE: Do you 184 00:08:27,534 --> 00:08:30,634 think we're gonna have to-- PAUL JOHNSON: --so far Europe has 185 00:08:30,634 --> 00:08:33,767 not been able to get its act together and provide that 186 00:08:33,767 --> 00:08:34,767 leadership. 187 00:08:34,767 --> 00:08:36,767 We have to look to America for it. 188 00:08:36,767 --> 00:08:39,701 Do you think the United States was right in terms 189 00:08:39,701 --> 00:08:42,801 of being prepared to strike Iraq if the secretary-general had not 190 00:08:42,801 --> 00:08:45,901 been able to reach an accord-- PAUL JOHNSON: Oh, no question. 191 00:08:45,901 --> 00:08:48,167 It's the same principle involved as in Bosnia. 192 00:08:48,167 --> 00:08:50,968 In Bosnia we show these warlords the weapons we've got. 193 00:08:50,968 --> 00:08:54,701 And we even show them at a weapons practice so they can see 194 00:08:54,701 --> 00:08:56,667 our rate of fire and so forth. 195 00:08:56,667 --> 00:08:59,634 And that puts the fear of God into them. 196 00:08:59,634 --> 00:09:01,767 And that's how we get 100 percent compliance. 197 00:09:01,767 --> 00:09:04,868 Now, sooner or later that same principle has to be applied to 198 00:09:04,868 --> 00:09:08,801 Saddam Hussein and the penny is going to drop and he is going to 199 00:09:08,801 --> 00:09:10,801 give 100 percent compliance himself. 200 00:09:10,801 --> 00:09:12,801 We need a bit of patience, that's all. 201 00:09:12,801 --> 00:09:15,033 He is gonna give 100 percent compliance? 202 00:09:15,033 --> 00:09:16,734 I think so, yes. 203 00:09:16,734 --> 00:09:19,667 Why do you-- why are you optimistic? 204 00:09:19,667 --> 00:09:22,901 Well, because these warlords in Bosnia are 205 00:09:22,901 --> 00:09:26,868 just as wicked men in their own way as Saddam Hussein, but they 206 00:09:26,868 --> 00:09:29,200 have a basic sense of realism, too. 207 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,367 And I believe Saddam Hussein has, too. 208 00:09:31,367 --> 00:09:34,334 And he is going to realize eventually that he is not going 209 00:09:34,334 --> 00:09:38,033 to stay in power and probably not going to retain his life 210 00:09:38,033 --> 00:09:40,601 until he gives the United Nations compliance. 211 00:09:40,601 --> 00:09:44,801 Others will argue that it is not the nature of the 212 00:09:44,801 --> 00:09:49,300 man by definition of what he has done-- rationality may not be 213 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:50,300 his strongest suit. 214 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:52,601 Of course, you can argue that the fact that he made a 215 00:09:52,601 --> 00:09:55,100 settlement with the secretary-general suggests 216 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:56,100 otherwise. 217 00:09:56,100 --> 00:09:58,100 Yes, well, I mean, talking -- the other night 218 00:09:58,100 --> 00:10:00,234 -- to Kofi Annan-- CHARLIE ROSE: Right. 219 00:10:00,234 --> 00:10:02,868 --who spent a long time with him. 220 00:10:02,868 --> 00:10:04,868 He said he's a very rational man indeed. 221 00:10:04,868 --> 00:10:06,868 What else did he say about him? 222 00:10:06,868 --> 00:10:08,834 He said he was a wicked man. 223 00:10:08,834 --> 00:10:10,834 Rational, but wicked. 224 00:10:10,834 --> 00:10:12,834 A wicked man can be rational. 225 00:10:12,834 --> 00:10:14,834 Does he trust him? 226 00:10:14,834 --> 00:10:15,834 No. 227 00:10:15,834 --> 00:10:17,834 Does he think that he will keep the accord? 228 00:10:17,834 --> 00:10:19,834 You must ask him that. 229 00:10:19,834 --> 00:10:21,834 Well, I was at the same dinner, as you know. 230 00:10:21,834 --> 00:10:22,834 Yeah. 231 00:10:22,834 --> 00:10:26,067 Let me move to this book in terms of what you 232 00:10:26,067 --> 00:10:27,067 have written. 233 00:10:27,067 --> 00:10:29,067 Why did you start when you started? 234 00:10:29,067 --> 00:10:31,067 You didn't give a lot of emphasis to Christopher 235 00:10:31,067 --> 00:10:32,067 Columbus. 236 00:10:32,067 --> 00:10:36,000 No, I-- to be honest I like to write these big 237 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,300 books in such a way that they are as readable as possible. 238 00:10:40,300 --> 00:10:44,033 Now, that means you must give detail because it's detail that 239 00:10:44,033 --> 00:10:45,601 makes for readability. 240 00:10:45,601 --> 00:10:50,100 That mean, if I'm dealing with 400 years of American history I 241 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:53,501 am in the region of a 900-page book already. 242 00:10:53,501 --> 00:10:54,501 Right. 243 00:10:54,501 --> 00:10:56,601 So, I don't want to go too much into the 16th 244 00:10:56,601 --> 00:10:57,601 century. 245 00:10:57,601 --> 00:11:00,634 So, I have to assume that is outside the scope of the book, 246 00:11:00,634 --> 00:11:04,801 particularly since I wanted to go right up to 1996, '97. 247 00:11:04,801 --> 00:11:07,400 Why is Sir Walter Raleigh so important in your 248 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:08,400 judgment? 249 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,400 Well, Sir Walter Raleigh was important partly 250 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,701 because he led the way. 251 00:11:12,701 --> 00:11:14,067 He was an enthusiast. 252 00:11:14,067 --> 00:11:15,834 He was a man of action. 253 00:11:15,834 --> 00:11:17,300 He inspired it. 254 00:11:17,300 --> 00:11:21,701 But he also showed the wrong way to do it. 255 00:11:21,701 --> 00:11:25,834 What was wrong with his colony of Roanoke and the reason why it 256 00:11:25,834 --> 00:11:29,801 failed-- the basic reason why it failed, I think, was because it 257 00:11:29,801 --> 00:11:33,067 didn't have a strong religious element. 258 00:11:33,067 --> 00:11:36,267 Sir Walter Raleigh was a great man, but by the standards of his 259 00:11:36,267 --> 00:11:37,601 time he was an atheist. 260 00:11:37,601 --> 00:11:39,601 He was sometimes accused of atheism. 261 00:11:39,601 --> 00:11:43,934 And he didn't include this idealistic element of religion 262 00:11:43,934 --> 00:11:44,934 in his settlement. 263 00:11:44,934 --> 00:11:49,367 His settlement was there to get rich, to get gold, to get rich. 264 00:11:49,367 --> 00:11:53,400 And it lacked-- so it has the materialistic incentive, but it 265 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,400 lacked the idealistic incentive. 266 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,667 Now, early in the next century, the two settlements of Virginia 267 00:11:59,667 --> 00:12:04,033 and of Massachusetts, they both had this idealistic element, 268 00:12:04,033 --> 00:12:06,467 too, particularly in Massachusetts. 269 00:12:06,467 --> 00:12:09,901 And that's why they succeeded where Raleigh had failed. 270 00:12:09,901 --> 00:12:15,901 The founding fathers -- how do you explain 271 00:12:15,901 --> 00:12:22,434 such an apparently gifted group of people coming together to 272 00:12:22,434 --> 00:12:23,501 fashion a nation? 273 00:12:23,501 --> 00:12:26,901 I can't explain it except by saying it's a 274 00:12:26,901 --> 00:12:28,601 dispensation of Providence. 275 00:12:28,601 --> 00:12:33,067 As I say in the book, I don't think ever in human history have 276 00:12:33,067 --> 00:12:38,133 such an able, yet also very unequal and disparate, group of 277 00:12:38,133 --> 00:12:41,267 men come together for a single purpose. 278 00:12:41,267 --> 00:12:43,734 It is a very remarkable thing. 279 00:12:43,734 --> 00:12:46,968 And, the more you study the lives these men and the more you 280 00:12:46,968 --> 00:12:50,434 recognize the real differences between them, the more 281 00:12:50,434 --> 00:12:52,868 surprising it is that they were able to get on together. 282 00:12:52,868 --> 00:12:56,801 And, as I say, I think there was a certain dispensation of 283 00:12:56,801 --> 00:13:00,634 Providence there, though I also think that the great figure of 284 00:13:00,634 --> 00:13:03,434 Washington in the background helped a lot. 285 00:13:03,434 --> 00:13:05,901 But all the feuds between Jefferson and Adams, who 286 00:13:05,901 --> 00:13:10,868 didn't speak for years; Burr and Hamilton we know about; and 287 00:13:10,868 --> 00:13:13,434 other-- PAUL JOHNSON: Well, I think probably the most 288 00:13:13,434 --> 00:13:18,200 interesting disparity is between Jefferson and Alexander 289 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,701 Hamilton. 290 00:13:19,701 --> 00:13:20,767 Right. 291 00:13:20,767 --> 00:13:24,033 And I'm sometimes asked, ``If you had to have one 292 00:13:24,033 --> 00:13:28,033 or the other or supposing America had had to choose 293 00:13:28,033 --> 00:13:33,167 ' And I also-- and I always answer, ``You can't answer that 294 00:13:33,167 --> 00:13:34,200 question. 295 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,200 The fact is they had both, and they needed both. 296 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:37,434 They needed Jefferson to supply that element of philosophical 297 00:13:37,434 --> 00:13:41,901 idealism expressed the Declaration of Independence and 298 00:13:41,901 --> 00:13:43,200 to help with the Constitution and all that side of the 299 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,200 creation of America. 300 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,200 But we also needed Alexander Hamilton to do something which 301 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,567 was essential for the success of the Republic, namely to place 302 00:13:49,567 --> 00:13:51,901 America on the basis of sound finance and sound economics.'' 303 00:13:51,901 --> 00:13:53,901 Because without that the other wouldn't have succeeded. 304 00:13:53,901 --> 00:13:55,901 Without the idealism, the materialism wouldn't have 305 00:13:55,901 --> 00:13:57,901 succeeded. 306 00:13:57,901 --> 00:13:59,901 You needed them both. 307 00:13:59,901 --> 00:14:02,868 Of all those men, who is it that you admire the 308 00:14:02,868 --> 00:14:04,868 most. 309 00:14:04,868 --> 00:14:06,868 I mean, you may have answered the question with your previous 310 00:14:06,868 --> 00:14:09,100 answer, but-- is there one that, for you-- Is it Franklin, for 311 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:11,100 example? 312 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:13,100 I certainly admire Franklin, and I find him 313 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:15,133 an endless source of entertainment. 314 00:14:15,133 --> 00:14:17,767 I am fascinated by Jefferson and curious discrepancies in his 315 00:14:17,767 --> 00:14:19,767 character, the conflict within him. 316 00:14:19,767 --> 00:14:21,968 I have a lot about him there. 317 00:14:21,968 --> 00:14:24,901 He absolutely fascinates me, particularly since you can see 318 00:14:24,901 --> 00:14:27,767 it all expressed in his own house, which he designed and 319 00:14:27,767 --> 00:14:29,767 built-- CHARLIE ROSE: Right. 320 00:14:29,767 --> 00:14:31,767 --which I describe there. 321 00:14:31,767 --> 00:14:34,300 But I think, if I had to choose one, I would pick Washington 322 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:38,234 because, although Washington might strike one as a rather 323 00:14:38,234 --> 00:14:42,601 dull man -- he didn't have much table talk; he didn't have any 324 00:14:42,601 --> 00:14:45,968 of the soft talk or the small talk; he wasn't man who you 325 00:14:45,968 --> 00:14:49,534 would particularly pick to go out to dinner with if you had 326 00:14:49,534 --> 00:14:53,634 the choice of Jefferson or even Hamilton -- but he had this 327 00:14:53,634 --> 00:14:56,567 extraordinary gravitas. 328 00:14:56,567 --> 00:14:59,567 He was able to keep an army together and a government 329 00:14:59,567 --> 00:15:03,133 together through a very long civil war, the real civil war-- 330 00:15:03,133 --> 00:15:08,667 and then, on top of that, he was able to be president-- the first 331 00:15:08,667 --> 00:15:14,901 president to serve two terms and throughout-- and to create and 332 00:15:14,901 --> 00:15:17,634 fashion a new republic -- I don't think anyone else could 333 00:15:17,634 --> 00:15:19,634 have done it so well. 334 00:15:19,634 --> 00:15:25,033 And all those time-- both as general and as president, to 335 00:15:25,033 --> 00:15:29,133 persuade his fellow countrymen that he was above party and 336 00:15:29,133 --> 00:15:32,467 above partisanship and that he had nothing but the good of the 337 00:15:32,467 --> 00:15:34,734 country at heart. 338 00:15:34,734 --> 00:15:36,734 He was the most-- PAUL JOHNSON: That's an 339 00:15:36,734 --> 00:15:38,734 achievement. 340 00:15:38,734 --> 00:15:40,734 He was the most admired of the founding fathers? 341 00:15:40,734 --> 00:15:42,734 He is by me. 342 00:15:42,734 --> 00:15:44,734 And one of the interesting things about Washington -- I 343 00:15:44,734 --> 00:15:47,567 usedn't to take this view but the more I read about his life 344 00:15:47,567 --> 00:15:50,767 and look at this writing, documents connected with him the 345 00:15:50,767 --> 00:15:53,701 more I come to admire him. 346 00:15:53,701 --> 00:15:57,367 The Civil War was the great event in this nation's 347 00:15:57,367 --> 00:15:59,367 history. 348 00:15:59,367 --> 00:16:04,701 The Civil War was the expiation of the organic sin 349 00:16:04,701 --> 00:16:06,701 of slavery. 350 00:16:06,701 --> 00:16:10,667 Slavery was something which the American colonies didn't need to 351 00:16:10,667 --> 00:16:11,667 adopt. 352 00:16:11,667 --> 00:16:15,567 They did adopt it because it was the easy way out. 353 00:16:15,567 --> 00:16:18,634 And, my goodness, America has paid for that. 354 00:16:18,634 --> 00:16:22,033 And in particular the Civil War, one of the most horrific civil 355 00:16:22,033 --> 00:16:26,367 wars of all time with terrific loss of life, immense damage to 356 00:16:26,367 --> 00:16:30,801 property, the whole of the old society of the South destroyed, 357 00:16:30,801 --> 00:16:34,033 that was the price that had to be paid for that organic sin. 358 00:16:34,033 --> 00:16:38,968 But it was expiated, and I don't think-- I think Americans 359 00:16:38,968 --> 00:16:42,934 are now wrong if they still continue to feel guilt about 360 00:16:42,934 --> 00:16:43,934 slavery. 361 00:16:43,934 --> 00:16:45,934 Couple of presidents, too. 362 00:16:45,934 --> 00:16:47,934 Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt. 363 00:16:47,934 --> 00:16:48,934 Ah. 364 00:16:48,934 --> 00:16:51,968 Now, this is a way I always judge Americans. 365 00:16:51,968 --> 00:16:55,534 I say to them, ``Which do you prefer -- Theodore Roosevelt or 366 00:16:55,534 --> 00:16:57,100 Franklin Roosevelt?' 367 00:16:57,100 --> 00:16:59,601 ' And, according to their answer, I judge them. 368 00:16:59,601 --> 00:17:02,267 I'm very much a Theodore man, myself. 369 00:17:02,267 --> 00:17:06,267 The more I read about Theodore Roosevelt -- it's like 370 00:17:06,267 --> 00:17:08,567 Washington, really, -- the more I admire him. 371 00:17:08,567 --> 00:17:10,834 In fact, I wouldn't mind writing a life of him except there's 372 00:17:10,834 --> 00:17:13,100 just been published a very good one. 373 00:17:13,100 --> 00:17:15,200 I find him endlessly fascinating. 374 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,200 Several good ones. 375 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,200 Yeah, but this-- I'm talking about one that's 376 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:20,200 just come out. 377 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,734 Franklin Roosevelt, I know, it's no use arguing with an 378 00:17:24,734 --> 00:17:28,834 American who thinks Franklin Roosevelt is a hero because it's 379 00:17:28,834 --> 00:17:31,067 like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. 380 00:17:31,067 --> 00:17:33,000 This is an article of faith. 381 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:34,968 So, I don't argue with them any more. 382 00:17:34,968 --> 00:17:36,367 I just pass on to other things. 383 00:17:36,367 --> 00:17:40,133 I think he was a flawed creature, and I think he was a 384 00:17:40,133 --> 00:17:44,133 great showman with a wonderful front and terrific genius for 385 00:17:44,133 --> 00:17:47,968 public relations whose actual achievement, when you look at 386 00:17:47,968 --> 00:17:51,701 them in great detail, are not so spectacular. 387 00:17:51,701 --> 00:17:53,701 Nonetheless-- CHARLIE ROSE: The World War II? 388 00:17:53,701 --> 00:17:55,701 --I don't want to criticize-- CHARLIE ROSE: 389 00:17:55,701 --> 00:17:57,667 Doesn't that mean any-- PAUL JOHNSON: I don't want to 390 00:17:57,667 --> 00:18:00,167 criticize him too much because I'm old enough to remember 1941 391 00:18:00,167 --> 00:18:02,234 when America came into the war. 392 00:18:02,234 --> 00:18:04,634 We were pretty desperate, then, you know. 393 00:18:04,634 --> 00:18:06,000 We were virtually alone. 394 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,033 And the war was going badly. 395 00:18:08,033 --> 00:18:12,133 But, once I heard Roosevelt's broadcast -- I was only a child, 396 00:18:12,133 --> 00:18:16,300 10 or so -- once I heard his broadcast and that wonderfully 397 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:20,934 reassuring voice of his, I knew we were going to win the war. 398 00:18:20,934 --> 00:18:24,234 So, I will be eternally grateful to Roosevelt for that reason. 399 00:18:24,234 --> 00:18:27,734 Well, then-- I recently did a televised 400 00:18:27,734 --> 00:18:31,000 discussion about who was the greatest person of the century 401 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:32,601 in politics. 402 00:18:32,601 --> 00:18:36,234 Roosevelt won that contest. 403 00:18:36,234 --> 00:18:39,901 Roosevelt -- Teddy -- got some votes. 404 00:18:39,901 --> 00:18:41,067 Others got some votes. 405 00:18:41,067 --> 00:18:43,067 Martin Luther King got some votes. 406 00:18:43,067 --> 00:18:45,934 But it was Franklin Delano Roosevelt because of the 407 00:18:45,934 --> 00:18:48,467 Depression and the war that garnered more support. 408 00:18:48,467 --> 00:18:50,534 Well, there you are. 409 00:18:50,534 --> 00:18:54,601 I mean, from time to time they poll two or three hundred 410 00:18:54,601 --> 00:18:57,968 American historians and the same-- you get the same results. 411 00:18:57,968 --> 00:19:00,000 I don't agree with those results. 412 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,400 Now, who would you pick? 413 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,367 Would you pick Teddy Roosevelt? 414 00:19:04,367 --> 00:19:05,367 Or someone else? 415 00:19:05,367 --> 00:19:07,801 Teddy Roosevelt is my favorite American 416 00:19:07,801 --> 00:19:08,801 president. 417 00:19:08,801 --> 00:19:09,801 Because? 418 00:19:09,801 --> 00:19:13,234 Because I think he had a kind of generosity of 419 00:19:13,234 --> 00:19:17,067 spirit and a truthfulness and an honesty which is quite rare in 420 00:19:17,067 --> 00:19:19,767 politics, and terrific energy, too. 421 00:19:19,767 --> 00:19:21,567 And great zest for life. 422 00:19:21,567 --> 00:19:23,067 I just like him. 423 00:19:23,067 --> 00:19:27,834 I'm not sure he was the best president, and of course he made 424 00:19:27,834 --> 00:19:28,334 a number errors. 425 00:19:28,334 --> 00:19:32,868 But, of my lifetime, I think the best presidents have been 426 00:19:32,868 --> 00:19:36,701 Dwight Eisenhower, whom I remember very well in the '50s, 427 00:19:36,701 --> 00:19:38,801 and Ronald Reagan. 428 00:19:38,801 --> 00:19:42,834 Now, I don't think a committee of 200 American historians would 429 00:19:42,834 --> 00:19:46,534 agree with that judgment, but that is-- CHARLIE ROSE: You 430 00:19:46,534 --> 00:19:50,567 think that is because American historians are-- are -- what? 431 00:19:50,567 --> 00:19:52,567 -- pro-liberal or Democratic or what? 432 00:19:52,567 --> 00:19:55,734 I think they tend to be liberal. 433 00:19:55,734 --> 00:19:57,601 They tend to be Democratic. 434 00:19:57,601 --> 00:20:00,200 And I've just mentioned two Republican presidents. 435 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,234 But I think it's probably that Eisenhower did not appeal to 436 00:20:04,234 --> 00:20:05,234 intellectuals. 437 00:20:05,234 --> 00:20:07,567 Intellectuals rather looked down their noses on them. 438 00:20:07,567 --> 00:20:11,567 And professors -- right or left, or liberal or conservative -- do 439 00:20:11,567 --> 00:20:12,968 tend to be intellectuals. 440 00:20:12,968 --> 00:20:15,367 And I think that's probably the basic reason. 441 00:20:15,367 --> 00:20:18,467 There seems to be some appreciation of Reagan. 442 00:20:18,467 --> 00:20:22,000 Perhaps it has to do with level of expectation or whatever-- 443 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:26,367 Reagan seems to have more appreciation among his critics 444 00:20:26,367 --> 00:20:27,367 than you might have imagined. 445 00:20:27,367 --> 00:20:29,367 Yes, and it's growing. 446 00:20:29,367 --> 00:20:31,400 And it's growing. 447 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,400 And I think his reputation will grow. 448 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,400 One of the reasons I like him so much was that he made me 449 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:36,400 laugh. 450 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,400 He made you laugh? 451 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,567 Well, yes. 452 00:20:39,567 --> 00:20:42,000 I mean, he said once-- he said, ``Oh, I'm not too worried about 453 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:43,000 the deficit. 454 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,701 It's big enough to take care of itself.'' Well, it did, you 455 00:20:46,701 --> 00:20:47,701 see. 456 00:20:47,701 --> 00:20:50,400 And the wonderful thing about Reagan was that his jokes 457 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,701 usually had conveyed a message of truth, and now we know the 458 00:20:53,701 --> 00:20:55,701 deficit did take care of itself. 459 00:20:55,701 --> 00:20:59,567 What do you think of William Jefferson Clinton? 460 00:20:59,567 --> 00:21:03,267 Well, Mr. Clinton has not completed his period of 461 00:21:03,267 --> 00:21:04,300 office. 462 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,434 I've described some of his activities in my book in 463 00:21:07,434 --> 00:21:11,868 considerable detail, but I haven't felt it necessary to 464 00:21:11,868 --> 00:21:15,534 make a verdict on his administration of this country 465 00:21:15,534 --> 00:21:17,634 because it's not yet concluded. 466 00:21:17,634 --> 00:21:19,634 But if-- and, as I hope-- CHARLIE ROSE: Are you just 467 00:21:19,634 --> 00:21:22,067 avoiding-- PAUL JOHNSON: --I update the book in a couple of 468 00:21:22,067 --> 00:21:24,067 years time-- CHARLIE ROSE: Yes. 469 00:21:24,067 --> 00:21:26,067 --that'll be a different matter. 470 00:21:26,067 --> 00:21:28,067 But, I mean, are you just being diplomatic? 471 00:21:28,067 --> 00:21:30,234 Because, I mean, my impression is that you are a 472 00:21:30,234 --> 00:21:31,234 critic of the president. 473 00:21:31,234 --> 00:21:33,234 I am a critic of the president. 474 00:21:33,234 --> 00:21:34,234 Yes. 475 00:21:34,234 --> 00:21:36,234 But are you just being kind to him on this 476 00:21:36,234 --> 00:21:37,234 program or what? 477 00:21:37,234 --> 00:21:39,267 No, I'm being diplomatic on this program. 478 00:21:39,267 --> 00:21:40,267 It's all right. 479 00:21:40,267 --> 00:21:42,267 Two other issue that are important. 480 00:21:42,267 --> 00:21:44,267 One -- the impact and the role of religion in the development 481 00:21:44,267 --> 00:21:46,267 of the American character and the American nation -- and 482 00:21:46,267 --> 00:21:50,267 second -- the impact of media on America and its future. 483 00:21:50,267 --> 00:21:54,334 Well, the first one is very important indeed. 484 00:21:54,334 --> 00:22:06,734 I think one of the points I make again and again in my book 485 00:22:06,734 --> 00:22:08,734 is that America is a religious country. 486 00:22:08,734 --> 00:22:10,767 It was founded for religious purposes. 487 00:22:10,767 --> 00:22:13,067 It's-- the people-- the original settlers wanted to build a 488 00:22:13,067 --> 00:22:16,100 ``city on the hill'' for the whole of Christendom and outside 489 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,100 Christendom to watch and observe and follow. 490 00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:21,601 That is what America is about and to a very great extent it 491 00:22:21,601 --> 00:22:23,601 has retained its primary religious impulse. 492 00:22:23,601 --> 00:22:26,367 It is still, in my experience, the most religious country in 493 00:22:26,367 --> 00:22:27,367 the world. 494 00:22:27,367 --> 00:22:29,901 It's the only country-- CHARLIE ROSE: More so than-- I mean, 495 00:22:29,901 --> 00:22:33,267 there's some theologies-- theocracies in the country-- yet 496 00:22:33,267 --> 00:22:35,267 you say America's the most religious. 497 00:22:35,267 --> 00:22:36,367 I find that. 498 00:22:36,367 --> 00:22:39,334 I find more religious people in America than anywhere else I 499 00:22:39,334 --> 00:22:40,334 travel. 500 00:22:40,334 --> 00:22:43,300 It's a curious thing 'cause it reminds me of my own Catholic 501 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:45,901 childhood before the war. 502 00:22:45,901 --> 00:22:50,734 When I'm in mid-America, quite often -- if I'm having a family 503 00:22:50,734 --> 00:22:55,100 dinner with a family -- the host or hostess says to me, ``Oh, 504 00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:58,467 Professor Johnson, would you care to ask a blessing before 505 00:22:58,467 --> 00:22:59,467 the meal?' 506 00:22:59,467 --> 00:23:03,534 ' Now, that saying grace before the meal, you don't get that any 507 00:23:03,534 --> 00:23:06,534 more, I think, in any country in the world. 508 00:23:06,534 --> 00:23:10,934 It used to be something I got in my childhood I never come 509 00:23:10,934 --> 00:23:13,968 across, except in America and quite widely in America. 510 00:23:13,968 --> 00:23:16,701 What about the role of the media in our future? 511 00:23:16,701 --> 00:23:21,567 Well, the media is the wonderful dragon of 512 00:23:21,567 --> 00:23:23,501 American life. 513 00:23:23,501 --> 00:23:28,000 I mean, it's-- it's-- or you might say it's both St. George 514 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,367 and the dragon. 515 00:23:29,367 --> 00:23:32,534 Originally newspapers were actually sponsored and 516 00:23:32,534 --> 00:23:36,534 subsidized by the state because they were seen part of the 517 00:23:36,534 --> 00:23:38,033 educational process. 518 00:23:38,033 --> 00:23:42,033 They were seen as a way in which enlightenment was spread, 519 00:23:42,033 --> 00:23:43,434 particularly at the frontier. 520 00:23:43,434 --> 00:23:48,367 And usually, when you got a new frontier settlement, the first 521 00:23:48,367 --> 00:23:51,133 thing they built was a church, but the second thing that opened 522 00:23:51,133 --> 00:23:53,801 -- even in a small community living in tents -- was a 523 00:23:53,801 --> 00:23:54,801 newspaper office. 524 00:23:54,801 --> 00:23:57,667 So, it was seen as a pioneer of progress. 525 00:23:57,667 --> 00:24:01,868 Now, that St. George has tended to get out of hand and transform 526 00:24:01,868 --> 00:24:03,067 itself into a dragon. 527 00:24:03,067 --> 00:24:06,334 And therefore we have to -- particularly in the television 528 00:24:06,334 --> 00:24:10,267 age -- we have to ensure that that dragon is retained under 529 00:24:10,267 --> 00:24:13,868 some form of control, which is very difficult in a country 530 00:24:13,868 --> 00:24:15,868 where you have the First Amendment. 531 00:24:15,868 --> 00:24:19,100 But, nevertheless, it's a task that has to be faced. 532 00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:22,701 So, ``not so fast in your criticism of President 533 00:24:22,701 --> 00:24:23,701 Clinton, media''? 534 00:24:23,701 --> 00:24:28,434 Well, I think the media has to report the news 535 00:24:28,434 --> 00:24:30,667 primarily, rather than comment on it. 536 00:24:30,667 --> 00:24:31,934 It can comment on it, too. 537 00:24:31,934 --> 00:24:34,033 And indeed it ought to comment on it. 538 00:24:34,033 --> 00:24:37,501 But reporting the news accurately is something which 539 00:24:37,501 --> 00:24:39,968 the media should always bear in mind. 540 00:24:39,968 --> 00:24:43,434 It should-- over every newspaper reporter's desk and 541 00:24:43,434 --> 00:24:45,868 over every television commentator's table there should 542 00:24:45,868 --> 00:24:51,400 be, ``Get the facts right; report the news straight.'' 543 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,934 Someone said the other day that commentary in 544 00:24:53,934 --> 00:24:56,167 America is in full bloom. 545 00:24:56,167 --> 00:24:59,200 Anywhere you look there's someone writing a column, 546 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,734 appearing on television, offering his or her opinion. 547 00:25:01,734 --> 00:25:05,167 Well, I think that's fine, but when I was a 548 00:25:05,167 --> 00:25:08,601 young reporter, nearly 50 years ago, I used to admire the 549 00:25:08,601 --> 00:25:12,934 American press particularly because they always kept news 550 00:25:12,934 --> 00:25:14,868 and comment separate. 551 00:25:14,868 --> 00:25:17,767 Now, what has been happening in recent decades, particularly in 552 00:25:17,767 --> 00:25:20,834 recent years, is that comment has been straying into the news 553 00:25:20,834 --> 00:25:21,834 columns. 554 00:25:21,834 --> 00:25:22,834 That's the danger. 555 00:25:22,834 --> 00:25:24,834 Two last questions. 556 00:25:24,834 --> 00:25:25,834 One -- Tony Blair. 557 00:25:25,834 --> 00:25:26,868 Do you like him? 558 00:25:26,868 --> 00:25:28,868 I like him very much. 559 00:25:28,868 --> 00:25:30,400 He's become a friend of mine. 560 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,434 I trust him. 561 00:25:31,434 --> 00:25:33,467 I hope he's going to be a success. 562 00:25:33,467 --> 00:25:35,534 I help him in any way I can, short of sacrificing my 563 00:25:35,534 --> 00:25:37,534 objective integrity as a reporter. 564 00:25:37,534 --> 00:25:38,534 I help him. 565 00:25:38,534 --> 00:25:40,534 I write his speeches occasionally. 566 00:25:40,534 --> 00:25:41,534 You do? 567 00:25:41,534 --> 00:25:43,534 I think he will be a-- CHARLIE ROSE: You do? 568 00:25:43,534 --> 00:25:44,534 Yes. 569 00:25:44,534 --> 00:25:46,534 You write speeches for him? 570 00:25:46,534 --> 00:25:47,734 Yes, yes, yes. 571 00:25:47,734 --> 00:25:48,734 Yes. 572 00:25:48,734 --> 00:25:49,734 As I did for Margaret Thatcher. 573 00:25:49,734 --> 00:25:51,934 Now, what does that do to your-- I mean, that 574 00:25:51,934 --> 00:25:53,901 would be blasphemous in America. 575 00:25:53,901 --> 00:25:57,701 No, because I see Tony Blair as the natural 576 00:25:57,701 --> 00:25:59,667 successor to Margaret Thatcher. 577 00:25:59,667 --> 00:26:02,367 She-- He's the good son she never had-- CHARLIE ROSE: Well, 578 00:26:02,367 --> 00:26:05,868 I-- I know-- you-- Conrad Black-- there was a dinner that 579 00:26:05,868 --> 00:26:08,567 Conrad Black gave that you were there, and Thatcher and Blair 580 00:26:08,567 --> 00:26:12,601 were there on the same-- and spoke at the same time. 581 00:26:12,601 --> 00:26:16,234 The interesting thing about it is that I've always wondered, 582 00:26:16,234 --> 00:26:18,067 ``Does she believe that?' 583 00:26:18,067 --> 00:26:19,167 ' PAUL JOHNSON: Yes. 584 00:26:19,167 --> 00:26:20,267 And she's delighted. 585 00:26:20,267 --> 00:26:23,067 She believes that Blair's the son she never-- PAUL 586 00:26:23,067 --> 00:26:24,067 No, no, no. 587 00:26:24,067 --> 00:26:26,067 She denies that, of course, very hotly. 588 00:26:26,067 --> 00:26:28,701 But she believes that Blair is her natural successor. 589 00:26:28,701 --> 00:26:29,701 Yes. 590 00:26:29,701 --> 00:26:31,701 Although she daren't say that openly in public. 591 00:26:31,701 --> 00:26:35,968 Newt Gingrich, your friend. 592 00:26:35,968 --> 00:26:38,467 If he ran for president, you'd be over here writing speeches 593 00:26:38,467 --> 00:26:39,467 for him. 594 00:26:39,467 --> 00:26:41,501 I would certainly do that if he wanted me. 595 00:26:41,501 --> 00:26:42,501 Yes. 596 00:26:42,501 --> 00:26:44,501 What is it about him that you admire? 597 00:26:44,501 --> 00:26:47,167 Well, he's a historian. 598 00:26:47,167 --> 00:26:51,334 He's a historian who tries to apply the lessons of history to 599 00:26:51,334 --> 00:26:52,868 contemporary life. 600 00:26:52,868 --> 00:26:57,334 But, quite simply, whenever I get together with him, I find we 601 00:26:57,334 --> 00:26:59,701 agree on all the salient things. 602 00:26:59,701 --> 00:27:02,601 He seems to me to have very sensible views. 603 00:27:02,601 --> 00:27:04,834 I like him, and I'll help him. 604 00:27:04,834 --> 00:27:06,834 There is in this book -- right under your name-- 605 00:27:06,834 --> 00:27:09,400 First the title, A History of the American People; then your 606 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,934 name, PAUL JOHNSON; then from Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, 607 00:27:12,934 --> 00:27:16,934 ``Be not a friend of greatness.'' Why? 608 00:27:16,934 --> 00:27:20,767 That is something which Americans should always 609 00:27:20,767 --> 00:27:22,567 bear in mind. 610 00:27:22,567 --> 00:27:27,367 Providence in its wisdom has given America the means of 611 00:27:27,367 --> 00:27:31,734 greatness -- a huge population, a very rich country, terrific 612 00:27:31,734 --> 00:27:35,968 expertise in all fields -- and this greatness has been trust 613 00:27:35,968 --> 00:27:39,601 upon them and they should accept it eagerly and make the most of 614 00:27:39,601 --> 00:27:41,701 it in the interests of the entire world. 615 00:27:41,701 --> 00:27:45,501 And my confidence is that, in the 21st century, that is 616 00:27:45,501 --> 00:27:48,100 exactly what the American people will do. 617 00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:50,100 PAUL JOHNSON, thank you for coming. 618 00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:51,100 A pleasure. 619 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:52,667 Thank you. 620 00:27:52,667 --> 00:27:54,067 And we thank you for joining us. 621 00:27:54,067 --> We'll see you tomorrow night. 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