WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.934 I'm pleased to welcome PATRICK TYLER, former Beijing bureau 2 00:00:00.934 --> 00:00:03.834 chief for the New York Times. 3 00:00:03.834 --> 00:00:06.667 He's the author of a new book, A Great Wall, Six 4 00:00:06.667 --> 00:00:09.400 Presidents and China. 5 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:11.834 Also here, JOHN HOLDEN, president of the National 6 00:00:11.834 --> 00:00:13.968 Committee on U.S.-China Relations, a non-profit group 7 00:00:13.968 --> 00:00:16.400 that encourages understanding of China and the United States 8 00:00:16.400 --> 00:00:19.267 among citizens of both countries. 9 00:00:19.267 --> 00:00:21.667 Thank you both for coming. 10 00:00:21.667 --> 00:00:24.234 When you sat down here and I said, ''Let's get the book out 11 00:00:24.234 --> 00:00:27.234 here,'' you said, ''This is the book that I wish I could have 12 00:00:27.234 --> 00:00:29.767 read.'' You know? 13 00:00:29.767 --> 00:00:32.267 Giving you the benefit of the fact that you are the author 14 00:00:32.267 --> 00:00:34.767 of this book, what is it you wish you had known when you went 15 00:00:34.767 --> 00:00:37.267 to China? 16 00:00:37.267 --> 00:00:39.801 The political biography of all six presidents 17 00:00:39.801 --> 00:00:42.300 and how 18 00:00:42.300 --> 00:00:46.567 they came to terms, how they came to understand China, and 19 00:00:46.567 --> 00:00:50.033 how they maneuvered against their China problem, both 20 00:00:50.033 --> 00:00:52.868 internationally, but in our domestic politics. 21 00:00:52.868 --> 00:00:55.701 Resulting in not a very clear 22 00:00:55.701 --> 00:00:58.534 and clarity of policy? 23 00:00:58.534 --> 00:01:01.334 Oh, resulting in the fact that 24 00:01:01.334 --> 00:01:04.167 each president has 25 00:01:04.167 --> 00:01:07.601 at times been in flight from conservative or liberal members 26 00:01:07.601 --> 00:01:11.434 in Congress who are upset about this or that aspect of China 27 00:01:11.434 --> 00:01:15.467 policy, whether it's trade or proliferation or human rights. 28 00:01:15.467 --> 00:01:19.234 Each president has had to grapple with that, including 29 00:01:19.234 --> 00:01:22.334 President Nixon, who -- after all -- went to China just months 30 00:01:22.334 --> 00:01:25.167 after Teddy Kennedy made China and rapprochement with China an 31 00:01:25.167 --> 00:01:28.000 issue for his prospective candidacy, of course, which fell 32 00:01:28.000 --> 00:01:30.634 apart after Chappaquidick. 33 00:01:30.634 --> 00:01:33.467 Is Richard Nixon-- is Richard Nixon the 34 00:01:33.467 --> 00:01:35.834 president they admire the most because he was there at the 35 00:01:35.834 --> 00:01:38.434 historic moment of opening China? 36 00:01:38.434 --> 00:01:40.601 He took the step, and it was 37 00:01:40.601 --> 00:01:42.968 a courageous step. 38 00:01:42.968 --> 00:01:45.534 And they-- I think they admire President Carter also because he 39 00:01:45.534 --> 00:01:47.968 completed that step. 40 00:01:47.968 --> 00:01:50.701 What is it -- do you think, Patrick -- that the 41 00:01:50.701 --> 00:01:53.167 Chinese, when they look at the United States, what is it that 42 00:01:53.167 --> 00:01:55.901 they want out of the relationship? 43 00:01:55.901 --> 00:01:58.968 Is it, as the ambassador said, a relationship for mutual 44 00:01:58.968 --> 00:02:02.367 benefit to both? 45 00:02:02.367 --> 00:02:05.267 Or, as Bob Kagan, a relationship in which they want 46 00:02:05.267 --> 00:02:07.667 to dominate in the-- in their own region and secondly only 47 00:02:07.667 --> 00:02:09.767 want to do those things that will inure to their benefit? 48 00:02:09.767 --> 00:02:11.701 Right. 49 00:02:11.701 --> 00:02:13.434 Well, it's complex. 50 00:02:13.434 --> 00:02:15.133 I mean, they admire us. 51 00:02:15.133 --> 00:02:17.334 They're scared of us. 52 00:02:17.334 --> 00:02:19.601 They want from us. 53 00:02:19.601 --> 00:02:22.434 They want technology transfer. 54 00:02:22.434 --> 00:02:25.234 Deng Xiaoping came to America in 1971 and said, ''I'll take all 55 00:02:25.234 --> 00:02:28.367 the technology that you dare to sell me. 56 00:02:28.367 --> 00:02:31.567 That's what we want.'' And, when you were talking about the 57 00:02:31.567 --> 00:02:34.567 way they looked at Russia and they analyze Russia's history, 58 00:02:34.567 --> 00:02:37.400 they see the trap that Russia and the Soviet Union got into by 59 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.634 militarizing their society, by putting all of their economic 60 00:02:40.634 --> 00:02:43.367 eggs in a military empire. 61 00:02:43.367 --> 00:02:46.033 And they saw that that collapsed. 62 00:02:46.033 --> 00:02:48.267 And so economic development is the prime objective of Chinese 63 00:02:48.267 --> 00:02:50.200 society and of the leadership. 64 00:02:50.200 --> 00:02:51.834 And that's why we shouldn't 65 00:02:51.834 --> 00:02:53.534 necessarily fear them militarily. 66 00:02:53.534 --> 00:02:55.534 That's my point. 67 00:02:55.534 --> 00:02:57.534 Is that in our interest? 68 00:02:57.534 --> 00:02:59.534 Or is that not in our interest? 69 00:02:59.534 --> 00:03:02.200 For them to have economic development so that they take 70 00:03:02.200 --> 00:03:04.934 their place among the community of nations? 71 00:03:04.934 --> 00:03:07.601 Absolutely because the consequences of 72 00:03:07.601 --> 00:03:10.634 China's failure in the next century are more serious than 73 00:03:10.634 --> 00:03:13.934 the-- than the scare scenarios you hear from people who talk 74 00:03:13.934 --> 00:03:17.367 about the consequences of China's rise. 75 00:03:17.367 --> 00:03:20.634 If China collapsed -- a nation of a billion-three people -- and 76 00:03:20.634 --> 00:03:23.334 started an exodus of refugees and depression. 77 00:03:23.334 --> 00:03:26.300 All of Asia would be undermined, hundreds of millions, billions 78 00:03:26.300 --> 00:03:29.400 of people would be affected by the failure of China 79 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:32.067 in the next century. 80 00:03:32.067 --> 00:03:34.534 Our environment, our economy would be affected by it. 81 00:03:34.534 --> 00:03:36.667 There are consequences going both ways but more on the 82 00:03:36.667 --> 00:03:38.501 failure of China. 83 00:03:38.501 --> 00:03:40.901 Where do you see the bilateral 84 00:03:40.901 --> 00:03:43.167 relationship going? 85 00:03:43.167 --> 00:03:45.100 And where should it go? 86 00:03:45.100 --> 00:03:47.267 It's been at a terrible trough this summer, and 87 00:03:47.267 --> 00:03:49.834 I think the ambassador's absolutely correct that it will 88 00:03:49.834 --> 00:03:52.934 be moving ahead. 89 00:03:52.934 --> 00:03:56.200 But it's going to be-- What we need in this country, to help 90 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:59.200 things go along, is a re-energized focus on defining 91 00:03:59.200 --> 00:04:02.000 what our priorities are in the relationship and the building of 92 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.767 a consensus that will support a president in his policies 93 00:04:04.767 --> 00:04:07.100 towards China. 94 00:04:07.100 --> 00:04:09.400 That's something that-- 95 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:11.734 Consensus, that would be? 96 00:04:11.734 --> 00:04:14.033 That would be-- that would rank the various 97 00:04:14.033 --> 00:04:16.367 things that we want in the relationship and bring more 98 00:04:16.367 --> 00:04:18.634 coherence that I think would be-- would enable us to 99 00:04:18.634 --> 00:04:21.000 negotiate better with China. 100 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:23.334 It would lay out a framework that they 101 00:04:23.334 --> 00:04:25.567 would be able to understand. 102 00:04:25.567 --> 00:04:28.567 Right now, what we have is a hodge-podge. 103 00:04:28.567 --> 00:04:31.634 One moment it's human rights. 104 00:04:31.634 --> 00:04:34.167 Another moment it's non-proliferation. 105 00:04:34.167 --> 00:04:36.868 The Chinese are really-- have trouble where we're coming from. 106 00:04:36.868 --> 00:04:39.133 And I think it's our job to try to-- 107 00:04:39.133 --> 00:04:41.801 Speak with one voice? 108 00:04:41.801 --> 00:04:45.300 Speak with-- Well, more or less with one 109 00:04:45.300 --> 00:04:48.734 voice, anyway. 110 00:04:48.734 --> 00:04:51.567 And it's the Chinese job, as they get more freedom in their 111 00:04:51.567 --> 00:04:54.534 media and a more-- a society that's more -- how shall we say? 112 00:04:54.534 --> 00:04:57.000 -- has more disparate voices in it, try to manage that as well 113 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.367 in their own country. 114 00:04:59.367 --> 00:05:01.634 One thing that has always 115 00:05:01.634 --> 00:05:04.734 concerned me about China. 116 00:05:04.734 --> 00:05:08.300 It seems that there's an element of paranoia there -- paranoia 117 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:11.834 about the United States, paranoia about the world in a 118 00:05:11.834 --> 00:05:15.267 sense, paranoia about the threat of democracy, paranoia about a 119 00:05:15.267 --> 00:05:18.300 free media, paranoia that somehow, if we don't keep a 120 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:21.200 tight lid on things, we could lose our power. 121 00:05:21.200 --> 00:05:23.667 Now, that's a leadership kind of a-- 122 00:05:23.667 --> 00:05:26.133 I think it's a-- 123 00:05:26.133 --> 00:05:28.601 Is that true? 124 00:05:28.601 --> 00:05:31.067 I think it is absolutely true. The Chinese 125 00:05:31.067 --> 00:05:33.501 Communist Party leadership knows that there's a 126 00:05:33.501 --> 00:05:36.334 history of grievances that have been built up in that society 127 00:05:36.334 --> 00:05:38.968 that go back 30 years. 128 00:05:38.968 --> 00:05:41.701 People have lost family members to famine because of crazy 129 00:05:41.701 --> 00:05:44.567 policy-induced economic programs instituted by Mao in the '50s 130 00:05:44.567 --> 00:05:47.234 and '60s. 131 00:05:47.234 --> 00:05:50.167 There are people who have lost family members in prison or who 132 00:05:50.167 --> 00:05:53.300 have been treated unfairly, who've had the families divided. 133 00:05:53.300 --> 00:05:56.400 So, there are religious grievances. 134 00:05:56.400 --> 00:05:59.434 There's a built-up well of grievances, and that's why they 135 00:05:59.434 --> 00:06:02.234 maintain this authoritarian control and see every effort at 136 00:06:02.234 --> 00:06:05.267 -- external effort, especially, from the United States -- over 137 00:06:05.267 --> 00:06:08.667 promoting human rights as a covert operation to destabilize 138 00:06:08.667 --> 00:06:12.100 the Communist Party and topple them. 139 00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:15.601 So-- but here is the question also that comes up 140 00:06:15.601 --> 00:06:19.133 and, John, jump in on this-- It is this notion that is part of 141 00:06:19.133 --> 00:06:22.567 the view of sort of the American establishment that, if we can 142 00:06:22.567 --> 00:06:25.801 open up trade, if in somehow the whole breath of fresh air that 143 00:06:25.801 --> 00:06:28.901 comes in from those kind of relationships, it'll flow over 144 00:06:28.901 --> 00:06:31.734 and impact their opening up of their society. 145 00:06:31.734 --> 00:06:34.100 There'll be more of freedom rising, more democracy. 146 00:06:34.100 --> 00:06:36.534 They'll be more comfortable with the outside. 147 00:06:36.534 --> 00:06:39.100 Oh, I think that's already been happening. 148 00:06:39.100 --> 00:06:41.968 And it's clear. 149 00:06:41.968 --> 00:06:44.634 I've lived in China in the early '80s and again in the mid-'90s. 150 00:06:44.634 --> 00:06:47.133 And the society is an awful lot more open than it used to be. 151 00:06:47.133 --> 00:06:49.834 And I was also in Taiwan during the rule of the KMT, when Chiang 152 00:06:49.834 --> 00:06:52.334 Kai-shek was in power, and it was 153 00:06:52.334 --> 00:06:54.734 extraordinarily authoritarian. 154 00:06:54.734 --> 00:06:56.767 So, these kinds of developments in the Chinese 155 00:06:56.767 --> 00:06:58.868 context can take place. 156 00:06:58.868 --> 00:07:01.234 In China, it's gonna take longer 'cause 157 00:07:01.234 --> 00:07:03.501 it's a bigger country. 158 00:07:03.501 --> 00:07:06.501 But I think, if you talk to Chinese intelligentsia, they're 159 00:07:06.501 --> 00:07:09.334 gonna tell you that they recognize that their political 160 00:07:09.334 --> 00:07:11.934 institutions will need some changing. 161 00:07:11.934 --> 00:07:13.667 Now, where that leads exactly and how and when-- 162 00:07:13.667 --> 00:07:15.367 Right. And, well-- 163 00:07:15.367 --> 00:07:17.100 And how-- 164 00:07:17.100 --> 00:07:18.801 And what kind of change do they perceive their 165 00:07:18.801 --> 00:07:20.534 political institutions will need? 166 00:07:20.534 --> 00:07:23.033 Well, already they've allowed the rise of a 167 00:07:23.033 --> 00:07:25.901 whole slew-- I would say-- I think there was several million 168 00:07:25.901 --> 00:07:28.300 of these non-governmental organizations, which deal with 169 00:07:28.300 --> 00:07:30.801 certain social issues outside the control of the government. 170 00:07:30.801 --> 00:07:32.901 And this has not yet moved into the political realm, 171 00:07:32.901 --> 00:07:35.100 as Pat just mentioned. 172 00:07:35.100 --> 00:07:38.167 But it's not inconceivable to me that this will 173 00:07:38.167 --> 00:07:41.167 happen at one point. 174 00:07:41.167 --> 00:07:43.734 It seems to me, Patrick, that there is such a 175 00:07:43.734 --> 00:07:46.300 natural reason for them to be in favor, as they are in sending 176 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:48.868 their sons and daughters to American universities, as they 177 00:07:48.868 --> 00:07:51.434 are in wanting American products to come 178 00:07:51.434 --> 00:07:54.000 over because it benefits 179 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:58.267 their balance of payments. 180 00:07:58.267 --> 00:08:01.734 It seems to me such a strong incentive for them not to allow 181 00:08:01.734 --> 00:08:04.834 the kind of right-sentiment -- from the Congress and other 182 00:08:04.834 --> 00:08:10.300 places -- that views them, you know, as some version of a 183 00:08:10.300 --> 00:08:14.934 hostile power. 184 00:08:14.934 --> 00:08:17.601 They have their own 185 00:08:17.601 --> 00:08:20.267 domestic politics. And-- 186 00:08:20.267 --> 00:08:22.934 It's all about domestic politics. 187 00:08:22.934 --> 00:08:25.601 In their own party, you'll hear the same voices 188 00:08:25.601 --> 00:08:28.267 -- ''You're weak. 189 00:08:28.267 --> 00:08:30.767 You're not tough enough on Clinton. 190 00:08:30.767 --> 00:08:33.167 You're letting those Americans manipulate you, lead you by the 191 00:08:33.167 --> 00:08:35.467 nose.'' And Jiang Zemin is a prisoner of a very large 192 00:08:35.467 --> 00:08:37.701 collective leadership. 193 00:08:37.701 --> 00:08:39.868 He's the president, but he is not a powerful figure on the 194 00:08:39.868 --> 00:08:42.000 stage of Chinese leaders over the last 40 years. 195 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.100 But he doesn't fear Li Peng 'cause that battle 196 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:46.167 has been won, has it not? 197 00:08:46.167 --> 00:08:48.200 No, he does fear him. 198 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.267 Li Peng is number two on the standing 199 00:08:50.267 --> 00:08:52.033 committee of the Politburo. 200 00:08:52.033 --> 00:08:53.868 He's number two in power in the inner circle of the party. 201 00:08:53.868 --> 00:08:55.767 So, he stands prepared to push him out of the 202 00:08:55.767 --> 00:08:57.734 way if he can? 203 00:08:57.734 --> 00:08:59.701 If he could, but he can't. 204 00:08:59.701 --> 00:09:01.300 And Li Peng is always there ready to stick his finger in 205 00:09:01.300 --> 00:09:02.901 whose-ever ribs who says, ''We need to move closer or make 206 00:09:02.901 --> 00:09:04.501 concession to America.'' 207 00:09:04.501 --> 00:09:06.133 Then is what's required both a wiser 208 00:09:06.133 --> 00:09:07.734 understanding of the domestic 209 00:09:07.734 --> 00:09:09.400 politics of both countries. 210 00:09:09.400 --> 00:09:11.234 We in the United States have to understand what are the domestic 211 00:09:11.234 --> 00:09:13.100 constraints on President Zemin. 212 00:09:13.100 --> 00:09:14.934 Absolutely. 213 00:09:14.934 --> 00:09:16.734 And the Chinese have to understand what are the 214 00:09:16.734 --> 00:09:18.567 domestic constraints of a separation of power in America. 215 00:09:18.567 --> 00:09:20.367 That's absolutely correct, and 216 00:09:20.367 --> 00:09:22.200 that's the-- one of 217 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:24.601 the central subjects that our committee works on is to try to 218 00:09:24.601 --> 00:09:26.701 get into that, understand in both countries and communicate 219 00:09:26.701 --> 00:09:28.968 about that central issue. 220 00:09:28.968 --> 00:09:31.167 This relationship is driven by 221 00:09:31.167 --> 00:09:33.067 domestic politics in both countries. 222 00:09:33.067 --> 00:09:35.100 And, during the Cold War, you could-- you could overcome 223 00:09:35.100 --> 00:09:37.367 domestic politics. 224 00:09:37.367 --> 00:09:39.801 You can't anymore. 225 00:09:39.801 --> 00:09:42.100 And we've now got the sorting-out of all these other 226 00:09:42.100 --> 00:09:44.367 issues that ping on relationship. 227 00:09:44.367 --> 00:09:46.767 And it's very hard to lead in either capital. 228 00:09:46.767 --> 00:09:48.834 Yeah, but -- I mean -- it seems to me that 229 00:09:48.834 --> 00:09:51.234 that's the modern reality that we have to do-- whether it's 230 00:09:51.234 --> 00:09:53.734 Eastern Europe, if it's in the Soviet Union-- I mean, Russia or 231 00:09:53.734 --> 00:09:56.167 wherever it is. 232 00:09:56.167 --> 00:09:58.267 You have to recognize what are the domestic constraints on 233 00:09:58.267 --> 00:10:00.434 people that you're trying to make a deal with-- You know, I 234 00:10:00.434 --> 00:10:02.567 guess it was Rabin once said, ''You know, you don't negotiate 235 00:10:02.567 --> 00:10:04.667 with your friends. 236 00:10:04.667 --> 00:10:07.367 You negotiate with your enemies.'' Let me come to this 237 00:10:07.367 --> 00:10:10.267 point -- the World Trade Organization. 238 00:10:10.267 --> 00:10:13.834 They must have come here, when the prime minister came to the 239 00:10:13.834 --> 00:10:17.834 United States, and thought it was wrapped up and he left 240 00:10:17.834 --> 00:10:21.067 because Clinton decided to have a change of heart and then 241 00:10:21.067 --> 00:10:24.133 flipped back again-- that we were ambiguous, ambivalent and 242 00:10:24.133 --> 00:10:27.067 sending mixed signals and cause huge second-guessing about where 243 00:10:27.067 --> 00:10:29.501 the relationship was going. 244 00:10:29.501 --> 00:10:32.300 I think it hurt Zhu Rongji when he went home. 245 00:10:32.300 --> 00:10:34.634 He came here, made important concessions, put 246 00:10:34.634 --> 00:10:36.934 them on the table. 247 00:10:36.934 --> 00:10:39.767 And Clinton was absorbed with his Balkans campaign. 248 00:10:39.767 --> 00:10:42.801 Right. 249 00:10:42.801 --> 00:10:45.767 And missed a real opportunity and was 250 00:10:45.767 --> 00:10:48.501 afflicted by what we've seen in President Clinton's two terms 251 00:10:48.501 --> 00:10:51.634 repeatedly -- an inability to seize the initiative and take 252 00:10:51.634 --> 00:10:54.801 something forward, indecisiveness, paralysis, 253 00:10:54.801 --> 00:10:57.634 political fear of the reaction in Congress. 254 00:10:57.634 --> 00:11:00.734 Does Auckland suggest that he is now on-course 255 00:11:00.734 --> 00:11:04.067 and realizes the mistakes and wants to move forward in a very 256 00:11:04.067 --> 00:11:07.601 positive way to you? 257 00:11:07.601 --> 00:11:11.000 I think Auckland simply reflects the reality 258 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:13.868 since the crisis of 1995-'96, that President Clinton was 259 00:11:13.868 --> 00:11:18.100 trying to repair and stabilize the China relationship and get 260 00:11:18.100 --> 00:11:20.701 to the end of his term without causing another military 261 00:11:20.701 --> 00:11:23.300 confrontation in Asia. 262 00:11:23.300 --> 00:11:25.868 If he could accomplish that 263 00:11:25.868 --> 00:11:27.868 >>WTO thing at minimum political cost: Because it's not a high 264 00:11:27.868 --> 00:11:29.834 priority? Because they don't think it's worth it? 265 00:11:29.834 --> 00:11:31.834 Or because-- 266 00:11:31.834 --> 00:11:33.801 He'll see-- he'll see a congressional revolt 267 00:11:33.801 --> 00:11:35.801 that'll spin into Al-- against Al Gore 268 00:11:35.801 --> 00:11:38.100 in the presidential campaign. 269 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:40.501 Yeah. 270 00:11:40.501 --> 00:11:42.601 There's also, I think, a realization in Congress 271 00:11:42.601 --> 00:11:44.934 among some members that were wishy-washy about the issue, 272 00:11:44.934 --> 00:11:47.701 that they can't afford to let this relationship with China 273 00:11:47.701 --> 00:11:50.234 deteriorate further. 274 00:11:50.234 --> 00:11:53.434 And so I think there has been a certain resurgence of support 275 00:11:53.434 --> 00:11:56.067 for the WTO as the sole issue on the table that we can move 276 00:11:56.067 --> 00:11:58.534 together on at this point. 277 00:11:58.534 --> 00:12:00.901 So, it's reading that political map in Congress, I think, has 278 00:12:00.901 --> 00:12:03.167 become very tricky. 279 00:12:03.167 --> 00:12:05.367 Do you believe China will be an issue in the 280 00:12:05.367 --> 00:12:07.567 19-- in the year-2000 presidential campaign? 281 00:12:07.567 --> 00:12:09.934 Without a doubt. 282 00:12:09.934 --> 00:12:12.868 And how will it be framed? 283 00:12:12.868 --> 00:12:15.334 It's difficult to say. 284 00:12:15.334 --> 00:12:17.934 I'm hopeful that the leading candidates will avoid the kind 285 00:12:17.934 --> 00:12:21.000 of posturing that Clinton himself did before he-- during 286 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.033 his election. 287 00:12:24.033 --> 00:12:26.567 Buchanan and Forbes have already come out-- and Bauer-- 288 00:12:26.567 --> 00:12:29.067 with very fearmongering, in my opinion, stances on China. 289 00:12:29.067 --> 00:12:31.567 But I'm hopeful that Bush, Bradley and Gore will be more 290 00:12:31.567 --> 00:12:33.934 mainstream on this. 291 00:12:33.934 --> 00:12:35.934 So, it's possible that we'll sidestep a little of it. 292 00:12:35.934 --> 00:12:37.968 But, if Buchanan gets the Reform Party 293 00:12:37.968 --> 00:12:40.234 nomination, we're off to the races. 294 00:12:40.234 --> 00:12:42.567 Absolutely. 295 00:12:42.567 --> 00:12:44.601 Yeah, he said it last night. 296 00:12:44.601 --> 00:12:46.634 He said that the two parties are not tough on China, ''That's my 297 00:12:46.634 --> 00:12:48.634 foreign-policy plank.'' 298 00:12:48.634 --> 00:12:50.667 This book is called A Great Wall, by PATRICK 299 00:12:50.667 --> 00:12:52.667 TYLER, former Beijing bureau chief for 300 00:12:52.667 --> 00:12:55.667 the New York Times -- Six Presidents and China, An 301 00:12:55.667 --> 00:12:58.667 Investigative History. 302 00:12:58.667 --> 00:13:01.200 You can look here from Nixon to Ford to Carter to Reagan to Bush 303 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.801 to Clinton and see, in a sense, those president -- all who have 304 00:13:03.801 --> 00:13:06.000 had an eye on China, knowing that it was an important 305 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:07.901 bilateral relationship. 306 00:13:07.901 --> 00:13:09.601 And it's been this up-and-down and up-and-down as Ambassador 307 00:13:09.601 --> 00:13:11.133 Sasser said to us. 308 00:13:11.133 --> 00:13:12.634 Thank you very much, Patrick. 309 00:13:12.634 --> 00:13:16.000 You're welcome. Pleasure. 310 00:13:16.000 --> 00:13:18.834 Thank you, John. 311 00:13:18.834 --> 00:13:21.701 Thank you, Charlie. 312 00:13:21.701 --> 00:13:22.467 Thank you.