1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,467 But first, Boris Yeltsin has arrived in New York 2 00:00:02,467 --> 00:00:04,801 to address the United Nations Security Council and meet with 3 00:00:04,801 --> 00:00:07,067 President Bush about further arms cuts. 4 00:00:07,067 --> 00:00:10,234 Joining me tonight to talk about those cuts, and the current 5 00:00:10,234 --> 00:00:13,434 situation in Russia is Vitaly Churkin, Spokesman for the 6 00:00:13,434 --> 00:00:15,534 Russian Foreign Ministry. 7 00:00:15,534 --> 00:00:18,200 It is very good to see an old friend back. 8 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,701 We began in interviews and talking to each other in 9 00:00:21,701 --> 00:00:24,968 Washington in the early 1980s, and it's a pleasure to see you. 10 00:00:24,968 --> 00:00:26,968 Thank you, Charlie. 11 00:00:26,968 --> 00:00:29,801 Let me begin by asking where you were during the 12 00:00:29,801 --> 00:00:32,934 coup, those dramatic events, and just recollect for me what in 13 00:00:32,934 --> 00:00:35,234 the world you thought was going to happen? 14 00:00:35,234 --> 00:00:38,067 Well, believe it or not, Charlie, I was 15 00:00:38,067 --> 00:00:40,667 vacationing in the Middle East. 16 00:00:40,667 --> 00:00:44,801 So I got the news practically on my way from Aleppo, Syria, to 17 00:00:44,801 --> 00:00:46,667 Beirut, Lebanon, of all places. 18 00:00:46,667 --> 00:00:52,033 And the first more or less clear news came to me in Beirut, when, 19 00:00:52,033 --> 00:00:56,133 together with our ambassador, we were watching Soviet television, 20 00:00:56,133 --> 00:00:58,968 which was received by our embassy in Beirut, and the 21 00:00:58,968 --> 00:01:00,968 famous press conference. 22 00:01:00,968 --> 00:01:04,033 I must confess, of course I realized immediately that 23 00:01:04,033 --> 00:01:08,200 something bad was happening in our country, and it was clear to 24 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,300 me what the nature of events was, but from that perspective, 25 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:14,367 I was not certain of the details. 26 00:01:14,367 --> 00:01:18,434 It was clear to me, from the outset, I had that feeling, that 27 00:01:18,434 --> 00:01:22,534 it would not last, but of course, I did not expect that it 28 00:01:22,534 --> 00:01:24,100 would last only three days. 29 00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:28,200 So in my mind, I was preparing myself for my return, and was 30 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,968 playing in my mind what I should do and what situations might 31 00:01:31,968 --> 00:01:32,968 come up. 32 00:01:32,968 --> 00:01:35,133 So that was psychologically quite an unpleasant experience. 33 00:01:35,133 --> 00:01:37,634 And when did you get back? 34 00:01:37,634 --> 00:01:41,100 I got back when the first airplane came to 35 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:45,167 Damascus to pick me up, and I had a ticket for that airplane, 36 00:01:45,167 --> 00:01:48,000 but it was already when everything was over with. 37 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,501 And had Bessmertnykh resigned by then? 38 00:01:50,501 --> 00:01:53,334 Yes, by then, we did not have a Foreign 39 00:01:53,334 --> 00:01:54,334 Minister. 40 00:01:54,334 --> 00:01:56,467 And then you got a new Foreign Minister, and you 41 00:01:56,467 --> 00:01:57,534 were spokesman for him. 42 00:01:57,534 --> 00:01:58,634 Yes. 43 00:01:58,634 --> 00:02:02,300 And then you had - were spokesman for 44 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:03,300 Shevardnadze again. 45 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:05,300 Shevardnadze again, yes. 46 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:07,300 And then you became spokesman for - VITALY 47 00:02:07,300 --> 00:02:09,300 New country, a new Foreign Ministry, and a new 48 00:02:09,300 --> 00:02:10,300 Foreign Minister, yes. 49 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:12,300 Would you stay in this job? 50 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:14,300 Well, that does not always depend on diplomats, 51 00:02:14,300 --> 00:02:16,300 where they stay, and probably it would be a good time for me to 52 00:02:16,300 --> 00:02:17,300 contemplate moving. 53 00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:19,868 Let me talk about this man, Yeltsin, who is here. 54 00:02:19,868 --> 00:02:24,567 Are we on - at a great moment in history, in a sense, when we 55 00:02:24,567 --> 00:02:29,100 think what nuclear weapons have meant, in terms of Cold War? 56 00:02:29,100 --> 00:02:32,968 Are we standing on the eve of an extraordinary significant 57 00:02:32,968 --> 00:02:37,067 destruction of nuclear weapons because of proposals that 58 00:02:37,067 --> 00:02:39,701 Yeltsin brings, and the receptivity by the Bush 59 00:02:39,701 --> 00:02:40,701 administration? 60 00:02:40,701 --> 00:02:42,367 Absolutely. 61 00:02:42,367 --> 00:02:46,067 I think that we have a great thing going, and the process, 62 00:02:46,067 --> 00:02:49,167 which was started by President Bush and President Gorbachev, 63 00:02:49,167 --> 00:02:52,367 you'll recall, last fall, is continuing now, at a really 64 00:02:52,367 --> 00:02:53,400 accelerated speed. 65 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,000 And we are going to witness great efforts put by our two 66 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,200 nations, not into building weapons, but merely, maybe more 67 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:01,767 in destroying those weapons. 68 00:03:01,767 --> 00:03:05,267 So I'm sure that very shortly, we'll see a quite different 69 00:03:05,267 --> 00:03:06,167 situation. 70 00:03:06,167 --> 00:03:09,000 Maybe we'll be able to do away with tactical nuclear weapons 71 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,067 altogether. 72 00:03:10,067 --> 00:03:12,467 We'll have a much smaller, much cheaper, and much more 73 00:03:12,467 --> 00:03:14,467 stabilizing strategic nuclear force. 74 00:03:14,467 --> 00:03:17,367 Do you expect the United States, though, to - one 75 00:03:17,367 --> 00:03:20,767 of the principal parts of what Gorbachev, what Yeltsin has said 76 00:03:20,767 --> 00:03:23,834 is that the United States and Soviet Union would jointly 77 00:03:23,834 --> 00:03:25,033 develop an SDI system. 78 00:03:25,033 --> 00:03:29,033 Do you think the United States will be receptive to that at all 79 00:03:29,033 --> 00:03:30,267 now, at this stage? 80 00:03:30,267 --> 00:03:32,734 I would prefer to be optimistic. 81 00:03:32,734 --> 00:03:34,734 I think we'll certainly discuss that. 82 00:03:34,734 --> 00:03:37,334 I'm sure that some level of cooperation is possible. 83 00:03:37,334 --> 00:03:41,000 In a way, the table is turned around, because, of course, we 84 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,067 all remember that it was President Reagan, who for the 85 00:03:44,067 --> 00:03:46,267 sake of argument, once put that forward. 86 00:03:46,267 --> 00:03:47,801 Yes he did. 87 00:03:47,801 --> 00:03:50,868 Now it's our turn to propose it seriously. 88 00:03:50,868 --> 00:03:55,167 But the good thing is that, I think on both sides, we are able 89 00:03:55,167 --> 00:03:57,934 and prepared to discuss the whole problem of strategic 90 00:03:57,934 --> 00:04:01,601 defense in a very open-minded and unbiased manner. 91 00:04:01,601 --> 00:04:04,067 This is the New York Times for Friday, January 92 00:04:04,067 --> 00:04:05,734 31, 1992. 93 00:04:05,734 --> 00:04:06,801 A story about Yeltsin. 94 00:04:06,801 --> 00:04:09,167 Seven months since he became President of Russia, and seven 95 00:04:09,167 --> 00:04:11,234 weeks since he led the dismantling of the Soviet Union, 96 00:04:11,234 --> 00:04:13,968 Boris Yeltsin remains an ambiguous and complex figure. 97 00:04:13,968 --> 00:04:17,634 A Democrat who rules by decree, a populace who risks draconian 98 00:04:17,634 --> 00:04:21,601 reform, a public politician who defies easy classification. 99 00:04:21,601 --> 00:04:24,834 A very good definition of a charismatic 100 00:04:24,834 --> 00:04:25,834 leader, I think. 101 00:04:25,834 --> 00:04:28,334 But nevertheless, because of some things we read 102 00:04:28,334 --> 00:04:32,000 in the Western press, there is the impression that some Western 103 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,100 governments are uneasy by what they call personality or erratic 104 00:04:37,100 --> 00:04:38,367 behavior. 105 00:04:38,367 --> 00:04:41,467 They reports of drinking, they read reports of disappearance, 106 00:04:41,467 --> 00:04:44,167 and they say, who is this man? 107 00:04:44,167 --> 00:04:45,167 And is he stable? 108 00:04:45,167 --> 00:04:48,634 Well, first, I think that in some cases, at 109 00:04:48,634 --> 00:04:51,767 least, there is some misunderstanding. 110 00:04:51,767 --> 00:04:54,300 Maybe some disconnect somewhere in communications. 111 00:04:54,300 --> 00:04:56,300 So things which are not unexpected back in Moscow are 112 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:58,300 perceived as something quite unexpected in the world. 113 00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:00,300 Not unexpected in Moscow? 114 00:05:00,300 --> 00:05:02,834 Which are expected in Moscow. 115 00:05:02,834 --> 00:05:08,501 Some appointments which were not there, are regarding as 116 00:05:08,501 --> 00:05:12,033 something which was firmly set, and therefore broken, et cetera, 117 00:05:12,033 --> 00:05:13,033 et cetera. 118 00:05:13,033 --> 00:05:17,667 It's no secret that now in Moscow, there is a situation 119 00:05:17,667 --> 00:05:21,367 when not all government institutions are functioning 120 00:05:21,367 --> 00:05:22,400 very smoothly. 121 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,067 So when they have those problems of communication from time to 122 00:05:25,067 --> 00:05:26,067 time. 123 00:05:26,067 --> 00:05:28,067 Is there some unease, though? 124 00:05:28,067 --> 00:05:29,067 Even in Moscow, about Yeltsin? 125 00:05:29,067 --> 00:05:32,567 Well, they will have a new personality, a very 126 00:05:32,567 --> 00:05:36,934 popular leader, and he is behaving, I think, the way he 127 00:05:36,934 --> 00:05:37,934 is. 128 00:05:37,934 --> 00:05:39,167 This is the man he is. 129 00:05:39,167 --> 00:05:42,767 I'm sure that he is listening to the concerns which are being 130 00:05:42,767 --> 00:05:45,901 expressed to him, and I think he said that he's basically taking 131 00:05:45,901 --> 00:05:46,901 that into account. 132 00:05:46,901 --> 00:05:48,901 This raises another question. 133 00:05:48,901 --> 00:05:50,467 You're at the Foreign Ministry. 134 00:05:50,467 --> 00:05:53,868 You have served in the Foreign Ministry at the US Embassy, and 135 00:05:53,868 --> 00:05:57,734 then as spokesman for a series of Foreign Ministers that I've 136 00:05:57,734 --> 00:05:58,734 mentioned. 137 00:05:58,734 --> 00:06:01,033 Here is a man who comes to power in Russia, at a time of dramatic 138 00:06:01,033 --> 00:06:03,033 change, obviously, and the most extraordinary change we have 139 00:06:03,033 --> 00:06:06,133 seen, perhaps, in the century, in terms of dismantling of an 140 00:06:06,133 --> 00:06:11,634 empire, yet he has not had any dealings in foreign affairs. 141 00:06:11,634 --> 00:06:13,868 That's not been a role that he's played. 142 00:06:13,868 --> 00:06:16,200 Can you be up to speed fast enough? 143 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,100 Does it leave the Foreign Ministry a little worried that 144 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:22,634 you can be up to speed fast enough to make the kinds of 145 00:06:22,634 --> 00:06:25,701 decisions that are called for in a fast-changing world? 146 00:06:25,701 --> 00:06:28,767 Well first, Charlie, I want to put out that 147 00:06:28,767 --> 00:06:32,534 President Yeltsin did have some international exposure, so he's 148 00:06:32,534 --> 00:06:36,868 not coming to his office a novice in international affairs. 149 00:06:36,868 --> 00:06:38,868 As party leader, or? 150 00:06:38,868 --> 00:06:40,868 This is not the case, no. 151 00:06:40,868 --> 00:06:41,868 He has been traveling. 152 00:06:41,868 --> 00:06:43,868 Before becoming President, he was Chairman of the Supreme 153 00:06:43,868 --> 00:06:46,601 Soviet, and even he made a couple of trips to the United 154 00:06:46,601 --> 00:06:49,100 States and some other countries, so it's not exactly - CHARLIE 155 00:06:49,100 --> 00:06:52,634 Some of which got him in trouble in the Soviet Union. 156 00:06:52,634 --> 00:06:57,968 But let me point out that the - even given 157 00:06:57,968 --> 00:07:01,968 all of those very dramatic changes, the transition from the 158 00:07:01,968 --> 00:07:06,100 Soviet Union to Russia has really happened very smoothly. 159 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:10,267 Russia was recognized as a continuing state to the Soviet 160 00:07:10,267 --> 00:07:11,267 Union very smoothly. 161 00:07:11,267 --> 00:07:13,567 And we have some problems with the Commonwealth. 162 00:07:13,567 --> 00:07:16,601 This is understandable, other countries of the Commonwealth, 163 00:07:16,601 --> 00:07:17,601 this is understandable. 164 00:07:17,601 --> 00:07:18,601 We're working on them. 165 00:07:18,601 --> 00:07:21,200 But generally speaking, I think we can be very satisfied, given 166 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,200 the complexity of the situation. 167 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,200 By the way, we act on the international arena. 168 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,200 So this is what is more important. 169 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,200 What are you worried about with respect - 170 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,200 you, as you look at the situation there, and with the 171 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,968 experience you've had, about the conflicts within the other 172 00:07:34,968 --> 00:07:39,801 republics, and whether that kind of civil war may spread, and 173 00:07:39,801 --> 00:07:41,100 reach Russia? 174 00:07:41,100 --> 00:07:44,367 Well, some of the developments are of course, 175 00:07:44,367 --> 00:07:46,167 very troublesome. 176 00:07:46,167 --> 00:07:48,167 Troublesome because - CHARLIE ROSE: Georgia. 177 00:07:48,167 --> 00:07:50,133 Georgia, Nagorno-Karabakh, or the 178 00:07:50,133 --> 00:07:52,267 Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict. 179 00:07:52,267 --> 00:07:54,367 They are countries which are very close to us. 180 00:07:54,367 --> 00:07:58,534 We've had, of course, being all of us, having been a part of the 181 00:07:58,534 --> 00:08:04,133 same country, we have tried to reach to them and help in those 182 00:08:04,133 --> 00:08:05,634 situations, whenever we can. 183 00:08:05,634 --> 00:08:09,801 But I don't really see those conflicts spilling over into the 184 00:08:09,801 --> 00:08:12,801 Commonwealth, because they have their particular history and 185 00:08:12,801 --> 00:08:13,934 their particular origin. 186 00:08:13,934 --> 00:08:16,234 For instance, the Armenia-Azerbaijan, they have 187 00:08:16,234 --> 00:08:21,133 their problem, I don't see how it can come over to the other 188 00:08:21,133 --> 00:08:22,634 areas of the Commonwealth. 189 00:08:22,634 --> 00:08:27,167 So a big civil war among the countries of the Commonwealth, I 190 00:08:27,167 --> 00:08:29,434 don't see that happening at all. 191 00:08:29,434 --> 00:08:33,601 What do you need from the United States, other 192 00:08:33,601 --> 00:08:37,834 than arms agreements, which will allow Yeltsin to take, I assume, 193 00:08:37,834 --> 00:08:41,734 those funds, and provide housing and food for the Army, and 194 00:08:41,734 --> 00:08:45,167 maintain the loyalty of the Army, which is one of the things 195 00:08:45,167 --> 00:08:49,033 that has been concerning leaders of the former Soviet Army. 196 00:08:49,033 --> 00:08:56,467 There's some concern, I think, with respect to the allegiance 197 00:08:56,467 --> 00:09:00,367 of that Army, you know? 198 00:09:00,367 --> 00:09:07,834 And whether they will listen to decisions made by Boris Yeltsin 199 00:09:07,834 --> 00:09:10,200 and the leadership in Russia. 200 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,000 Is that concerning other people in the Soviet Union? 201 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:13,968 In Russia? 202 00:09:13,968 --> 00:09:17,100 I don't see that as a major concern, and if 203 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:21,467 you follow the Soviet media, which is now a free press, they 204 00:09:21,467 --> 00:09:22,934 write all sorts of things. 205 00:09:22,934 --> 00:09:27,100 I don't think it was expressed as a major concern. 206 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:31,400 And I, again, after the experience of the August coup, I 207 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,534 don't see the armed forces as a political entity. 208 00:09:36,534 --> 00:09:38,767 But they have been politicized, because you 209 00:09:38,767 --> 00:09:42,000 had military officers serving in the Parliament, so this is a 210 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,033 politicized army. 211 00:09:43,033 --> 00:09:45,334 Well, I wouldn't say that the most 212 00:09:45,334 --> 00:09:48,767 glaring case of politicization came with the argument over the 213 00:09:48,767 --> 00:09:51,534 Black Sea fleet in Russia and the Ukraine. 214 00:09:51,534 --> 00:09:53,267 Yes they did. 215 00:09:53,267 --> 00:09:56,000 Where the military people found themselves 216 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,501 in a position to decide which allegiance they should take. 217 00:09:59,501 --> 00:10:03,634 So concern was expressed at that time that now they have to 218 00:10:03,634 --> 00:10:07,067 choose between Russia and the Ukraine, and they must start 219 00:10:07,067 --> 00:10:09,834 choosing between, for instance, the President and the 220 00:10:09,834 --> 00:10:11,434 Parliament, the President and the Prime Minister. 221 00:10:11,434 --> 00:10:14,868 And efforts were made in order to correct the situation. 222 00:10:14,868 --> 00:10:19,501 I don't see, of course, there may be all sorts of emotional 223 00:10:19,501 --> 00:10:21,968 moments because of the difficulties you have referred 224 00:10:21,968 --> 00:10:22,968 to. 225 00:10:22,968 --> 00:10:25,467 Social difficulties, and while they're cutting the military 226 00:10:25,467 --> 00:10:29,400 budget now very drastically, mostly it applies to military 227 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,067 procurements, which are being cut by 85% or something. 228 00:10:32,067 --> 00:10:33,067 Yeah. 229 00:10:33,067 --> 00:10:36,234 But the social element of the military budget, 230 00:10:36,234 --> 00:10:38,367 they are trying to beef up to the extent they can. 231 00:10:38,367 --> 00:10:43,634 Nevertheless, given all those difficulties and the possibility 232 00:10:43,634 --> 00:10:48,300 of some emotional moments like we saw during that meeting of 233 00:10:48,300 --> 00:10:49,300 officers in Moscow. 234 00:10:49,300 --> 00:10:50,300 Yes. 235 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,300 A week or ten days ago. 236 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:55,868 Again, the armed forces acting as a political force, I just 237 00:10:55,868 --> 00:11:00,100 don't see that happening in our country, now. 238 00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:04,834 Because, I mean, why are you --? 239 00:11:04,834 --> 00:11:08,534 Well, because it made it difficult to define 240 00:11:08,534 --> 00:11:11,667 it, but they tried to do that in August, in a situation where 241 00:11:11,667 --> 00:11:15,901 there was a unified command, clear channels of command in the 242 00:11:15,901 --> 00:11:18,501 armed forces, and it did not happen. 243 00:11:18,501 --> 00:11:23,534 The Army does not want to become a political tool, and act in a 244 00:11:23,534 --> 00:11:24,534 political capacity. 245 00:11:24,534 --> 00:11:28,834 Because immediately, they are going to be in confrontation 246 00:11:28,834 --> 00:11:31,133 with the people, and this is impossible. 247 00:11:31,133 --> 00:11:34,434 What do you expect from the United States? 248 00:11:34,434 --> 00:11:38,701 Because 85 - I read somewhere that some 84% of the aid that's 249 00:11:38,701 --> 00:11:42,634 come to the Soviet Union has come not from the United States, 250 00:11:42,634 --> 00:11:45,267 so it has not been in the lead. 251 00:11:45,267 --> 00:11:47,267 Does this disappoint the Russian people? 252 00:11:47,267 --> 00:11:49,267 Does it disappoint the Russian leadership? 253 00:11:49,267 --> 00:11:52,801 I do not detect such feelings among the people. 254 00:11:52,801 --> 00:11:55,434 It's good, we think, that aid is coming. 255 00:11:55,434 --> 00:11:59,033 Of course, we know that the Germans and maybe Italians are 256 00:11:59,033 --> 00:12:00,334 ahead of the pack. 257 00:12:00,334 --> 00:12:03,634 Especially the Germans, and something like 80% of the food 258 00:12:03,634 --> 00:12:05,300 help is coming from Germany. 259 00:12:05,300 --> 00:12:08,567 But we appreciate, we understand some of the difficulties the 260 00:12:08,567 --> 00:12:09,567 United States has. 261 00:12:09,567 --> 00:12:11,567 Domestic problems. 262 00:12:11,567 --> 00:12:12,567 Economic problems. 263 00:12:12,567 --> 00:12:14,567 Domestic problems, recession, et cetera, 264 00:12:14,567 --> 00:12:15,567 et cetera. 265 00:12:15,567 --> 00:12:17,767 We appreciate the effort which was undertaken in Washington to 266 00:12:17,767 --> 00:12:20,701 bring together all the possible donors of that aid. 267 00:12:20,701 --> 00:12:23,968 Does it, the recent conference there, does it 268 00:12:23,968 --> 00:12:27,534 mean that Russia may be coming closer to Europe? 269 00:12:27,534 --> 00:12:31,567 And the United States may wake up, and which you have a whole 270 00:12:31,567 --> 00:12:36,868 new geopolitical structure, with Russia much closer to Europe 271 00:12:36,868 --> 00:12:38,901 than it is to the United States? 272 00:12:38,901 --> 00:12:39,934 No. 273 00:12:39,934 --> 00:12:43,868 first, I think that the aid is an element, maybe an important 274 00:12:43,868 --> 00:12:47,334 element, but a short-term element in our relationship, 275 00:12:47,334 --> 00:12:52,234 which can not really determine the overall relationship between 276 00:12:52,234 --> 00:12:55,234 Russia and the United States, and Russia and Europe. 277 00:12:55,234 --> 00:12:58,267 We're certainly going to develop our links with European 278 00:12:58,267 --> 00:13:01,868 countries, feeling a part of Europe, but it is not going to 279 00:13:01,868 --> 00:13:03,868 be at the detriment of our relations with the United 280 00:13:03,868 --> 00:13:04,868 States. 281 00:13:04,868 --> 00:13:06,868 How does it feel for you, and you and I have 282 00:13:06,868 --> 00:13:08,868 talked about a lot of things, and I was in Moscow, and we had 283 00:13:08,868 --> 00:13:10,868 interesting conversation about how you felt about the changes, 284 00:13:10,868 --> 00:13:12,901 and how - what it meant to you personally, in a sense of being 285 00:13:12,901 --> 00:13:14,901 free. 286 00:13:14,901 --> 00:13:20,567 How does it feel to know that experiment didn't work, and that 287 00:13:20,567 --> 00:13:21,667 the Cold War is over? 288 00:13:21,667 --> 00:13:25,667 Positive feeling, I'd guess, but that Russia is not a superpower 289 00:13:25,667 --> 00:13:26,667 now? 290 00:13:26,667 --> 00:13:29,701 That somehow, the United States is the dominant power in the 291 00:13:29,701 --> 00:13:30,701 world? 292 00:13:30,701 --> 00:13:33,200 Does that leave any sense of --? 293 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,601 Well, Charlie, I think Russia is a superpower. 294 00:13:36,601 --> 00:13:38,701 Simply because it has nuclear weapons? 295 00:13:38,701 --> 00:13:42,367 Simply because it is a country of 200 million 296 00:13:42,367 --> 00:13:45,701 people occupying one-eighth of the land mass. 297 00:13:45,701 --> 00:13:47,701 But you don't deny that it's a different 298 00:13:47,701 --> 00:13:50,234 political dynamic now, with respect to the United States? 299 00:13:50,234 --> 00:13:52,534 It is different. 300 00:13:52,534 --> 00:13:55,267 I, for one, was never fascinated, particularly 301 00:13:55,267 --> 00:13:57,267 fascinated by the name superpower. 302 00:13:57,267 --> 00:14:00,567 When people, when the standards of living of people become equal 303 00:14:00,567 --> 00:14:03,067 to those of the United States, I'll be completely happy, even 304 00:14:03,067 --> 00:14:08,000 if we, in some other terms, become completely unequal with 305 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:09,834 the United States with some other countries. 306 00:14:09,834 --> 00:14:12,634 So the main thing for us now is to concentrate on the reform, 307 00:14:12,634 --> 00:14:16,033 concentrate on competing with other countries, like the United 308 00:14:16,033 --> 00:14:18,033 States, in other areas. 309 00:14:18,033 --> 00:14:21,267 Economies, standards of living, ecology, we are far behind. 310 00:14:21,267 --> 00:14:23,267 So I am not worried about nuclear weapons so much. 311 00:14:23,267 --> 00:14:25,534 I saw where Yeltsin had some objection to 312 00:14:25,534 --> 00:14:27,868 the fact that the President said, in the State of the Union, 313 00:14:27,868 --> 00:14:30,000 that the United States had won the Cold War. 314 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,234 The joke in the United States is that the Cold War is over and 315 00:14:33,234 --> 00:14:34,734 Japan and Germany won. 316 00:14:34,734 --> 00:14:36,067 Thank you very much. 317 00:14:36,067 --> 00:14:37,067 A pleasure to see you. 318 00:14:37,067 --> 00:14:38,901 Thank you, thank you Charlie. 319 00:14:38,901 --> 00:14:41,834 Vitaly Churkin, an old friend, spokesman for the 320 00:14:41,834 --> 00:14:43,467 Foreign Ministry of Russia. 321 00:14:43,467 --> 00:14:44,501 Back in a moment.