WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.501 The CIA in Guatemala 2 00:00:01.501 --> 00:00:03.234 We begin this evening with the story of 3 00:00:03.234 --> 00:00:05.000 Guatemala and the CIA connection. 4 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:07.567 Secretary of State Warren Christopher has announced 5 00:00:07.567 --> 00:00:10.267 that neither he nor President Clinton were 6 00:00:10.267 --> 00:00:12.534 aware of any CIA connection to a Guatemalan 7 00:00:12.534 --> 00:00:14.734 accused of murdering an American innkeeper and a 8 00:00:14.734 --> 00:00:16.634 guerrilla fighter who was married to 9 00:00:16.634 --> 00:00:19.033 an American woman. 10 00:00:19.033 --> 00:00:21.868 In Washington, Elliott Abrams joins us; also 11 00:00:21.868 --> 00:00:24.467 Robert Torricelli is here. 12 00:00:24.467 --> 00:00:27.200 The Congressman joins us, along with Allan Narin of 13 00:00:27.200 --> 00:00:29.968 the The Nation magazine as we begin this part of our 14 00:00:29.968 --> 00:00:32.300 followup to the CIA Guatemala story. 15 00:00:32.300 --> 00:00:34.567 You'll all remember that we took-- had some 16 00:00:34.567 --> 00:00:36.501 conversation about this with Jennifer Harbury and 17 00:00:36.501 --> 00:00:38.200 others a week ago. 18 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:39.968 I begin with Congressman Torricelli. 19 00:00:39.968 --> 00:00:42.067 Thank you for coming. 20 00:00:42.067 --> 00:00:44.868 Elliott, thank you for coming. 21 00:00:44.868 --> 00:00:48.234 Allan, it's good to have you here. 22 00:00:48.234 --> 00:00:51.000 Did Secretary of State Christopher say to you, at 23 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:53.334 a question from you, that he did not know if the CIA 24 00:00:53.334 --> 00:00:55.567 was continuing to fund 25 00:00:55.567 --> 00:00:59.901 Guatemalan military officials? 26 00:00:59.901 --> 00:01:03.634 I found it, Charlie, in my 27 00:01:03.634 --> 00:01:05.567 years in Washington to be the most 28 00:01:05.567 --> 00:01:07.501 extraordinary answer. 29 00:01:07.501 --> 00:01:09.467 I asked whether, indeed, the Secretary of State of 30 00:01:09.467 --> 00:01:11.667 our country knew, now that the United States has 31 00:01:11.667 --> 00:01:13.567 further suspended military assistance to Guatemala, 32 00:01:13.567 --> 00:01:15.501 whether or not there was a covert program by the 33 00:01:15.501 --> 00:01:17.200 intelligence community to fund 34 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:18.734 the Guatemalan military. 35 00:01:18.734 --> 00:01:20.400 He chose his words very carefully, and 36 00:01:20.400 --> 00:01:22.367 it was very clear. 37 00:01:22.367 --> 00:01:24.367 He doesn't know. 38 00:01:24.367 --> 00:01:26.100 How is that possible? 39 00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:27.667 That, knowing what questions he would face, 40 00:01:27.667 --> 00:01:29.334 he wouldn't be able to -- with the President's 41 00:01:29.334 --> 00:01:33.133 authority -- find out? Rep. 42 00:01:33.133 --> 00:01:35.667 Oh, I think President Clinton's 43 00:01:35.667 --> 00:01:38.100 going to find out, but I think the reasons the 44 00:01:38.100 --> 00:01:40.133 Secretary of State cannot answer that question are 45 00:01:40.133 --> 00:01:42.434 the same as why Bill Clinton was misled in what 46 00:01:42.434 --> 00:01:44.400 happened with the deaths of Michael DeVine and the 47 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:46.400 husband of Jennifer Harbury. 48 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:48.367 The President had been asking 49 00:01:48.367 --> 00:01:50.367 questions for months. 50 00:01:50.367 --> 00:01:52.834 The Administration wanted to know. 51 00:01:52.834 --> 00:01:55.200 The intelligence community simply would not reveal 52 00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:58.234 the truth. 53 00:01:58.234 --> 00:02:00.767 Take it from the time that your story, 54 00:02:00.767 --> 00:02:03.133 which appeared in The New York Times, in which you 55 00:02:03.133 --> 00:02:05.200 disclosed a letter to the President about this. 56 00:02:05.200 --> 00:02:07.234 What's happened since then? 57 00:02:07.234 --> 00:02:09.000 What's been the CIA response? 58 00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:10.834 Where are they? 59 00:02:10.834 --> 00:02:15.734 What new developments have taken place? Rep. 60 00:02:15.734 --> 00:02:18.367 Well, for the briefest of times, 61 00:02:18.367 --> 00:02:21.367 the Central Intelligence Agency argued that it did 62 00:02:21.367 --> 00:02:24.334 not know when, in fact, Jennifer Harbury's husband 63 00:02:24.334 --> 00:02:27.601 was killed or more details about Michael DeVine and 64 00:02:27.601 --> 00:02:30.767 would acknowledge little. 65 00:02:30.767 --> 00:02:33.667 But clearly, Bill Clinton must have been outraged 66 00:02:33.667 --> 00:02:36.567 because that story quickly began to unfold, and there 67 00:02:36.567 --> 00:02:40.000 was as close to an acknowledgement as you 68 00:02:40.000 --> 00:02:43.334 will get out of the intelligence community, 69 00:02:43.334 --> 00:02:46.067 that in fact this Colonel Alpirez, who we now know 70 00:02:46.067 --> 00:02:48.901 was responsible for both murders, not only was 71 00:02:48.901 --> 00:02:51.734 known to the CIA to be a murderer, but in fact was 72 00:02:51.734 --> 00:02:54.400 on the payroll. 73 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:57.133 And most startling -- almost unbelievable -- 74 00:02:57.133 --> 00:02:59.667 that months after they knew that he had killed an 75 00:02:59.667 --> 00:03:02.834 American citizen, he remained on the CIA 76 00:03:02.834 --> 00:03:05.701 payroll and, in fact, was paid, according to The New 77 00:03:05.701 --> 00:03:08.367 York Times, $60,000. 78 00:03:08.367 --> 00:03:10.267 Tell me what you have found out, Allan. 79 00:03:10.267 --> 00:03:12.133 You've got a story that's in The Nation magazine 80 00:03:12.133 --> 00:03:14.033 called '' 81 00:03:14.033 --> 00:03:15.934 CIA Death Squad: Americans have been directly involved in 82 00:03:15.934 --> 00:03:17.834 Guatemalan army 83 00:03:17.834 --> 00:03:20.200 killings.'' What can you add to this story before I 84 00:03:20.200 --> 00:03:22.734 go to Elliott in Washington? 85 00:03:22.734 --> 00:03:25.367 Alpirez is one 86 00:03:25.367 --> 00:03:28.367 colonel on the CIA payroll who committed two murders. 87 00:03:28.367 --> 00:03:31.367 From talking to both Guatemalan and U.S. 88 00:03:31.367 --> 00:03:34.100 operatives involved in this, it's clear that 89 00:03:34.100 --> 00:03:36.901 there are many, perhaps dozens, of Guatemalan 90 00:03:36.901 --> 00:03:39.501 military officers on the CIA payroll who have been 91 00:03:39.501 --> 00:03:41.968 involved in thousands of, of killings. 92 00:03:41.968 --> 00:03:44.033 The G-2, the military intelligence service which 93 00:03:44.033 --> 00:03:46.100 coordinates the assassinations and 94 00:03:46.100 --> 00:03:48.400 disappearances, their top officials have for years 95 00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:50.901 been paid by the CIA. 96 00:03:50.901 --> 00:03:53.234 I was able to learn the names of, of three of them 97 00:03:53.234 --> 00:03:55.501 who'd been on the payroll, as well as General Hector 98 00:03:55.501 --> 00:03:57.701 Gramajo, General Roberto Matta, two of the top 99 00:03:57.701 --> 00:04:01.601 officers, the closest U.S. 100 00:04:01.601 --> 00:04:04.133 proteges who've been directly involved in 101 00:04:04.133 --> 00:04:06.667 commanding massacres in the northwest highlands. 102 00:04:06.667 --> 00:04:09.200 Furthermore, there are actually U.S.- 103 00:04:09.200 --> 00:04:11.701 CIA agents who work directly inside the G-2. I was able to 104 00:04:11.701 --> 00:04:14.234 learn the names of two of them: Joe Jacarino and Randy Capister. 105 00:04:14.234 --> 00:04:16.501 They provide what's called technical 106 00:04:16.501 --> 00:04:18.968 assistance and advice. 107 00:04:18.968 --> 00:04:21.534 I was able to reach Colonel Alpirez on the 108 00:04:21.534 --> 00:04:24.000 phone in Guatemala. 109 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.334 He denied being involved in the DeVine and Bamaca 110 00:04:26.334 --> 00:04:28.567 killings, said the CIA wasn't paying him, but he 111 00:04:28.567 --> 00:04:31.000 talked rather extensively about how the CIA 112 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:33.334 essentially helps to run the G-2 with ongoing 113 00:04:33.334 --> 00:04:35.334 advice and American advisors right there 114 00:04:35.334 --> 00:04:37.334 inside this systematic killing operation. 115 00:04:37.334 --> 00:04:39.067 You recorded this conversation? 116 00:04:39.067 --> 00:04:40.901 No. 117 00:04:40.901 --> 00:04:42.501 We-- I, I took extensive notes on it. 118 00:04:42.501 --> 00:04:44.434 And it's not just the CIA. 119 00:04:44.434 --> 00:04:46.667 It's the Pentagon, the State Department, and the 120 00:04:46.667 --> 00:04:49.067 White House, as well. 121 00:04:49.067 --> 00:04:51.400 For example, I mean, here are some internal State 122 00:04:51.400 --> 00:04:53.634 Department records which indicate that during both 123 00:04:53.634 --> 00:04:56.534 the Bush and Clinton Administrations, after 124 00:04:56.534 --> 00:04:59.234 there was a supposed cutoff of military aid to 125 00:04:59.234 --> 00:05:02.000 Guatemala, the State Department authorized at 126 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:04.601 least 114 separate sales of pistols and rifles to 127 00:05:04.601 --> 00:05:07.000 Guatemala, that Guata-- the U.S. 128 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.334 military has been planning joint maneuvers with the 129 00:05:09.334 --> 00:05:11.334 Guatemalan military this spring. 130 00:05:11.334 --> 00:05:13.334 I mean, this is an across-the-board policy, 131 00:05:13.334 --> 00:05:15.334 and you have to hold the President 132 00:05:15.334 --> 00:05:17.067 accountable for that. 133 00:05:17.067 --> 00:05:18.901 Elliott, you were Assistant Secretary 134 00:05:18.901 --> 00:05:20.734 of State for Latin American Affairs during 135 00:05:20.734 --> 00:05:22.901 the Reagan Administration. 136 00:05:22.901 --> 00:05:24.734 Tell me what you make of this story, what you know 137 00:05:24.734 --> 00:05:27.133 about what went on during the Reagan Administration, 138 00:05:27.133 --> 00:05:29.667 and perhaps what you have learned about this story 139 00:05:29.667 --> 00:05:32.100 since it broke. 140 00:05:32.100 --> 00:05:34.634 I may not know as many facts about this as 141 00:05:34.634 --> 00:05:37.067 Bob Torricelli does, but from what I can see, there 142 00:05:37.067 --> 00:05:39.367 is a lot less here than meets the eye. 143 00:05:39.367 --> 00:05:41.367 The fact that the CIA maintains relationships 144 00:05:41.367 --> 00:05:43.367 with intelligence people and military people in 145 00:05:43.367 --> 00:05:45.100 Central America and throughout the world is 146 00:05:45.100 --> 00:05:47.400 not news. 147 00:05:47.400 --> 00:05:49.634 The fact that some of them are pretty unattractive 148 00:05:49.634 --> 00:05:51.801 people is not news. 149 00:05:51.801 --> 00:05:54.167 Whether this colonel in-- is, in fact, responsible 150 00:05:54.167 --> 00:05:56.467 for those murders, I'm not sure. 151 00:05:56.467 --> 00:05:58.434 Some people have been convicted for the murder 152 00:05:58.434 --> 00:06:00.400 of Mr. DeVine, so it's not clear to me that-- and, 153 00:06:00.400 --> 00:06:02.634 and he's not one of them-- it's not clear to me that 154 00:06:02.634 --> 00:06:04.801 he was involved in that. 155 00:06:04.801 --> 00:06:06.934 I don't think, on the basis of the facts I know, 156 00:06:06.934 --> 00:06:09.033 that the CIA found out about his involvement and 157 00:06:09.033 --> 00:06:11.100 sat on it. 158 00:06:11.100 --> 00:06:12.901 My information is that they did report it to 159 00:06:12.901 --> 00:06:15.067 Washington, at least to the Department of-- 160 00:06:15.067 --> 00:06:17.267 Reported it-- 161 00:06:17.267 --> 00:06:19.434 --Justice. 162 00:06:19.434 --> 00:06:21.601 --to the CIA in Washington. You're saying the 163 00:06:21.601 --> 00:06:23.300 bureau chief in Guatemala reported it back to Washington-- 164 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:25.000 And it was-- 165 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:26.701 --to Langley? 166 00:06:26.701 --> 00:06:28.400 And it was reported then by the CIA to the 167 00:06:28.400 --> 00:06:30.100 Justice Department. 168 00:06:30.100 --> 00:06:32.133 Now, that we had an ongoing CIA program in 169 00:06:32.133 --> 00:06:33.934 Guatemala at a time when there was a military 170 00:06:33.934 --> 00:06:35.767 cutoff, you can't do that without a finding that's 171 00:06:35.767 --> 00:06:37.667 got to be approved by the House and Senate 172 00:06:37.667 --> 00:06:39.334 Intelligence Committees. 173 00:06:39.334 --> 00:06:41.067 So the question that-- one question to ask is, ''If 174 00:06:41.067 --> 00:06:42.901 the intelligence committees didn't like 175 00:06:42.901 --> 00:06:44.734 this, why didn't they stop it?'' 176 00:06:44.734 --> 00:06:46.634 I just think that, before we start jumping up 177 00:06:46.634 --> 00:06:49.300 and down here and saying this is another case of 178 00:06:49.300 --> 00:06:51.801 the CIA out of control, here I think I might agree 179 00:06:51.801 --> 00:06:55.200 with Mr. Nairn that, that if this was a Bush and 180 00:06:55.200 --> 00:06:57.968 Clinton policy, then let's talk about the policy of 181 00:06:57.968 --> 00:07:00.801 the President in both cases, and let's not ta-- 182 00:07:00.801 --> 00:07:03.667 start talking about a rogue 183 00:07:03.667 --> 00:07:06.601 Well, let me just ask you a question, hypothetical. 184 00:07:06.601 --> 00:07:09.534 Would you, as a Assistant Secretary of State for 185 00:07:09.534 --> 00:07:12.234 Latin American Affairs, if you found out that our 186 00:07:12.234 --> 00:07:15.000 government was paying a man in the Guatemalan 187 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:17.567 military after it learned that he had been 188 00:07:17.567 --> 00:07:20.000 implicated -- this is a hypothetical -- in the 189 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:21.701 assassination of an American, or someone 190 00:07:21.701 --> 00:07:23.400 married to an American, would you be outraged? 191 00:07:23.400 --> 00:07:25.067 I would-- 192 00:07:25.067 --> 00:07:26.767 If they were paying him after they learned he'd 193 00:07:26.767 --> 00:07:28.467 been involved 194 00:07:28.467 --> 00:07:30.434 in the murder of Americans or 195 00:07:30.434 --> 00:07:32.400 people married to Americans? 196 00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:34.367 I would certainly be outraged in 197 00:07:34.367 --> 00:07:36.601 the DeVine case, which looks like the 198 00:07:36.601 --> 00:07:38.801 cold-blooded murder of an innocent American, and the 199 00:07:38.801 --> 00:07:40.934 notion that we would continue to employ such a 200 00:07:40.934 --> 00:07:43.033 person would give him and others in the Guatemalan 201 00:07:43.033 --> 00:07:45.100 military the sense that we just didn't care about the 202 00:07:45.100 --> 00:07:46.901 killing of American citizens. 203 00:07:46.901 --> 00:07:48.767 The Bamaca case is a different case. 204 00:07:48.767 --> 00:07:50.400 That guy was a guerrilla, and 205 00:07:50.400 --> 00:07:53.234 he was not an American. And-- 206 00:07:53.234 --> 00:07:54.767 Yeah, but he wasn't killed in, in battle. 207 00:07:54.767 --> 00:07:56.400 He was killed in prison. 208 00:07:56.400 --> 00:07:58.133 No. 209 00:07:58.133 --> 00:07:59.934 But it is a different case, and the 210 00:07:59.934 --> 00:08:01.534 responsibility that we have is to protect, above 211 00:08:01.534 --> 00:08:02.968 all, American citizens, not Guatemalan guerrillas. 212 00:08:02.968 --> 00:08:04.300 So it is a different case; a different kind of level 213 00:08:04.300 --> 00:08:06.934 of seriousness for the U.S. government. 214 00:08:06.934 --> 00:08:08.267 Allan. 215 00:08:08.267 --> 00:08:09.801 Charlie, you asked a hypothetical, how 216 00:08:09.801 --> 00:08:11.434 would Mr. Abrams react. 217 00:08:11.434 --> 00:08:13.400 In fact, we have the historical record. 218 00:08:13.400 --> 00:08:15.133 We can see how he and the other Reagan and Bush and 219 00:08:15.133 --> 00:08:18.767 Clinton Ad-- officials have reacted. And-- 220 00:08:18.767 --> 00:08:20.901 In the State Department or in the CIA or both? 221 00:08:20.901 --> 00:08:23.000 Across-- across the board. 222 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:25.334 And in the face of this systematic policy of 223 00:08:25.334 --> 00:08:27.567 slaughter by the, the Guatemalan military -- 224 00:08:27.567 --> 00:08:29.501 more than 110,000 civilians killed by that 225 00:08:29.501 --> 00:08:31.467 military since 1978, what Amnesty International has 226 00:08:31.467 --> 00:08:33.167 called ''a government program of political 227 00:08:33.167 --> 00:08:34.968 murder'' -- the U.S. 228 00:08:34.968 --> 00:08:36.801 has continued to provide covert assistance to the, 229 00:08:36.801 --> 00:08:38.434 to the G-2. 230 00:08:38.434 --> 00:08:40.167 They-- and they have continued, especially 231 00:08:40.167 --> 00:08:41.934 during the, the time of Mr. Abrams, to provide 232 00:08:41.934 --> 00:08:43.801 political aid and comfort. 233 00:08:43.801 --> 00:08:45.667 For example-- 234 00:08:45.667 --> 00:08:47.100 Charlie. 235 00:08:47.100 --> 00:08:48.534 --during the northwest highland massacres-- 236 00:08:48.534 --> 00:08:49.968 One second. 237 00:08:49.968 --> 00:08:51.400 --of the late '80s, when the Catholic Church 238 00:08:51.400 --> 00:08:52.834 said, ''Never in our history has it come to 239 00:08:52.834 --> 00:08:54.701 such grave extremes. 240 00:08:54.701 --> 00:08:56.601 It has reached the point of genocide--'' President 241 00:08:56.601 --> 00:08:58.534 Reagan went down, embraced Rios Montt, the dictator 242 00:08:58.534 --> 00:09:00.501 who was staging these massacres, and said he was 243 00:09:00.501 --> 00:09:02.434 getting a bum rap on human rights. 244 00:09:02.434 --> 00:09:04.400 In '85, when human rights leader Rova-- Rosario 245 00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:06.400 Gavoy was abducted by the army, raped and mutilated; 246 00:09:06.400 --> 00:09:08.367 her baby had his fingernails torn out, the 247 00:09:08.367 --> 00:09:10.367 Guatemalan military said, ''Oh, they died in a 248 00:09:10.367 --> 00:09:12.334 traffic accident.'' The human rights groups 249 00:09:12.334 --> 00:09:14.334 contacted Mr. Abrams, asked him about it. 250 00:09:14.334 --> 00:09:16.334 He wrote back-- this is his letter of reply-- he 251 00:09:16.334 --> 00:09:17.868 said, ''Yes, there is no evidence other than that 252 00:09:17.868 --> 00:09:19.434 they died in a traffic accident.'' 253 00:09:19.434 --> 00:09:20.968 Now-- 254 00:09:20.968 --> 00:09:22.534 This was a woman raped and mutilated, a baby with 255 00:09:22.534 --> 00:09:24.067 his fingernails torn out. 256 00:09:24.067 --> 00:09:25.868 I want to come to 257 00:09:25.868 --> 00:09:28.000 Congressman Torricelli-- 258 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:29.834 This is longstanding policy. 259 00:09:29.834 --> 00:09:31.434 --in a moment, but these are 260 00:09:31.434 --> 00:09:32.901 specific points raised by Allan having to-- 261 00:09:32.901 --> 00:09:34.267 I'm not-- 262 00:09:34.267 --> 00:09:35.200 --do with your-- 263 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:36.167 I'll tell you. Whatever-- 264 00:09:36.167 --> 00:09:37.100 --public conduct. 265 00:09:37.100 --> 00:09:38.033 --Allan Narin wants to do, Charlie, I'm not 266 00:09:38.033 --> 00:09:38.968 here to refight the cold war. I'm glad we won. 267 00:09:38.968 --> 00:09:40.067 Maybe he's not. 268 00:09:40.067 --> 00:09:41.133 What I'm here to say is we're 269 00:09:41.133 --> 00:09:42.167 talking not about U.S.-- 270 00:09:42.167 --> 00:09:43.200 Won against who? Won against what? 271 00:09:43.200 --> 00:09:44.234 --policy in the world. 272 00:09:44.234 --> 00:09:45.267 Won against those civilians the-- 273 00:09:45.267 --> 00:09:46.267 Wait a minute. 274 00:09:46.267 --> 00:09:47.267 --Guatemalan army was-- 275 00:09:47.267 --> 00:09:48.300 Wait a minute. 276 00:09:48.300 --> 00:09:49.300 --massacring? 277 00:09:49.300 --> 00:09:50.300 Wait a minute. 278 00:09:50.300 --> 00:09:51.300 Wait a minute. 279 00:09:51.300 --> 00:09:52.801 Wait a minute. 280 00:09:52.801 --> 00:09:54.434 We're not here to refight the cold war. 281 00:09:54.434 --> 00:09:56.400 We're here to talk about, I thought, a specific case 282 00:09:56.400 --> 00:09:58.634 in which an allegation is being made that the, the 283 00:09:58.634 --> 00:10:00.801 husband of an American, in another case, an American 284 00:10:00.801 --> 00:10:02.934 citizen, were killed, and there was a CIA connection 285 00:10:02.934 --> 00:10:05.033 with-- allegedly, with the person allegedly involved 286 00:10:05.033 --> 00:10:07.334 in it. 287 00:10:07.334 --> 00:10:09.334 Now, I'm happy to talk about that kind of thing. 288 00:10:09.334 --> 00:10:11.100 If Mr. Nairn thinks we should have been on the 289 00:10:11.100 --> 00:10:12.901 other side in Guatemala -- that is, we should have 290 00:10:12.901 --> 00:10:14.734 been in favor of a guerrilla victory -- I 291 00:10:14.734 --> 00:10:16.400 disagree with him. 292 00:10:16.400 --> 00:10:18.133 So you're, so you are then admitting 293 00:10:18.133 --> 00:10:19.934 that you were on the side of 294 00:10:19.934 --> 00:10:21.767 the Guatemalan military? 295 00:10:21.767 --> 00:10:23.667 I am admitting that it was the 296 00:10:23.667 --> 00:10:25.567 policy of the United States, under Democrats 297 00:10:25.567 --> 00:10:27.267 and Republicans, approved by Congress repeatedly, to 298 00:10:27.267 --> 00:10:28.767 oppose a communist guerrilla victory anywhere 299 00:10:28.767 --> 00:10:30.167 in Central America, including Guatemala. 300 00:10:30.167 --> 00:10:31.434 All right. 301 00:10:31.434 --> 00:10:32.667 Well, let me, let me-- 302 00:10:32.667 --> 00:10:33.667 A communist guerrilla victory. 303 00:10:33.667 --> 00:10:35.667 All right. I-- 304 00:10:35.667 --> 00:10:36.667 Ninety-five percent of these victims are 305 00:10:36.667 --> 00:10:37.701 civilians, peasant 306 00:10:37.701 --> 00:10:38.834 organizers, human rights leaders, priests-- 307 00:10:38.834 --> 00:10:39.968 I, I am happy-- 308 00:10:39.968 --> 00:10:40.901 --assassinated by the-- 309 00:10:40.901 --> 00:10:41.834 --to invite both of you-- 310 00:10:41.834 --> 00:10:42.767 --U.S.-backed Guatemalan army. 311 00:10:42.767 --> 00:10:43.701 I'm happy to invite both of you back to review 312 00:10:43.701 --> 00:10:44.634 Reagan and Bush Administration policy. 313 00:10:44.634 --> 00:10:46.067 Right now, I do want to stick to this point 314 00:10:46.067 --> 00:10:47.868 because there seems to be a difference in terms of 315 00:10:47.868 --> 00:10:49.734 what you said, Elliott Abrams, and what Robert 316 00:10:49.734 --> 00:10:51.868 Torricelli said about the specifics of this in terms 317 00:10:51.868 --> 00:10:55.501 of what-- you think that there's much to be made 318 00:10:55.501 --> 00:10:57.734 out of this, too much is being made out of this; 319 00:10:57.734 --> 00:11:00.000 and your point, in fact, you have-- had the most 320 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:01.534 accusatory things to say about the 321 00:11:01.534 --> 00:11:03.067 CIA being out of control-- Rep. Robert 322 00:11:03.067 --> 00:11:04.601 Well, in fairness-- 323 00:11:04.601 --> 00:11:06.100 --and engaged-- Rep. Robert Torricelli: --to 324 00:11:06.100 --> 00:11:07.634 Elliott, I think there-- there are some nuances to some of these 325 00:11:07.634 --> 00:11:09.167 points of 326 00:11:09.167 --> 00:11:11.467 which he may not be aware. 327 00:11:11.467 --> 00:11:13.667 When Michael DeVine was killed, soon thereafter, 328 00:11:13.667 --> 00:11:15.834 the Central Intelligence Agency had information 329 00:11:15.834 --> 00:11:17.968 that he was implicated in-- if not the direct 330 00:11:17.968 --> 00:11:20.300 death, they at least knew right away-- in the 331 00:11:20.300 --> 00:11:22.534 coverup of it. 332 00:11:22.534 --> 00:11:24.734 Months later, he continued on the payroll. 333 00:11:24.734 --> 00:11:26.901 When they learned that he was directly responsible 334 00:11:26.901 --> 00:11:29.000 for his death, they decided to 335 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.067 terminate the payments. 336 00:11:31.067 --> 00:11:33.133 But they met with him, paid him an additional 337 00:11:33.133 --> 00:11:35.167 $60,000, made a judgment not to refer this to 338 00:11:35.167 --> 00:11:37.200 prosecutorial authorities. 339 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.234 And although they may or may not have made payments 340 00:11:39.234 --> 00:11:41.267 after that-- 341 00:11:41.267 --> 00:11:43.267 Prosecutorial authorities in Guatemala or-- Rep. 342 00:11:43.267 --> 00:11:45.267 Or to inform-- inform the 343 00:11:45.267 --> 00:11:47.033 Justice Department-- 344 00:11:47.033 --> 00:11:48.601 Right. Rep. 345 00:11:48.601 --> 00:11:50.033 --at that point or the 346 00:11:50.033 --> 00:11:51.367 Guatemalan government. 347 00:11:51.367 --> 00:11:53.100 They did maintain a relationship with him 348 00:11:53.100 --> 00:11:54.667 after that point. 349 00:11:54.667 --> 00:11:56.334 This is in the death of an American. 350 00:11:56.334 --> 00:11:58.334 Now, there's an additional credibility problem for 351 00:11:58.334 --> 00:12:00.567 the United States government that goes 352 00:12:00.567 --> 00:12:02.767 beyond policy. 353 00:12:02.767 --> 00:12:04.901 In a proud moment of the Bush Administration, the 354 00:12:04.901 --> 00:12:07.000 Secretary of State comes forward and announces we 355 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:09.067 are going to suspend aid to Guatemala because they 356 00:12:09.067 --> 00:12:11.133 have not solved the Michael DeVine murder. 357 00:12:11.133 --> 00:12:13.167 And the Congress was, indeed, very pleased. 358 00:12:13.167 --> 00:12:15.200 Now we discover -- last week -- that the Central 359 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:17.234 Intelligence Agency, in a covert program, dollar for 360 00:12:17.234 --> 00:12:19.000 dollar replaced the public aid of the United States 361 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:20.834 government to Guatemala with its own covert 362 00:12:20.834 --> 00:12:22.467 foreign aid-- 363 00:12:22.467 --> 00:12:24.167 With the-- Rep. Robert Torricelli: --program. 364 00:12:24.167 --> 00:12:25.968 --knowledge of the State 365 00:12:25.968 --> 00:12:27.534 Department? Rep. 366 00:12:27.534 --> 00:12:29.234 It is not clear. 367 00:12:29.234 --> 00:12:30.767 And the Secretary of State of the United States still 368 00:12:30.767 --> 00:12:32.400 cannot answer that question. 369 00:12:32.400 --> 00:12:34.367 With the knowledge of the 370 00:12:34.367 --> 00:12:36.367 Intelligence Committees? 371 00:12:36.367 --> 00:12:37.868 I mean, there-- wasn't there a finding for that-- 372 00:12:37.868 --> 00:12:39.367 The oversight-- 373 00:12:39.367 --> 00:12:40.868 --program? 374 00:12:40.868 --> 00:12:42.400 --committee in the, in the Congress, did they-- 375 00:12:42.400 --> 00:12:43.901 or did they know-- Rep. 376 00:12:43.901 --> 00:12:45.734 Members of the-- 377 00:12:45.734 --> 00:12:47.634 --not know-- Rep. 378 00:12:47.634 --> 00:12:49.567 Members of the Intelligence 379 00:12:49.567 --> 00:12:51.234 Committee tell me they did not know, and, Elliott, 380 00:12:51.234 --> 00:12:52.334 what's important is your successor, Bernie Aronson, 381 00:12:52.334 --> 00:12:53.400 who was administering American policy to Latin 382 00:12:53.400 --> 00:12:54.501 America, says-- 383 00:12:54.501 --> 00:12:55.567 Who was a Democrat when appointed 384 00:12:55.567 --> 00:12:57.834 by the Bush Administration. Rep. 385 00:12:57.834 --> 00:12:58.934 He was a Democrat, but appointed 386 00:12:58.934 --> 00:13:00.033 by the Bush Administration. 387 00:13:00.033 --> 00:13:00.868 --did not know, and the American ambassador to 388 00:13:00.868 --> 00:13:01.968 Guatemala did not know. 389 00:13:01.968 --> 00:13:03.567 The State Department was maintaining a public 390 00:13:03.567 --> 00:13:05.000 policy; the Congress was told a policy. 391 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:06.334 We don't know whether or not President Bush even 392 00:13:06.334 --> 00:13:07.567 knew that his own policy was being subverted by the 393 00:13:07.567 --> 00:13:08.767 intelligence community. 394 00:13:08.767 --> 00:13:09.901 Bob, you know, the-- 395 00:13:09.901 --> 00:13:11.267 Just wait one second. 396 00:13:11.267 --> 00:13:12.767 I'll come right back to you. 397 00:13:12.767 --> 00:13:14.400 Go ahead, Elliott. 398 00:13:14.400 --> 00:13:16.133 Well, the, the head of the CIA in 399 00:13:16.133 --> 00:13:17.934 those days, if I recall correctly, was Judge 400 00:13:17.934 --> 00:13:19.767 William Webster, one of the most cautious and 401 00:13:19.767 --> 00:13:21.667 prudent men that's ever run the CIA. 402 00:13:21.667 --> 00:13:23.334 If what you're saying is true, Bob, if it's exactly 403 00:13:23.334 --> 00:13:25.067 right, then, then you had an operation here which 404 00:13:25.067 --> 00:13:26.868 was being concealed from Congress 405 00:13:26.868 --> 00:13:28.734 and the State Department. 406 00:13:28.734 --> 00:13:30.634 I would find-- maybe it's true, in which case it 407 00:13:30.634 --> 00:13:32.567 really is scandalous, but I'm going to wait until I 408 00:13:32.567 --> 00:13:34.033 find out that it is true because my experience is 409 00:13:34.033 --> 00:13:35.501 that there are a lot of people who conveniently 410 00:13:35.501 --> 00:13:37.000 say they didn't know what the 411 00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:38.467 CIA was doing: for example, in the case of mining 412 00:13:38.467 --> 00:13:39.968 the harbors in 413 00:13:39.968 --> 00:13:41.801 Nicaragua, where a lot of people on the Hill forgot 414 00:13:41.801 --> 00:13:43.667 what they were told. 415 00:13:43.667 --> 00:13:45.334 So maybe some people in the Intelligence 416 00:13:45.334 --> 00:13:46.834 Committees now all of a sudden have a memory 417 00:13:46.834 --> 00:13:48.200 lapse, and maybe some people in the State 418 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:49.467 Department do. 419 00:13:49.467 --> 00:13:50.934 It's a fact question. 420 00:13:50.934 --> 00:13:52.534 I can't answer it. 421 00:13:52.534 --> 00:13:53.968 But-- Rep. 422 00:13:53.968 --> 00:13:55.300 It's a fact question, Elliott, 423 00:13:55.300 --> 00:13:56.567 and, and here-- and either alternative, however, is 424 00:13:56.567 --> 00:13:58.000 extraordinarily troubling. 425 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.701 Yes. Rep. 426 00:14:01.701 --> 00:14:03.601 Either, (a), the United States 427 00:14:03.601 --> 00:14:05.267 government was maintaining on a point of principle it 428 00:14:05.267 --> 00:14:06.801 was canceling aid and George Bush signed a 429 00:14:06.801 --> 00:14:08.434 finding to allow it to go on covertly when he was 430 00:14:08.434 --> 00:14:10.133 taking credit for canceling it. 431 00:14:10.133 --> 00:14:11.934 There's one problem. 432 00:14:11.934 --> 00:14:13.767 Or, alternatively, George Bush thought he was 433 00:14:13.767 --> 00:14:15.667 canceling it, and the Central Intelligence 434 00:14:15.667 --> 00:14:17.334 Agency, on its-- had its own foreign policy and 435 00:14:17.334 --> 00:14:18.834 subverted the President's policy. 436 00:14:18.834 --> 00:14:20.434 Like Elliott, I don't know which one-- 437 00:14:20.434 --> 00:14:22.167 And Elliott says-- Rep. 438 00:14:22.167 --> 00:14:23.968 --it was. 439 00:14:23.968 --> 00:14:25.801 You are saying, Elliott, even-- 440 00:14:25.801 --> 00:14:27.434 even that you'd be surprised if that was 441 00:14:27.434 --> 00:14:29.133 true, and it would be scandalous if it was. 442 00:14:29.133 --> 00:14:32.100 Absolutely, Charlie. Rep. 443 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:33.667 It's one of the two. 444 00:14:33.667 --> 00:14:36.634 Right. Rep. 445 00:14:36.634 --> 00:14:38.067 And-- 446 00:14:38.067 --> 00:14:39.634 Let's look at reality here. 447 00:14:39.634 --> 00:14:41.634 In reality, we're not talking about two murders, 448 00:14:41.634 --> 00:14:43.400 one colonel. 449 00:14:43.400 --> 00:14:45.067 We're talking about a hun-- more than 100,000 450 00:14:45.067 --> 00:14:46.801 murders, an entire army, many of its top officers 451 00:14:46.801 --> 00:14:50.467 employees of the U.S. government. 452 00:14:50.467 --> 00:14:52.367 We're talking about crimes, and we're also 453 00:14:52.367 --> 00:14:54.267 talking about criminals, not just people like the 454 00:14:54.267 --> 00:14:56.200 Guatemalan colonels, but also the U.S. 455 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.167 agents who have been working with them and the 456 00:14:58.167 --> 00:15:02.100 higher level U.S. officials. 457 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:04.067 I mean, I think you have to be-- you have to apply 458 00:15:04.067 --> 00:15:06.067 uniform standards. 459 00:15:06.067 --> 00:15:08.067 President Bush one too-- once talked about putting 460 00:15:08.067 --> 00:15:10.033 Saddam Hussein on trial for crimes against 461 00:15:10.033 --> 00:15:12.033 humanity, Nuremberg-style tribunal. 462 00:15:12.033 --> 00:15:14.033 I think that's a good idea. 463 00:15:14.033 --> 00:15:15.801 But if you're serious, you have to be even-handed. 464 00:15:15.801 --> 00:15:17.334 If we look at a case like this, I have-- think we 465 00:15:17.334 --> 00:15:19.100 have to talk-- start talking about putting 466 00:15:19.100 --> 00:15:20.968 Guatemalan and U.S. 467 00:15:20.968 --> 00:15:22.968 officials on trial. 468 00:15:22.968 --> 00:15:24.734 I think someone like Mr. Abrams would be a fit 469 00:15:24.734 --> 00:15:26.567 subject for such a Nuremberg-style inquiry, 470 00:15:26.567 --> 00:15:28.167 but I agree with Mr. Abrams that Democrats 471 00:15:28.167 --> 00:15:29.901 would have to be in the dock with him. 472 00:15:29.901 --> 00:15:31.434 I, I-- 473 00:15:31.434 --> 00:15:33.067 The Congress has been in on this. 474 00:15:33.067 --> 00:15:34.567 The Congress approved the sale of 475 00:15:34.567 --> 00:15:35.934 16,000 M-16s to Guatemala. 476 00:15:35.934 --> 00:15:36.868 In '87 and '88-- 477 00:15:36.868 --> 00:15:37.834 All right. Hold on one second. 478 00:15:37.834 --> 00:15:38.767 I (unintelligible) because-- 479 00:15:38.767 --> 00:15:39.734 --they voted more military 480 00:15:39.734 --> 00:15:40.667 aid than the Republicans 481 00:15:40.667 --> 00:15:41.767 asked for. 482 00:15:41.767 --> 00:15:42.834 Again, I invite you and Elliott 483 00:15:42.834 --> 00:15:43.868 Abrams back to discuss what he 484 00:15:43.868 --> 00:15:44.901 did, but right now-- 485 00:15:44.901 --> 00:15:45.934 Thanks, Charlie, but I, I-- 486 00:15:45.934 --> 00:15:46.767 You-- 487 00:15:46.767 --> 00:15:47.734 --I want to respond to that. 488 00:15:47.734 --> 00:15:48.767 Go ahead, you want to speak to-- 489 00:15:48.767 --> 00:15:49.801 I just-- I mean-- 490 00:15:49.801 --> 00:15:50.834 --the question of you ought to be in the dock. 491 00:15:50.834 --> 00:15:51.868 It is ludicrous, it is ludicrous to respond to 492 00:15:51.868 --> 00:15:52.901 that kind of stupidity. 493 00:15:52.901 --> 00:15:54.167 This guy thinks we were on the wrong side 494 00:15:54.167 --> 00:15:55.400 in the cold war. 495 00:15:55.400 --> 00:15:56.534 Maybe he personally was on the wrong side. 496 00:15:56.534 --> 00:15:57.634 I am one of the many millions of American-- 497 00:15:57.634 --> 00:15:58.734 All right. 498 00:15:58.734 --> 00:15:59.701 Mr. Abrams, you were-- 499 00:15:59.701 --> 00:16:00.667 I don't-- 500 00:16:00.667 --> 00:16:01.634 --who (crosstalk) to win. 501 00:16:01.634 --> 00:16:02.634 --on the wrong side in supporting the massacre 502 00:16:02.634 --> 00:16:03.601 of, of peasants and-- 503 00:16:03.601 --> 00:16:04.701 All right. What-- 504 00:16:04.701 --> 00:16:05.767 --organizers and anyone who dared to-- 505 00:16:05.767 --> 00:16:06.834 --I want to do is the fo-- I want-- 506 00:16:06.834 --> 00:16:07.868 --speak. 507 00:16:07.868 --> 00:16:08.901 --to ask the following question. 508 00:16:08.901 --> 00:16:09.934 Absolutely. And that's a crime. 509 00:16:09.934 --> 00:16:11.234 That's a crime, Mr. Abrams, for which 510 00:16:11.234 --> 00:16:12.434 people should be tried. 511 00:16:12.434 --> 00:16:13.300 You have read this-- 512 00:16:13.300 --> 00:16:14.167 Why don't you-- yeah-- 513 00:16:14.167 --> 00:16:15.067 --article-- 514 00:16:15.067 --> 00:16:15.934 --put all the American officials who won the 515 00:16:15.934 --> 00:16:16.801 cold war in the dock. 516 00:16:16.801 --> 00:16:17.868 All right. You have read 517 00:16:17.868 --> 00:16:18.901 this article. Rep. 518 00:16:18.901 --> 00:16:19.901 I have read the article. 519 00:16:19.901 --> 00:16:21.000 Yeah. 520 00:16:21.000 --> 00:16:22.501 Did you find anything that your information 521 00:16:22.501 --> 00:16:24.367 contradicts in this article by Allan Narin in 522 00:16:24.367 --> 00:16:26.267 The Nation magazine? 523 00:16:26.267 --> 00:16:28.200 You have said it's the talk of 524 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:32.100 Washington, this article. Rep. 525 00:16:32.100 --> 00:16:34.067 Every day this story has 526 00:16:34.067 --> 00:16:36.067 surpassed expectations of the day before, even in 527 00:16:36.067 --> 00:16:38.033 Washington, where people tend to be cynical on 528 00:16:38.033 --> 00:16:40.033 these, these things. 529 00:16:40.033 --> 00:16:42.033 What this article suggests to us is rather than a few 530 00:16:42.033 --> 00:16:44.000 Guatemalan military officers who have abused 531 00:16:44.000 --> 00:16:46.000 rights, that indeed the entire military leadership 532 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.634 of Guatemala may be rife with U.S. informants. 533 00:16:50.634 --> 00:16:53.033 And, and-- and also that there are 534 00:16:53.033 --> 00:16:55.100 disturbing connections between American agents in 535 00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:56.868 Guatemala and the activities of what can be 536 00:16:56.868 --> 00:17:01.200 called nothing more than killer squads. Yes? 537 00:17:01.200 --> 00:17:03.667 Yes. Correct. 538 00:17:03.667 --> 00:17:08.734 Rep. 539 00:17:08.734 --> 00:17:11.067 There is death squad activity in 540 00:17:11.067 --> 00:17:13.334 which the, the intelligence communities 541 00:17:13.334 --> 00:17:15.501 of the United States have been deeply involved. 542 00:17:15.501 --> 00:17:17.667 I, I don't want to get into this debate about the 543 00:17:17.667 --> 00:17:19.767 Guatemalan civil war. 544 00:17:19.767 --> 00:17:21.834 I only want to say this, that the United States had 545 00:17:21.834 --> 00:17:24.033 no role in being this deeply involved in the 546 00:17:24.033 --> 00:17:26.167 Guatemalan military, being, being this involved 547 00:17:26.167 --> 00:17:28.267 in these death squad activities. 548 00:17:28.267 --> 00:17:30.334 There was no effort to separate ourselves. 549 00:17:30.334 --> 00:17:32.400 I think when all is said and done, we are going to 550 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.467 find that there have been rogue operations within 551 00:17:34.467 --> 00:17:36.501 the United States intelligence community 552 00:17:36.501 --> 00:17:38.501 outside of the control of even the director of 553 00:17:38.501 --> 00:17:40.534 Central Intelligence. 554 00:17:40.534 --> 00:17:42.534 Guatemala has been handled as a backwater of the 555 00:17:42.534 --> 00:17:44.567 intelligence community of the United States, its own 556 00:17:44.567 --> 00:17:46.567 private preserve. 557 00:17:46.567 --> 00:17:50.567 For what objective? Rep. 558 00:17:50.567 --> 00:17:52.567 I think we're headed for some very 559 00:17:52.567 --> 00:17:54.567 startling weeks ahead. 560 00:17:54.567 --> 00:17:56.567 To learn what? 561 00:17:56.567 --> 00:17:58.567 I mean, tell me what it is that, that was at stake 562 00:17:58.567 --> 00:18:00.567 here, and what is going to be so startling that might 563 00:18:00.567 --> 00:18:02.334 be discovered. 564 00:18:02.334 --> 00:18:04.133 Give me a preview of what you think 565 00:18:04.133 --> 00:18:07.901 is around the corner. Rep. 566 00:18:07.901 --> 00:18:09.834 I think that there were operations 567 00:18:09.834 --> 00:18:11.767 of the intelligence community, of individuals 568 00:18:11.767 --> 00:18:13.701 in that community, that were engaged in activities 569 00:18:13.701 --> 00:18:15.667 beyond the-- the policies and the scope of the 570 00:18:15.667 --> 00:18:17.400 United States government for a variety of purposes. 571 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:18.968 That's as much as I'm going to say, but I think 572 00:18:18.968 --> 00:18:20.601 we're headed here-- 573 00:18:20.601 --> 00:18:22.100 What kind of 574 00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:23.734 activities? Rep. 575 00:18:23.734 --> 00:18:26.534 --for some startling revelations. 576 00:18:26.534 --> 00:18:28.033 Without naming names, what kinds 577 00:18:28.033 --> 00:18:31.400 of activities? Rep. 578 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:33.200 I think there were a variety of 579 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:34.801 illegal activities taking place here. 580 00:18:34.801 --> 00:18:36.501 This is more than giving money to 581 00:18:36.501 --> 00:18:38.267 people who are going out killing Americans or, or 582 00:18:38.267 --> 00:18:39.834 spouses of Americans. 583 00:18:39.834 --> 00:18:41.267 You're talking about Americans who you believe 584 00:18:41.267 --> 00:18:42.868 might have been, in some cases, involved in 585 00:18:42.868 --> 00:18:46.300 committing the acts themselves? Rep. 586 00:18:46.300 --> 00:18:47.801 I don't believe that the likes of, 587 00:18:47.801 --> 00:18:49.033 of a Webster or, or a Gates or a 588 00:18:49.033 --> 00:18:50.467 Woolsey, the directors-- 589 00:18:50.467 --> 00:18:52.033 All directors of the CIA. Rep. 590 00:18:52.033 --> 00:18:53.467 --of the Central Intelligence 591 00:18:53.467 --> 00:18:55.033 Agency, would be condoning or even knowledgeable of 592 00:18:55.033 --> 00:18:56.734 the kinds of activities that we're now hearing 593 00:18:56.734 --> 00:18:58.467 about occurred in Guatemala. 594 00:18:58.467 --> 00:19:00.300 I assume you would 595 00:19:00.300 --> 00:19:02.167 agree with that, Elliott-- 596 00:19:02.167 --> 00:19:04.067 Well, I, I-- 597 00:19:04.067 --> 00:19:05.734 --that all this-- 598 00:19:05.734 --> 00:19:07.501 We'll find out. 599 00:19:07.501 --> 00:19:08.868 --could take place without it being-- 600 00:19:08.868 --> 00:19:10.267 Let's say, if they were not aware-- 601 00:19:10.267 --> 00:19:11.634 --reported up the line to the director. 602 00:19:11.634 --> 00:19:13.033 If all of this happened, and none of them were 603 00:19:13.033 --> 00:19:14.400 aware, one has to say, ''What kind of 604 00:19:14.400 --> 00:19:16.234 managers were they?'' 605 00:19:16.234 --> 00:19:18.133 I would urge-- I would urge Bob Torricelli to 606 00:19:18.133 --> 00:19:19.801 stick to the facts and to avoid the kind of crackpot 607 00:19:19.801 --> 00:19:21.267 theories that we're getting from Mr. Nairn. 608 00:19:21.267 --> 00:19:22.901 If you stick to the facts, there may be quite enough 609 00:19:22.901 --> 00:19:26.400 to get people's attention. Rep. 610 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:27.834 Well, I'm, I'm trying to stick-- 611 00:19:27.834 --> 00:19:29.234 Yeah, but let me-- I, I also-- Rep. 612 00:19:29.234 --> 00:19:30.667 --to-- 613 00:19:30.667 --> 00:19:32.100 --have to say that, that 614 00:19:32.100 --> 00:19:33.534 Allan Narin is a distinguished 615 00:19:33.534 --> 00:19:35.334 reporter, who won the George 616 00:19:35.334 --> 00:19:37.200 Polk Award last year. 617 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:39.067 So, I mean, you know, I don't want him 618 00:19:39.067 --> 00:19:41.000 characterized on this broadcast as a crackpot. 619 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:42.934 I mean, you can-- 620 00:19:42.934 --> 00:19:44.501 Well, Charlie-- 621 00:19:44.501 --> 00:19:46.100 --have a personal argument about what-- 622 00:19:46.100 --> 00:19:47.667 --Charlie, Charlie, when a guy tells me-- 623 00:19:47.667 --> 00:19:49.234 --what he says about you 624 00:19:49.234 --> 00:19:50.834 specifically, but-- go ahead. 625 00:19:50.834 --> 00:19:52.567 --when a guy tells me that he 626 00:19:52.567 --> 00:19:54.100 thinks that the entire American leadership during 627 00:19:54.100 --> 00:19:55.767 the cold war needs to have a Nuremberg 628 00:19:55.767 --> 00:19:57.267 trial, he's a crackpot. 629 00:19:57.267 --> 00:19:58.901 Okay. 630 00:19:58.901 --> 00:20:00.234 I mean, I, I would-- 631 00:20:00.234 --> 00:20:01.534 Well-- 632 00:20:01.534 --> 00:20:02.868 Point well taken. 633 00:20:02.868 --> 00:20:04.200 It's mis-- it's Mr. Abrams' right to, to say 634 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:05.534 whatever he wants, but the 635 00:20:05.534 --> 00:20:07.100 facts speak for themselves. 636 00:20:07.100 --> 00:20:08.767 And in the case of Guatemala, you have this 637 00:20:08.767 --> 00:20:10.267 ongoing pattern of murder which has 638 00:20:10.267 --> 00:20:11.634 been public record. 639 00:20:11.634 --> 00:20:12.901 The Catholic Church in Guatemala 640 00:20:12.901 --> 00:20:14.133 has documented it. 641 00:20:14.133 --> 00:20:15.300 All the human rights groups have documented it. 642 00:20:15.300 --> 00:20:16.400 And on the public level, not even talking about the 643 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:17.501 covert level, year after year, the U.S. 644 00:20:17.501 --> 00:20:18.567 has continued to provide all different kinds of aid 645 00:20:18.567 --> 00:20:19.601 to the Guatemalan military. 646 00:20:19.601 --> 00:20:20.634 Right now, the Clinton-- it's the Clinton 647 00:20:20.634 --> 00:20:21.601 Administration that's talking about a joint 648 00:20:21.601 --> 00:20:22.734 maneuver with the Guatemalan army. 649 00:20:22.734 --> 00:20:24.133 It's the State Department that was licensing these 650 00:20:24.133 --> 00:20:25.834 114 pistol and, and rifle sales. 651 00:20:25.834 --> 00:20:27.501 The idea of a rogue operation is really 652 00:20:27.501 --> 00:20:28.934 preposterous when you have this kind of systematic 653 00:20:28.934 --> 00:20:30.200 ongoing program that stretches back over years, 654 00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:33.234 over both Democratic and Republican Administrations. 655 00:20:33.234 --> 00:20:34.901 I've got a couple of-- I have one 656 00:20:34.901 --> 00:20:36.667 last question. 657 00:20:36.667 --> 00:20:38.234 Robert Torricelli, I think you know this better than 658 00:20:38.234 --> 00:20:39.934 anyone else. 659 00:20:39.934 --> 00:20:41.434 One, what's happened to 660 00:20:41.434 --> 00:20:43.067 Colonel Alpirez? Rep. 661 00:20:43.067 --> 00:20:44.534 Colonel Alpirez remains in the 662 00:20:44.534 --> 00:20:45.901 Guatemalan military. 663 00:20:45.901 --> 00:20:47.167 He is claiming that he never received payments 664 00:20:47.167 --> 00:20:48.367 from the United States. 665 00:20:48.367 --> 00:20:49.501 He said that to Allan in 666 00:20:49.501 --> 00:20:51.634 their phone conversation. Rep. 667 00:20:51.634 --> 00:20:52.968 He's threatening libel suits. 668 00:20:52.968 --> 00:20:54.467 I suggested he come to the United States under oath 669 00:20:54.467 --> 00:20:56.067 with threat of perjury or write to the State 670 00:20:56.067 --> 00:20:57.801 Department and ask that his file be released. 671 00:20:57.801 --> 00:20:59.601 And what's the-- Rep. 672 00:20:59.601 --> 00:21:01.434 His-- in fact, the question of 673 00:21:01.434 --> 00:21:03.300 whether he received payment is not seriously 674 00:21:03.300 --> 00:21:05.234 debated in Washington. 675 00:21:05.234 --> 00:21:07.167 Charlie, what I think people should know, 676 00:21:07.167 --> 00:21:09.100 though, of, of real concern about this is this 677 00:21:09.100 --> 00:21:11.067 debate that we're having here may never be settled. 678 00:21:11.067 --> 00:21:14.033 As you know, we have had informants now from the 679 00:21:14.033 --> 00:21:16.033 National Security Agency that have written to me, 680 00:21:16.033 --> 00:21:18.033 communicated with other news media in Washington-- 681 00:21:18.033 --> 00:21:20.033 And a letter on 682 00:21:20.033 --> 00:21:22.033 NSA stationery. Rep. Robert Torricelli: On NSA stationery, 683 00:21:22.033 --> 00:21:24.033 that the files and computer records regarding army and CIA 684 00:21:24.033 --> 00:21:26.267 activities in Guatemala this week were being 685 00:21:26.267 --> 00:21:28.434 systematically destroyed. 686 00:21:28.434 --> 00:21:30.567 So whether or not there was knowledge, whether or 687 00:21:30.567 --> 00:21:32.667 not the activities I'm suggesting might have 688 00:21:32.667 --> 00:21:34.734 occurred, the fact is we may never know and 689 00:21:34.734 --> 00:21:36.534 therefore never learn any lessons about civilian 690 00:21:36.534 --> 00:21:38.133 control of the CIA. 691 00:21:38.133 --> 00:21:39.934 Any fear you're out on-- too far on 692 00:21:39.934 --> 00:21:43.934 a limb on this? Rep. 693 00:21:43.934 --> 00:21:45.901 From the day this began, I was 694 00:21:45.901 --> 00:21:47.901 afraid I was too far out on a limb, and every day I 695 00:21:47.901 --> 00:21:49.901 wake up to find the limb has moved 696 00:21:49.901 --> 00:21:51.901 way out beyond me. 697 00:21:51.901 --> 00:21:53.901 This is moving very quickly, but I am aware of 698 00:21:53.901 --> 00:21:55.667 the fact that, given the sources we now have, that 699 00:21:55.667 --> 00:21:57.467 the evidence may be destroyed, and we may 700 00:21:57.467 --> 00:21:59.334 never know. 701 00:21:59.334 --> 00:22:01.200 Okay. 702 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:03.133 Robert Torricelli, a Congressman in the United 703 00:22:03.133 --> 00:22:05.067 States, from New Jersey, a Democrat; Allan Narin from 704 00:22:05.067 --> 00:22:06.767 The Nation magazine; Elliott Abrams, former 705 00:22:06.767 --> 00:22:08.300 Assistant Secretary of State for Latin American 706 00:22:08.300 --> 00:22:09.968 Affairs in the Reagan Administration, thank you 707 00:22:09.968 --> 00:22:11.701 very much, a pleasure. 708 00:22:11.701 --> 00:22:13.234 Last word to you, Elliott. 709 00:22:13.234 --> 00:22:14.901 Anything you want to add to this? 710 00:22:14.901 --> 00:22:16.667 I would just urge-- 711 00:22:16.667 --> 00:22:18.467 Since you're in Washington. 712 00:22:18.467 --> 00:22:20.067 --I would just urge Bob Torricelli, 713 00:22:20.067 --> 00:22:21.534 again, the facts may be dynamic enough, and let's 714 00:22:21.534 --> 00:22:23.133 just all stick to the facts and go no further 715 00:22:23.133 --> 00:22:24.801 than they take us. 716 00:22:24.801 --> 00:22:26.601 All right. 717 00:22:26.601 --> 00:22:28.167 This is mass murder. 718 00:22:28.167 --> 00:22:29.601 This country should not be supporting it. 719 00:22:29.601 --> 00:22:30.934 If Americans knew about it, they wouldn't stand 720 00:22:30.934 --> 00:22:32.234 for it. 721 00:22:32.234 --> 00:22:33.734 All right. 722 00:22:33.734 --> 00:22:35.534 Thank you all. 723 00:22:35.534 --> 00:22:37.601 We'll be right back. 724 00:22:37.601 --> 00:22:39.701 Frank Israel is here. 725 00:22:39.701 --> 00:22:41.701 He is a terrific architect from Los Angeles, and 726 00:22:41.701 --> 00:22:43.434 we'll talk about his work and his ideas about 727 00:22:43.434 --> 00:22:46.634 architect-- he's been associated with some of 728 00:22:46.634 --> 00:22:48.767 the great architects in America.