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James Watson, for the hour, next.

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S1

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James Watson is here.

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He is, as you know, the godfather of genetics.

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In 1953, he and Francis Crick discovered the structure of

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DNA.

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Their achievement changed biology forever and earned them

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each a Nobel Prize.

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During the 1980s, Watson took part in the human genome

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project.

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In 2007, he became the second person to publish his fully

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sequenced genome online.

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He was also the director of the Cold Springs Harbor Laboratories

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from 1968 until 2003 when he became chancellor.

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He stepped down from that role in 2007.

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I am pleased to have him here on this program one more time,

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to explore whatever is on his mind.

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Welcome.

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Let's talk first about cancer.

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You said my primary interest now is cancer.

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Yes.

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I think about it in the middle of the night.

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(LAUGHTER)

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You know, (INAUDIBLE), but you know, we

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might finally crack it.

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Really?

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Yes.

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Largely now that we have the human genome project, you know,

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done.

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We know what's wrong in cancer.

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I mean, it's a hundred things, but all cancers have one of

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their faces the same.

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And that is involving energy.

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So you know, when cancer is really bad, they are metastatic

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in your body and they are dividing much too fast, they are

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very vulnerable to being attacked by the right drugs.

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And...

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As we found with Gleevec.

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Yes.

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And that stopped the sort of signal to divide, but this is a

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sort of signal to live.

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I mean, in the sense of you have to have a molecule called ATP

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to make energy.

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And you've got to make all the building blocks, so any time you

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go from one to two cells, you've got to make new body parts.

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And so, they have a different metabolism from your liver or

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your kidney or your brain.

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It's a metabolism of a dividing cell.

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And the first hint (ph) of this came way back in 1924,

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(INAUDIBLE), in Germany.

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He said that cancers have aerobic glycolysis.

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That is, they, in the presence of oxygen, they just eat up

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sugar.

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And that's glycolysis is glucose lysis, so -- and you can

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tell how dangerous a cancer is by how much lactic acid it is

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secreting.

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And it's still true.

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If you do a PET scan, look at your body to see the cancer,

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those that light up are those that are high glycolysis.

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So what do you think is possible?

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I think we should focus, you know, we'll need the

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things people are already developing.

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So I don't think there is going to be one magic bullet in the

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future, but I think we need one more powerful sort of hit.

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And what would that be?

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Something which stops glycolysis.

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Right.

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So if we could find that.

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How many people are working on that as we speak?

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Well, I doubt it's 1 percent of the cancer

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research community.

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And in the very super book by Bob Weinberg of MIT -- it came

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out three years ago -- if you look at the index, there is not

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one mention of glycolysis, not one mention of lactic acid, and

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no reference to the great Otto Barber (ph).

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Now, why is that, do you think?

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He's not thinking about it.

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Most people aren't.

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But I gave a course on cancer at Harvard in 1959.

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It's the 50th anniversary.

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So I don't think there is possibly anyone alive who gave a

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course on cancer before me.

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Why are you so interested in cancer?

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When I was 19, my father's younger brother died of

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a malignant melanoma.

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And there was just no treatment, you know, it went metastatic,

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and tumors came all over his body.

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It was awful.

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And so I wanted to be an experimental biologist, why not

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cure cancer.

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And then between that, someone said you can't do that until you

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find out the genes, so I had to find DNA.

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So you found DNA, and then we mapped the human

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genome, why is it taking so long?

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What is the hardest nut to crack?

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I don't know why.

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It's just, people don't -- give (ph) up what they are doing.

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You know, they do something very well.

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They just like it.

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And but there are, you know, there are some very good people

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who, you know, I'm just following these people.

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I'm going off to Madrid in 10 days for a meeting on the energy

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of cancer.

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So you know, the energy.

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And not the genetics.

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So the genetic phase is, you know, always important.

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But the big things are about to be finished.

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What do you mean the big things are about to be

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finished?

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We'll be able to sequence human cancer for $1,000

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very soon.

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Right.

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The whole cancer.

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Just like we could get your genome for $1,000 three years

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from today.

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So what can we get now?

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We will be able to do what now?

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With cancer genome?

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My genome was done two years ago.

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It cost a million dollars.

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All right, and now it will cost $20,000.

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So this is for your genome.

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For your genome.

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And soon our laboratory is going to get (ph) one of the new

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machines, where the cost are probably starting with $5,000

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and soon down to $1,000.

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That's incredible.

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Yes.

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And what have you learned from all the information you got

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from knowing your genome?

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In my case, I learned two useful things.

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One is I confirmed my suspicion I shouldn't eat too much ice

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cream, because -- no, it's because I don't digest lactose.

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So I only have one of the two genes that you probably have

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which lets you enjoy ice cream.

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Right, and what else did you learn?

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I learned that I don't digest beta blockers.

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So when I was...

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I'm surprised this is what you learned.

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Was there any predisposition from your genome?

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Did you find yourself having anything that would indicate

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you are predisposed or susceptible to some serious...

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No, with age, your blood pressure rises.

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So the doctor saw mine going up...

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You take drugs for that and you're OK.

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You take drugs, and a very effective drug is a

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beta blocker.

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So he gave me one, and within a week I was falling asleep in the

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middle of the afternoon.

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You know, middle of a play or something.

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You know, it was just grim.

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And then they gave me another beta blocker.

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I fell asleep again.

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And then the doctor, you know, on to an ace inhibitor, which

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didn't seem to work.

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So they basically said we can't use beta blockers

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with Jim Watson?

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Then Craig Venter's group looked at my

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genome and compared it with his.

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And found that I have two copies of an Asian variant which

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metabolizes beta blockers at only 10 percent the rate that

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most Caucasians.

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That is the problem right there.

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We do not have a large enough sample of human genomes so that

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we can look at them and make some really smart analysis,

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right or wrong?

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Well...

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Wrong?

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In this case of beta blockers, we almost do.

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But certainly within 10 years, no one will go into, you know,

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get a beta blocker without their looking at the DNA first.

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My point, though, isn't that -- the point that we

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do not have enough human genome mapping of individuals to be

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able to have some sense of the comparisons?

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No, I could form a company tomorrow.

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Yes.

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And just do cytochrome P-450, these are the

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genes that code for enzymes that degrade drugs, OK.

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And then we would essentially tell.

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We could tell you whether you -- a beta blocker will work.

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You might have 10 copies of the gene and they won't work at all

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because you will metabolize the drug in an hour instead of 24

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hours.

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Other people are me -- I have a real slow metabolism.

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So...

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But you can see that in your genetic...

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Yes.

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And looking -- the whole genome, that's a big thing.

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But you can just look at these set of genes and get it.

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So someone is going to form a company.

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And it will cut the cost of, you know, health insurance, because

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you won't be taking the wrong medicine.

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Now what about Alzheimer's?

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Alzheimer's, I said I didn't want to know.

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I put on the web my whole genome except the one for

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apolipo-protein E, of which the four variant predisposes you to

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Alzheimer's.

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You didn't want to know.

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No.

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My grandmother had Alzheimer's, so that would have meant I have

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a one in four chance of having the gene.

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My mother died too soon to know whether she would have had the

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gene.

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And so, I didn't want to know because I can't do anything

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about it.

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So I just go under the assumption I'm not going to get

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Alzheimer's.

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And if I do, then, you know, I will react in a speedy fashion.

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One of the other things we have found out, in

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your case it is particularly appropriate because of

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schizophrenia, is how much of what we call -- thought of as

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psychological disorders have a brain science connection.

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Schizophrenia is probably entirely genetic.

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Right.

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And -- as is bipolar.

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And -- but it is going to be complicated, like cancer, you

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know.

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You said at the beginning, there are hundreds of genes which can

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predispose you to cancer.

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And there will be hundreds of different genes which predispose

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us to schizophrenia.

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The hope is that -- but we know that all these genes are

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connected with the functioning of the brain.

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They're not concerned with the functioning of your kidney, they

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are really brain specific.

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And so hopefully, just like in cancer, even though there are

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hundreds of genes, there are interrelated pathways.

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And there are real sort of signal points, you know, where

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everything comes together.

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And if you block that, you really, you know, that is the

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one you go at.

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And we have got to do that much better than we can.

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Almost all our drugs start out with trying to attach to the

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dopamine 2 (ph), D-2 receptor, which is in a part of the brain.

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And -- in schizophrenia, you have too much dopamine in a

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part of your brain.

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So you cut it down, and then you are better off.

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There is no -- been no big improvement in the treatment of

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schizophrenia for 45 years.

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There are new drugs.

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They marginally improve it, but I have a son who has

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schizophrenia, and I can say that, you know, he is still

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awaiting a new medicine.

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You also have said, though, that we know

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things now that would have changed your attitude about

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schizophrenia or the public attitude about schizophrenia.

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Well, the only -- yes, I think, you know, thinking

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in terms of molecules, you can cure schizophrenia through

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drugs.

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You will never cure it by talking to someone.

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Yes.

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But you have also said that the 21st century will be marked by

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the convergence, by the convergence of biology and

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psychology.

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Yes.

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What did you mean?

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That psychology will become a science.

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Exactly.

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OK, so in other words, psychology becomes a science,

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that's easy.

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00:12:26,868 --> 00:12:28,868
And we'll understand how the brain works.

262
00:12:28,868 --> 00:12:30,868
You know, in a sense, we, you know, understand how the

263
00:12:30,868 --> 00:12:31,868
chromosomes works.

264
00:12:31,868 --> 00:12:33,834
That is happening rapidly now...

265
00:12:33,834 --> 00:12:34,934
No, not really.

266
00:12:34,934 --> 00:12:35,934
Really?

267
00:12:35,934 --> 00:12:38,734
No, we don't know how information is stored.

268
00:12:38,734 --> 00:12:40,734
No, but we do know it's science-based.

269
00:12:40,734 --> 00:12:44,033
I mean, we really do know that it is brain science that is at

270
00:12:44,033 --> 00:12:46,067
the core of many diseases we didn't understand.

271
00:12:46,067 --> 00:12:47,067
Yes.

272
00:12:47,067 --> 00:12:49,067
And we have done wonderful things at the level of how

273
00:12:49,067 --> 00:12:51,033
synapses work.

274
00:12:51,033 --> 00:12:53,534
But we still don't know how the integration of, you know...

275
00:12:53,534 --> 00:12:55,534
How we absorb information.

276
00:12:55,534 --> 00:12:58,300
Yes, where it's stored, anything about it.

277
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,801
So people say, you know, we haven't found the double helix

278
00:13:01,801 --> 00:13:03,067
of the brain yet.

279
00:13:03,067 --> 00:13:04,067
Right.

280
00:13:04,067 --> 00:13:05,634
And you say that's true?

281
00:13:05,634 --> 00:13:07,834
Yes, I think it's true.

282
00:13:07,834 --> 00:13:12,300
So what is -- what we want to know most of all

283
00:13:12,300 --> 00:13:13,901
is how the brain works.

284
00:13:13,901 --> 00:13:16,434
How does it work in a healthy way?

285
00:13:16,434 --> 00:13:18,033
How does it absorb information?

286
00:13:18,033 --> 00:13:20,934
How does it translate information into all kinds of

287
00:13:20,934 --> 00:13:21,934
things?

288
00:13:21,934 --> 00:13:22,934
Yes.

289
00:13:22,934 --> 00:13:25,400
Am I right or wrong or halfway there?

290
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,267
Of course we want to know it.

291
00:13:28,267 --> 00:13:32,734
But as a father of a child with a serious mental disease, I want

292
00:13:32,734 --> 00:13:33,734
him better.

293
00:13:33,734 --> 00:13:38,133
So I want for us to do for the mental disease what we have been

294
00:13:38,133 --> 00:13:41,334
doing for cancer over the last 20 years, very effectively.

295
00:13:41,334 --> 00:13:43,567
You know, we know -- Gleevec works.

296
00:13:43,567 --> 00:13:44,834
(INAUDIBLE), we don't know.

297
00:13:44,834 --> 00:13:47,000
But that was one gene.

298
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,968
That was one.

299
00:13:48,968 --> 00:13:50,567
In Gleevec.

300
00:13:50,567 --> 00:13:55,334
So Gleevec was able to attack one gene, because they knew the

301
00:13:55,334 --> 00:13:56,934
gene that causes leukemia.

302
00:13:56,934 --> 00:13:57,934
(CROSSTALK)

303
00:13:57,934 --> 00:14:01,667
And you only had really one bad thing wrong.

304
00:14:01,667 --> 00:14:04,067
You didn't have four or five.

305
00:14:04,067 --> 00:14:05,234
Right.

306
00:14:05,234 --> 00:14:08,801
Most mature cancers have four or five.

307
00:14:08,801 --> 00:14:12,367
And so we just are attacking one or two.

308
00:14:12,367 --> 00:14:17,534
And we have to attack four or five, really, to, you know, get

309
00:14:17,534 --> 00:14:19,100
it in real shape.

310
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:23,501
But for the brain, we need a commitment to understand the

311
00:14:23,501 --> 00:14:28,901
genes that go wrong in schizophrenia, bipolar disease,

312
00:14:28,901 --> 00:14:32,501
serious depression, autism.

313
00:14:32,501 --> 00:14:35,267
And so we need a real big program.

314
00:14:35,267 --> 00:14:39,067
We're going to probably have to maybe even look at 100,000

315
00:14:39,067 --> 00:14:40,067
genomes.

316
00:14:40,067 --> 00:14:42,133
But shouldn't this be like a...

317
00:14:42,133 --> 00:14:45,334
It's another billion-dollar project.

318
00:14:45,334 --> 00:14:46,334
But so?

319
00:14:46,334 --> 00:14:48,334
That's not much money.

320
00:14:48,334 --> 00:14:50,334
In the great scheme of things and what we are

321
00:14:50,334 --> 00:14:51,334
talking about today...

322
00:14:51,334 --> 00:14:54,834
No, what we need in cancer research is to go to

323
00:14:54,834 --> 00:14:55,834
war again.

324
00:14:55,834 --> 00:14:57,400
And we need a general.

325
00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,934
What we need in mental disease is money.

326
00:15:00,934 --> 00:15:03,167
You know, we just have to get the facts.

327
00:15:03,167 --> 00:15:05,868
We have been spending money on cancer, I think very

328
00:15:05,868 --> 00:15:06,868
effectively.

329
00:15:06,868 --> 00:15:11,067
We now have just a wonderful collection of knowledge, which

330
00:15:11,067 --> 00:15:14,300
I think is more complete than a lot of other people do.

331
00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:16,901
So I think we're really there.

332
00:15:16,901 --> 00:15:19,767
Mental disease, we haven't started.

333
00:15:19,767 --> 00:15:23,434
We know about four genes, and probably none of them, you know,

334
00:15:23,434 --> 00:15:24,934
are major culprits.

335
00:15:24,934 --> 00:15:26,834
We're just at the beginning.

336
00:15:26,834 --> 00:15:28,767
And so...

337
00:15:28,767 --> 00:15:32,467
Is there something to this idea, that if

338
00:15:32,467 --> 00:15:36,133
we try to understand when something goes wrong, when

339
00:15:36,133 --> 00:15:40,367
something goes wrong with cells in the brain, and then maybe we

340
00:15:40,367 --> 00:15:44,701
can say then what if it went the other way, then we can get at

341
00:15:44,701 --> 00:15:47,100
what happens when things go right.

342
00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:48,100
Yes.

343
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:54,501
So what we said in cancer, we understand the cancer cell,

344
00:15:54,501 --> 00:15:59,534
which (INAUDIBLE) understanding the normal cell.

345
00:15:59,534 --> 00:16:02,133
Then we can really go to war against cancer.

346
00:16:02,133 --> 00:16:05,467
Until we know what it is, you know, don't declare war when

347
00:16:05,467 --> 00:16:07,467
you don't know the odds of winning.

348
00:16:07,467 --> 00:16:11,801
But you think the odds of winning are pretty good.

349
00:16:11,801 --> 00:16:17,667
I would say, I would define it as now 600,000

350
00:16:17,667 --> 00:16:21,534
people, Americans die each year of cancer.

351
00:16:21,534 --> 00:16:26,100
All the treatments that we now have, if we didn't have any

352
00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:29,100
medicine, 700,000.

353
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:32,834
That's because in many cases, we treat it, but you know, we

354
00:16:32,834 --> 00:16:35,601
don't cure some of the disease.

355
00:16:35,601 --> 00:16:40,167
Instead of dying after two years, they die after 10.

356
00:16:40,167 --> 00:16:42,467
The disease is still there.

357
00:16:42,467 --> 00:16:46,601
Let us say we could cure pancreatic cancer, lung

358
00:16:46,601 --> 00:16:47,601
cancer...

359
00:16:47,601 --> 00:16:49,701
Well, they think they will be able to do lung

360
00:16:49,701 --> 00:16:50,701
cancer, I think.

361
00:16:50,701 --> 00:16:51,701
No.

362
00:16:51,701 --> 00:16:53,734
No, that is the hardest one?

363
00:16:53,734 --> 00:16:55,734
That is a real hard one.

364
00:16:55,734 --> 00:16:57,734
Because it is generally diagnosed late.

365
00:16:57,734 --> 00:17:01,968
It is not diagnosed like in leukemia, where it's simple.

366
00:17:01,968 --> 00:17:04,834
And that's why most people die within a year.

367
00:17:04,834 --> 00:17:05,834
Yes, yes.

368
00:17:05,834 --> 00:17:07,167
It's diagnosed very late.

369
00:17:07,167 --> 00:17:09,234
So that is the problem.

370
00:17:09,234 --> 00:17:10,234
And...

371
00:17:10,234 --> 00:17:12,267
What about breast cancer?

372
00:17:12,267 --> 00:17:15,367
Breast cancer is one of the few cancers where we

373
00:17:15,367 --> 00:17:16,367
are curing, so.

374
00:17:16,367 --> 00:17:17,367
Right.

375
00:17:17,367 --> 00:17:19,367
So we made progress really...

376
00:17:19,367 --> 00:17:22,100
And why do we make progress in breast cancer

377
00:17:22,100 --> 00:17:24,100
and not make progress in lung cancer?

378
00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:26,133
Probably it's detected earlier.

379
00:17:26,133 --> 00:17:27,734
Yeah, so -- OK.

380
00:17:27,734 --> 00:17:29,167
Let me talk about your life.

381
00:17:29,167 --> 00:17:32,734
Why did you become a scientist?

382
00:17:32,734 --> 00:17:37,968
Because I was real curious about life.

383
00:17:37,968 --> 00:17:42,133
I wanted to know what life was.

384
00:17:42,133 --> 00:17:46,434
And even earlier than that, I was fascinated with birds.

385
00:17:46,434 --> 00:17:55,901
You know, about the age of six, I was given my first bird book.

386
00:17:55,901 --> 00:17:57,901
And my father was an obsessive bird-watcher.

387
00:17:57,901 --> 00:17:59,934
And by the time I was 10, you know, my legs were long enough

388
00:17:59,934 --> 00:18:02,567
so I could go on real bird walks with him.

389
00:18:02,567 --> 00:18:11,200
And so -- and then I wanted to be questioned -- what is life.

390
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,767
You know, it was a physical world and the living world.

391
00:18:13,767 --> 00:18:18,367
And there was a religious explanation, but early on in

392
00:18:18,367 --> 00:18:24,334
life, I sort of decided not to go with religion.

393
00:18:24,334 --> 00:18:26,100
So I wanted something else.

394
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,100
How do you feel about religion today?

395
00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:31,167
It has many functions, so you know, I don't

396
00:18:31,167 --> 00:18:33,400
want to stop people from being religious.

397
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,667
I'm not out to...

398
00:18:34,667 --> 00:18:38,734
You like the music and you said to me -- and

399
00:18:38,734 --> 00:18:40,000
you like the Bible.

400
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:41,868
Some parts of it.

401
00:18:41,868 --> 00:18:42,868
Right.

402
00:18:42,868 --> 00:18:44,868
Not the beginning, but...

403
00:18:44,868 --> 00:18:45,968
Right, right.

404
00:18:45,968 --> 00:18:49,400
As you get in more towards the Jesus portion,

405
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:50,667
I like it better.

406
00:18:50,667 --> 00:18:52,234
Tell me this.

407
00:18:52,234 --> 00:18:55,534
When -- do you think the fact that you and Francis Crick

408
00:18:55,534 --> 00:18:59,367
discovered the structure of DNA mainly because you had superior

409
00:18:59,367 --> 00:19:05,334
intelligence, superior information, or superior

410
00:19:05,334 --> 00:19:09,334
personal qualities that led to your pursuit?

411
00:19:09,334 --> 00:19:15,100
I think it was a combination of all three.

412
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:18,767
How would you balance them?

413
00:19:18,767 --> 00:19:20,734
Intelligence, information, drive.

414
00:19:20,734 --> 00:19:22,767
Most important is drive.

415
00:19:22,767 --> 00:19:23,767
Really?

416
00:19:23,767 --> 00:19:24,767
Yeah.

417
00:19:24,767 --> 00:19:27,133
I really wanted to find the structure of DNA.

418
00:19:27,133 --> 00:19:30,634
Rosalind Franklin and Maurice Wilkins, who are physicists, it

419
00:19:30,634 --> 00:19:32,834
was an interesting problem.

420
00:19:32,834 --> 00:19:37,734
But it was, you know, Maurice was always more interested in

421
00:19:37,734 --> 00:19:40,567
stopping war, nuclear weapons.

422
00:19:40,567 --> 00:19:47,701
You know, I really was obsessed with wanting to know what life

423
00:19:47,701 --> 00:19:48,701
was.

424
00:19:48,701 --> 00:19:51,901
So Francis wasn't thinking about DNA when I arrived in

425
00:19:51,901 --> 00:19:52,901
Cambridge.

426
00:19:52,901 --> 00:19:56,334
But he had read the little book "What is Life," like I did,

427
00:19:56,334 --> 00:19:57,334
Wilkinson read it.

428
00:19:57,334 --> 00:20:03,734
And Francis, you know, added an extreme intelligence to our

429
00:20:03,734 --> 00:20:04,734
side.

430
00:20:04,734 --> 00:20:06,534
And I had the drive.

431
00:20:06,534 --> 00:20:07,534
And...

432
00:20:07,534 --> 00:20:11,000
Could you measure whether you or Francis was the

433
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:12,000
most intelligent?

434
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,000
Oh, he was more intelligent.

435
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,000
How would you measure that, though?

436
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,400
It is not the capacity to take tests.

437
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,067
How would you measure it?

438
00:20:21,067 --> 00:20:23,167
No, no no.

439
00:20:23,167 --> 00:20:24,868
He thought so fast.

440
00:20:24,868 --> 00:20:25,868
You know?

441
00:20:25,868 --> 00:20:27,868
He thought fast.

442
00:20:27,868 --> 00:20:32,934
Yeah, you know, I was younger than he, so, you

443
00:20:32,934 --> 00:20:34,634
know, he was older.

444
00:20:34,634 --> 00:20:39,267
He was trained in physics, a technique we really needed to

445
00:20:39,267 --> 00:20:41,834
get at the structure of DNA.

446
00:20:41,834 --> 00:20:45,634
So oh, anyone who met Francis, you know, he...

447
00:20:45,634 --> 00:20:49,000
Said he is smarter than Jim.

448
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:50,701
Yes, yes.

449
00:20:50,701 --> 00:20:51,968
But that didn't...

450
00:20:51,968 --> 00:20:54,701
Francis alone would not have done it.

451
00:20:54,701 --> 00:20:57,200
No, he wouldn't have done it.

452
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,200
And you alone wouldn't have done it.

453
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,467
I wouldn't have been capable of doing it.

454
00:21:01,467 --> 00:21:06,400
There was a key fact, we call a base (ph) group, that Francis

455
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,434
understood from the data.

456
00:21:08,434 --> 00:21:12,100
So that, and we did know it.

457
00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:14,968
And we learned it two weeks before we got the answer.

458
00:21:14,968 --> 00:21:19,267
And we didn't use it to build the model, but it confirmed it.

459
00:21:19,267 --> 00:21:24,033
So the day we saw the base pair (ph) and said, well, this leads

460
00:21:24,033 --> 00:21:28,133
to this sort of structure, we knew it was confirmed by the

461
00:21:28,133 --> 00:21:29,133
data.

462
00:21:29,133 --> 00:21:32,901
So that is why we could be so, you know, joyously happy within

463
00:21:32,901 --> 00:21:33,901
two hours.

464
00:21:33,901 --> 00:21:35,934
Because it meant a confirmation.

465
00:21:35,934 --> 00:21:36,934
And Francis understood it.

466
00:21:36,934 --> 00:21:38,934
Rosalind Franklin didn't understand it.

467
00:21:38,934 --> 00:21:42,100
She knew there was this thing but she never used it.

468
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:46,434
If she had used it -- and she once tried to find out what it

469
00:21:46,434 --> 00:21:51,534
meant, but then, I think because of personal problems,

470
00:21:51,534 --> 00:21:55,667
she and the English (ph) Chris Lagerford (ph), Dorothy Hodgkin

471
00:21:55,667 --> 00:21:57,667
(ph), couldn't talk to each other.

472
00:21:57,667 --> 00:22:00,634
And Dorothy could have told -- anyways, that meeting failed.

473
00:22:00,634 --> 00:22:06,400
And Rosalind never came to Francis and asked, you know,

474
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,567
help me.

475
00:22:07,567 --> 00:22:09,300
Yes.

476
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:11,033
So...

477
00:22:11,033 --> 00:22:13,901
Because you know people think that she doesn't

478
00:22:13,901 --> 00:22:14,901
get enough credit.

479
00:22:14,901 --> 00:22:20,000
There have been films, documentaries about it.

480
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,200
Oh, yes.

481
00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:24,701
And you know, afterwards she became quite close to Francis,

482
00:22:24,701 --> 00:22:26,701
and she was a woman of high intelligence.

483
00:22:26,701 --> 00:22:28,701
She wasn't in the league with Francis.

484
00:22:28,701 --> 00:22:31,767
Francis was just, you know, a phenomenon.

485
00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:36,400
And -- but she didn't know enough.

486
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,701
And she didn't get help.

487
00:22:38,701 --> 00:22:41,701
And so, she sort of wasted her time.

488
00:22:41,701 --> 00:22:45,767
Was there any part of you who looks at your

489
00:22:45,767 --> 00:22:50,434
life now, at your age now, and says, you know, I did this

490
00:22:50,434 --> 00:22:53,801
extraordinary thing, one of the great discoveries in science, at

491
00:22:53,801 --> 00:22:55,367
25 -- right, 25?

492
00:22:55,367 --> 00:22:56,367
Yes.

493
00:22:56,367 --> 00:22:58,701
And so, you know, what has the rest of my life

494
00:22:58,701 --> 00:22:59,701
been about?

495
00:22:59,701 --> 00:23:01,467
I made the great discovery.

496
00:23:01,467 --> 00:23:03,100
I could never top that.

497
00:23:03,100 --> 00:23:05,133
But it didn't matter.

498
00:23:05,133 --> 00:23:07,834
As long as there were other great things to do.

499
00:23:07,834 --> 00:23:08,968
You know ...

500
00:23:08,968 --> 00:23:11,767
But you didn't worry about that, damn, I've

501
00:23:11,767 --> 00:23:14,467
done this big thing and I will never be able to do anything

502
00:23:14,467 --> 00:23:15,734
like that again.

503
00:23:15,734 --> 00:23:18,434
Now, you know, so many people want to be

504
00:23:18,434 --> 00:23:19,701
photographed next to them.

505
00:23:19,701 --> 00:23:22,234
Which is just, you know, just be photographed.

506
00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:23,234
So...

507
00:23:23,234 --> 00:23:26,133
We were just here and someone who -- well-known

508
00:23:26,133 --> 00:23:30,534
and a very popular author, wanted you to sign a book.

509
00:23:30,534 --> 00:23:32,434
Yes.

510
00:23:32,434 --> 00:23:34,400
For their father.

511
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,701
Because DNA is so important, I sort of jokingly

512
00:23:38,701 --> 00:23:41,934
say, you know, I am the only famous scientist still alive.

513
00:23:41,934 --> 00:23:43,167
No, no...

514
00:23:43,167 --> 00:23:44,167
(CROSSTALK)

515
00:23:44,167 --> 00:23:46,167
... and Madame Curie...

516
00:23:46,167 --> 00:23:47,167
(CROSSTALK)

517
00:23:47,167 --> 00:23:49,167
Not true, Stephen Hawking could be considered, but

518
00:23:49,167 --> 00:23:50,334
in a certain way.

519
00:23:50,334 --> 00:23:53,734
Yes, yes, so, but yes, if you are in England.

520
00:23:53,734 --> 00:23:55,267
But the fame doesn't matter.

521
00:23:55,267 --> 00:23:56,501
You know, I won't...

522
00:23:56,501 --> 00:23:58,067
It does matter.

523
00:23:58,067 --> 00:23:59,334
It does matter.

524
00:23:59,334 --> 00:24:02,734
Well, it lets me have other -- I won't be happy

525
00:24:02,734 --> 00:24:05,334
until we cure cancer.

526
00:24:05,334 --> 00:24:07,734
I mean, you know, that's what I want to do.

527
00:24:07,734 --> 00:24:09,968
But here's -- you have been all over the place.

528
00:24:09,968 --> 00:24:15,100
I mean, suppose after 25, after the structure of DNA, you and

529
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:18,467
Francis had said, all right, let's set off and get the next

530
00:24:18,467 --> 00:24:19,467
big challenge.

531
00:24:19,467 --> 00:24:21,467
And the next big challenge is cancer.

532
00:24:21,467 --> 00:24:22,968
Let's you and I go after it.

533
00:24:22,968 --> 00:24:25,467
You were the most famous scientists in the world.

534
00:24:25,467 --> 00:24:29,167
You could have amassed huge amounts of research money at

535
00:24:29,167 --> 00:24:30,801
that time.

536
00:24:30,801 --> 00:24:32,767
No.

537
00:24:32,767 --> 00:24:34,734
Wrong?

538
00:24:34,734 --> 00:24:37,067
Yes, well, we didn't know how to do it.

539
00:24:37,067 --> 00:24:41,234
We had to find out how DNA goes to RNA, goes to protein.

540
00:24:41,234 --> 00:24:43,234
And so, I made the plunge in 1968 when I went to Cold Spring

541
00:24:43,234 --> 00:24:46,200
Harbor, and said the main purpose of Cold Spring Harbor

542
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,801
will be to understand cancer.

543
00:24:48,801 --> 00:24:52,133
I said we have to understand it before we cure it.

544
00:24:52,133 --> 00:24:56,200
And soon afterwards, President Nixon declared...

545
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,200
War on cancer.

546
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,667
... a war on cancer.

547
00:25:00,667 --> 00:25:04,901
And I was pleased, except that I didn't think victory was going

548
00:25:04,901 --> 00:25:06,267
to come very soon.

549
00:25:06,267 --> 00:25:10,133
And -- but I was put on th first presidential committee.

550
00:25:10,133 --> 00:25:13,968
And we moved after two years, because I don't see victory.

551
00:25:13,968 --> 00:25:19,567
I went to MIT and I got into deep trouble when I said we are

552
00:25:19,567 --> 00:25:23,734
-- MIT is really, this is a very good use of federal money.

553
00:25:23,734 --> 00:25:27,601
We are bringing the cancer problem to brains, not to the

554
00:25:27,601 --> 00:25:28,601
patients.

555
00:25:28,601 --> 00:25:31,434
You know, the idea was take cancer, hospitals do science

556
00:25:31,434 --> 00:25:34,234
there, I said it's better done at MIT.

557
00:25:34,234 --> 00:25:37,033
Now it should go back to the hospital.

558
00:25:37,033 --> 00:25:39,133
I want it in the hospital.

559
00:25:39,133 --> 00:25:43,000
But you have gotten in trouble with what you

560
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,534
say, and what you write, more than -- and I don't know whether

561
00:25:47,534 --> 00:25:51,367
it's simply because you are the most candid person alive, or

562
00:25:51,367 --> 00:25:55,200
whether you have no edit function in your brain.

563
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,501
I'm constantly -- because, you know, I think out

564
00:25:59,501 --> 00:26:00,501
aloud.

565
00:26:00,501 --> 00:26:05,567
And, you know, sometimes it is inappropriate, and I'm terribly

566
00:26:05,567 --> 00:26:09,767
embarrassed and I write letters, and I try and hope

567
00:26:09,767 --> 00:26:11,767
people will forgive me.

568
00:26:11,767 --> 00:26:13,767
Beg for forgiveness.

569
00:26:13,767 --> 00:26:16,167
I beg -- and you know, I apologize.

570
00:26:16,167 --> 00:26:17,834
I (INAUDIBLE) apologize.

571
00:26:17,834 --> 00:26:21,601
I didn't, you know, I said some, you know, about people who

572
00:26:21,601 --> 00:26:23,734
stood in my way, you know.

573
00:26:23,734 --> 00:26:26,067
They wanted to regulate DNA.

574
00:26:26,067 --> 00:26:28,167
It was complete lunacy.

575
00:26:28,167 --> 00:26:35,634
And this woman (INAUDIBLE) came to be a regulator, I thought she

576
00:26:35,634 --> 00:26:36,634
is my enemy.

577
00:26:36,634 --> 00:26:38,634
So I -- I was very inappropriate...

578
00:26:38,634 --> 00:26:44,267
Did you think they might -- go ahead.

579
00:26:44,267 --> 00:26:46,000
Yes.

580
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:50,334
Someone had to come out, you know, we're saying Obama --

581
00:26:50,334 --> 00:26:55,567
Obama has finally got it, you know -- say what it is.

582
00:26:55,567 --> 00:26:57,934
Finally go after your opponents.

583
00:26:57,934 --> 00:27:09,300
Because if you don't, you know, go after them, they are going

584
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:10,300
to kill you.

585
00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:13,300
So that is your message to him today.

586
00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,734
He needs to get tough with his opponents.

587
00:27:15,734 --> 00:27:16,767
Yes.

588
00:27:16,767 --> 00:27:18,234
Is your point.

589
00:27:18,234 --> 00:27:19,234
Yes.

590
00:27:19,234 --> 00:27:20,234
I mean...

591
00:27:20,234 --> 00:27:21,434
His critics.

592
00:27:21,434 --> 00:27:24,667
Yes, you know, I just think, you know, there are

593
00:27:24,667 --> 00:27:28,067
some enemies who won't go away no matter what you do.

594
00:27:28,067 --> 00:27:30,501
All these people want to keep medicine expensive.

595
00:27:30,501 --> 00:27:31,501
Ah.

596
00:27:31,501 --> 00:27:32,667
So it's about that.

597
00:27:32,667 --> 00:27:33,901
Yes, yes.

598
00:27:33,901 --> 00:27:36,667
These are insurance companies and -- and

599
00:27:36,667 --> 00:27:37,667
medical establishment or...

600
00:27:37,667 --> 00:27:40,434
Everyone is, you know, you know, they want to

601
00:27:40,434 --> 00:27:42,868
keep you alive as long as possible, because when you

602
00:27:42,868 --> 00:27:45,200
disappear, there is no more money coming in from you.

603
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,167
So there is too much -- too much services in the

604
00:27:48,167 --> 00:27:51,968
last year and too many thieves to be gained in the last year.

605
00:27:51,968 --> 00:27:53,133
Yes, I mean...

606
00:27:53,133 --> 00:27:55,133
That's it in a nutshell.

607
00:27:55,133 --> 00:27:57,133
Yes, we should all die cheaply.

608
00:27:57,133 --> 00:27:59,300
How do we die cheaply?

609
00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:01,400
By not having the advantage of all the modern machines?

610
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,634
Yes, it's not appropriate for this program.

611
00:28:05,634 --> 00:28:14,734
You know, I don't want to offend people.

612
00:28:14,734 --> 00:28:17,567
But I'm just sort of saying, you know, there are life-and-death

613
00:28:17,567 --> 00:28:18,567
decisions.

614
00:28:18,567 --> 00:28:21,200
And you make your own decision as to whether you want to go

615
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,067
ahead when your heart is not beating very well and your

616
00:28:24,067 --> 00:28:26,934
kidney is failing, and you know, these are these sorts of

617
00:28:26,934 --> 00:28:27,934
personal things.

618
00:28:27,934 --> 00:28:29,934
But you know, it is a very separate issue.

619
00:28:29,934 --> 00:28:33,133
But I mean, we've got to reduce, you know, not only do we

620
00:28:33,133 --> 00:28:36,267
have to cure cancer, but we have got to do it cheaply.

621
00:28:36,267 --> 00:28:37,300
You know, we can't...

622
00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:39,367
Can we do it cheaply, though?

623
00:28:39,367 --> 00:28:42,400
A couple of the drugs I think will be very

624
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:43,400
cheap.

625
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,400
You know, so...

626
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,133
But Gleevec was already there, the drug, I mean,

627
00:28:47,133 --> 00:28:50,100
what he did, the analysis was understanding the gene and

628
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:52,100
knowing there was a drug for the gene.

629
00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:53,100
Yes.

630
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:59,634
And -- but we can't spend 50 percent of our GDP on health

631
00:28:59,634 --> 00:29:00,634
care.

632
00:29:00,634 --> 00:29:01,634
Right.

633
00:29:01,634 --> 00:29:02,634
So...

634
00:29:02,634 --> 00:29:04,601
It is not 50 yet, is it?

635
00:29:04,601 --> 00:29:06,601
No, but it's 18 percent, now going to...

636
00:29:06,601 --> 00:29:07,601
(CROSSTALK)

637
00:29:07,601 --> 00:29:10,167
And every time we subdivide cancer and find out --

638
00:29:10,167 --> 00:29:11,934
subdivide it even more...

639
00:29:11,934 --> 00:29:14,501
Here is what I...

640
00:29:14,501 --> 00:29:20,567
The only thing I have done is they told me I had

641
00:29:20,567 --> 00:29:22,267
low- grade prostate cancer.

642
00:29:22,267 --> 00:29:25,033
And I decided to do nothing.

643
00:29:25,033 --> 00:29:28,334
You know, that cost $1,000, which, you know, probably, I

644
00:29:28,334 --> 00:29:30,334
have a nonexistent PSA.

645
00:29:30,334 --> 00:29:33,601
And so -- so you know, I did my own thing.

646
00:29:33,601 --> 00:29:37,434
But I just don't want to worry about it, you know.

647
00:29:37,434 --> 00:29:39,868
I want to worry about curing cancer.

648
00:29:39,868 --> 00:29:43,000
I don't want to worry about dying from it.

649
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,534
You can just worry all your life, or you can be, you know,

650
00:29:47,534 --> 00:29:50,634
positive, and you know, you should never do something unless

651
00:29:50,634 --> 00:29:51,634
you think you can win.

652
00:29:51,634 --> 00:29:52,634
Yes.

653
00:29:52,634 --> 00:29:53,868
So you know...

654
00:29:53,868 --> 00:29:56,367
You should never do anything unless you think you

655
00:29:56,367 --> 00:29:57,367
can win.

656
00:29:57,367 --> 00:29:59,367
See, I don't think that's true, Jim.

657
00:29:59,367 --> 00:30:01,601
You should -- I mean, you can't be guaranteed that you are

658
00:30:01,601 --> 00:30:02,601
going to win.

659
00:30:02,601 --> 00:30:04,601
I mean, you should go out there and...

660
00:30:04,601 --> 00:30:06,601
Oh, what I mean...

661
00:30:06,601 --> 00:30:09,334
A lot of people say -- a lot of people -- go

662
00:30:09,334 --> 00:30:10,334
ahead.

663
00:30:10,334 --> 00:30:12,968
No, what I am saying is you think you have a

664
00:30:12,968 --> 00:30:14,133
probability.

665
00:30:14,133 --> 00:30:17,067
When I was in Cambridge, I always thought, you know, maybe

666
00:30:17,067 --> 00:30:19,567
I have a 30 percent chance of winning.

667
00:30:19,567 --> 00:30:20,567
Exactly.

668
00:30:20,567 --> 00:30:22,567
So that was big enough.

669
00:30:22,567 --> 00:30:24,567
A 30 percent chance, that is enough.

670
00:30:24,567 --> 00:30:27,834
What I am saying, don't go for 1 or 2 percent.

671
00:30:27,834 --> 00:30:28,834
Yes.

672
00:30:28,834 --> 00:30:29,801
In other words...

673
00:30:29,801 --> 00:30:31,801
And so what I am saying...

674
00:30:31,801 --> 00:30:34,000
... spend your energy where there is a

675
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,334
likelihood that you can find and put together a...

676
00:30:36,334 --> 00:30:37,334
Sure.

677
00:30:37,334 --> 00:30:39,934
... forces that would lead to a positive result.

678
00:30:39,934 --> 00:30:40,934
Yes.

679
00:30:40,934 --> 00:30:44,067
And if it is a really big and important objective and it only

680
00:30:44,067 --> 00:30:46,901
20 percent, go, because the objective is so good that you

681
00:30:46,901 --> 00:30:48,200
will take the chance.

682
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,968
And at my age, you know, you could say that is a great

683
00:30:50,968 --> 00:30:54,434
advantage, your reputation, I don't have to do anything.

684
00:30:54,434 --> 00:31:01,734
And -- but it just -- I have been in cancer research for so

685
00:31:01,734 --> 00:31:04,868
long, and I'm so excited that I think it's finally come

686
00:31:04,868 --> 00:31:05,868
together.

687
00:31:05,868 --> 00:31:07,868
And that wasn't true five years ago.

688
00:31:07,868 --> 00:31:10,300
There has been that much change in five years?

689
00:31:10,300 --> 00:31:10,634
Oh, yes.

690
00:31:10,634 --> 00:31:13,267
Tell us one more time what the change is in five

691
00:31:13,267 --> 00:31:16,534
years, other than understanding the genetic basis of cancer.

692
00:31:16,534 --> 00:31:18,367
I can tell you.

693
00:31:18,367 --> 00:31:22,567
(INAUDIBLE), you could say there are enzymes involved, or

694
00:31:22,567 --> 00:31:26,300
proteins involved in growth signals, which Gleevec is

695
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:29,200
blocking one of those pathways.

696
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,634
And then there are other enzymes just involved in making your

697
00:31:33,634 --> 00:31:37,534
amino acids and digesting what we call intermediary

698
00:31:37,534 --> 00:31:40,267
metabolism, all the small molecules floating around.

699
00:31:40,267 --> 00:31:42,467
Small, flat molecules, et cetera.

700
00:31:42,467 --> 00:31:44,467
And then they go to build your body.

701
00:31:44,467 --> 00:31:45,467
Right.

702
00:31:45,467 --> 00:31:48,968
And so what we want to go at is this

703
00:31:48,968 --> 00:31:49,968
metabolism.

704
00:31:49,968 --> 00:31:51,300
And it is a new thing.

705
00:31:51,300 --> 00:31:54,267
I'm going to Spain, it's a meeting on metabolism.

706
00:31:54,267 --> 00:31:55,267
So...

707
00:31:55,267 --> 00:31:58,267
But you are convinced you are on the right

708
00:31:58,267 --> 00:31:59,267
track.

709
00:31:59,267 --> 00:32:01,901
Yes, and there are other people on it.

710
00:32:01,901 --> 00:32:04,234
So it's not I'm the only one.

711
00:32:04,234 --> 00:32:07,534
But you know, the majority of people are quite happy.

712
00:32:07,534 --> 00:32:11,534
I was in a big lab (ph) in Cambridge, I couldn't believe

713
00:32:11,534 --> 00:32:12,534
it, 400 people.

714
00:32:12,534 --> 00:32:14,834
Not one of them thinking of metabolism.

715
00:32:14,834 --> 00:32:16,167
I thought they're jerks.

716
00:32:16,167 --> 00:32:17,200
(LAUGHTER)

717
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,200
400.

718
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,200
You know, all...

719
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,200
You probably told them, too.

720
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,200
No, no, of course not.

721
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:28,133
I tried to be very polite, and then I gave a talk later in the

722
00:32:28,133 --> 00:32:32,501
day, in which I said, but it was just -- you know, you should

723
00:32:32,501 --> 00:32:33,501
diversify.

724
00:32:33,501 --> 00:32:35,000
You try this, you try that.

725
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,434
But you know, I get into trouble because I want to

726
00:32:37,434 --> 00:32:38,434
succeed.

727
00:32:38,434 --> 00:32:40,567
You know, I have strong...

728
00:32:40,567 --> 00:32:44,934
You get into trouble because you can't

729
00:32:44,934 --> 00:32:46,033
control yourself.

730
00:32:46,033 --> 00:32:48,934
But sometimes we don't know, I mean, just take the race stuff

731
00:32:48,934 --> 00:32:50,901
in Africa and Europe.

732
00:32:50,901 --> 00:32:54,367
You have apologized profusely and you said I'm sorry, I

733
00:32:54,367 --> 00:32:55,501
didn't mean it, I'm whatever.

734
00:32:55,501 --> 00:32:57,501
You have done everything that I know a man can do.

735
00:32:57,501 --> 00:32:58,834
Yes.

736
00:32:58,834 --> 00:33:00,834
Question still is, how could someone as smart

737
00:33:00,834 --> 00:33:01,834
as you are say what you did?

738
00:33:01,834 --> 00:33:05,901
Oh, I was saying something to a girl -- I never

739
00:33:05,901 --> 00:33:06,901
thought of her as a reporter.

740
00:33:06,901 --> 00:33:08,901
She lived in our house for a year.

741
00:33:08,901 --> 00:33:10,901
But that doesn't make any difference.

742
00:33:10,901 --> 00:33:12,868
I mean, you said it.

743
00:33:12,868 --> 00:33:16,267
I was treating her like a daughter.

744
00:33:16,267 --> 00:33:17,267
And...

745
00:33:17,267 --> 00:33:19,267
But that doesn't make any difference either.

746
00:33:19,267 --> 00:33:20,267
Did you think the thought?

747
00:33:20,267 --> 00:33:22,267
Sure, I thought the thought, whether it was

748
00:33:22,267 --> 00:33:23,300
right or wrong.

749
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,300
I didn't think it was appropriate ever to say it in

750
00:33:25,300 --> 00:33:26,300
public.

751
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:28,300
And someone had sent Steve Pinker and I (sic) a book, and

752
00:33:28,300 --> 00:33:29,300
so I just looked at the book.

753
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:30,300
And there were these facts.

754
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:33,501
The girl, who, you know, she lived with us 10 years ago.

755
00:33:33,501 --> 00:33:36,534
She had lived in Africa a few years ago.

756
00:33:36,534 --> 00:33:40,567
I have been to Africa a number of times and liked it.

757
00:33:40,567 --> 00:33:42,601
And we started talking about Africa.

758
00:33:42,601 --> 00:33:43,968
And that is all.

759
00:33:43,968 --> 00:33:47,000
So you know, I -- it was just awful.

760
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,000
And...

761
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,000
You recognized it was awful.

762
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,000
Oh, God, yes, instantly.

763
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,133
I saw -- you know, this is worst trouble I'm ever in my

764
00:33:56,133 --> 00:33:57,133
life...

765
00:33:57,133 --> 00:33:58,467
It was.

766
00:33:58,467 --> 00:34:01,567
... because it hurt people, and I didn't intend

767
00:34:01,567 --> 00:34:02,567
to hurt people.

768
00:34:02,567 --> 00:34:06,634
And it implied that some people I work with I have poor

769
00:34:06,634 --> 00:34:07,634
impressions of.

770
00:34:07,634 --> 00:34:08,634
I don't.

771
00:34:08,634 --> 00:34:11,701
I don't have people around me that I don't have high

772
00:34:11,701 --> 00:34:12,701
impressions of.

773
00:34:12,701 --> 00:34:16,567
And, you know -- so I -- I didn't want to get into

774
00:34:16,567 --> 00:34:17,667
trouble, it was not my main interest.

775
00:34:17,667 --> 00:34:20,701
I don't think about it, you know, 1 percent of the time.

776
00:34:20,701 --> 00:34:25,100
I had no reason to -- and I am not an expert on it.

777
00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:27,100
When I talk to you about cancer...

778
00:34:27,100 --> 00:34:29,100
You kno something.

779
00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:31,100
I just read a book, and some other people said

780
00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:33,100
it.

781
00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:36,367
And so I can't -- I've never measured IQ in my life.

782
00:34:36,367 --> 00:34:38,968
I did take a course on it...

783
00:34:38,968 --> 00:34:44,567
I don't want you to get into any deeper trouble

784
00:34:44,567 --> 00:34:45,567
here.

785
00:34:45,567 --> 00:34:48,701
No, no, but I'm saying I took a course on IQ at

786
00:34:48,701 --> 00:34:50,701
the University of Chicago in 1947.

787
00:34:50,701 --> 00:34:51,701
Yes.

788
00:34:51,701 --> 00:34:54,067
Because I was interested in why I had a low

789
00:34:54,067 --> 00:34:55,067
IQ.

790
00:34:55,067 --> 00:34:57,067
You have a low IQ?

791
00:34:57,067 --> 00:34:58,067
Yes.

792
00:34:58,067 --> 00:34:59,067
You do?

793
00:34:59,067 --> 00:35:00,067
Yes.

794
00:35:00,067 --> 00:35:01,067
I'm fast but...

795
00:35:01,067 --> 00:35:03,434
What does that mean, though, I mean, what...

796
00:35:03,434 --> 00:35:04,634
I don't know.

797
00:35:04,634 --> 00:35:06,067
But you know, I'm around 120.

798
00:35:06,067 --> 00:35:08,100
And you know, there are all these super genius you hear...

799
00:35:08,100 --> 00:35:10,067
Right, 180 and 200...

800
00:35:10,067 --> 00:35:12,067
Yes, and all that.

801
00:35:12,067 --> 00:35:14,200
So you know, I was just about good enough to get into a good

802
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:15,200
school.

803
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:16,200
Yes.

804
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,300
So you know, there was no reason to pick it

805
00:35:18,300 --> 00:35:19,300
out.

806
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:20,367
And so that is why...

807
00:35:20,367 --> 00:35:22,367
Are you interested in what makes us

808
00:35:22,367 --> 00:35:23,367
intelligent?

809
00:35:23,367 --> 00:35:25,367
Yes, it is a real hard problem.

810
00:35:25,367 --> 00:35:26,367
I know it is.

811
00:35:26,367 --> 00:35:28,100
Very hard.

812
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:32,100
And attempts so far to find genes totally failed.

813
00:35:32,100 --> 00:35:35,000
And you know, I won't go into --.

814
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,868
We cannot find a gene that determines

815
00:35:37,868 --> 00:35:38,868
intelligence.

816
00:35:38,868 --> 00:35:39,868
Yes.

817
00:35:39,868 --> 00:35:43,767
You say that, but that is the issue, isn't it?

818
00:35:43,767 --> 00:35:46,701
Yes, bu sometimes, you know, yes, there

819
00:35:46,701 --> 00:35:49,100
is a lot we don't know, yes.

820
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:52,200
So you know, until you find genes, and --.

821
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:56,534
Steven Pinker's argument, as you well know, is

822
00:35:56,534 --> 00:35:59,033
that these problems, we are never going to answer these

823
00:35:59,033 --> 00:36:00,033
problems.

824
00:36:00,033 --> 00:36:07,934
That some of this stuff about the brain is just too huge

825
00:36:07,934 --> 00:36:08,934
for...

826
00:36:08,934 --> 00:36:13,400
Well, as a scientist, I never want to say

827
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:14,434
that.

828
00:36:14,434 --> 00:36:39,200
So you know, all I will say is over the next 20 years, you

829
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,434
know, I wouldn't necessarily put my career on it.

830
00:36:41,434 --> 00:36:42,434
You know...

831
00:36:42,434 --> 00:36:43,434
Exactly.

832
00:36:43,434 --> 00:36:45,734
You know, it is not something that we are going

833
00:36:45,734 --> 00:36:48,300
to get definitive answers over the next couple of years.

834
00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:50,300
So it's a very complicated issue.

835
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:53,334
And -- but I want to say, you know, we had a meeting, and

836
00:36:53,334 --> 00:36:55,334
(INAUDIBLE), it was my 80th birthday.

837
00:36:55,334 --> 00:36:57,334
Can we make our brains work better?

838
00:36:57,334 --> 00:36:59,334
Because as you get older, your brain doesn't work.

839
00:36:59,334 --> 00:37:00,567
So I was all for...

840
00:37:00,567 --> 00:37:02,567
You were all for doing this.

841
00:37:02,567 --> 00:37:04,701
Yeah, I was all for, you know, brain

842
00:37:04,701 --> 00:37:05,701
improvement.

843
00:37:05,701 --> 00:37:07,701
Unfortunately, you know, I didn't, you know, what they say

844
00:37:07,701 --> 00:37:08,734
is lead an active life.

845
00:37:08,734 --> 00:37:10,734
Exercise more and all that.

846
00:37:10,734 --> 00:37:11,734
All that.

847
00:37:11,734 --> 00:37:12,734
And I do that.

848
00:37:12,734 --> 00:37:15,567
And so, but you know, these are very hard questions to answer.

849
00:37:15,567 --> 00:37:16,667
And I just...

850
00:37:16,667 --> 00:37:19,400
But you believe we will know the answer?

851
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,267
We'll know the answer by consciousness and will and --

852
00:37:22,267 --> 00:37:23,267
mind.

853
00:37:23,267 --> 00:37:25,968
Yes, I sort of think we will.

854
00:37:25,968 --> 00:37:30,400
But you know, I wouldn't, you know -- Francis Crick spent the

855
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:34,834
last 25 years of his life trying to think what the brain

856
00:37:34,834 --> 00:37:37,634
was and focusing on consciousness.

857
00:37:37,634 --> 00:37:38,634
It was just too hard.

858
00:37:38,634 --> 00:37:40,133
You know, he was interested.

859
00:37:40,133 --> 00:37:43,734
He didn't have to do -- make another great discovery in his

860
00:37:43,734 --> 00:37:46,167
life, so he had a lot of fun.

861
00:37:46,167 --> 00:37:48,167
But Francis and I are difficult.

862
00:37:48,167 --> 00:37:51,601
Maybe it's because I came from a more, you know, less privileged

863
00:37:51,601 --> 00:37:52,601
environment.

864
00:37:52,601 --> 00:37:55,801
I don't want to do anything unless I think I am going to

865
00:37:55,801 --> 00:37:56,801
succeed.

866
00:37:56,801 --> 00:37:58,267
You said that.

867
00:37:58,267 --> 00:38:00,267
You know, I go back...

868
00:38:00,267 --> 00:38:02,734
And Francis knew that he might not succeed.

869
00:38:02,734 --> 00:38:03,934
Oh, sure.

870
00:38:03,934 --> 00:38:05,434
But he had...

871
00:38:05,434 --> 00:38:06,434
(CROSSTALK)

872
00:38:06,434 --> 00:38:07,534
He had fun and...

873
00:38:07,534 --> 00:38:11,434
He lived in La Jolla, which is not a bad place

874
00:38:11,434 --> 00:38:12,434
to live.

875
00:38:12,434 --> 00:38:15,501
And he was very inspirational to the people at

876
00:38:15,501 --> 00:38:19,434
the Salk Institute, which is, you know, the Salk Institute and

877
00:38:19,434 --> 00:38:21,501
Cold Spring Harbor were sort of competitors.

878
00:38:21,501 --> 00:38:22,868
So we were in both places...

879
00:38:22,868 --> 00:38:24,901
You have liked being Jim Watson.

880
00:38:24,901 --> 00:38:26,100
Yes.

881
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:27,100
(LAUGHTER)

882
00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:29,701
Yes, no, I don't dislike myself.

883
00:38:29,701 --> 00:38:32,567
No, not yourself, but Jim Watson is beyond

884
00:38:32,567 --> 00:38:33,567
yourself.

885
00:38:33,567 --> 00:38:37,267
I mean, it is different because of what you did and when you did

886
00:38:37,267 --> 00:38:39,267
it and how much it's celebrated.

887
00:38:39,267 --> 00:38:41,901
Look, how many times on this program have scientists put

888
00:38:41,901 --> 00:38:47,501
what you achieved at the top rank of scientific achievement?

889
00:38:47,501 --> 00:38:50,267
You are way up there in the top 10 of everything.

890
00:38:50,267 --> 00:38:53,234
Yes, well, you know, DNA is in the top 10, and

891
00:38:53,234 --> 00:38:55,234
I was just born in the right year.

892
00:38:55,234 --> 00:38:56,567
No, I was.

893
00:38:56,567 --> 00:38:59,067
If I had been born three years before or three years

894
00:38:59,067 --> 00:39:00,067
afterward...

895
00:39:00,067 --> 00:39:02,534
You would not have done it.

896
00:39:02,534 --> 00:39:07,000
I would not have done it and no one would have

897
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,400
ever heard of me.

898
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:09,767
I would probably be...

899
00:39:09,767 --> 00:39:13,234
We wouldn't care about all these things you've

900
00:39:13,234 --> 00:39:14,300
written and said.

901
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:18,767
No, I -- I know I would have got in trouble

902
00:39:18,767 --> 00:39:22,567
wherever I was, because you know, I -- I want progress.

903
00:39:22,567 --> 00:39:23,601
That is all.

904
00:39:23,601 --> 00:39:27,534
It's just not, you know, I never pick on, you know,

905
00:39:27,534 --> 00:39:28,767
unimportant people.

906
00:39:28,767 --> 00:39:33,067
It's important people who, you know, I don't -- you know, I

907
00:39:33,067 --> 00:39:37,567
think, you know, a fairly Christian sense of -- you know,

908
00:39:37,567 --> 00:39:40,300
I don't want to hit those who are down.

909
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:42,734
You don't pick on the weak.

910
00:39:42,734 --> 00:39:44,868
You pick on the strong.

911
00:39:44,868 --> 00:39:47,033
Yes, I pick on the strong.

912
00:39:47,033 --> 00:39:49,367
Those are in your way in terms of what you think

913
00:39:49,367 --> 00:39:50,367
is the right course to take.

914
00:39:50,367 --> 00:39:54,834
Yes, it's just -- comes from, I think I'm part --

915
00:39:54,834 --> 00:39:57,501
I've been successful because I'm very impatient.

916
00:39:57,501 --> 00:39:59,767
Well said.

917
00:39:59,767 --> 00:40:04,868
You know, that's how I am, impatient.

918
00:40:04,868 --> 00:40:11,300
I just can't wait until we, you know, -- yes, I want to test the

919
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:12,300
drug (ph) out.

920
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:13,767
I'm really excited.

921
00:40:13,767 --> 00:40:16,434
It's a wonderful quality.

922
00:40:16,434 --> 00:40:18,634
It is a wonderful quality.

923
00:40:18,634 --> 00:40:22,567
So you know, science is a wonderful thing.

924
00:40:22,567 --> 00:40:29,033
I gave a -- I was at the 75th anniversary of the Sloan

925
00:40:29,033 --> 00:40:30,100
Foundation.

926
00:40:30,100 --> 00:40:34,067
And because of my age, I was the only one there who was at

927
00:40:34,067 --> 00:40:37,534
the 25th anniversary, you know, 50 years ago.

928
00:40:37,534 --> 00:40:41,634
You know, I was the youngest person there probably in 1959.

929
00:40:41,634 --> 00:40:45,534
And Dwight Eisenhower came and gave the talk.

930
00:40:45,534 --> 00:40:50,100
And his title of his talk, "Science: The Handmaiden of

931
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:55,667
Freedom." The title of the symposium was "Science: The

932
00:40:55,667 --> 00:41:00,701
Handmaiden of Industry." Eisenhower extended it to

933
00:41:00,701 --> 00:41:06,100
freedom, and he said we won't be free unless we have very

934
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:08,868
high-quality science.

935
00:41:08,868 --> 00:41:11,767
And we should nurture our science.

936
00:41:11,767 --> 00:41:15,501
And he made an announcement that he was going to recommend that

937
00:41:15,501 --> 00:41:21,400
$100 million be spent on the linear accelerator at Stanford.

938
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,934
And his speech was wonderful.

939
00:41:23,934 --> 00:41:27,501
I think Eisenhower was a great president.

940
00:41:27,501 --> 00:41:31,467
You know, no president loved science more than Eisenhower, or

941
00:41:31,467 --> 00:41:35,567
saw it advancing freedom.

942
00:41:35,567 --> 00:41:37,834
And I think saying freedom is very important.

943
00:41:37,834 --> 00:41:39,934
You can't have freedom without knowledge.

944
00:41:39,934 --> 00:41:43,434
So, yeah.

945
00:41:43,434 --> 00:41:48,634
Legacy.

946
00:41:48,634 --> 00:41:57,200
Just -- don't underestimate yourself.

947
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,334
Just go for it.

948
00:42:00,334 --> 00:42:02,701
You know, there are big things and there are minor things.

949
00:42:02,701 --> 00:42:09,300
And you know, I just like to stop disease.

950
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:11,901
Were you born with this or did you...

951
00:42:11,901 --> 00:42:13,901
Probably, I think so.

952
00:42:13,901 --> 00:42:15,901
It's in your genes.

953
00:42:15,901 --> 00:42:16,501
Yes.

954
00:42:16,501 --> 00:42:20,067
It's a behavioral characteristic, but it's in your

955
00:42:20,067 --> 00:42:22,067
genes.

956
00:42:22,067 --> 00:42:24,300
Behavior is in genes.

957
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:27,334
Yes, yes, you know, I'm probably a mutant.

958
00:42:27,334 --> 00:42:28,767
A mutant.

959
00:42:28,767 --> 00:42:32,934
Yes, I suspect, you know, somehow this

960
00:42:32,934 --> 00:42:36,868
impatience or something wasn't present (ph).

961
00:42:36,868 --> 00:42:41,434
You know, I am a, you know, a distant cousin of Orson Welles,

962
00:42:41,434 --> 00:42:46,467
his grandmother was a Watson.

963
00:42:46,467 --> 00:42:53,834
So, you know, my father's uncle helped raise Orson.

964
00:42:53,834 --> 00:42:55,634
So I heard about it.

965
00:42:55,634 --> 00:42:57,634
But he must have been impatient.

966
00:42:57,634 --> 00:42:59,901
Clearly was impatient.

967
00:42:59,901 --> 00:43:05,200
You know, he was declared a genius at 18 months.

968
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:06,200
Is that right?

969
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,868
Yes.

970
00:43:07,868 --> 00:43:11,667
Whereas I think people thought I was a genius when I -- I was

971
00:43:11,667 --> 00:43:12,667
old.

972
00:43:12,667 --> 00:43:13,667
I was 20.

973
00:43:13,667 --> 00:43:14,667
You know.

974
00:43:14,667 --> 00:43:16,667
At 20, my teachers liked me because I was really...

975
00:43:16,667 --> 00:43:19,133
Did they think of you as a genius when you were

976
00:43:19,133 --> 00:43:20,133
20?

977
00:43:20,133 --> 00:43:22,133
That I might do something.

978
00:43:22,133 --> 00:43:23,133
They did.

979
00:43:23,133 --> 00:43:25,133
You know, that I...

980
00:43:25,133 --> 00:43:27,534
They thought you had a spark of intelligence and

981
00:43:27,534 --> 00:43:29,601
will and impatience.

982
00:43:29,601 --> 00:43:31,334
Yes, impatience.

983
00:43:31,334 --> 00:43:34,534
And you know, that I was -- in a hurry.

984
00:43:34,534 --> 00:43:39,467
And you know, you know, I just...

985
00:43:39,467 --> 00:43:47,767
Has impatience ever caused you to have conflict

986
00:43:47,767 --> 00:43:48,901
about actions you took?

987
00:43:48,901 --> 00:43:49,901
In other words...

988
00:43:49,901 --> 00:43:50,901
Oh, sure.

989
00:43:50,901 --> 00:43:51,901
I mean, you know...

990
00:43:51,901 --> 00:43:54,868
You might trample over something or somebody in

991
00:43:54,868 --> 00:43:55,901
order to...

992
00:43:55,901 --> 00:43:58,434
I don't think I ever ruined someone else's

993
00:43:58,434 --> 00:44:01,167
career by my impatience, you know.

994
00:44:01,167 --> 00:44:03,834
What might you have done?

995
00:44:03,834 --> 00:44:07,267
Well, you know, you could put a graduate student

996
00:44:07,267 --> 00:44:10,634
on a problem that has a low probability of success.

997
00:44:10,634 --> 00:44:14,133
But if it succeeded, you know, it would be what I needed.

998
00:44:14,133 --> 00:44:19,434
So I never risked anyone else for my impatience.

999
00:44:19,434 --> 00:44:20,667
You know, you risk yourself.

1000
00:44:20,667 --> 00:44:23,067
Have you paid a price for your impatience?

1001
00:44:23,067 --> 00:44:26,000
I've been on very few committees.

1002
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,000
(LAUGHTER)

1003
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,234
I agree with that, absolutely.

1004
00:44:31,234 --> 00:44:33,234
OK.

1005
00:44:33,234 --> 00:44:35,234
Absolutely.

1006
00:44:35,234 --> 00:44:41,734
So, but I had some wonderful friends and a

1007
00:44:41,734 --> 00:44:42,934
wonderful wife.

1008
00:44:42,934 --> 00:44:50,000
The Cold Spring Harbor has been a wonderful place to live, and

1009
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,000
Cambridge, England was just, you know, unbelievably beautiful and

1010
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,100
of high quality.

1011
00:44:56,100 --> 00:45:00,534
So you know, I have seen the world at its best.

1012
00:45:00,534 --> 00:45:06,601
And you know, so you know, President Obama and I are both

1013
00:45:06,601 --> 00:45:10,334
South Side of Chicago people, you know.

1014
00:45:10,334 --> 00:45:14,334
And you started at the University of Chicago.

1015
00:45:14,334 --> 00:45:15,534
Yes.

1016
00:45:15,534 --> 00:45:16,534
Great education.

1017
00:45:16,534 --> 00:45:17,534
And...

1018
00:45:17,534 --> 00:45:20,734
How about the humanities, or you know, this

1019
00:45:20,734 --> 00:45:23,934
argument between the bridge between science and the

1020
00:45:23,934 --> 00:45:25,133
humanities that C.P.

1021
00:45:25,133 --> 00:45:26,334
Snow spoke to?

1022
00:45:26,334 --> 00:45:31,367
There is a big gap, but I love the humanities,

1023
00:45:31,367 --> 00:45:36,968
in the sense of art and music and literature.

1024
00:45:36,968 --> 00:45:40,901
And science is very much part of our culture as well as, you

1025
00:45:40,901 --> 00:45:43,968
know, it's a way of thinking and of getting knowledge.

1026
00:45:43,968 --> 00:45:53,300
I spend a lot of time reading London Review of Books, New York

1027
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:58,167
Review of Books, you know, just -- I don't spend as much time

1028
00:45:58,167 --> 00:45:59,367
reading the books.

1029
00:45:59,367 --> 00:46:01,801
I try and get the guts of the book because it will give you

1030
00:46:01,801 --> 00:46:02,801
ideas.

1031
00:46:02,801 --> 00:46:04,801
Do you like music?

1032
00:46:04,801 --> 00:46:05,834
Yes.

1033
00:46:05,834 --> 00:46:06,834
I have no talent whatsoever.

1034
00:46:06,834 --> 00:46:08,834
But you like it, I mean, music...

1035
00:46:08,834 --> 00:46:10,834
Oh, I love it, you know, virtuoso...

1036
00:46:10,834 --> 00:46:12,834
There is a sense that scientists have some

1037
00:46:12,834 --> 00:46:14,834
affinity for music, especially mathematicians.

1038
00:46:14,834 --> 00:46:17,367
Yeah, but you know, I think some music is so

1039
00:46:17,367 --> 00:46:21,901
complicated, you need almost a mathematician's mind to put

1040
00:46:21,901 --> 00:46:24,067
together Prokofiev or something like this.

1041
00:46:24,067 --> 00:46:30,067
So, but you know, my parents liked music, and I went to

1042
00:46:30,067 --> 00:46:33,901
children's concerts of the Chicago symphony.

1043
00:46:33,901 --> 00:46:38,868
So you know, I was -- you know, our house was filled with books.

1044
00:46:38,868 --> 00:46:43,033
And you know, we didn't have money to go to the Cubs games.

1045
00:46:43,033 --> 00:46:47,067
You listened on the radio, virtually every game, but your

1046
00:46:47,067 --> 00:46:49,434
money was spent on books.

1047
00:46:49,434 --> 00:46:50,934
My father was a Cubs fan.

1048
00:46:50,934 --> 00:46:51,934
(CROSSTALK)

1049
00:46:51,934 --> 00:46:53,934
So you became a Cubs fan.

1050
00:46:53,934 --> 00:46:55,934
And you know, I had this sort of Protestant

1051
00:46:55,934 --> 00:46:57,434
Catholic division.

1052
00:46:57,434 --> 00:47:00,300
And I think the White Sox were the Catholic team.

1053
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:05,100
And the Cubs were the North Side, which wasn't as Catholic

1054
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:06,100
as the South Side.

1055
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:09,901
Life has given you most of the things that you

1056
00:47:09,901 --> 00:47:11,067
would have wanted.

1057
00:47:11,067 --> 00:47:12,067
Yes.

1058
00:47:12,067 --> 00:47:13,100
Has it not?

1059
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:14,100
Yes.

1060
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:16,100
It's given you opportunity.

1061
00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:17,200
It's given you fame.

1062
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,767
It's given you.

1063
00:47:18,767 --> 00:47:21,934
A family I love.

1064
00:47:21,934 --> 00:47:23,534
Family.

1065
00:47:23,534 --> 00:47:25,100
Yes.

1066
00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:30,167
So -- but you know, there is a whole world of people which

1067
00:47:30,167 --> 00:47:32,067
don't have opportunity and...

1068
00:47:32,067 --> 00:47:33,567
Exactly.

1069
00:47:33,567 --> 00:47:35,601
Depending where they were born, often, right?

1070
00:47:35,601 --> 00:47:39,968
So over the current thing, I would gladly be

1071
00:47:39,968 --> 00:47:44,334
taxed on my superior health benefits in order to, you know,

1072
00:47:44,334 --> 00:47:48,734
that's one of issues that Obama should -- should those with

1073
00:47:48,734 --> 00:47:52,267
really high quality health-care plans be leveled off with those

1074
00:47:52,267 --> 00:47:54,534
who don't get such high employers.

1075
00:47:54,534 --> 00:47:55,968
And I think we should.

1076
00:47:55,968 --> 00:48:01,934
So, you know, I think in that sense, the fair treatment of

1077
00:48:01,934 --> 00:48:04,100
all our citizens, I feel very strongly about it.

1078
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:06,367
You know, when "Time" magazine did their

1079
00:48:06,367 --> 00:48:09,067
millennium issue and they looked back at 100 years and

1080
00:48:09,067 --> 00:48:11,934
they said who has been the most influential person,

1081
00:48:11,934 --> 00:48:15,067
influential, they chose Einstein.

1082
00:48:15,067 --> 00:48:16,067
Yes.

1083
00:48:16,067 --> 00:48:18,067
But they chose Einstein because of the power of

1084
00:48:18,067 --> 00:48:19,767
science is why they chose him.

1085
00:48:19,767 --> 00:48:23,901
And in particular, the enormous power

1086
00:48:23,901 --> 00:48:24,901
of physics.

1087
00:48:24,901 --> 00:48:27,400
Physics was the sort of queen of science.

1088
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,400
It was the science of the 20th, first half

1089
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,400
of the 20th century.

1090
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:31,400
Yes.

1091
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,200
And the last quarter of the 20th century,

1092
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:34,300
molecular biology.

1093
00:48:34,300 --> 00:48:35,300
Yes.

1094
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:37,300
What is it going to be for the 21st century?

1095
00:48:37,300 --> 00:48:39,300
I hope psychology.

1096
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:40,300
Do you really?

1097
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:41,300
Yes.

1098
00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:42,300
Psychology?

1099
00:48:42,300 --> 00:48:44,434
Yes, because I would love to be able to know

1100
00:48:44,434 --> 00:48:47,868
enough so many people wouldn't be depressed.

1101
00:48:47,868 --> 00:48:52,434
I think we have to, you know, depression is an awful thing.

1102
00:48:52,434 --> 00:48:55,200
But it has a genetic basis.

1103
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,834
Yes, but, you know, I would just like to, you

1104
00:48:58,834 --> 00:49:02,067
know, understand the basis of it enough, and you know, we're

1105
00:49:02,067 --> 00:49:06,200
raising money for still another meeting on depression at Cold

1106
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:07,200
Spring Harbor.

1107
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,634
But the convergence of psychology and

1108
00:49:10,634 --> 00:49:12,434
science is coming together.

1109
00:49:12,434 --> 00:49:13,767
Yes.

1110
00:49:13,767 --> 00:49:19,100
But it seems really that we will understand human beings better

1111
00:49:19,100 --> 00:49:20,734
so we treat them better.

1112
00:49:20,734 --> 00:49:24,701
A case in point I think is, you know, understanding what is now

1113
00:49:24,701 --> 00:49:28,534
called high intelligent autism, sort of Asperger's Syndrome,

1114
00:49:28,534 --> 00:49:31,467
where people just are socially inept.

1115
00:49:31,467 --> 00:49:35,567
But wizzes when you put them behind a computer.

1116
00:49:35,567 --> 00:49:45,334
And we have sort of --- thought it was their fault, you know,

1117
00:49:45,334 --> 00:49:47,567
that they didn't seek help.

1118
00:49:47,567 --> 00:49:52,434
And you know, sometimes they are socially inept and make

1119
00:49:52,434 --> 00:49:53,434
enemies.

1120
00:49:53,434 --> 00:50:01,200
And now I think you see all these people, it is not their

1121
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,067
fault that they don't talk to you.

1122
00:50:04,067 --> 00:50:06,734
They are just sort of afraid to talk to you.

1123
00:50:06,734 --> 00:50:08,901
They don't know how to talk to you.

1124
00:50:08,901 --> 00:50:12,167
And so, you have to go out and really help them.

1125
00:50:12,167 --> 00:50:14,234
So that is a new group of people.

1126
00:50:14,234 --> 00:50:17,767
And fortunately, you know, in the past, they had no jobs.

1127
00:50:17,767 --> 00:50:21,100
But now they can do work on the computer, and boy, do we need

1128
00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:22,100
them.

1129
00:50:22,100 --> 00:50:25,868
So you know, sort of -- you know, when I was a boy,

1130
00:50:25,868 --> 00:50:28,000
mathematicians were just odd people.

1131
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,067
You know, that was something -- it was sort of common-sense

1132
00:50:32,067 --> 00:50:33,067
remark.

1133
00:50:33,067 --> 00:50:34,067
Just, you know...

1134
00:50:34,067 --> 00:50:36,067
They were wired differently.

1135
00:50:36,067 --> 00:50:39,901
They were wired differently, and so they weren't

1136
00:50:39,901 --> 00:50:40,901
very social.

1137
00:50:40,901 --> 00:50:46,434
But you know, whether Bill Gates fits into this category, but

1138
00:50:46,434 --> 00:50:48,434
he's made an enormous contribution.

1139
00:50:48,434 --> 00:50:49,834
He's social.

1140
00:50:49,834 --> 00:50:54,267
Well, look, I am just saying -- I read things

1141
00:50:54,267 --> 00:50:57,734
where people put him under this rubric.

1142
00:50:57,734 --> 00:51:01,234
Some people as they approach their 80s and

1143
00:51:01,234 --> 00:51:07,801
especially if they know that the end is near, began to want

1144
00:51:07,801 --> 00:51:16,701
to reach out to people that they have had conflicts with.

1145
00:51:16,701 --> 00:51:18,701
You, for example, had a long-standing rift with E.O.

1146
00:51:18,701 --> 00:51:19,701
Wilson.

1147
00:51:19,701 --> 00:51:20,701
Yes.

1148
00:51:20,701 --> 00:51:21,701
But you guys...

1149
00:51:21,701 --> 00:51:23,701
Oh, we're great friends.

1150
00:51:23,701 --> 00:51:25,701
Great friends now.

1151
00:51:25,701 --> 00:51:26,701
Came back together.

1152
00:51:26,701 --> 00:51:27,701
Yes.

1153
00:51:27,701 --> 00:51:29,701
I haven't had that many enemies.

1154
00:51:29,701 --> 00:51:30,701
OK, fair enough.

1155
00:51:30,701 --> 00:51:32,701
The question was are there other people like E.O.

1156
00:51:32,701 --> 00:51:34,667
Wilson that you at some point think about...

1157
00:51:34,667 --> 00:51:36,667
There are some people whose politics dominate

1158
00:51:36,667 --> 00:51:37,667
their biology.

1159
00:51:37,667 --> 00:51:40,267
And they generally have been opponents of Ed Wilson.

1160
00:51:40,267 --> 00:51:42,133
They are opponents of me.

1161
00:51:42,133 --> 00:51:44,501
I can't find anything worthwhile about them.

1162
00:51:44,501 --> 00:51:46,300
I don't want to reach out.

1163
00:51:46,300 --> 00:51:47,300
(CROSSTALK)

1164
00:51:47,300 --> 00:51:49,300
Well, we won't even name them.

1165
00:51:49,300 --> 00:51:51,300
No, no, no, of course.

1166
00:51:51,300 --> 00:51:52,634
But I'm just saying that...

1167
00:51:52,634 --> 00:51:55,434
Their politics does not allow scientific

1168
00:51:55,434 --> 00:51:56,434
reasoning?

1169
00:51:56,434 --> 00:51:59,934
Well, you know, now I'm -- I just wish there

1170
00:51:59,934 --> 00:52:02,234
were more real Republicans around.

1171
00:52:02,234 --> 00:52:03,901
You know, I like them.

1172
00:52:03,901 --> 00:52:07,300
But you know, when I was a boy, I didn't.

1173
00:52:07,300 --> 00:52:11,701
I miss them because you just got a lot of phony Republicans now,

1174
00:52:11,701 --> 00:52:13,033
and they're Southern Democrats.

1175
00:52:13,033 --> 00:52:16,400
And they're not what, you know, my father's family was.

1176
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,767
Your father's family were Republicans.

1177
00:52:18,767 --> 00:52:20,100
Oh, solidly.

1178
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:23,801
My father was the only, you know, (INAUDIBLE), he was the

1179
00:52:23,801 --> 00:52:26,167
only son and he was a Democrat.

1180
00:52:26,167 --> 00:52:33,667
So I'm just trying to say that I am much more, you know, you

1181
00:52:33,667 --> 00:52:38,667
know, I have great affection for Bill Safire, well, you know.

1182
00:52:38,667 --> 00:52:40,667
And he was a wonderful man.

1183
00:52:40,667 --> 00:52:44,100
And you know, when I would read his columns, boy, they would

1184
00:52:44,100 --> 00:52:45,100
make me mad.

1185
00:52:45,100 --> 00:52:47,434
I hear you.

1186
00:52:47,434 --> 00:52:52,234
But now, I realize maybe he was right, many

1187
00:52:52,234 --> 00:52:53,234
of the cases.

1188
00:52:53,234 --> 00:52:55,234
So you know, he was a great American.

1189
00:52:55,234 --> 00:53:00,667
So I think in that extent, as you get older, you just seek out

1190
00:53:00,667 --> 00:53:09,033
these sort of petty things that divided you when you were

1191
00:53:09,033 --> 00:53:10,200
young.

1192
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:17,100
And so, yes, I think I'm, you know, I will always have a few

1193
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:19,701
people that I think still are standing in my way.

1194
00:53:19,701 --> 00:53:21,701
But -- but, you know, I like America.

1195
00:53:21,701 --> 00:53:23,100
America is a wonderful country.

1196
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:25,100
And you know, and I (INAUDIBLE) down on multi-nationalism, just

1197
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:29,100
because we seem to be forgetting how wonderful our own country

1198
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:30,634
is.

1199
00:53:30,634 --> 00:53:44,667
You know, and we really have to help Americans.

1200
00:53:44,667 --> 00:53:48,968
You know, it's not just -- there is a lot of parts of America

1201
00:53:48,968 --> 00:53:52,434
which should have a much better chance.

1202
00:53:52,434 --> 00:53:53,467
Thank you for coming.

1203
00:53:53,467 --> 00:53:55,334
Thank you very much.

1204
00:53:55,334 --> 00:53:59,334
James Watson for the hour.

1205
00:53:59,334 --> 00:54:00,834
Thank you for joining us.

1206
00:54:00,834 --> 00:54:01,868
See you next time.

1207
00:54:01,868 --> 
E1