1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,934 S1 Human Rights in China 2 00:00:01,934 --> 00:00:04,968 Wei Jingsheng is a leading Chinese dissident. 3 00:00:04,968 --> 00:00:08,000 He has been in prison for some 18 years. 4 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,067 TONG YEE is his former assistant, who is now in the 5 00:00:12,067 --> 00:00:15,467 United States living in New York City, teaching-- or taking 6 00:00:15,467 --> 00:00:18,467 courses at Columbia University from, among other things, former 7 00:00:18,467 --> 00:00:20,667 presidential adviser George Stephanopoulos. 8 00:00:20,667 --> 00:00:24,667 Yesterday she was in Washington talking to John Shattuck, who is 9 00:00:24,667 --> 00:00:28,133 assistant secretary of state for human rights and she was talking 10 00:00:28,133 --> 00:00:32,234 to him, hoping that the president will emphasize human 11 00:00:32,234 --> 00:00:38,267 rights when he meets with the children president, Jiang 12 00:00:38,267 --> 00:00:39,267 Zhemin, in the coming months. 13 00:00:39,267 --> 00:00:41,267 She's here with us this evening to talk about human rights 14 00:00:41,267 --> 00:00:46,267 because she has been there and because she knows what it is to 15 00:00:46,267 --> 00:00:48,100 suffer in China. 16 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:51,033 I am pleased to have her on this broadcast and to hear from her 17 00:00:51,033 --> 00:00:54,400 firsthand the message she sent to the president. 18 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:55,400 Welcome. 19 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,400 TONG YEE, Former Assistant to Wei Jingsheng: Thank you. 20 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,267 I'm very happy to have this opportunity to interview with-- 21 00:01:01,267 --> 00:01:02,968 have an interview with you. 22 00:01:02,968 --> 00:01:04,734 Thank you. 23 00:01:04,734 --> 00:01:09,167 Let me go back, before we talk about Washington, and talk about 24 00:01:09,167 --> 00:01:10,601 Beijing. 25 00:01:10,601 --> 00:01:12,300 You were under arrest? 26 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:13,300 Uh-huh. 27 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:14,300 For how long? 28 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:16,300 For two and a half years. 29 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:18,000 For doing what? 30 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:24,701 For my working with the most famous dissident in 31 00:01:24,701 --> 00:01:26,100 China, Wei Jingsheng. 32 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:27,400 Yes. 33 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:28,667 Yeah. 34 00:01:28,667 --> 00:01:31,234 And how were you treated in prison? 35 00:01:31,234 --> 00:01:36,334 Oh, it's-- it's incredible, you know-- 36 00:01:36,334 --> 00:01:42,868 unimaginable because after I was transferred from the detention 37 00:01:42,868 --> 00:01:46,701 center in Beijing to wuheng howeng, [sp? 38 00:01:46,701 --> 00:01:51,334 ] re-education through labor, I just-- I was just shocked 39 00:01:51,334 --> 00:01:55,667 because I had many, many friends before who had experience of 40 00:01:55,667 --> 00:02:00,968 imprisonment, but they never told me the conditions there 41 00:02:00,968 --> 00:02:03,801 were so harsh. 42 00:02:03,801 --> 00:02:08,901 For example, when I just arrived there, they forced all the 43 00:02:08,901 --> 00:02:18,067 detainees to work after hours, at night, until, you know, 44 00:02:18,067 --> 00:02:23,267 12:00-- at midnight, 12:00 o'clock, or even 1:00 A.M. 45 00:02:23,267 --> 00:02:25,067 o'clock. 46 00:02:25,067 --> 00:02:29,701 And each day they have a production quota to fulfill. 47 00:02:29,701 --> 00:02:34,133 If they didn't fulfill that quota, their sentence will be 48 00:02:34,133 --> 00:02:39,601 prolonged or either they make you pay a sum of money to buy 49 00:02:39,601 --> 00:02:40,834 themself out. 50 00:02:40,834 --> 00:02:44,801 Why did they release you and allow you to 51 00:02:44,801 --> 00:02:46,834 come to the United States? 52 00:02:46,834 --> 00:02:52,300 First of all, I finish all my sentence. 53 00:02:52,300 --> 00:02:56,400 My sentence term is two and a half years. 54 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:03,434 So last October, I finished it and I was allowed to go home. 55 00:03:03,434 --> 00:03:08,734 But after that, actually, I lived a life of internal exile. 56 00:03:08,734 --> 00:03:10,734 They-- CHARLIE ROSE: Internal exile? 57 00:03:10,734 --> 00:03:12,868 Internal exile, yeah. 58 00:03:12,868 --> 00:03:19,467 And they kept harassing me and they just didn't allow me to go 59 00:03:19,467 --> 00:03:21,434 around the whole country. 60 00:03:21,434 --> 00:03:29,701 Ten days after I was released, I went to Beijing and just when I 61 00:03:29,701 --> 00:03:34,934 got out of the train at 4:00 A.M., there's more than 30 62 00:03:34,934 --> 00:03:40,234 policemen grouped up and pick me away to another detention center 63 00:03:40,234 --> 00:03:43,968 again for shelter and the repatriation. 64 00:03:43,968 --> 00:03:50,267 There I stayed in even more-- even harsher conditions and for 65 00:03:50,267 --> 00:03:57,868 11 days and then they patriated me directly to Wuhan, my home 66 00:03:57,868 --> 00:03:58,868 town. 67 00:03:58,868 --> 00:04:02,100 So they just gave me a warning that the government didn't allow 68 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:05,133 me-- CHARLIE ROSE: Okay. 69 00:04:05,133 --> 00:04:08,868 --to have the freedom of travel. 70 00:04:08,868 --> 00:04:13,133 What do you think Wei Jingsheng's message would be 71 00:04:13,133 --> 00:04:17,534 to the president if he could speak to him directly about 72 00:04:17,534 --> 00:04:19,200 human rights in China? 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,200 And what would he prefer the president do vis-a-vis the 74 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,834 United States and China? 75 00:04:22,834 --> 00:04:32,767 Actually, his rearrest was closely associated 76 00:04:32,767 --> 00:04:36,667 with the meeting with John Shattuck, the assistant 77 00:04:36,667 --> 00:04:40,767 secretary of state-- CHARLIE ROSE: John Shattuck came to 78 00:04:40,767 --> 00:04:42,801 Beijing and-- TONG YEE: Yes. 79 00:04:42,801 --> 00:04:45,534 --he met with Wei Jingsheng. 80 00:04:45,534 --> 00:04:46,534 Yes. 81 00:04:46,534 --> 00:04:48,534 And in that meeting-- CHARLIE ROSE: And they threw him back 82 00:04:48,534 --> 00:04:49,534 in prison after that. 83 00:04:49,534 --> 00:04:50,534 Yeah. 84 00:04:50,534 --> 00:04:52,534 John Shattuck asked his opinion on human rights issues and also 85 00:04:52,534 --> 00:04:54,667 want him to send a message to president Clinton at that 86 00:04:54,667 --> 00:04:58,634 meeting and Wei just answered like that. 87 00:04:58,634 --> 00:05:00,167 The U.S. 88 00:05:00,167 --> 00:05:07,167 government should hold at least as strong as Chinese position on 89 00:05:07,167 --> 00:05:08,901 human rights issues. 90 00:05:08,901 --> 00:05:11,033 You should not step back. 91 00:05:11,033 --> 00:05:14,934 The argument made, as you know, by many 92 00:05:14,934 --> 00:05:21,701 people in the foreign policy galaxy is that you will get more 93 00:05:21,701 --> 00:05:28,234 progress with the Chinese if you do it by quiet diplomacy behind 94 00:05:28,234 --> 00:05:29,367 closed doors. 95 00:05:29,367 --> 00:05:36,501 But you could say that since 1994, after President 96 00:05:36,501 --> 00:05:39,133 Clinton made the division [? 97 00:05:39,133 --> 00:05:44,734 ] of the linking of MFN with human rights issue, the U.S. 98 00:05:44,734 --> 00:05:50,601 government didn't-- haven't won anything and the Chinese 99 00:05:50,601 --> 00:05:52,467 government won everything. 100 00:05:52,467 --> 00:05:57,300 They just able to do anything they want to do and even more 101 00:05:57,300 --> 00:05:59,934 harshly correct dissidents in China. 102 00:05:59,934 --> 00:06:06,968 You believe that those brave Chinese in prison 103 00:06:06,968 --> 00:06:10,200 because of dissident activities and because of what they write 104 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,501 and because of what they say about freedom and other issues, 105 00:06:15,501 --> 00:06:20,634 if they could influence the president, they would all have 106 00:06:20,634 --> 00:06:27,734 this country be tougher on China and withhold economic 107 00:06:27,734 --> 00:06:32,767 arrangements until China changed its policy on human rights. 108 00:06:32,767 --> 00:06:33,767 Yes. 109 00:06:33,767 --> 00:06:35,767 What makes you so sure? 110 00:06:35,767 --> 00:06:40,968 Because they experienced [unintelligible] 111 00:06:40,968 --> 00:06:41,968 like that. 112 00:06:41,968 --> 00:06:44,834 Since 1989-- you know, 1989 the Chinese government cracked down 113 00:06:44,834 --> 00:06:46,834 the Tiananmen Square and after that the international community 114 00:06:46,834 --> 00:06:48,801 criticized heavily on China's government's actions at that 115 00:06:48,801 --> 00:07:00,234 time and China's government afterward actually let out some 116 00:07:00,234 --> 00:07:07,667 leading prisoners out of prison. 117 00:07:07,667 --> 00:07:18,000 And so you can say international pressure actually worked and it 118 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,000 is still work-- CHARLIE ROSE: Yeah. 119 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,000 --if there is a real international pressure. 120 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,000 But it would look to me like-- I'm not trying to 121 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,601 argue a point of view, but I'm trying to get you to respond to 122 00:07:26,601 --> 00:07:28,067 one of the obvious questions. 123 00:07:28,067 --> 00:07:33,067 If Wei Jingsheng met with John Shattuck, human rights-- 124 00:07:33,067 --> 00:07:35,834 assistant secretary of state for human rights, and because of 125 00:07:35,834 --> 00:07:38,868 that meeting was thrown back in prison, it looks like they have 126 00:07:38,868 --> 00:07:44,334 -- the Chinese leadership -- no regard for American opinion. 127 00:07:44,334 --> 00:07:45,334 None. 128 00:07:45,334 --> 00:07:46,334 Yeah. 129 00:07:46,334 --> 00:07:47,334 Yeah. 130 00:07:47,334 --> 00:07:50,601 So-- CHARLIE ROSE: Because they almost gave it the back of their 131 00:07:50,601 --> 00:07:54,267 hand by saying, ``Just because a dissident talked to-- about 132 00:07:54,267 --> 00:07:56,968 human rights to your assistant secretary of state, we're going 133 00:07:56,968 --> 00:08:00,601 to throw him back in prison.'' TONG YEE: Uh-huh. 134 00:08:00,601 --> 00:08:05,200 But you know, after Wei Jingsheng was recaptured April 135 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:11,300 1st, they still didn't make the final decision on how to deal 136 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:16,167 with-- how to deal with him because-- I think because-- 137 00:08:16,167 --> 00:08:22,934 because President Clinton made the linking division and then 138 00:08:22,934 --> 00:08:25,601 another long-term sentences ensued. 139 00:08:25,601 --> 00:08:27,334 [? 140 00:08:27,334 --> 00:08:33,634 ] CHARLIE ROSE: What do you think would be the result if the 141 00:08:33,634 --> 00:08:37,267 president said to the president of China, Jiang Zhemin, ``I want 142 00:08:37,267 --> 00:08:44,534 you to release from prison Wei Jingsheng''? 143 00:08:44,534 --> 00:08:48,968 Do you think the Chinese would do it, if they made it important 144 00:08:48,968 --> 00:08:51,434 to them, he president made it important to him? 145 00:08:51,434 --> 00:08:52,834 Uh-huh. 146 00:08:52,834 --> 00:08:53,834 They will. 147 00:08:53,834 --> 00:08:55,868 They'll release him? 148 00:08:55,868 --> 00:08:56,868 Yes. 149 00:08:56,868 --> 00:08:59,067 They will make some concession to U.S. 150 00:08:59,067 --> 00:09:03,901 government if they really want have a normal Sino-U.S. 151 00:09:03,901 --> 00:09:04,901 relationship. 152 00:09:04,901 --> 00:09:06,901 Why is he so important? 153 00:09:06,901 --> 00:09:11,501 Because he is the most, you know, brave, 154 00:09:11,501 --> 00:09:18,033 courageous advocate of human rights activists among-- you 155 00:09:18,033 --> 00:09:23,667 know, he's the most famous person in China and he can push 156 00:09:23,667 --> 00:09:30,634 ahead many, many things toward democracy, toward more a more 157 00:09:30,634 --> 00:09:31,934 democratic country. 158 00:09:31,934 --> 00:09:33,901 What do you say to those people who just-- 159 00:09:33,901 --> 00:09:37,501 ``Look, if we-- if we do a lot of business with China, all 160 00:09:37,501 --> 00:09:41,801 those people going there to do business will have a positive 161 00:09:41,801 --> 00:09:44,000 impact and eventually China will change''? 162 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:50,033 But there's also another example of, you know, 163 00:09:50,033 --> 00:09:57,501 Hitler's Germany in the '30s and for the time being, there is no 164 00:09:57,501 --> 00:10:02,267 [unintelligible] to show that the Chinese government would be 165 00:10:02,267 --> 00:10:09,000 willing to have some reform in political aspect or to have more 166 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:14,767 respect for, basically, human rights in China because, to my 167 00:10:14,767 --> 00:10:19,033 knowledge, the labor camp system now is becoming some kind of 168 00:10:19,033 --> 00:10:20,234 enterprises. 169 00:10:20,234 --> 00:10:21,367 Right. 170 00:10:21,367 --> 00:10:27,634 Earning money is those labor camps' top priority 171 00:10:27,634 --> 00:10:35,501 and to deprive somebody's freedom can earn a lot of money. 172 00:10:35,501 --> 00:10:40,234 Yeah, that's ridiculous, but that's a fact. 173 00:10:40,234 --> 00:10:42,667 Thank you for coming and good luck to you. 174 00:10:42,667 --> 00:10:43,968 Thank you. 175 00:10:43,968 --> 00:10:47,534 The Courage to Stand Alone is Wei Jingsheng's 176 00:10:47,534 --> 00:10:48,501 book. 177 00:10:48,501 --> 00:10:51,734 TONG YEE is a student at Columbia University. 178 00:10:51,734 --> 00:10:53,667 We'll be right back. 179 00:10:53,667 --> 00:10:59,033 JIM FLICK is here and we'll talk about America's fascination with