WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.934 Melody Barnes is here. 2 00:00:04.934 --> 00:00:10.901 She is President Obama's domestic policy adviser. 3 00:00:10.901 --> 00:00:15.901 Since January, 2009, the White House and Congressional 4 00:00:15.901 --> 00:00:20.367 Democrats have expanded health care coverage, imposed new 5 00:00:20.367 --> 00:00:24.367 financial regulations, and pushed through a stimulus that 6 00:00:24.367 --> 00:00:28.067 many say helped end the economic recession. 7 00:00:28.067 --> 00:00:31.801 Their efforts to reform our public education system have 8 00:00:31.801 --> 00:00:35.400 received praise from members of both political parties. 9 00:00:35.400 --> 00:00:39.100 This morning, the president spoke about the need for 10 00:00:39.100 --> 00:00:42.834 education reform in an interview on "The Today Show." 11 00:00:42.834 --> 00:00:46.434 12 00:00:46.434 --> 00:00:50.000 When I travel to China, for example, and I sit down with the 13 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.467 mayor of Shanghai, and he talks about the fact that teaching is 14 00:00:53.467 --> 00:00:56.300 considered one of the most prestigious jobs, and a teacher 15 00:00:56.300 --> 00:00:59.300 is getting paid the same as an engineer, that, I think, 16 00:00:59.300 --> 00:01:02.267 accounts for how well they're doing in terms of boosting 17 00:01:02.267 --> 00:01:05.434 their education system. 18 00:01:05.434 --> 00:01:08.567 Having said that, what is absolutely true is that if we 19 00:01:08.567 --> 00:01:11.901 can't identify teachers who are subpar, give them the 20 00:01:11.901 --> 00:01:14.634 opportunity to get better, but if they don't get better at a 21 00:01:14.634 --> 00:01:17.634 certain point, say these teachers should not be in the 22 00:01:17.634 --> 00:01:20.767 classroom, if we don't do that, then we are doing a disservice 23 00:01:20.767 --> 00:01:23.801 to our kids. 24 00:01:23.801 --> 00:01:26.934 And the school system has to be designed not for the adults. 25 00:01:26.934 --> 00:01:30.167 It's got to be designed for the children. 26 00:01:30.167 --> 00:01:32.868 However, the White House still faces the 27 00:01:32.868 --> 00:01:35.400 challenge of a struggling economy and high unemployment. 28 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:37.801 Melody Barnes has been part of the Obama administration from 29 00:01:37.801 --> 00:01:40.133 the start. 30 00:01:40.133 --> 00:01:42.100 She joined the campaign in 2008. 31 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:44.100 Previously she worked at the Center for American Progress and 32 00:01:44.100 --> 00:01:45.868 served as chief counsel to Senator Ted Kennedy on the 33 00:01:45.868 --> 00:01:47.400 Senate Judiciary Committee. 34 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:49.067 I am pleased to have her here at this table 35 00:01:49.067 --> 00:01:52.634 for the first time. Welcome. 36 00:01:52.634 --> 00:01:54.501 It is m pleasure, thank you. 37 00:01:54.501 --> 00:01:56.400 Oh, it's great to have you here. 38 00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:58.367 What are you trying to say to us about education? 39 00:01:58.367 --> 00:02:00.367 Well, Charlie, I think this is the moment. 40 00:02:00.367 --> 00:02:02.367 There is a momentum that has been building over years and 41 00:02:02.367 --> 00:02:04.367 we've seen local school districts trying to innovate. 42 00:02:04.367 --> 00:02:06.133 We've heard parents' cries for help as they try to get the 43 00:02:06.133 --> 00:02:07.934 best education for their children. 44 00:02:07.934 --> 00:02:09.801 And at the same time, we realize that essentially we've 45 00:02:09.801 --> 00:02:11.434 been lying to our kids. 46 00:02:11.434 --> 00:02:13.167 We've been telling them that they can read when they can't. 47 00:02:13.167 --> 00:02:14.734 We've been telling them that they can do math and science 48 00:02:14.734 --> 00:02:16.400 when they aren't able to. 49 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:18.667 We've been telling them that they are ready for colleges and 50 00:02:18.667 --> 00:02:21.300 for careers when they aren't. 51 00:02:21.300 --> 00:02:23.868 So I think that momentum has finally built to step away from 52 00:02:23.868 --> 00:02:26.634 those -- that set of lies and to tell our children the truth, 53 00:02:26.634 --> 00:02:29.367 to set a high standard, a college and career-ready 54 00:02:29.367 --> 00:02:32.100 standard, and to meet that standard. 55 00:02:32.100 --> 00:02:34.834 The truth is that we have not 56 00:02:34.834 --> 00:02:37.567 been doing all that 57 00:02:37.567 --> 00:02:40.834 we should do for them in terms of providing cathedrals of 58 00:02:40.834 --> 00:02:44.534 education where their teachers -- the best teachers giving 59 00:02:44.534 --> 00:02:48.534 their best to give them the best opportunity they can to find 60 00:02:48.534 --> 00:02:52.601 their place in society. 61 00:02:52.601 --> 00:02:56.701 Absolutely, and that we all have to sit at the 62 00:02:56.701 --> 00:03:01.033 table and prepare ourselves to meet the needs of our kids -- 63 00:03:01.033 --> 00:03:05.067 excuse me -- that our economy is dependent upon it, that it is 64 00:03:05.067 --> 00:03:08.300 critical for our kids as -- to be good citizens, to get a good 65 00:03:08.300 --> 00:03:11.434 education, and that if we are going to compete as a country, 66 00:03:11.434 --> 00:03:14.701 it's absolutely critical that they get 67 00:03:14.701 --> 00:03:18.033 that kind of education. 68 00:03:18.033 --> 00:03:21.567 It requires parents, requires teachers, it requires great 69 00:03:21.567 --> 00:03:24.467 principals, it requires the private sector, it requires the 70 00:03:24.467 --> 00:03:27.467 federal government, the state government, all of us sitting 71 00:03:27.467 --> 00:03:30.834 around that table together and pulling the wagon 72 00:03:30.834 --> 00:03:33.634 in the right direction. 73 00:03:33.634 --> 00:03:36.701 Tell us about the race to the top. 74 00:03:36.701 --> 00:03:40.133 Race to the top has its roots in 75 00:03:40.133 --> 00:03:43.634 the Recovery Act. 76 00:03:43.634 --> 00:03:47.434 So during this moment of great crisis when we were also trying 77 00:03:47.434 --> 00:03:51.434 to save jobs for teachers and keep teachers in the classroom, 78 00:03:51.434 --> 00:03:55.167 we also said, you know what? 79 00:03:55.167 --> 00:03:58.868 We can't just keep putting money into an ailing system. 80 00:03:58.868 --> 00:04:02.434 We have to drive the kind of reform that we know is critical 81 00:04:02.434 --> 00:04:05.968 if we're going to turn things around for our kids. 82 00:04:05.968 --> 00:04:09.567 So we took $4.35 billion and we used that money to leverage the 83 00:04:09.567 --> 00:04:12.667 kind of reform that's necessary. 84 00:04:12.667 --> 00:04:15.501 We said, one, we have to make sure they're great teachers and 85 00:04:15.501 --> 00:04:18.133 great leaders in every school, two, that we have to turn 86 00:04:18.133 --> 00:04:20.601 around our lowest-performing schools -- that's about 5,000, 87 00:04:20.601 --> 00:04:22.567 the bottom five percent of our schools. 88 00:04:22.567 --> 00:04:24.667 We also have to make sure that that our standards are high and 89 00:04:24.667 --> 00:04:26.834 that our assessments are appropriately measuring whether 90 00:04:26.834 --> 00:04:28.901 kids are learning. 91 00:04:28.901 --> 00:04:31.234 And we have to give parents and teachers the kind of data that 92 00:04:31.234 --> 00:04:33.667 they need to that they can assess whether or not students 93 00:04:33.667 --> 00:04:36.267 are learning and turn that around in real time. 94 00:04:36.267 --> 00:04:38.734 So those four prongs are the four pillars for 95 00:04:38.734 --> 00:04:41.100 race to the top. 96 00:04:41.100 --> 00:04:43.367 Before we even put a dollar out of the door, schools started and 97 00:04:43.367 --> 00:04:45.567 districts, rather, started to make changes. 98 00:04:45.567 --> 00:04:47.701 States started to make changes so that they could compete for 99 00:04:47.701 --> 00:04:49.801 those dollars, getting rid of laws that we thought were 100 00:04:49.801 --> 00:04:51.901 restraining and shackling the kind of education system that 101 00:04:51.901 --> 00:04:53.968 was necessary. 102 00:04:53.968 --> 00:04:56.000 We said, look, this is a race to the top. 103 00:04:56.000 --> 00:04:58.300 This isn't a race to mediocrity. 104 00:04:58.300 --> 00:05:00.501 It isn't just a race to being OK. 105 00:05:00.501 --> 00:05:03.234 Our standard will be high. 106 00:05:03.234 --> 00:05:05.968 So in that first round, two states -- Tennessee and Delaware 107 00:05:05.968 --> 00:05:08.434 -- received grants. 108 00:05:08.434 --> 00:05:11.501 We had another round and just recently we announced another 109 00:05:11.501 --> 00:05:14.033 ten states and the District of Columbia as winners. 110 00:05:14.033 --> 00:05:16.901 The conventional wisdom has always been, or the 111 00:05:16.901 --> 00:05:19.334 debate has always said that teachers unions are 112 00:05:19.334 --> 00:05:22.267 part of the problem. 113 00:05:22.267 --> 00:05:24.968 So my question to you is, is that a bad rep for 114 00:05:24.968 --> 00:05:27.634 the teachers union? 115 00:05:27.634 --> 00:05:30.100 And, b, what do we need to do about teachers that the teachers 116 00:05:30.100 --> 00:05:33.234 union somehow stands in the way? 117 00:05:33.234 --> 00:05:36.367 Well, a couple of things on this. 118 00:05:36.367 --> 00:05:39.801 I mean, I think one, you're right. 119 00:05:39.801 --> 00:05:42.701 People have set a bar for reform, and that bar is whether 120 00:05:42.701 --> 00:05:45.400 or not you will go after the teachers unions. 121 00:05:45.400 --> 00:05:47.934 And I think that that is a debate that doesn't really 122 00:05:47.934 --> 00:05:50.534 address the question. 123 00:05:50.534 --> 00:05:53.234 Teachers unions aren't monolithic. 124 00:05:53.234 --> 00:05:56.501 When you look at our race to the top winners, you see 125 00:05:56.501 --> 00:05:59.167 teachers unions at the table with others, Delaware, 126 00:05:59.167 --> 00:06:01.434 Tennessee, doing the right thing, and other places as well. 127 00:06:01.434 --> 00:06:03.934 So have teachers unions don some things that are not helpful 128 00:06:03.934 --> 00:06:07.901 to reform? Absolutely. 129 00:06:07.901 --> 00:06:09.767 Not letting you fire bad teachers, 130 00:06:09.767 --> 00:06:11.434 that kind of thing. 131 00:06:11.434 --> 00:06:12.934 That's true. 132 00:06:12.934 --> 00:06:14.667 Have teachers unions also been at the table to 133 00:06:14.667 --> 00:06:18.934 do the right thick? Absolutely. 134 00:06:18.934 --> 00:06:21.000 So it's a matter of saying here's the table for reform. 135 00:06:21.000 --> 00:06:23.067 If you're here for kids, sit around the table and we can do 136 00:06:23.067 --> 00:06:25.033 these things together. 137 00:06:25.033 --> 00:06:27.667 And I think race to the top proves that that can be done. 138 00:06:27.667 --> 00:06:30.167 Charter schools? 139 00:06:30.167 --> 00:06:32.634 Absolutely. 140 00:06:32.634 --> 00:06:35.167 We believe that within the public school system there has 141 00:06:35.167 --> 00:06:37.734 to be choice and there has to be innovation. 142 00:06:37.734 --> 00:06:40.234 And in fact, charter schools -- this goes back to your other 143 00:06:40.234 --> 00:06:43.133 question -- from the beginning there have been union leaders 144 00:06:43.133 --> 00:06:46.100 who have been supporters of charter schools. 145 00:06:46.100 --> 00:06:49.200 So it isn't just tension there. 146 00:06:49.200 --> 00:06:51.767 But there are also people who will argue today 147 00:06:51.767 --> 00:06:53.934 that, you know, on close examination, you've got to make 148 00:06:53.934 --> 00:06:56.067 sure that charter schools are delivering on the promise that 149 00:06:56.067 --> 00:06:58.167 they're making. 150 00:06:58.167 --> 00:07:00.267 Right. 151 00:07:00.267 --> 00:07:02.701 And what are the results of that so far? 152 00:07:02.701 --> 00:07:05.234 Right, unquestionably. 153 00:07:05.234 --> 00:07:08.067 So traditional public schools and charter schools, magnet 154 00:07:08.067 --> 00:07:10.767 schools, all of these should be part of the public school 155 00:07:10.767 --> 00:07:13.067 choice that's available to kids and to their families. 156 00:07:13.067 --> 00:07:15.601 But at the same time, "charter school" isn't a magical term. 157 00:07:15.601 --> 00:07:17.801 Just because it's a charter school 158 00:07:17.801 --> 00:07:20.234 doesn't mean it's delivering. 159 00:07:20.234 --> 00:07:22.734 So what we've said is if you're not meeting a standard, we have 160 00:07:22.734 --> 00:07:25.167 to hold you accountable. 161 00:07:25.167 --> 00:07:27.334 And if you're not accountable and kids aren't learning, you're 162 00:07:27.334 --> 00:07:29.200 as bad as any other school, and therefore you don't deserve our 163 00:07:29.200 --> 00:07:31.100 resources and you don't deserve our support. 164 00:07:31.100 --> 00:07:33.033 We have to deliver for kid. 165 00:07:33.033 --> 00:07:35.167 That's the end goal. 166 00:07:35.167 --> 00:07:37.467 We have to get them ready for college and career. 167 00:07:37.467 --> 00:07:39.501 And so what should we expect from this 168 00:07:39.501 --> 00:07:41.300 administration over the next two years in terms of education 169 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:42.901 and performance? 170 00:07:42.901 --> 00:07:45.000 Well -- 171 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.300 Your performance. 172 00:07:47.300 --> 00:07:49.567 Right. 173 00:07:49.567 --> 00:07:51.901 Well, one, we want to continue the work that we're doing with 174 00:07:51.901 --> 00:07:54.167 race to the top, because we believe that we've got these 175 00:07:54.167 --> 00:07:56.868 two big goals -- let me back up. 176 00:07:56.868 --> 00:07:59.634 We have these two big goals -- one, complete and competitive 177 00:07:59.634 --> 00:08:02.000 education for our students, making sure that they're 178 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:04.400 college and career ready, and, two, making sure that America 179 00:08:04.400 --> 00:08:06.701 once again has the greatest proportion of college graduates 180 00:08:06.701 --> 00:08:09.300 in the world. 181 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:12.000 We are sliding behind in both of those categories. 182 00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:14.534 So we've set those two big goals. 183 00:08:14.534 --> 00:08:17.133 We believe race to the top and the kind of innovation that 184 00:08:17.133 --> 00:08:20.000 we're doing through other programs is moving us in the 185 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.634 right direction. 186 00:08:22.634 --> 00:08:25.801 We've set a high goal, and now we're saying to states and to 187 00:08:25.801 --> 00:08:28.801 localities, you've got great ideas, you're innovating, we 188 00:08:28.801 --> 00:08:31.300 want to bring these ideas to scale. 189 00:08:31.300 --> 00:08:34.267 Are classroom scores an appropriate model in 190 00:08:34.267 --> 00:08:36.934 part of how good a teacher is? 191 00:08:36.934 --> 00:08:39.400 Yes. 192 00:08:39.400 --> 00:08:41.534 Looking at student growth is an appropriate determinate, one 193 00:08:41.534 --> 00:08:43.734 appropriate or component -- 194 00:08:43.734 --> 00:08:46.133 Growth in test scores? 195 00:08:46.133 --> 00:08:48.434 Growth, yes. 196 00:08:48.434 --> 00:08:50.534 I mean, if you start out -- if you've got a class in fifth 197 00:08:50.534 --> 00:08:52.601 grade and they start out on a third-grade reading level, you 198 00:08:52.601 --> 00:08:54.834 want to see growth at the end of the year. 199 00:08:54.834 --> 00:08:57.133 You've got to see growth. 200 00:08:57.133 --> 00:08:59.467 We've been talking about this, but the 201 00:08:59.467 --> 00:09:01.734 questions there is that in so many of these indexes the United 202 00:09:01.734 --> 00:09:03.667 States is falling behind in K-12. 203 00:09:03.667 --> 00:09:06.100 Absolutely. 204 00:09:06.100 --> 00:09:08.434 Yet we still have the greatest university system 205 00:09:08.434 --> 00:09:10.834 anywhere in the world. 206 00:09:10.834 --> 00:09:12.934 What is it that we have failed to do and failed badly to do 207 00:09:12.934 --> 00:09:15.234 that's caused us to lose our place? 208 00:09:15.234 --> 00:09:17.834 I think, again, going back to this idea of 209 00:09:17.834 --> 00:09:20.067 college and career ready. 210 00:09:20.067 --> 00:09:22.167 That's a standard that we've set. 211 00:09:22.167 --> 00:09:24.667 And we're giving freedom to states and districts to try and 212 00:09:24.667 --> 00:09:27.200 meet that standard. 213 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:29.667 But it's like going on a trip. 214 00:09:29.667 --> 00:09:31.767 If I'm going on a -- traveling from New York to California, I 215 00:09:31.767 --> 00:09:33.601 need to determine how -- if I'm getting there. 216 00:09:33.601 --> 00:09:35.234 If I find out I'm in Richmond, I'm going 217 00:09:35.234 --> 00:09:38.300 in the wrong direction. 218 00:09:38.300 --> 00:09:40.234 Yes, you are. 219 00:09:40.234 --> 00:09:42.200 You're going south, not west. 220 00:09:42.200 --> 00:09:43.934 You're going in the wrong direction. 221 00:09:43.934 --> 00:09:46.200 So we need to set a high bar and then determine whether or 222 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:48.567 not our students are getting there. 223 00:09:48.567 --> 00:09:50.634 We haven't been doing that. 224 00:09:50.634 --> 00:09:53.300 And we also haven't allowed our states and our districts to 225 00:09:53.300 --> 00:09:56.000 innovate and determine the needs of 226 00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:58.801 their students appropriately. 227 00:09:58.801 --> 00:10:01.167 We've put too tight a restraint on them while we also haven't 228 00:10:01.167 --> 00:10:03.467 set a standard that's high enough so that our kids can 229 00:10:03.467 --> 00:10:05.434 succeed and in turn go to college and on to 230 00:10:05.434 --> 00:10:07.167 careers and do well. 231 00:10:07.167 --> 00:10:08.968 So the president comes forward today and 232 00:10:08.968 --> 00:10:11.434 announces what? 233 00:10:11.434 --> 00:10:14.267 Right. 234 00:10:14.267 --> 00:10:17.367 So the president announced today as part of an overall effort 235 00:10:17.367 --> 00:10:20.501 he's put on science and math that we are going to make our 236 00:10:20.501 --> 00:10:23.367 big push for 10,000 new science and math teachers. 237 00:10:23.367 --> 00:10:26.000 And this is part of an overall strategy to ensure that we go 238 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.234 from the middle of the pack to the top of the pack in science, 239 00:10:28.234 --> 00:10:30.167 technology, engineering, and math. 240 00:10:30.167 --> 00:10:32.100 Should they be compensated more than, say, 241 00:10:32.100 --> 00:10:34.033 physical education? 242 00:10:34.033 --> 00:10:36.000 We've said where you need 243 00:10:36.000 --> 00:10:37.934 teachers -- because our 244 00:10:37.934 --> 00:10:40.434 country desperately needs our kids to succeed in this area and 245 00:10:40.434 --> 00:10:42.567 it's hard to recruit them -- then, yes, 246 00:10:42.567 --> 00:10:44.634 additional incentives -- 247 00:10:44.634 --> 00:10:46.801 If it takes more money to get science and 248 00:10:46.801 --> 00:10:48.934 engineering and computer -- 249 00:10:48.934 --> 00:10:50.801 Right, because exactly what you said. 250 00:10:50.801 --> 00:10:52.467 Right now we're 21st in the world in science and 25th in the 251 00:10:52.467 --> 00:10:54.734 world in math. 252 00:10:54.734 --> 00:10:57.133 That doesn't make sense. 253 00:10:57.133 --> 00:10:59.167 We've got the capability. 254 00:10:59.167 --> 00:11:01.234 And we know that these tools are necessary for innovation. 255 00:11:01.234 --> 00:11:03.267 Innovation is necessary for growth and competiveness on a 256 00:11:03.267 --> 00:11:05.801 global stage. 257 00:11:05.801 --> 00:11:08.000 So we have to get our kids there. 258 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.501 They've got to be science and math literal. 259 00:11:10.501 --> 00:11:12.968 We need better curriculum an more teachers that are trained 260 00:11:12.968 --> 00:11:15.501 in those subjects. 261 00:11:15.501 --> 00:11:18.133 And for underrepresented populations, we don't have 262 00:11:18.133 --> 00:11:21.000 enough women going into these fields. 263 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:23.367 We don't have enough people of color going into these fields. 264 00:11:23.367 --> 00:11:25.734 We have to make sure that everybody in our diversity is an 265 00:11:25.734 --> 00:11:28.200 advantage and that we are doing what it takes to make sure our 266 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:30.300 kids can compete. 267 00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:32.601 It must have been a very proud moment when the 268 00:11:32.601 --> 00:11:35.501 president signed health care reform legislation. 269 00:11:35.501 --> 00:11:38.100 Yes. 270 00:11:38.100 --> 00:11:40.834 Is it going to achieve the kind of cost 271 00:11:40.834 --> 00:11:43.801 containment that is also essential in terms of its 272 00:11:43.801 --> 00:11:46.934 viability in the future? 273 00:11:46.934 --> 00:11:50.033 I absolutely believe that it will. 274 00:11:50.033 --> 00:11:53.334 And I know that people are learning more about the health 275 00:11:53.334 --> 00:11:56.701 care bill that we passed, and they're just starting as of last 276 00:11:56.701 --> 00:12:00.100 week to start to see some of the benefits from it, and certainly 277 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:03.133 more of them in 2014 when the entire bill goes into effect. 278 00:12:03.133 --> 00:12:05.901 But I think we will be able to bend the cost curve. 279 00:12:05.901 --> 00:12:08.434 All the numbers that we look at tell us that costs for 280 00:12:08.434 --> 00:12:10.701 individuals will start to go down. 281 00:12:10.701 --> 00:12:12.934 They will not contribute to the deficit? 282 00:12:12.934 --> 00:12:15.167 That's -- the bill that we passed was a 283 00:12:15.167 --> 00:12:17.467 deficit- neutral bill. 284 00:12:17.467 --> 00:12:19.434 I know it was. 285 00:12:19.434 --> 00:12:21.167 But should you have delayed health care and focused on the 286 00:12:21.167 --> 00:12:22.701 economy so that there was no question that you were trying 287 00:12:22.701 --> 00:12:24.667 to deal with unemployment? 288 00:12:24.667 --> 00:12:26.901 No. 289 00:12:26.901 --> 00:12:29.567 I don't believe that. 290 00:12:29.567 --> 00:12:32.534 First of all, health care is an economic issue. 291 00:12:32.534 --> 00:12:35.767 And before -- during the campaign and the months leading 292 00:12:35.767 --> 00:12:38.901 up to the election -- and past -- we heard businesses saying 293 00:12:38.901 --> 00:12:42.033 you have got to get the health care monkey off our back. 294 00:12:42.033 --> 00:12:45.300 It is dragging us down, it's impossible to compete globally 295 00:12:45.300 --> 00:12:48.501 when we've got these rising, rising health care costs. 296 00:12:48.501 --> 00:12:51.801 Then you look in the eyes of people who are struggling and 297 00:12:51.801 --> 00:12:54.501 who are desperate, and they're losing their homes, they're 298 00:12:54.501 --> 00:12:57.501 losing everything because of health care costs, and these -- 299 00:12:57.501 --> 00:13:00.534 you know, these are middle-class people who just want to make a 300 00:13:00.534 --> 00:13:03.133 way for their family. 301 00:13:03.133 --> 00:13:06.100 So getting health care done was integral to addressing the needs 302 00:13:06.100 --> 00:13:08.801 both of our national economy, the needs of business, and the 303 00:13:08.801 --> 00:13:11.501 needs of families. 304 00:13:11.501 --> 00:13:14.234 And it was also -- you know, it's a walk-and-talk moment. 305 00:13:14.234 --> 00:13:17.167 Does that concern you, that there is this image 306 00:13:17.167 --> 00:13:20.200 that the president has -- it's gotten some traction that the 307 00:13:20.200 --> 00:13:23.167 president is in favor -- because of what he had to do in 308 00:13:23.167 --> 00:13:26.100 terms of an emergency and the previous administration as well 309 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:29.067 -- that he wants to transform the country through some kind 310 00:13:29.067 --> 00:13:32.167 of large government intervention, that that kind of 311 00:13:32.167 --> 00:13:35.767 mindset may be setting in? 312 00:13:35.767 --> 00:13:39.267 It does, because it's mythical. 313 00:13:39.267 --> 00:13:42.367 I mean, we did what we had to do, some of it unpopular, but 314 00:13:42.367 --> 00:13:45.767 all of it very necessary to save auto companies and make sure 315 00:13:45.767 --> 00:13:49.234 that a million people didn't lose their jobs and all the 316 00:13:49.234 --> 00:13:52.534 jobs that were related to that industry. 317 00:13:52.534 --> 00:13:55.601 We did what we had to do to try and stabilize our financial 318 00:13:55.601 --> 00:13:58.200 system so that small businesses and others could get the loans 319 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.033 that they need to get and so that people could start to go 320 00:14:01.033 --> 00:14:04.400 back to work again so that we could keep 321 00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:08.133 teachers and classrooms. 322 00:14:08.133 --> 00:14:11.634 We had to do those things just to stabilize the economy so that 323 00:14:11.634 --> 00:14:14.501 we would no longer be losing 600,000, 700,000 jobs a month. 324 00:14:14.501 --> 00:14:17.534 And we've been able to do that, but people have this kind of 325 00:14:17.534 --> 00:14:20.334 bizarre view that we were looking to -- for a big 326 00:14:20.334 --> 00:14:23.334 government takeover. 327 00:14:23.334 --> 00:14:26.100 Well, but they also lay some of the blame at 328 00:14:26.100 --> 00:14:29.167 his feet, saying he has not, for all of his communication 329 00:14:29.167 --> 00:14:32.300 skills, been able to explain what he was trying to do. 330 00:14:32.300 --> 00:14:35.567 And they say the proof is in the pudding. 331 00:14:35.567 --> 00:14:39.100 If, in fact, there's this idea there, he hasn't been able to 332 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:42.000 explain what you're trying to do is not about big government. 333 00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:44.434 What you're trying to do is deal with an economic emergency, a 334 00:14:44.434 --> 00:14:47.667 car -- General Motors, Chrysler, which were at 335 00:14:47.667 --> 00:14:50.467 bankruptcy's door. 336 00:14:50.467 --> 00:14:53.701 Right. 337 00:14:53.701 --> 00:14:57.100 And that it was essential to the moment but not 338 00:14:57.100 --> 00:15:00.300 reflection of a philosophy. 339 00:15:00.300 --> 00:15:03.667 Well, I also want people -- I hope that 340 00:15:03.667 --> 00:15:07.200 people will go back and listen to what the president said not 341 00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:10.767 long after he walked in the door. 342 00:15:10.767 --> 00:15:13.968 And he said, look, big crisis right now, got to deal with it. 343 00:15:13.968 --> 00:15:16.601 But at the same time there are investments that we have to make 344 00:15:16.601 --> 00:15:19.167 for the long term, education being among them, energy, 345 00:15:19.167 --> 00:15:22.033 economy being another big one -- 346 00:15:22.033 --> 00:15:24.434 Climate. 347 00:15:24.434 --> 00:15:26.501 All of that was critical. 348 00:15:26.501 --> 00:15:28.734 That government can't and shouldn't do 349 00:15:28.734 --> 00:15:31.100 all of it by itself. 350 00:15:31.100 --> 00:15:33.300 We can't do everything. 351 00:15:33.300 --> 00:15:35.834 We have to partner with the private sector to get it done. 352 00:15:35.834 --> 00:15:38.968 And you can see evidence of that everywhere you look in the 353 00:15:38.968 --> 00:15:42.167 work that we're doing. 354 00:15:42.167 --> 00:15:45.434 And also this philosophy about government that he has, his 355 00:15:45.434 --> 00:15:48.467 belief that, as I said, government shouldn't be -- it 356 00:15:48.467 --> 00:15:51.601 isn't about big, it isn't about small, it is about effective. 357 00:15:51.601 --> 00:15:54.701 It is about meeting the needs of the people doing that which the 358 00:15:54.701 --> 00:15:57.801 people cannot do for themselves. 359 00:15:57.801 --> 00:16:00.968 And that has been a guiding philosophy in all that we've 360 00:16:00.968 --> 00:16:03.934 done if you hold it up against that metric. 361 00:16:03.934 --> 00:16:06.634 The perception also -- and we've had many 362 00:16:06.634 --> 00:16:09.334 conversations at this table about this -- also is that when 363 00:16:09.334 --> 00:16:12.267 you came in with the stimulus program, two things happened. 364 00:16:12.267 --> 00:16:14.701 One, that it was essentially written between the 365 00:16:14.701 --> 00:16:17.033 administration and the Democrats in Congress and that there was 366 00:16:17.033 --> 00:16:21.734 not enough reaching out to Republicans at that time. 367 00:16:21.734 --> 00:16:24.734 And that therefore that also created -- I've had people like 368 00:16:24.734 --> 00:16:28.033 Mark Halperin argue that point here -- he wrote the political 369 00:16:28.033 --> 00:16:30.834 book of the season -- and others. 370 00:16:30.834 --> 00:16:33.501 Is that a criticism you don't accept, that in creating the 371 00:16:33.501 --> 00:16:37.234 stimulus that essentially at that moment set a pattern that 372 00:16:37.234 --> 00:16:40.434 somehow persisted? 373 00:16:40.434 --> 00:16:43.367 I don't accept that. 374 00:16:43.367 --> 00:16:45.801 I think that the hand was extended, and the extended hand 375 00:16:45.801 --> 00:16:48.167 wasn't always reciprocated. 376 00:16:48.167 --> 00:16:50.167 They wanted to say no from the beginning would 377 00:16:50.167 --> 00:16:52.701 be your argument. 378 00:16:52.701 --> 00:16:55.634 I think, as you said earlier, the proof is in 379 00:16:55.634 --> 00:16:58.534 the pudding. 380 00:16:58.534 --> 00:17:01.267 But we have seen areas of great bipartisanship, and education 381 00:17:01.267 --> 00:17:04.033 being one of them, great collaboration with the business 382 00:17:04.033 --> 00:17:06.868 sector, who recognized how important it is for the future 383 00:17:06.868 --> 00:17:10.033 and the growth of their companies, work with 384 00:17:10.033 --> 00:17:12.934 Republicans, House, and Senate to get this done. 385 00:17:12.934 --> 00:17:15.801 It doesn't mean we agree on everything, and great debate is 386 00:17:15.801 --> 00:17:18.334 part of who we are as Americans, and ideological 387 00:17:18.334 --> 00:17:20.934 debate is fine. 388 00:17:20.934 --> 00:17:24.200 But at the same time we have been able to work together to 389 00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:27.133 get important things done. 390 00:17:27.133 --> 00:17:30.801 Do you believe that the enthusiasm that existed 391 00:17:30.801 --> 00:17:34.133 in 2007 and 2008, which you were part of, can be recaptured? 392 00:17:34.133 --> 00:17:37.133 I do. 393 00:17:37.133 --> 00:17:40.200 And I understand -- it isn't just an understanding at a 394 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.501 distance, you know? 395 00:17:43.501 --> 00:17:46.200 I go home every night. 396 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.200 My husband is a small business owner, and I see the 397 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:52.200 frustration, I see the worry, I see his growing his business 398 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:55.067 and hiring people. 399 00:17:55.067 --> 00:17:57.801 I understand the kinds of struggles what people are going 400 00:17:57.801 --> 00:18:00.100 through out there and how that weighs down on people. 401 00:18:00.100 --> 00:18:02.501 You know, those same people I was talking about that we met on 402 00:18:02.501 --> 00:18:04.534 the campaign trail, the president talked to 403 00:18:04.534 --> 00:18:06.834 thousands of them. 404 00:18:06.834 --> 00:18:09.033 And the president -- you know, those ten letters he reads every 405 00:18:09.033 --> 00:18:11.000 single day. 406 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.167 And he'll come into the Roosevelt where we all meet and 407 00:18:13.167 --> 00:18:15.601 he'll say "What about this? 408 00:18:15.601 --> 00:18:18.300 How are we helping this person? 409 00:18:18.300 --> 00:18:21.234 Does this policy solution help this person?" 410 00:18:21.234 --> 00:18:24.033 And days later he'll come back and say "Does this fix that?" 411 00:18:24.033 --> 00:18:26.601 Because he cares deeply about those people. 412 00:18:26.601 --> 00:18:29.033 So all of that is having its toll and effect. 413 00:18:29.033 --> 00:18:31.601 Do you think that's gotten through that, that 414 00:18:31.601 --> 00:18:34.300 visceral caring has gotten through? 415 00:18:34.300 --> 00:18:37.267 I think people who interact with him, the 416 00:18:37.267 --> 00:18:40.000 people who listen to him -- I talk to people on the street. 417 00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:42.968 I'm standing sometimes in th grocery store line and people 418 00:18:42.968 --> 00:18:45.801 will grab me and say "Keep on doing what you're doing. 419 00:18:45.801 --> 00:18:48.534 Tell the president I'm praying for him. 420 00:18:48.534 --> 00:18:51.434 I believe in him, and we thank him." I get that all over the 421 00:18:51.434 --> 00:18:54.501 place, at my own church, in my own grocery store. 422 00:18:54.501 --> 00:18:57.534 So I think that is happening. 423 00:18:57.534 --> 00:19:00.567 But I think as people start to see this change, start to feel 424 00:19:00.567 --> 00:19:03.801 the benefit of health care, start to see the benefit of what 425 00:19:03.801 --> 00:19:07.067 we did with student lending and how that's helping people send 426 00:19:07.067 --> 00:19:09.734 their kids to college, that that will start to revive and 427 00:19:09.734 --> 00:19:12.133 start to come back, because through it all the president is 428 00:19:12.133 --> 00:19:14.434 saying we are Americans, we can get through this, we are doing 429 00:19:14.434 --> 00:19:16.701 this together. 430 00:19:16.701 --> 00:19:18.901 We are a great nation. 431 00:19:18.901 --> 00:19:21.801 I know a lot of people that worry about this, 432 00:19:21.801 --> 00:19:25.067 and this has nothing to do with liking or disliking the 433 00:19:25.067 --> 00:19:28.667 president or his proposal so much. 434 00:19:28.667 --> 00:19:32.200 It's this genuine concern I think among a lot of people who 435 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:35.167 -- that we have simply gotten to a place in our politics, in 436 00:19:35.167 --> 00:19:38.267 our politics, to almost a level of dysfunction at the political 437 00:19:38.267 --> 00:19:41.467 institutions that are required to do something about issues, 438 00:19:41.467 --> 00:19:45.367 especially the Congress. 439 00:19:45.367 --> 00:19:49.133 So that we're not doing what we ought to be doing about climate 440 00:19:49.133 --> 00:19:52.200 and about -- And as much as we should have done on a whole 441 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.767 range of issues, that somehow there is a kind of absence of 442 00:19:54.767 --> 00:19:57.534 partisanship -- I mean bipartisanship. 443 00:19:57.534 --> 00:20:00.334 Do you see that? 444 00:20:00.334 --> 00:20:03.167 Do you feel that? 445 00:20:03.167 --> 00:20:05.734 Do you feel this government today, Republican and Democrat, 446 00:20:05.734 --> 00:20:08.467 has the capacity to work together to deal with these 447 00:20:08.467 --> 00:20:11.534 issues are so crucial to our future? 448 00:20:11.534 --> 00:20:15.534 I know that it can. 449 00:20:15.534 --> 00:20:19.534 I understand what you're saying and what you're seeing, and I'm 450 00:20:19.534 --> 00:20:23.567 not going to pretend that the frustration isn't there. 451 00:20:23.567 --> 00:20:27.734 But looking back at 2007-2008, that still -- all the 452 00:20:27.734 --> 00:20:32.067 ingredients for that, all those people, that still exists. 453 00:20:32.067 --> 00:20:35.934 And that was people across geographic lines, across age 454 00:20:35.934 --> 00:20:39.133 lines, across political lines being excited and feeling -- 455 00:20:39.133 --> 00:20:41.968 and not just for the election of this president, but feeling 456 00:20:41.968 --> 00:20:44.901 like they were invested, like they could make a difference, 457 00:20:44.901 --> 00:20:47.834 they could make a change. 458 00:20:47.834 --> 00:20:51.300 And that's what we believe in. 459 00:20:51.300 --> 00:20:54.634 That's why this work is going on at the local level that we are 460 00:20:54.634 --> 00:20:57.701 respecting and supporting at the federal level. 461 00:20:57.701 --> 00:21:00.701 I think that kind of energy will start to breed people 462 00:21:00.701 --> 00:21:03.467 coming together and working together for the good of their 463 00:21:03.467 --> 00:21:06.601 communities, for their families, for their states, and 464 00:21:06.601 --> 00:21:09.200 ultimately for the federal government, because we've 465 00:21:09.200 --> 00:21:11.534 gotten through tough periods before. 466 00:21:11.534 --> 00:21:13.534 We've gotten through periods of great dissension and debate in 467 00:21:13.534 --> 00:21:15.534 the past. 468 00:21:15.534 --> 00:21:19.000 We absolutely can. 469 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:22.467 We have to. 470 00:21:22.467 --> 00:21:25.734 There's also this. 471 00:21:25.734 --> 00:21:28.901 When you look at the possibilities of change over 472 00:21:28.901 --> 00:21:32.067 the next two years, what is it that you want to accomplish? 473 00:21:32.067 --> 00:21:34.734 Well, I think the work we're doing in 474 00:21:34.734 --> 00:21:37.501 education -- and I didn't start out working in education. 475 00:21:37.501 --> 00:21:40.701 When I first moved to Washington I was working on civil and 476 00:21:40.701 --> 00:21:43.467 constitutional rights issues. 477 00:21:43.467 --> 00:21:46.300 And I have come to a place where I feel so passionately 478 00:21:46.300 --> 00:21:48.834 about this because I believe this is better 479 00:21:48.834 --> 00:21:52.033 educating our kids. 480 00:21:52.033 --> 00:21:54.734 That's the key to greater opportunity for them and greater 481 00:21:54.734 --> 00:21:57.834 opportunity for us as a nation. 482 00:21:57.834 --> 00:22:01.200 So I want to accomplish as much as possible in the education 483 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:04.601 sphere and working with people. 484 00:22:04.601 --> 00:22:08.133 I was talking to two CEOs recently -- Ed Rust who heads 485 00:22:08.133 --> 00:22:11.734 State Farm, Bill Green who heads Accenture, and they were saying 486 00:22:11.734 --> 00:22:14.734 we got together recently, we spent time talking about 487 00:22:14.734 --> 00:22:17.801 business, and we spent a couple hours talking about education. 488 00:22:17.801 --> 00:22:20.868 I mean, people recognize how critical this is and how 489 00:22:20.868 --> 00:22:23.434 important this is. 490 00:22:23.434 --> 00:22:26.000 And I think about the kids I encountered along the way. 491 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.567 You look in their eyes and there's so much hope and there's 492 00:22:28.567 --> 00:22:31.601 so much desire. 493 00:22:31.601 --> 00:22:34.200 And I think that we can meet this. 494 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:36.667 I'm energized by this challenge to meet this, and I know that 495 00:22:36.667 --> 00:22:39.033 this president has created an opportunity for us to work 496 00:22:39.033 --> 00:22:41.300 together and to get that done. 497 00:22:41.300 --> 00:22:43.968 So I feel very passionately about that. 498 00:22:43.968 --> 00:22:46.801 If you come from your background you also know a 499 00:22:46.801 --> 00:22:49.133 lot of business leaders across the country. 500 00:22:49.133 --> 00:22:51.567 What do you make of the divide that somehow people suggest has 501 00:22:51.567 --> 00:22:54.133 -- exists today between the business 502 00:22:54.133 --> 00:22:57.067 community and the president? 503 00:22:57.067 --> 00:22:59.801 Well, we -- first of all if you look at our 504 00:22:59.801 --> 00:23:02.133 policy, I mean I think an honest assessment of what we've 505 00:23:02.133 --> 00:23:04.133 been able to do as a policy matter has been very supportive 506 00:23:04.133 --> 00:23:06.200 of business, and particularly small business. 507 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:08.300 Not everything they want. 508 00:23:08.300 --> 00:23:10.133 I'm not going to pretend that. 509 00:23:10.133 --> 00:23:11.734 And financial regulation will cause divide, 510 00:23:11.734 --> 00:23:14.100 although many people think they got more than they might have 511 00:23:14.100 --> 00:23:19.601 expected the first time. 512 00:23:19.601 --> 00:23:22.067 So we've done what's necessary I think to try 513 00:23:22.067 --> 00:23:24.234 and create the kind of jobs that we need in this country, 514 00:23:24.234 --> 00:23:26.267 small businesses in particular because they're such an engine 515 00:23:26.267 --> 00:23:28.400 of change. 516 00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:31.868 And create jobs. 517 00:23:31.868 --> 00:23:35.467 Exactly. 518 00:23:35.467 --> 00:23:38.901 I'm sorry -- they're such an engine for the economy. 519 00:23:38.901 --> 00:23:42.367 But at the same time we also know that we -- an unfettered 520 00:23:42.367 --> 00:23:45.734 economy, an unfettered economic system got us into the mess 521 00:23:45.734 --> 00:23:49.334 we've been in in the first place that we got into when we 522 00:23:49.334 --> 00:23:53.300 walked into the White House in January of 2009. 523 00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:57.367 We had to address those issues. 524 00:23:57.367 --> 00:24:01.400 We had to do it for the American public. 525 00:24:01.400 --> 00:24:05.167 I believe that in our conversations both with the 526 00:24:05.167 --> 00:24:09.133 employee and the employer that people are coming to understand 527 00:24:09.133 --> 00:24:12.734 and will see the benefit of what we've been able to do 528 00:24:12.734 --> 00:24:15.934 because it will mean that we will never again have an 529 00:24:15.934 --> 00:24:19.334 economy that's sitting on top of a bubble that is so unregulated 530 00:24:19.334 --> 00:24:22.467 that people don't understand what they're trading, what 531 00:24:22.467 --> 00:24:25.267 they're buying, what they're selling, and then the bubble 532 00:24:25.267 --> 00:24:27.868 pops and our economy falls on top of it. 533 00:24:27.868 --> 00:24:30.300 When you look at health care reform, do you look 534 00:24:30.300 --> 00:24:32.634 at that as just the beginning? 535 00:24:32.634 --> 00:24:34.634 Just th beginning? 536 00:24:34.634 --> 00:24:37.067 In other words, clearly there was -- remarkable 537 00:24:37.067 --> 00:24:39.567 things were achieved with access 538 00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:41.968 and some cost containment. 539 00:24:41.968 --> 00:24:44.801 But we look at the problems of Medicare and Social Security in 540 00:24:44.801 --> 00:24:47.400 terms of the entitlement commitments this country has and 541 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:49.701 the deficit we have. 542 00:24:49.701 --> 00:24:51.801 I'm sort of asking -- this was a historic piece of legislation. 543 00:24:51.801 --> 00:24:54.534 Nobody got everything they wanted. 544 00:24:54.534 --> 00:24:56.834 Is it the beginning? 545 00:24:56.834 --> 00:24:59.634 Will we see more? 546 00:24:59.634 --> 00:25:02.534 Republicans have suggested they may try to roll some of it back. 547 00:25:02.534 --> 00:25:04.968 Is that feasible? 548 00:25:04.968 --> 00:25:07.300 Do Democrats believe they can add to it, that this was just 549 00:25:07.300 --> 00:25:09.267 the beginning of the change in health care that 550 00:25:09.267 --> 00:25:11.534 ought to take place? 551 00:25:11.534 --> 00:25:13.467 Well, I think our first goal right now is to 552 00:25:13.467 --> 00:25:16.200 implement health care. 553 00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:19.567 Most of the bill doesn't even go into effect 554 00:25:19.567 --> 00:25:23.067 until the year 2014. 555 00:25:23.067 --> 00:25:26.734 I think the effort to repeal health care reform, if you want 556 00:25:26.734 --> 00:25:30.734 to repeal provisions that allow kids to stay on their parents' 557 00:25:30.734 --> 00:25:34.567 health insurance until they're 26, if you want to repeal the 558 00:25:34.567 --> 00:25:37.734 savings to seniors who are trying to get prescription 559 00:25:37.734 --> 00:25:40.634 drugs, if you want to repeal provisions that allow children 560 00:25:40.634 --> 00:25:43.033 with preexisting conditions to get health care -- if you want 561 00:25:43.033 --> 00:25:45.367 to do that, go for it. 562 00:25:45.367 --> 00:25:47.601 You'll go for that battle, won't you? 563 00:25:47.601 --> 00:25:49.767 Absolutely. 564 00:25:49.767 --> 00:25:51.901 You're willing to have that fight. 565 00:25:51.901 --> 00:25:54.267 Absolutely willing to have that fight 566 00:25:54.267 --> 00:25:56.334 because as the American public, again, starts to feel those 567 00:25:56.334 --> 00:25:58.367 benefits, what we did for men and women who sit at their 568 00:25:58.367 --> 00:26:00.601 kitchen table and wonder how they're going to 569 00:26:00.601 --> 00:26:02.767 make it work -- 570 00:26:02.767 --> 00:26:05.567 But my impression is for a lot of people who are 571 00:26:05.567 --> 00:26:08.100 proponents of health care reform and feel very good about what 572 00:26:08.100 --> 00:26:10.501 happened, they feel like it's only halfway there. 573 00:26:10.501 --> 00:26:12.801 I think we have to put the bill into effect and 574 00:26:12.801 --> 00:26:15.000 implement it well and -- 575 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.734 And see what it does. 576 00:26:17.734 --> 00:26:20.767 -- and see what that does. 577 00:26:20.767 --> 00:26:23.300 At the same time, the president has said, I'm looking at this 578 00:26:23.300 --> 00:26:26.033 fiscal commission he set up, looking at entitlements to 579 00:26:26.033 --> 00:26:28.534 determine what has to happen so we can put our economy on a 580 00:26:28.534 --> 00:26:31.200 solid footing. 581 00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.501 One of the things that health care did was give Medicare 12 582 00:26:33.501 --> 00:26:35.701 more years of viability. 583 00:26:35.701 --> 00:26:37.734 So that's a benefit in and of itself, but we have to look at 584 00:26:37.734 --> 00:26:40.868 all the pieces to the. 585 00:26:40.868 --> 00:26:44.200 What do you think the bipartisan deficit 586 00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:47.868 commission will accomplish? 587 00:26:47.868 --> 00:26:50.901 I believe that they -- and the objective was to 588 00:26:50.901 --> 00:26:53.767 bring people together who could look seriously at these 589 00:26:53.767 --> 00:26:56.200 problems, these big problems and offer solutions that we hope 590 00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:58.667 the system -- 591 00:26:58.667 --> 00:27:01.067 The political system could not 592 00:27:01.067 --> 00:27:03.467 do standing alone? 593 00:27:03.467 --> 00:27:06.334 And help make tough decisions, because the 594 00:27:06.334 --> 00:27:08.701 president knows they have to be made. 595 00:27:08.701 --> 00:27:11.067 I mean, that's the kind of leader he is. 596 00:27:11.067 --> 00:27:13.434 It's calm, it's steady, it's practical, and we've got to get 597 00:27:13.434 --> 00:27:15.868 it done. 598 00:27:15.868 --> 00:27:18.701 I interviewed Tony Blair the other day and we 599 00:27:18.701 --> 00:27:21.067 talked about what was surprising being prime minister, 600 00:27:21.067 --> 00:27:23.868 and he said the complexity of the problems. 601 00:27:23.868 --> 00:27:27.067 What surprises you being this close to the seat of power in 602 00:27:27.067 --> 00:27:30.667 the White House? 603 00:27:30.667 --> 00:27:33.601 You know, some days I'm sitting in the Oval 604 00:27:33.601 --> 00:27:36.367 Office and I think it's Melody Barnes from Richmond, Virginia, 605 00:27:36.367 --> 00:27:39.067 sitting in the Oval Office and he's sitting there listening to 606 00:27:39.067 --> 00:27:41.367 what I have to say. 607 00:27:41.367 --> 00:27:43.400 Wanting you to tell him how he solves some of 608 00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:45.834 these issues as a domestic policy adviser, the principle 609 00:27:45.834 --> 00:27:47.901 domestic policy adviser. 610 00:27:47.901 --> 00:27:50.334 And that is -- 611 00:27:50.334 --> 00:27:56.734 Tell me what we ought to do, Melody. 612 00:27:56.734 --> 00:28:00.167 And in a very, very human, very personal way 613 00:28:00.167 --> 00:28:03.567 that's wonderful and incredible and an honor and humbling. 614 00:28:03.567 --> 00:28:06.734 At the same time, and I would agree with the former prime 615 00:28:06.734 --> 00:28:09.334 minister, as one of my colleagues often says, by the 616 00:28:09.334 --> 00:28:11.667 time the problems get to our desk and certainly by the time 617 00:28:11.667 --> 00:28:14.100 they get to the president's desk, all the easy 618 00:28:14.100 --> 00:28:16.200 problems are gone. 619 00:28:16.200 --> 00:28:18.000 The yes, no problems -- 620 00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:19.701 It if was easy it wouldn't have 621 00:28:19.701 --> 00:28:22.100 gotten to the president. 622 00:28:22.100 --> 00:28:25.334 Exactly. 623 00:28:25.334 --> 00:28:28.501 So it is complex and they're difficult and often you don't 624 00:28:28.501 --> 00:28:31.367 have -- it isn't that you have the perfect, the most wonderful 625 00:28:31.367 --> 00:28:35.100 answer and you have to figure it out with really smart people in 626 00:28:35.100 --> 00:28:39.300 the room and thinking about those people you met along the 627 00:28:39.300 --> 00:28:43.334 way in the campaign and what their needs are. 628 00:28:43.334 --> 00:28:46.601 And the president's very obvious kind of center, his own 629 00:28:46.601 --> 00:28:49.567 compass and what he wants to accomplish and to do for the 630 00:28:49.567 --> 00:28:52.067 betterment of this nation, and then try and figure 631 00:28:52.067 --> 00:28:54.734 it out from there. 632 00:28:54.734 --> 00:28:57.434 And I guess the other thing I would say is it's like going to 633 00:28:57.434 --> 00:28:59.868 the beach. 634 00:28:59.868 --> 00:29:02.200 You go into the water and a wave comes and knocks you down and 635 00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.601 you wipe your eyes and get the sand out of your suit, and then 636 00:29:04.601 --> 00:29:06.634 here comes another wave. 637 00:29:06.634 --> 00:29:08.667 You've been in the Congress so you knew this, 638 00:29:08.667 --> 00:29:10.667 but is the political dimension any different 639 00:29:10.667 --> 00:29:12.767 than what you expected? 640 00:29:12.767 --> 00:29:14.968 What do you mean? 641 00:29:14.968 --> 00:29:17.367 I mean the politics of it, that good 642 00:29:17.367 --> 00:29:19.767 legislation doesn't necessarily get passed, that good intentions 643 00:29:19.767 --> 00:29:22.167 are not necessarily easily accomplished, that you can 644 00:29:22.167 --> 00:29:24.234 believe you're on the right side of god and somebody comes along 645 00:29:24.234 --> 00:29:26.000 and says "No, no, not my god." 646 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.467 Not my god, try again. 647 00:29:30.467 --> 00:29:32.601 Exactly. 648 00:29:32.601 --> 00:29:35.133 So in other words, it's not the merit of something, it's the 649 00:29:35.133 --> 00:29:37.501 politics of something that frequently determines. 650 00:29:37.501 --> 00:29:39.701 And you're right. 651 00:29:39.701 --> 00:29:41.567 I've lived in Washington and worked in the House and Senate 652 00:29:41.567 --> 00:29:43.234 somewhere in policy since 1992. 653 00:29:43.234 --> 00:29:45.167 So I've -- 654 00:29:45.167 --> 00:29:49.300 Oh, no. 655 00:29:49.300 --> 00:29:51.767 This is when Bill Clinton became president. 656 00:29:51.767 --> 00:29:54.033 You know, I've seen a lot of what you're 657 00:29:54.033 --> 00:29:56.467 talking about. 658 00:29:56.467 --> 00:29:58.767 But I also know -- I remember one day sitting with Senator 659 00:29:58.767 --> 00:30:01.167 Kennedy in his kitchen. 660 00:30:01.167 --> 00:30:04.434 We were talking about this and talking about -- I was asking 661 00:30:04.434 --> 00:30:07.467 him, it's hard, it's complicated. 662 00:30:07.467 --> 00:30:10.634 And do you ever get tired? 663 00:30:10.634 --> 00:30:13.267 And he said "Our system works, and when it works it is 664 00:30:13.267 --> 00:30:15.501 amazing." And that is so right. 665 00:30:15.501 --> 00:30:18.167 I have such respect for the genius of our system. 666 00:30:18.167 --> 00:30:21.334 It's complicated. 667 00:30:21.334 --> 00:30:24.501 It's often not pretty. 668 00:30:24.501 --> 00:30:27.868 Not everything you want to get done gets done. 669 00:30:27.868 --> 00:30:31.767 But it does allow for this amazing democracy, and it allows 670 00:30:31.767 --> 00:30:35.567 for education reform and health care reform. 671 00:30:35.567 --> 00:30:38.667 It allows us to move forward and get things done on energy. 672 00:30:38.667 --> 00:30:40.834 And what we want most is -- will help our economy to start 673 00:30:40.834 --> 00:30:43.000 to thrive and grow and innovate again and for people to have 674 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.133 security and jobs. 675 00:30:45.133 --> 00:30:47.300 One of the great tributes to 676 00:30:47.300 --> 00:30:49.467 Senator Kennedy was, 677 00:30:49.467 --> 00:30:52.167 in fact, as people stepped forward to say at the time of 678 00:30:52.167 --> 00:30:54.901 his death, was that he understood 679 00:30:54.901 --> 00:30:57.901 the power of compromise. 680 00:30:57.901 --> 00:31:00.734 He understood that legislation was a process of which people 681 00:31:00.734 --> 00:31:03.501 with different ideas had to come together and make compromises, 682 00:31:03.501 --> 00:31:05.834 and he was prepared to do that -- not sacrifice principle but 683 00:31:05.834 --> 00:31:08.067 understand you have to make compromise and you will not get 684 00:31:08.067 --> 00:31:10.234 everything you want, but you can always come 685 00:31:10.234 --> 00:31:12.133 back another day. 686 00:31:12.133 --> 00:31:13.801 Right, absolutely. 687 00:31:13.801 --> 00:31:15.534 So what's, finally, your day like? 688 00:31:15.534 --> 00:31:18.968 What time do you get up? 689 00:31:18.968 --> 00:31:20.667 We all read about your marriage. 690 00:31:20.667 --> 00:31:22.200 That was about a year ag wasn't it? 691 00:31:22.200 --> 00:31:23.601 Yes, 15 months. 692 00:31:23.601 --> 00:31:26.567 We're an old married couple now. 693 00:31:26.567 --> 00:31:27.868 Exactly. 694 00:31:27.868 --> 00:31:29.100 And he's a very attractive guy who I've met. 695 00:31:29.100 --> 00:31:30.501 And so what's your day like? 696 00:31:30.501 --> 00:31:32.968 You get up at 5:00? 4:00. 697 00:31:32.968 --> 00:31:34.400 Oh, gosh. 698 00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:36.934 7:00? 9:00? 699 00:31:36.934 --> 00:31:38.334 I should get up at 4:00 so I could do a little 700 00:31:38.334 --> 00:31:39.934 more exercise in the morning. 701 00:31:39.934 --> 00:31:41.334 I get up really early. 702 00:31:41.334 --> 00:31:42.767 What's "really early" though? 703 00:31:42.767 --> 00:31:44.067 Usually about 5:45 or so. 704 00:31:44.067 --> 00:31:45.534 OK. 705 00:31:45.534 --> 00:31:50.133 So that's really early. 706 00:31:50.133 --> 00:31:52.334 It's a little dark, particularly in winter. 707 00:31:52.334 --> 00:31:54.234 So you get to your desk at what time? 708 00:31:54.234 --> 00:31:56.334 So I'll get to my desk usually 709 00:31:56.334 --> 00:31:58.734 about 7:45 or 8:00. 710 00:31:58.734 --> 00:32:01.701 Go into get ready -- 711 00:32:01.701 --> 00:32:04.467 Brief the president everyday almost? 712 00:32:04.467 --> 00:32:07.234 We have an economic daily briefing which is 713 00:32:07.234 --> 00:32:10.133 not necessarily every day but almost every day. 714 00:32:10.133 --> 00:32:12.567 Does everybody speak up, or mostly? 715 00:32:12.567 --> 00:32:15.167 Well, they're usually presentations on various 716 00:32:15.167 --> 00:32:17.300 issues or roundup of the issues, and then a conversation 717 00:32:17.300 --> 00:32:19.434 and a discussion. 718 00:32:19.434 --> 00:32:21.534 There are lots and lots and lots of meetings. 719 00:32:21.534 --> 00:32:23.667 From outside and inside, 720 00:32:23.667 --> 00:32:25.767 Congressional people and 721 00:32:25.767 --> 00:32:28.334 all that, staffers. 722 00:32:28.334 --> 00:32:31.033 Yes, throughout the day. 723 00:32:31.033 --> 00:32:33.801 You must talk to Arne Duncan once or twice a day, and -- 724 00:32:33.801 --> 00:32:36.868 which is a pleasure. 725 00:32:36.868 --> 00:32:39.667 And then other meetings an briefings with the president 726 00:32:39.667 --> 00:32:42.300 that are topic-driven or decision-driven. 727 00:32:42.300 --> 00:32:44.501 We'll go through a process and come to is it a or is it b, and 728 00:32:44.501 --> 00:32:46.634 go through that process with him. 729 00:32:46.634 --> 00:32:48.834 You eat lunch in the White House cafeteria or do 730 00:32:48.834 --> 00:32:51.400 you go out, or what? 731 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:53.968 Going out some days seems like you might as 732 00:32:53.968 --> 00:32:56.133 well be going to Siberia. 733 00:32:56.133 --> 00:32:58.400 So run down, grab a sandwich, and bring it back up. 734 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.567 So what time do you go home 735 00:33:00.567 --> 00:33:02.868 generally, most days? 736 00:33:02.868 --> 00:33:04.767 Most days probably about 8:45, 9:00. 737 00:33:04.767 --> 00:33:06.701 Take work home? 738 00:33:06.701 --> 00:33:08.601 Work is -- It's always there. 739 00:33:08.601 --> 00:33:10.534 Because there's a phone call or 740 00:33:10.534 --> 00:33:12.467 somebody who needs 741 00:33:12.467 --> 00:33:15.033 something and you're the only person -- 742 00:33:15.033 --> 00:33:17.601 Review a document, make a decision, a 743 00:33:17.601 --> 00:33:21.000 problem has come up, have to talk to someone, just trying to 744 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:24.567 move things along. 745 00:33:24.567 --> 00:33:27.834 Or great idea, how do we get this going? 746 00:33:27.834 --> 00:33:30.534 Talking to my deputy Heather, talking to my chief of staff or 747 00:33:30.534 --> 00:33:33.033 someone else on my staff or the chief of staff's office, a call 748 00:33:33.033 --> 00:33:38.934 from Rahm, a call from Rahm, a call from Rahm. 749 00:33:38.934 --> 00:33:42.267 And then another call from Rahm. 750 00:33:42.267 --> 00:33:45.234 Or he appears. 751 00:33:45.234 --> 00:33:47.968 A couple of emails along the way. 752 00:33:47.968 --> 00:33:50.267 All that makes up the day. 753 00:33:50.267 --> 00:33:52.501 And I think the thing about these jobs is it that it never 754 00:33:52.501 --> 00:33:54.667 stops because even when it's quiet your 755 00:33:54.667 --> 00:33:56.801 brain is always going. 756 00:33:56.801 --> 00:33:58.767 You're always thinking about it. 757 00:33:58.767 --> 00:34:01.334 And I see that -- the president and he reads these letters and 758 00:34:01.334 --> 00:34:03.801 these problems, and all of us coming at him all the time. 759 00:34:03.801 --> 00:34:06.100 It's just always with you. 760 00:34:06.100 --> 00:34:08.734 But the thing you realize is the government never stops because 761 00:34:08.734 --> 00:34:11.601 the needs of the people never stop. 762 00:34:11.601 --> 00:34:14.901 And that's what makes in the end satisfying? 763 00:34:14.901 --> 00:34:18.267 It is the most amazing opportunity. 764 00:34:18.267 --> 00:34:21.334 I would not trade for all of its complexity and the 765 00:34:21.334 --> 00:34:23.868 difficulty and the craziness, the missed calls from my family 766 00:34:23.868 --> 00:34:26.033 and friends, I would not trade this opportunity this moment in 767 00:34:26.033 --> 00:34:28.167 time, because it is one of the ultimate calls to service, to 768 00:34:28.167 --> 00:34:32.367 making it different. 769 00:34:32.367 --> 00:34:36.400 We started with education. 770 00:34:36.400 --> 00:34:40.434 When I go and I look at some kid or shaking hands at graduation 771 00:34:40.434 --> 00:34:44.467 and I realize we've been able to contribute or will contribute 772 00:34:44.467 --> 00:34:47.767 to making it better or like this for all these kids or helping 773 00:34:47.767 --> 00:34:50.734 all these people who need jobs and want security, just want the 774 00:34:50.734 --> 00:34:53.467 American dream for their family, you realize you are lucky. 775 00:34:53.467 --> 00:34:56.000 You are lucky to serve. 776 00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:58.400 Thank you for coming. 777 00:34:58.400 --> 00:35:00.501 Thank you so much for having me. 778 00:35:00.501 --> 00:35:02.367 Melody Barnes, chief domestic adviser to the 779 00:35:02.367 --> 00:35:03.968 president of the United States. 780 00:35:03.968 --> 00:35:05.934 What a pleasure it is to have you. 781 00:35:05.934 --> 00:35:13.801 Thank you. 782 00:35:13.801 --> 00:35:16.267 For centuries, the existence of 100-foot waves 783 00:35:16.267 --> 00:35:18.767 was brushed off as myth or extreme exaggeration. 784 00:35:18.767 --> 00:35:21.534 Only in the last ten years have scientists gathered enough 785 00:35:21.534 --> 00:35:24.467 evidence to conclude otherwise. 786 00:35:24.467 --> 00:35:27.367 Laird Hamilton, the extreme surfer who seeks out those 787 00:35:27.367 --> 00:35:29.801 monstrous waves, Susan Casey is an author who writes about them 788 00:35:29.801 --> 00:35:31.868 in "The Wave -- In Pursuit of the Rogues, Freaks, and Giants 789 00:35:31.868 --> 00:35:34.000 of the Ocean." I'm pleased to have both of them at this table 790 00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:39.267 for the first time. Welcome. 791 00:35:39.267 --> 00:35:41.567 So which is he, a rogue or a freak or a giant? 792 00:35:41.567 --> 00:35:43.801 I think we established that he's all three. 793 00:35:43.801 --> 00:35:47.434 It was "yes" on that question. 794 00:35:47.434 --> 00:35:50.334 She said are you rogue? Yes. 795 00:35:50.334 --> 00:35:54.000 Are you? Yes. 796 00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:55.834 So what's this book about? 797 00:35:55.834 --> 00:35:57.667 It about the most powerful force 798 00:35:57.667 --> 00:35:59.467 of nature I would 799 00:35:59.467 --> 00:36:02.634 like to say outside of the sun, giant waves in the ocean, all 800 00:36:02.634 --> 00:36:05.334 different kind of giant waves -- rogue waves which are waves 801 00:36:05.334 --> 00:36:07.968 two and three times as big as the seas around them and giant 802 00:36:07.968 --> 00:36:10.534 storm waves that Laird and his cohorts surf and then tsunamis, 803 00:36:10.534 --> 00:36:13.133 which we got -- 804 00:36:13.133 --> 00:36:15.734 The monster of all waves. 805 00:36:15.734 --> 00:36:18.367 The monster of all waves. 806 00:36:18.367 --> 00:36:21.133 And so what's the fascination for you? 807 00:36:21.133 --> 00:36:23.734 What brought you to this? 808 00:36:23.734 --> 00:36:25.934 I'm ver interested in things that are 809 00:36:25.934 --> 00:36:28.634 both beautiful and terrifying, and particularly in the ocean. 810 00:36:28.634 --> 00:36:31.901 My first book was about a neighborhood of 811 00:36:31.901 --> 00:36:35.267 great white sharks. 812 00:36:35.267 --> 00:36:38.033 And giant waves are all of those things, plus there's such 813 00:36:38.033 --> 00:36:40.868 a deep mystery to the fact that in the dark heart of the ocean 814 00:36:40.868 --> 00:36:43.133 there's so much power going on that we really 815 00:36:43.133 --> 00:36:45.367 don't fully understand. 816 00:36:45.367 --> 00:36:47.634 We're not there yet it's our planet, most of our planet. 817 00:36:47.634 --> 00:36:49.868 When you think of a great wave, 818 00:36:49.868 --> 00:36:54.968 what do you think? Opportunity? 819 00:36:54.968 --> 00:36:58.267 Opportunity, and the uniqueness, really, of 820 00:36:58.267 --> 00:37:01.467 it, that they're not -- I wish they were more abundant than 821 00:37:01.467 --> 00:37:04.868 they really are, that they're really like a fine gem or 822 00:37:04.868 --> 00:37:07.701 something that takes so many variables to create the 823 00:37:07.701 --> 00:37:10.100 opportunity that makes each one unique and special. 824 00:37:10.100 --> 00:37:12.434 I said what do awe great surfers have, and you 825 00:37:12.434 --> 00:37:15.634 said dedication. 826 00:37:15.634 --> 00:37:19.200 Dedication to? 827 00:37:19.200 --> 00:37:22.267 To waiting and being prepared for the 828 00:37:22.267 --> 00:37:25.367 opportunity when they come you'll be able to be there and 829 00:37:25.367 --> 00:37:28.901 ride them, because it's such a unique situation to have 830 00:37:28.901 --> 00:37:33.067 everything kind of aligned. 831 00:37:33.067 --> 00:37:36.868 The planets, the stars, the tide, the wind, all of the 832 00:37:36.868 --> 00:37:40.234 things come together to create the experience that each one is 833 00:37:40.234 --> 00:37:44.000 so unique and so special that it takes years of your life to get 834 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:47.067 the opportunity, get the experience to be able to do it. 835 00:37:47.067 --> 00:37:49.834 You don't just get the experience within a year, 836 00:37:49.834 --> 00:37:53.334 because you might only get 10, 15, 20 good days during one 837 00:37:53.334 --> 00:37:56.434 season that's a great season. 838 00:37:56.434 --> 00:38:00.300 A great season is 10, 12 days? 839 00:38:00.300 --> 00:38:03.667 Of big surf, absolutely, and maybe only three 840 00:38:03.667 --> 00:38:07.634 or four of extremely big. 841 00:38:07.634 --> 00:38:11.334 It might be five seasons before you have a great giant day. 842 00:38:11.334 --> 00:38:14.767 What makes him good? 843 00:38:14.767 --> 00:38:18.133 Well, I think of Laird as sort of half human and 844 00:38:18.133 --> 00:38:21.300 half Neptunian. 845 00:38:21.300 --> 00:38:24.200 That's, like, the ultimate compliment coming from me, 846 00:38:24.200 --> 00:38:26.901 because that's my dream is to be half human half Neptunian. 847 00:38:26.901 --> 00:38:31.033 You know, when you see somebody absolutely in their element, 848 00:38:31.033 --> 00:38:35.601 that's how Laird is when he's in the ocean in -- particularly 849 00:38:35.601 --> 00:38:39.267 in the ocean in extreme conditions. 850 00:38:39.267 --> 00:38:42.534 You just see all the wheels in the track, like he comes alive 851 00:38:42.534 --> 00:38:45.667 at that particular moment and there isn't anybody else who is 852 00:38:45.667 --> 00:38:48.300 even close to him. 853 00:38:48.300 --> 00:38:50.534 He won't say that, but I can say that. 854 00:38:50.534 --> 00:38:52.467 There's no one in second place as they sometimes 855 00:38:52.467 --> 00:38:54.167 say about people like him? 856 00:38:54.167 --> 00:38:55.667 No. 857 00:38:55.667 --> 00:38:57.067 Nobody? 858 00:38:57.067 --> 00:38:58.601 No. 859 00:38:58.601 --> 00:39:00.000 Even now. 860 00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:01.567 Even after being at it -- 861 00:39:01.567 --> 00:39:05.200 Now that I'm old. 862 00:39:05.200 --> 00:39:06.734 For a good long time. 863 00:39:06.734 --> 00:39:08.434 See, when they start calling you a legend, you 864 00:39:08.434 --> 00:39:12.367 better watch out. 865 00:39:12.367 --> 00:39:14.067 I'm getting benefited from a legend. 866 00:39:14.067 --> 00:39:15.868 You go from legend to lifetime 867 00:39:15.868 --> 00:39:17.467 achievement award. 868 00:39:17.467 --> 00:39:18.901 That's what will happen. 869 00:39:18.901 --> 00:39:20.467 I'm an active legend. 870 00:39:20.467 --> 00:39:23.901 That's the difference. 871 00:39:23.901 --> 00:39:25.501 Yes, that's right. 872 00:39:25.501 --> 00:39:27.901 I don't know. 873 00:39:27.901 --> 00:39:29.968 I ended the book feeling as though there's no winding down 874 00:39:29.968 --> 00:39:32.267 happening here. 875 00:39:32.267 --> 00:39:34.767 In fact, he's inventing new machines, new ways to ride even 876 00:39:34.767 --> 00:39:37.267 bigger waves. 877 00:39:37.267 --> 00:39:39.968 And one of the things that I discovered in the book, I talked 878 00:39:39.968 --> 00:39:42.801 to a lot of scientists about waves that were happening in 879 00:39:42.801 --> 00:39:45.968 intense storms, say, in the north Atlantic or off the 880 00:39:45.968 --> 00:39:49.367 southeast coast of Africa that were disappearing ships. 881 00:39:49.367 --> 00:39:52.434 And with more volatile conditions in the ocean and 882 00:39:52.434 --> 00:39:55.968 extremes becoming more extreme in weather and in nature, they 883 00:39:55.968 --> 00:39:59.501 all believe that these waves are going to become bigger and 884 00:39:59.501 --> 00:40:02.400 the biggest storms will become bigger. 885 00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:04.834 So, you know, I believe that he's going to be ready for that. 886 00:40:04.834 --> 00:40:06.934 I mean, that's really the life's goal is to be 887 00:40:06.934 --> 00:40:08.734 prepared -- 888 00:40:08.734 --> 00:40:10.667 For the moment? 889 00:40:10.667 --> 00:40:12.901 Yes. 890 00:40:12.901 --> 00:40:15.100 And you don't know when it is. 891 00:40:15.100 --> 00:40:17.234 It could be today. 892 00:40:17.234 --> 00:40:19.534 But it's not going to be today, but I know it could be that's 893 00:40:19.534 --> 00:40:22.067 the kind of notice you're going to get. 894 00:40:22.067 --> 00:40:25.000 How do you know you'll be there? 895 00:40:25.000 --> 00:40:27.934 If you think it's a remote possibility, you here that? 896 00:40:27.934 --> 00:40:30.400 And because my life is set up so that I'm in 897 00:40:30.400 --> 00:40:33.000 the north Pacific where the largest storms have the 898 00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.601 potential to be during the prime system when they're going 899 00:40:35.601 --> 00:40:38.501 to happen. 900 00:40:38.501 --> 00:40:41.601 And so at a certain point, I could be sick or injured, but 901 00:40:41.601 --> 00:40:44.467 I'm trying to reduce the variables as much as I can so 902 00:40:44.467 --> 00:40:47.334 that I have the most amount of opportunity by being in the 903 00:40:47.334 --> 00:40:50.200 right location, being physically mentally prepared, and then we 904 00:40:50.200 --> 00:40:52.934 let nature take its course. 905 00:40:52.934 --> 00:40:55.567 And so far it's been delivering. 906 00:40:55.567 --> 00:40:59.033 How many times have you thought you bought it? 907 00:40:59.033 --> 00:41:02.834 More than I want to count. 908 00:41:02.834 --> 00:41:05.934 When you started this out, all you wanted to do 909 00:41:05.934 --> 00:41:08.734 was tell us about the force of great waves, the magic of them, 910 00:41:08.734 --> 00:41:11.167 the power of them, the fear of them, the beauty of them, and 911 00:41:11.167 --> 00:41:13.534 what else? 912 00:41:13.534 --> 00:41:16.234 The mystery of them. 913 00:41:16.234 --> 00:41:19.601 And the mystery. 914 00:41:19.601 --> 00:41:23.567 Definitely the mystery of them. 915 00:41:23.567 --> 00:41:27.634 And how is it that it was in 1995 that scientists finally had 916 00:41:27.634 --> 00:41:31.934 to reckon with the fact that there are rogue waves because 917 00:41:31.934 --> 00:41:36.100 in 38-foot seas an 85 foot wave hit an oil rig in the North Sea 918 00:41:36.100 --> 00:41:40.000 on New Year's Day and there was really no denying it because it 919 00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:44.000 was measured by laser and it hit the rig at 85 feet. 920 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:47.734 And until then rogue waves were considered to be tall tales, 921 00:41:47.734 --> 00:41:51.667 mariners tall tells, or if there had been a measurement and 922 00:41:51.667 --> 00:41:55.501 there was a spike, like an anomaly, scientists would just 923 00:41:55.501 --> 00:41:59.200 erase that thinking that was some sort of mistake. 924 00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:02.701 Now here was actual documented proof that this can happen, and 925 00:42:02.701 --> 00:42:05.601 yet there was no means in our sort of understanding how the 926 00:42:05.601 --> 00:42:08.267 ocean works and ocean physics to explain it. 927 00:42:08.267 --> 00:42:10.567 And so why did they think 100-foot 928 00:42:10.567 --> 00:42:13.133 wave was not possible? 929 00:42:13.133 --> 00:42:15.567 It wasn't that it wasn't possible, because it 930 00:42:15.567 --> 00:42:18.267 comes along in big storms. 931 00:42:18.267 --> 00:42:20.968 It was that it wasn't possible in 32-foot seas. 932 00:42:20.968 --> 00:42:23.367 And this is the thing that a rogue wave is. 933 00:42:23.367 --> 00:42:25.734 It's a wave that's just much, much bigger, two, three, 934 00:42:25.734 --> 00:42:27.767 sometimes even four times bigger than the waves around it. 935 00:42:27.767 --> 00:42:30.367 And why does that happen? 936 00:42:30.367 --> 00:42:33.234 It didn't make any sense with linear 937 00:42:33.234 --> 00:42:35.667 mechanics or linear physics. 938 00:42:35.667 --> 00:42:37.701 It took the notion of quantum physics and in particular the 939 00:42:37.701 --> 00:42:39.934 nonlinear Schrodinger equation to figure out that this is not 940 00:42:39.934 --> 00:42:41.868 one plus one equals two. 941 00:42:41.868 --> 00:42:44.234 It's one plus one equals 12. 942 00:42:44.234 --> 00:42:46.901 One wave comes along and pirates this 943 00:42:46.901 --> 00:42:49.367 energy from other waves. 944 00:42:49.367 --> 00:42:51.834 And scientists really think didn't think it was possible, 945 00:42:51.834 --> 00:42:54.801 but then they were faced with the proof. 946 00:42:54.801 --> 00:42:57.534 Now what is toe surfing? 947 00:42:57.534 --> 00:43:00.968 It's a technique we develop to ride 948 00:43:00.968 --> 00:43:04.267 waves that are physically impossible to ride manually in 949 00:43:04.267 --> 00:43:07.534 the conventional way of doing it. 950 00:43:07.534 --> 00:43:10.734 We started it by accident in the summer time with a zodiac 951 00:43:10.734 --> 00:43:14.334 boat and outboard engine towing around, and then we caught a 952 00:43:14.334 --> 00:43:18.267 wave and thought, oh, we can use this to ride bigger surf and 953 00:43:18.267 --> 00:43:22.701 then we implemented it in the wintertime and it allowed us to 954 00:43:22.701 --> 00:43:26.667 ride waves that were virtually un-rideable before that. 955 00:43:26.667 --> 00:43:30.467 So we went from riding waves that had faces between 30 to 40 956 00:43:30.467 --> 00:43:33.834 feet into 60, 70, 80 and then on up, you know, 100-foot faces 957 00:43:33.834 --> 00:43:37.033 that we were able to catch the waves. 958 00:43:37.033 --> 00:43:40.334 And we use foot straps, a jet-ski and a technique in this 959 00:43:40.334 --> 00:43:43.033 which we can get towed on to them. 960 00:43:43.033 --> 00:43:45.367 A little bit like the space shuttle can't fly on its own, it 961 00:43:45.367 --> 00:43:47.601 has to take off on the back of a plane, but once it flies it 962 00:43:47.601 --> 00:43:49.834 can fly around. 963 00:43:49.834 --> 00:43:51.968 So it's like that concept. 964 00:43:51.968 --> 00:43:54.100 It's an assist to get you up and on. 965 00:43:54.100 --> 00:43:56.400 What do you work on to get better? 966 00:43:56.400 --> 00:43:58.400 The first thing -- 967 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.133 Is it mental, too? 968 00:44:00.133 --> 00:44:02.300 The mos important thing I 969 00:44:02.300 --> 00:44:04.734 work on is the physical. 970 00:44:04.734 --> 00:44:07.701 Just you being -- 971 00:44:07.701 --> 00:44:10.834 But not only being stronger but more agile 972 00:44:10.834 --> 00:44:14.501 and being all around just better conditioned, which at the 973 00:44:14.501 --> 00:44:17.534 end -- because I feel like when you're at a certain level and 974 00:44:17.534 --> 00:44:20.601 activity, to get better at that level of activity you're better 975 00:44:20.601 --> 00:44:24.100 off making the organism stronger and more efficient and then 976 00:44:24.100 --> 00:44:27.367 doing the activity. 977 00:44:27.367 --> 00:44:30.767 And then your improvements will be much greater if you tried to 978 00:44:30.767 --> 00:44:33.567 involve a level of talent that you've evolved for 30 years. 979 00:44:33.567 --> 00:44:36.167 The increments of learning would be so small where if you 980 00:44:36.167 --> 00:44:39.801 got all of a sudden 10 percent stronger you get a huge increase 981 00:44:39.801 --> 00:44:43.634 in your performance. 982 00:44:43.634 --> 00:44:46.801 That's the extraordinary thing about all 983 00:44:46.801 --> 00:44:49.634 sports today is how all of them have come to appreciate and to 984 00:44:49.634 --> 00:44:52.267 achieve better physicality. 985 00:44:52.267 --> 00:44:54.767 Absolutely. 986 00:44:54.767 --> 00:44:57.300 In every way. 987 00:44:57.300 --> 00:44:59.968 Whether it's Pilates or -- 988 00:44:59.968 --> 00:45:02.234 More flexible, stronger. 989 00:45:02.234 --> 00:45:04.434 Yoga, whatever it might be. 990 00:45:04.434 --> 00:45:06.767 Which results ultimately in 991 00:45:06.767 --> 00:45:09.334 more mental confidence. 992 00:45:09.334 --> 00:45:11.501 So that's where the mental confidence comes in. 993 00:45:11.501 --> 00:45:13.634 If you know you're evolving stronger, more flexible, you're 994 00:45:13.634 --> 00:45:15.734 getting all the rest, all that, then you're mentally going to 995 00:45:15.734 --> 00:45:17.534 be a lot -- 996 00:45:17.534 --> 00:45:19.400 I want to 997 00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:21.300 show you this. -- 998 00:45:21.300 --> 00:45:23.234 Flying off the top of the wave. 999 00:45:23.234 --> 00:45:24.934 So what are you -- go ahead. 1000 00:45:24.934 --> 00:45:27.167 I would just point out one thing. 1001 00:45:27.167 --> 00:45:29.067 That picture was taken before they started 1002 00:45:29.067 --> 00:45:31.000 wearing flotation vests. 1003 00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:33.434 And the flotation vests help them avoid being pinned down by 1004 00:45:33.434 --> 00:45:35.567 the wave. 1005 00:45:35.567 --> 00:45:37.701 And one of the questions that I really wanted to answer in this 1006 00:45:37.701 --> 00:45:40.000 book is what happens if you fall on a 70, 80-foot wave? 1007 00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.701 How does that work out? 1008 00:45:42.701 --> 00:45:45.300 So what happens? 1009 00:45:45.300 --> 00:45:48.133 So what happens is they're driven down very 1010 00:45:48.133 --> 00:45:51.434 quickly, very deep, 30, 40 feet on a wave like this one, and 1011 00:45:51.434 --> 00:45:54.534 occasionally that quick pressure change can make the 1012 00:45:54.534 --> 00:45:57.133 eardrums blow out, which then, of course, affects equilibrium. 1013 00:45:57.133 --> 00:45:59.767 But the good news with the flotation vest is at least 1014 00:45:59.767 --> 00:46:02.400 they're not going to be down there for as long 1015 00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:05.267 as they might be. 1016 00:46:05.267 --> 00:46:08.033 The thing that can happen is they're just not sure which way 1017 00:46:08.033 --> 00:46:10.734 is up, everything is black because of the white water. 1018 00:46:10.734 --> 00:46:13.667 And in jaws, the wave shown in this picture, there are little 1019 00:46:13.667 --> 00:46:16.567 caves and places where a surfer can get stuck. 1020 00:46:16.567 --> 00:46:19.334 So this extra flotation brings them to the surface. 1021 00:46:19.334 --> 00:46:21.868 So seeing this picture of Laird dropping in on a wave like that 1022 00:46:21.868 --> 00:46:24.300 with no flotation vest is a little bit like watching 1023 00:46:24.300 --> 00:46:26.734 somebody play a little bit of Russian roulette. 1024 00:46:26.734 --> 00:46:28.801 Russian roulette, yes. 1025 00:46:28.801 --> 00:46:30.634 So what's your level now of surfing? 1026 00:46:30.634 --> 00:46:32.234 Certainly you're never going to see me on a wave 1027 00:46:32.234 --> 00:46:35.601 like this. 1028 00:46:35.601 --> 00:46:37.300 Of course not. 1029 00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:38.968 But I think where I got to the 1030 00:46:38.968 --> 00:46:40.667 point where I could 1031 00:46:40.667 --> 00:46:43.234 be on a jet-ski near a wave like this and if I fell in or 1032 00:46:43.234 --> 00:46:45.667 somehow got tangled up in it I probably could have survived. 1033 00:46:45.667 --> 00:46:48.000 I wore the same safety gear they did. 1034 00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:50.033 I have a lot of experience as an open-water swimmer, but I'm 1035 00:46:50.033 --> 00:46:51.801 never going to be a great surfer. 1036 00:46:51.801 --> 00:46:53.968 But do you have a passion to 1037 00:46:53.968 --> 00:46:55.968 get better and better? 1038 00:46:55.968 --> 00:46:57.968 I love surfing. 1039 00:46:57.968 --> 00:46:59.968 The thing is, I think that if you start it later in life like 1040 00:46:59.968 --> 00:47:01.968 I did there's a limit. 1041 00:47:01.968 --> 00:47:04.133 But there's a new kind of surfing -- 1042 00:47:04.133 --> 00:47:06.400 There's a wall you bounce up against? 1043 00:47:06.400 --> 00:47:09.067 Yes, there's only so many times I really want to 1044 00:47:09.067 --> 00:47:11.667 take a terrible fall. 1045 00:47:11.667 --> 00:47:14.100 But it's -- I have to say there's something about it. 1046 00:47:14.100 --> 00:47:16.434 We have a new technique of surfing with a pad 1047 00:47:16.434 --> 00:47:18.734 where will you stand and you paddle with a paddle. 1048 00:47:18.734 --> 00:47:20.934 It's an old discipline but we're -- 1049 00:47:20.934 --> 00:47:23.100 It's gotten a lot of attention this summer. 1050 00:47:23.100 --> 00:47:24.968 There was a big article in the "New York Times" about it. 1051 00:47:24.968 --> 00:47:26.901 It's incredible. 1052 00:47:26.901 --> 00:47:28.801 Why is it incredible? 1053 00:47:28.801 --> 00:47:30.767 It's something I want to do. 1054 00:47:30.767 --> 00:47:32.467 First of all because you're standing on the 1055 00:47:32.467 --> 00:47:34.267 water, so the position is a great position to be in so 1056 00:47:34.267 --> 00:47:36.100 you're up and your visibility is increased. 1057 00:47:36.100 --> 00:47:37.734 That's good. 1058 00:47:37.734 --> 00:47:39.434 Your hands and legs aren't in the water which people don't 1059 00:47:39.434 --> 00:47:41.234 necessarily like all the time because what's in the water they 1060 00:47:41.234 --> 00:47:43.701 don't know. 1061 00:47:43.701 --> 00:47:46.300 So they have a psychological aspect in that. 1062 00:47:46.300 --> 00:47:49.133 And then just the fitness of it, because it's the whole body 1063 00:47:49.133 --> 00:47:52.267 -- abs, feet, hands. 1064 00:47:52.267 --> 00:47:55.434 And then we surf big waves with this as well. 1065 00:47:55.434 --> 00:47:58.601 So it's a whole -- there's a -- it allows people that don't surf 1066 00:47:58.601 --> 00:48:01.367 to get out and ride a board on flat water and it allows a 1067 00:48:01.367 --> 00:48:04.033 bigger spectrum of people to participate in the sport of 1068 00:48:04.033 --> 00:48:06.901 surfing, which a discipline like riding jaws you're going to 1069 00:48:06.901 --> 00:48:09.267 have very few people do it. 1070 00:48:09.267 --> 00:48:11.601 Do you know why you like this kind of thing? 1071 00:48:11.601 --> 00:48:13.601 I can always just remember being so fascinated 1072 00:48:13.601 --> 00:48:15.367 with water. 1073 00:48:15.367 --> 00:48:16.934 And I actually don't do that 1074 00:48:16.934 --> 00:48:19.701 well on land. I -- 1075 00:48:19.701 --> 00:48:21.267 Yes? 1076 00:48:21.267 --> 00:48:22.701 No, stop, explain that to us. 1077 00:48:22.701 --> 00:48:24.467 I don't know. 1078 00:48:24.467 --> 00:48:26.767 I just always feel like a little bit -- I'm always 1079 00:48:26.767 --> 00:48:28.734 a little bit klutzy. 1080 00:48:28.734 --> 00:48:30.434 But in the water that's kind of where it all comes together. 1081 00:48:30.434 --> 00:48:32.234 More at home in the water than walking? 1082 00:48:32.234 --> 00:48:35.267 For sure. 1083 00:48:35.267 --> 00:48:36.601 Maybe that's because when you're in the water 1084 00:48:36.601 --> 00:48:37.868 you're busy? 1085 00:48:37.868 --> 00:48:39.033 I don't know. 1086 00:48:39.033 --> 00:48:40.434 There's a sense of freedom. 1087 00:48:40.434 --> 00:48:41.734 You're weightless. 1088 00:48:41.734 --> 00:48:43.200 It's beautiful. 1089 00:48:43.200 --> 00:48:44.801 I love the creatures that are in the water. 1090 00:48:44.801 --> 00:48:46.501 And I mean all of them. 1091 00:48:46.501 --> 00:48:48.267 Your great line is that -- 1092 00:48:48.267 --> 00:48:49.868 She's a shark whisperer, actually. 1093 00:48:49.868 --> 00:48:51.567 A communion of spirits. 1094 00:48:51.567 --> 00:48:53.067 Multiple times she says to me you wouldn't 1095 00:48:53.067 --> 00:48:54.467 believe what happened? 1096 00:48:54.467 --> 00:48:56.033 I said you saw another giant shark when you were swimming? 1097 00:48:56.033 --> 00:48:57.434 She's like how do you know? 1098 00:48:57.434 --> 00:48:58.734 Because that's what you do. 1099 00:48:58.734 --> 00:49:00.200 You know what you famously said which I love -- 1100 00:49:00.200 --> 00:49:01.567 the ocean is my church. 1101 00:49:01.567 --> 00:49:03.067 It is. 1102 00:49:03.067 --> 00:49:04.834 I think we share that sentiment. 1103 00:49:04.834 --> 00:49:06.567 Absolutely. 1104 00:49:06.567 --> 00:49:08.767 My dad said once big wave riders are born and not made. 1105 00:49:08.767 --> 00:49:11.167 And it's just like Susan's love for the ocean. 1106 00:49:11.167 --> 00:49:13.267 She was born it with it. 1107 00:49:13.267 --> 00:49:15.133 And I don't care if you're born in the middle of Texas. 1108 00:49:15.133 --> 00:49:17.367 You have a thing, a desire, it draws you to it. 1109 00:49:17.367 --> 00:49:19.334 You're drawn to it. 1110 00:49:19.334 --> 00:49:21.534 You don't know why. 1111 00:49:21.534 --> 00:49:23.434 You can't really put your fingers on it, 1112 00:49:23.434 --> 00:49:25.501 but you have a connection. 1113 00:49:25.501 --> 00:49:27.267 And Susan has a connection with it like I do, like 1114 00:49:27.267 --> 00:49:29.367 anybody that does. 1115 00:49:29.367 --> 00:49:31.167 You just have that connection, and it's just a matter of 1116 00:49:31.167 --> 00:49:33.067 fulfilling your destiny. 1117 00:49:33.067 --> 00:49:35.501 I think we all innately do, because the planet 1118 00:49:35.501 --> 00:49:38.234 is mostly ocean. 1119 00:49:38.234 --> 00:49:41.200 And, you know, life comes from the ocean. 1120 00:49:41.200 --> 00:49:43.667 And so one of the things I really aim to do with my writing 1121 00:49:43.667 --> 00:49:46.601 is take people into these places and show them the incredible 1122 00:49:46.601 --> 00:49:49.367 majesty and in some cases fear and in 1123 00:49:49.367 --> 00:49:52.267 some cases the wackiness. 1124 00:49:52.267 --> 00:49:55.367 But there's like a parallel universe in our world that we 1125 00:49:55.367 --> 00:49:58.601 live, but how often do we ever see it? 1126 00:49:58.601 --> 00:50:02.334 And I think we have the common goal in that 1127 00:50:02.334 --> 00:50:05.367 sense that that's always been one of my desires is primary 1128 00:50:05.367 --> 00:50:08.167 goal really is to have people appreciate the ocean more, and 1129 00:50:08.167 --> 00:50:10.501 through that appreciation protect, respect all the things 1130 00:50:10.501 --> 00:50:12.734 it means. 1131 00:50:12.734 --> 00:50:14.634 If you appreciate you will revere. 1132 00:50:14.634 --> 00:50:16.868 Absolutely. 1133 00:50:16.868 --> 00:50:18.801 And if you participate then you'll appreciate, 1134 00:50:18.801 --> 00:50:20.567 then you'll revere. 1135 00:50:20.567 --> 00:50:22.133 So all of those things I think are so critical in what needs 1136 00:50:22.133 --> 00:50:23.934 to happen for the ocean. 1137 00:50:23.934 --> 00:50:25.968 We need these books. 1138 00:50:25.968 --> 00:50:27.968 We need these waves. 1139 00:50:27.968 --> 00:50:29.667 We need people to be in awe of them maybe at first, to 1140 00:50:29.667 --> 00:50:31.334 participate in activities, and then ultimately to be proactive 1141 00:50:31.334 --> 00:50:33.000 in trying to protect the ocean. 1142 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.667 if you see a great white shark, 1143 00:50:34.667 --> 00:50:36.334 you can never think 1144 00:50:36.334 --> 00:50:38.267 that, oh, who cares, sharks go. 1145 00:50:38.267 --> 00:50:39.934 You can never think they're -- 1146 00:50:39.934 --> 00:50:41.567 How big is a great white shark? 1147 00:50:41.567 --> 00:50:43.234 They can be all different sizes. 1148 00:50:43.234 --> 00:50:44.868 I've seen them at Monterey at 1149 00:50:44.868 --> 00:50:46.534 the aquarium there. 1150 00:50:46.534 --> 00:50:48.801 Yes, they have them, which I think is fantastic 1151 00:50:48.801 --> 00:50:50.801 even though, yes, it's in captivity. 1152 00:50:50.801 --> 00:50:53.033 As I said if you see one it will change your life. 1153 00:50:53.033 --> 00:50:55.367 That's really a small one, like a five -- they basically come 1154 00:50:55.367 --> 00:50:57.501 in a box, five feet long. 1155 00:50:57.501 --> 00:50:59.701 But 13, 14, the female cans go up to 20. 1156 00:50:59.701 --> 00:51:01.701 And a 20-foot great white shark is eight feet wide. 1157 00:51:01.701 --> 00:51:03.834 It's more like an orca. 1158 00:51:03.834 --> 00:51:05.767 It's kind of like a Cadillac. 1159 00:51:05.767 --> 00:51:07.734 It's wide as the road. 1160 00:51:07.734 --> 00:51:09.501 There was a shark called "The Cadillac." 1161 00:51:09.501 --> 00:51:11.300 I bet. 1162 00:51:11.300 --> 00:51:12.934 Have you noticed how you two can finish each 1163 00:51:12.934 --> 00:51:14.400 other's sentences. 1164 00:51:14.400 --> 00:51:15.834 She can speak for me now. 1165 00:51:15.834 --> 00:51:18.501 Honestly, now, five years. 1166 00:51:18.501 --> 00:51:19.701 How many House? 1167 00:51:19.701 --> 00:51:21.100 How many hours? 1168 00:51:21.100 --> 00:51:22.434 A lot. 1169 00:51:22.434 --> 00:51:23.834 Congratulations. 1170 00:51:23.834 --> 00:51:25.634 Thank you very much. 1171 00:51:25.634 --> 00:51:27.234 That's great. 1172 00:51:27.234 --> 00:51:28.734 And I'm so happy you came. 1173 00:51:28.734 --> 00:51:30.367 This is really -- the thing is that's great about it for me, 1174 00:51:30.367 --> 00:51:32.234 too, nobody owns it. 1175 00:51:32.234 --> 00:51:33.901 Nobody. 1176 00:51:33.901 --> 00:51:35.400 Nobody tells it what to do. 1177 00:51:35.400 --> 00:51:37.100 And the ride is free. 1178 00:51:37.100 --> 00:51:38.634 You don't pay for these rides. 1179 00:51:38.634 --> 00:51:40.234 These are free. 1180 00:51:40.234 --> 00:51:43.701 It might cost you more than you want to pay. 1181 00:51:43.701 --> 00:51:45.534 But they're free to start with. 1182 00:51:45.534 --> 00:51:47.167 That's exactly right. 1183 00:51:47.167 --> 00:51:48.634 It's a beautiful thing. 1184 00:51:48.634 --> 00:51:50.434 Take a board and take a dedication and you're on 1185 00:51:50.434 --> 00:51:52.367 your own. 1186 00:51:52.367 --> 00:51:54.434 Absolutely. 1187 00:51:54.434 --> 00:51:56.200 And there's no wrong way. 1188 00:51:56.200 --> 00:51:57.801 Thank you. 1189 00:51:57.801 --> 00:51:59.801 Thank you. 1190 00:51:59.801 --> 00:52:01.534 Thank you. 1191 00:52:01.534 --> 00:52:03.300 Once again, the book is called "The Wave -- In 1192 00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:05.100 Pursuit of the Rogues and the Freaks and the 1193 00:52:05.100 --> Giants of the Ocean."