WEBVTT 1 00:00:34.434 --> 00:00:35.300 Welcome to our broadcast. 2 00:00:35.300 --> 00:00:38.334 Tonight, we'll explore 25 years of the gay rights movement and 3 00:00:38.334 --> 00:00:42.400 the legacy of the Stonewall riots of 1969. 4 00:00:42.400 --> 00:00:44.133 First I'll be joined by the author of the history of 5 00:00:44.133 --> 00:00:46.267 Stonewall, by a participant in the riots, and by a lesbian 6 00:00:46.267 --> 00:00:48.734 feminist leader. 7 00:00:48.734 --> 00:00:51.133 Then we'll have Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Tony 8 00:00:51.133 --> 00:00:53.234 Kushner and others, who will join me to continue our 9 00:00:53.234 --> 00:00:55.133 discussion, taking the movement up until today and the future. 10 00:00:55.133 --> 00:00:56.801 Finally, actor Ian McKellen will be here. 11 00:00:56.801 --> 00:00:58.801 Jim Fouratt, Barbara Smith, Martin Duberman 12 00:00:58.801 --> 00:01:00.734 We begin with a look at 13 00:01:00.734 --> 00:01:02.767 the meaning of Stonewall. 14 00:01:02.767 --> 00:01:05.100 On June 28, 1969, a riot broke out at the Stonewall Bar in 15 00:01:05.100 --> 00:01:07.367 Greenwich Village. 16 00:01:07.367 --> 00:01:09.534 The gay patrons, who were used to raids on bars where they 17 00:01:09.534 --> 00:01:11.667 chose to meet, decided that they wouldn't take it anymore. 18 00:01:11.667 --> 00:01:13.767 Men in dresses kicked up their heels as lesbians and others 19 00:01:13.767 --> 00:01:15.901 threw bricks and coins at the police. 20 00:01:15.901 --> 00:01:18.234 After five days of riots, a modern gay rights 21 00:01:18.234 --> 00:01:20.934 movement was born. 22 00:01:20.934 --> 00:01:23.801 Joining me now are historian Martin Duberman, author of 23 00:01:23.801 --> 00:01:26.734 Stonewall; riot participant Jim Fouratt, a contributing editor 24 00:01:26.734 --> 00:01:29.667 at Spin magazine and a co-founder of Act Up; and 25 00:01:29.667 --> 00:01:32.667 Barbara Smith, co-founder and publisher of Kitchen Table Women 26 00:01:32.667 --> 00:01:34.834 of Color Press and editor of Home Girls. 27 00:01:34.834 --> 00:01:37.501 I'm pleased to have all of you here and, and to have this 28 00:01:37.501 --> 00:01:38.767 opportunity to take a look not only at the history, but where, 29 00:01:38.767 --> 00:01:40.734 in fact, the gay movement is going, the gay and lesbian 30 00:01:40.734 --> 00:01:42.701 movement is going. 31 00:01:42.701 --> 00:01:44.334 You were there. 32 00:01:44.334 --> 00:01:46.000 Tell me about it. 33 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.267 Well, first of all I'd like to-- there are so 34 00:01:47.267 --> 00:01:48.934 many romantic myths 35 00:01:48.934 --> 00:01:50.000 about Stonewall, particularly in the media. 36 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:51.067 I'd like to say a couple of actual things, 37 00:01:51.067 --> 00:01:52.133 which are-- Judy Garland-- 38 00:01:52.133 --> 00:01:53.901 Have, have I contributed to it at all here-- 39 00:01:53.901 --> 00:01:55.234 No. 40 00:01:55.234 --> 00:01:56.567 --in my opening remarks? 41 00:01:56.567 --> 00:01:57.901 Well-- 42 00:01:57.901 --> 00:01:59.234 Yes, men in dresses. Men in dresses. No men 43 00:01:59.234 --> 00:02:00.534 in dresses. 44 00:02:00.534 --> 00:02:02.234 There were none, no men in dresses there? 45 00:02:02.234 --> 00:02:03.734 There were men in dresses. 46 00:02:03.734 --> 00:02:05.367 There were transvestites. 47 00:02:05.367 --> 00:02:07.100 Well then, okay, okay. 48 00:02:07.100 --> 00:02:08.534 But let-- wait, wait, wait. 49 00:02:08.534 --> 00:02:10.000 I don't want to get-- 50 00:02:10.000 --> 00:02:11.434 Okay. 51 00:02:11.434 --> 00:02:12.868 I want to get to the argument later, but let me 52 00:02:12.868 --> 00:02:14.267 get to the-- 53 00:02:14.267 --> 00:02:15.300 Judy Garland had nothing to do-- 54 00:02:15.300 --> 00:02:16.300 Barbara, help me out here. 55 00:02:16.300 --> 00:02:18.334 I'm trying, Charlie, to help out. 56 00:02:18.334 --> 00:02:19.334 Judy Garland had nothing to do with it. 57 00:02:19.334 --> 00:02:20.501 Right. 58 00:02:20.501 --> 00:02:21.367 There's a lot written and a lot of myth and a 59 00:02:21.367 --> 00:02:23.400 lot of plays being done that says that Judy Garland-- it was 60 00:02:23.400 --> 00:02:25.434 because of Judy Garland that-- 61 00:02:25.434 --> 00:02:28.434 She had died the day before or something. 62 00:02:28.434 --> 00:02:31.133 She was buried that morning. 63 00:02:31.133 --> 00:02:33.667 Morning, that morning. 64 00:02:33.667 --> 00:02:36.334 She had died. 65 00:02:36.334 --> 00:02:39.067 And, number two, the Stonewall bar is not a 66 00:02:39.067 --> 00:02:41.868 symbol of gay liberation. 67 00:02:41.868 --> 00:02:44.734 It is truly a symbol of oppression, and it's a very 68 00:02:44.734 --> 00:02:47.601 powerful symbol of how gay and lesbian people's lives were 69 00:02:47.601 --> 00:02:50.300 controlled by the society that said they were worthless. 70 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:53.234 This particular bar, the Stonewall bar on Christopher 71 00:02:53.234 --> 00:02:55.634 Street, was about the sleaziest example of the Mafia-run bars 72 00:02:55.634 --> 00:02:58.133 you could find in the Village. 73 00:02:58.133 --> 00:03:01.767 It did provide a safe sanctuary for gay men and for closeted gay 74 00:03:01.767 --> 00:03:04.234 men in particular, for runaway kids, the kids whose parents had 75 00:03:04.234 --> 00:03:06.968 thrown them out of their home because they said they were gay, 76 00:03:06.968 --> 00:03:09.267 15 and 16-year-old kids who had to learn how to survive on the 77 00:03:09.267 --> 00:03:12.067 street, sell their bodies. 78 00:03:12.067 --> 00:03:15.234 This was a marketplace, this bar; it was a 79 00:03:15.234 --> 00:03:17.868 terrible, terrible place. 80 00:03:17.868 --> 00:03:20.501 But inside of it, because there was no other places for, for 81 00:03:20.501 --> 00:03:23.133 homosexual men in particular to gather and the kind of 82 00:03:23.133 --> 00:03:25.767 homosexual man that was not even respectable in 83 00:03:25.767 --> 00:03:28.400 1969, the men who 84 00:03:28.400 --> 00:03:31.267 wore dresses, the black and the brown street people, the people 85 00:03:31.267 --> 00:03:33.968 who survived by selling their bodies because there was no 86 00:03:33.968 --> 00:03:37.167 place in the society for them to see themselves. 87 00:03:37.167 --> 00:03:38.167 There was no reflection of them. 88 00:03:38.167 --> 00:03:41.200 That's who was at the Stonewall. 89 00:03:41.200 --> 00:03:45.267 Raids happened all the time in these Mafia bars. 90 00:03:45.267 --> 00:03:48.300 Everybody knew about it; there was a little button that would 91 00:03:48.300 --> 00:03:51.334 be next to the door, the lights would turn off or turn on or 92 00:03:51.334 --> 00:03:53.367 turn their colors when the police were about to arrive, and 93 00:03:53.367 --> 00:03:56.534 all the patrons knew that at that point, when that red light 94 00:03:56.534 --> 00:03:59.701 or that white light went on, people were to stop dancing, 95 00:03:59.701 --> 00:04:03.667 assume heterosexual -- as best they could -- roles, and when 96 00:04:03.667 --> 00:04:06.901 the police came in, pretend it was just another Irish pub. 97 00:04:06.901 --> 00:04:10.400 That was what Stonewall was like: not pretty, not nice, and 98 00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:13.267 it-- fundamentally, what happened that night, 99 00:04:13.267 --> 00:04:15.367 fundamentally changed how lesbians and gays around the 100 00:04:15.367 --> 00:04:17.934 world saw themselves, and from that point forward, it was never 101 00:04:17.934 --> 00:04:20.767 the same. 102 00:04:20.767 --> 00:04:23.400 How did it fundamentally change the way 103 00:04:23.400 --> 00:04:26.367 they saw themselves? 104 00:04:26.367 --> 00:04:29.567 When the police came and they, the-- it was a 105 00:04:29.567 --> 00:04:32.767 script that had been done before. 106 00:04:32.767 --> 00:04:35.968 The, the transvestites, the drag queens, you know, made fun of 107 00:04:35.968 --> 00:04:39.200 the police, and the police acted like police were 108 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:41.400 supposed to act 109 00:04:41.400 --> 00:04:44.300 in the reserve: big tough guys and they were going to push 110 00:04:44.300 --> 00:04:47.400 around ''the girls.'' The girls were the, were 111 00:04:47.400 --> 00:04:50.534 the, the men in dresses. 112 00:04:50.534 --> 00:04:53.067 The-- not fully dresses, women-- because it was against the law. 113 00:04:53.067 --> 00:04:55.567 You had to wear some items of male apparel, or if you were a 114 00:04:55.567 --> 00:04:58.100 female in male garments, you had to wear some items of female 115 00:04:58.100 --> 00:05:00.601 apparel, and that was one of the ways the police 116 00:05:00.601 --> 00:05:04.300 would harass the cross-dressers. 117 00:05:04.300 --> 00:05:07.934 But when they chose to arrest a woman who was dressed as a man 118 00:05:07.934 --> 00:05:11.467 -- she was called a ''passing woman'' in the '90s vocabulary, 119 00:05:11.467 --> 00:05:15.133 but in the vocabulary of the '50s and '60s, she was known as 120 00:05:15.133 --> 00:05:18.734 a bull dyke, a very masculine, butch-acting woman. 121 00:05:18.734 --> 00:05:21.968 When they cuffed her and she had to play her role out of being 122 00:05:21.968 --> 00:05:25.267 stronger and tougher than any of the, the men in, in female 123 00:05:25.267 --> 00:05:28.601 clothing there, they led her outside of the bar, put her in, 124 00:05:28.601 --> 00:05:31.501 in the police car that was outside. 125 00:05:31.501 --> 00:05:34.501 The cuffs were very tight, and she was very angry. 126 00:05:34.501 --> 00:05:37.734 She got in the car, the other side-- the other 127 00:05:37.734 --> 00:05:40.801 door was not locked. 128 00:05:40.801 --> 00:05:44.067 She slipped out, and once-- at this point, it was still 129 00:05:44.067 --> 00:05:46.367 theater, everyone playing their, their usual ordinary roles. 130 00:05:46.367 --> 00:05:49.167 She got out and she threw herself against the car and, I 131 00:05:49.167 --> 00:05:51.200 think, shocked herself and shocked the, the queens that 132 00:05:51.200 --> 00:05:53.334 were outside because the car started to rock, and at that 133 00:05:53.334 --> 00:05:56.300 point, it was a flash point. 134 00:05:56.300 --> 00:05:59.167 And all of the anger, all of that irrational anger that 135 00:05:59.167 --> 00:06:01.801 people had inside of them, that they were not in touch with 136 00:06:01.801 --> 00:06:04.267 because of oppression, came to the forefront. 137 00:06:04.267 --> 00:06:07.267 And it was at that moment-- 138 00:06:07.267 --> 00:06:08.467 I don't share that view, I think-- 139 00:06:08.467 --> 00:06:10.300 I'm getting to it-- 140 00:06:10.300 --> 00:06:12.100 Some of us-- 141 00:06:12.100 --> 00:06:13.901 But let me just go to it, but, but what you are 142 00:06:13.901 --> 00:06:15.701 saying it was fundam-- what the fundamental change about the way 143 00:06:15.701 --> 00:06:17.501 gays and lesbians looked at 144 00:06:17.501 --> 00:06:18.868 themselves was that they all of a sudden saw themselves-- 145 00:06:18.868 --> 00:06:19.901 They found-- 146 00:06:19.901 --> 00:06:20.667 --as fighting back. 147 00:06:20.667 --> 00:06:21.267 As having some-- as having some power. 148 00:06:21.267 --> 00:06:22.267 Okay. 149 00:06:22.267 --> 00:06:23.267 Some ability not to be de-- dictated to. 150 00:06:23.267 --> 00:06:25.801 Martin Duberman. 151 00:06:25.801 --> 00:06:28.367 Yeah. 152 00:06:28.367 --> 00:06:30.968 Stonewall is his book. What is, what do you 153 00:06:30.968 --> 00:06:32.400 disagree about that reportage? 154 00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:35.434 There are only two witnesses who think that 155 00:06:35.434 --> 00:06:39.501 it was in fact a cross-dressed lesbian who got into the initial 156 00:06:39.501 --> 00:06:40.534 scuffle with a policeman. 157 00:06:40.534 --> 00:06:42.534 Jim is one of the two. 158 00:06:42.534 --> 00:06:46.601 Jim has strong opinions about how and why the riot started and 159 00:06:46.601 --> 00:06:49.634 also about what kind of a bar it was. 160 00:06:49.634 --> 00:06:52.701 Stonewall was, in fact, my bar of choice. 161 00:06:52.701 --> 00:06:55.400 I was there two or three nights a week, dancing. 162 00:06:55.400 --> 00:06:59.300 I'm not-- I wasn't then, you know, a street hustler, a drag 163 00:06:59.300 --> 00:07:01.767 queen, a drug pusher. 164 00:07:01.767 --> 00:07:04.567 You know, I had tendencies in all directions, of course. 165 00:07:04.567 --> 00:07:07.167 But there were plenty of middle-class white men like me 166 00:07:07.167 --> 00:07:09.667 in that bar. 167 00:07:09.667 --> 00:07:12.033 A lot of us viewed it as a very interesting place, a kind of 168 00:07:12.033 --> 00:07:15.033 non-vanilla mix of people. 169 00:07:15.033 --> 00:07:18.400 It was a place where you could dance. 170 00:07:18.400 --> 00:07:22.234 All the bars were Mafia-controlled. 171 00:07:22.234 --> 00:07:25.400 All of them were to some large extent sleazy, but Stonewall, if 172 00:07:25.400 --> 00:07:28.501 anything, stood out for many people in those years as being 173 00:07:28.501 --> 00:07:32.400 the safest of the bars -- still, not a pretty place, but better 174 00:07:32.400 --> 00:07:35.701 than the run of the mill. 175 00:07:35.701 --> 00:07:39.067 So in essence, your difference is, one, the 176 00:07:39.067 --> 00:07:42.367 nature of Stonewall, and two, what started the riot. 177 00:07:42.367 --> 00:07:45.334 Yeah. 178 00:07:45.334 --> 00:07:48.634 See, a lot of this depends -- I mean, the reason eyewitness 179 00:07:48.634 --> 00:07:51.834 accounts differ in this case as in all cases is that people see 180 00:07:51.834 --> 00:07:55.167 from a different vantage point in the crowd. 181 00:07:55.167 --> 00:07:58.133 I, I don't doubt Jim's account, I don't doubt his veracity, but 182 00:07:58.133 --> 00:08:00.634 there were others who were differently positioned who were 183 00:08:00.634 --> 00:08:03.000 seeing different things happen simultaneously. 184 00:08:03.000 --> 00:08:05.033 And what's the significance of this beyond 185 00:08:05.033 --> 00:08:07.133 historical accuracy? 186 00:08:07.133 --> 00:08:09.534 Well, the-- part-- part of it is simple 187 00:08:09.534 --> 00:08:12.067 matter of credit. 188 00:08:12.067 --> 00:08:15.000 I mean, a lot of people, now that Stonewall has become an 189 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:17.868 international symbol, a lot of people want to either take or 190 00:08:17.868 --> 00:08:20.501 assign the credit to a particular constituent-- 191 00:08:20.501 --> 00:08:22.701 constituency, which represents their own lifestyle or views. 192 00:08:22.701 --> 00:08:24.934 What's the significance of it for you? 193 00:08:24.934 --> 00:08:27.300 Of the riots themselves? 194 00:08:27.300 --> 00:08:30.200 Yes. 195 00:08:30.200 --> 00:08:33.234 What-- what the riots demons-- There had 196 00:08:33.234 --> 00:08:36.567 earlier been skirmishes at other bars in California. 197 00:08:36.567 --> 00:08:38.834 What these riots demonstrated was that, first of all in 198 00:08:38.834 --> 00:08:41.267 numbers -- some of the estimates go as high as 2,000. 199 00:08:41.267 --> 00:08:44.100 In numbers, this was the largest resistance to the police that 200 00:08:44.100 --> 00:08:46.467 had yet happened, and also, it was the most sustained. 201 00:08:46.467 --> 00:08:48.200 It went on for a period of-- 202 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:49.934 Five days. 203 00:08:49.934 --> 00:08:51.701 --five days. 204 00:08:51.701 --> 00:08:53.434 Yeah. Now, did-- so, did the significance of 205 00:08:53.434 --> 00:08:55.167 it-- was it 206 00:08:55.167 --> 00:08:57.133 immediate, or did it take time as the word spread and it got 207 00:08:57.133 --> 00:08:58.901 attention and, and more attention brought more attention 208 00:08:58.901 --> 00:09:01.200 brought more attention? 209 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.200 Again, it varies with individuals. 210 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:04.400 Right. 211 00:09:04.400 --> 00:09:06.434 I mean, a lot of people dismissed it as, you 212 00:09:06.434 --> 00:09:08.467 know, just another bar raid. 213 00:09:08.467 --> 00:09:11.501 Others immediately saw the significance and, in fact, 214 00:09:11.501 --> 00:09:15.567 within days of the riots, the, the Gay Liberation Front was 215 00:09:15.567 --> 00:09:18.601 formed and Jim, indeed, was one of the leaders of that. 216 00:09:18.601 --> 00:09:19.601 Yeah, and, and-- 217 00:09:19.601 --> 00:09:21.634 And the Gay Liberation Front was quite 218 00:09:21.634 --> 00:09:23.667 different from the homophile 219 00:09:23.667 --> 00:09:26.734 movement, as it's called, that preceded the Stonewall riots. 220 00:09:26.734 --> 00:09:30.767 What about-- you obviously were, were not there, 221 00:09:30.767 --> 00:09:34.834 but what about the significance of two-- of, of lesbians, and, 222 00:09:34.834 --> 00:09:37.868 B, people of color at this event? 223 00:09:37.868 --> 00:09:39.901 Well, when I found out about Stonewall, which 224 00:09:39.901 --> 00:09:42.934 was in the mid-'70s when I came out-- so I came out about five 225 00:09:42.934 --> 00:09:47.000 years after the Stonewall rebellion. 226 00:09:47.000 --> 00:09:50.033 When I found out about it, I have always thought of it as 227 00:09:50.033 --> 00:09:52.567 being very much like Rosa Parks' refusing to move to the 228 00:09:52.567 --> 00:09:54.634 back of the bus during the Mont-- or, which initiated the 229 00:09:54.634 --> 00:09:57.167 Montgomery bus boycotts in the 1950s. 230 00:09:57.167 --> 00:09:59.767 It was like a single mythic moment that catalyzed a movement 231 00:09:59.767 --> 00:10:02.100 that was bound to happen anyway. 232 00:10:02.100 --> 00:10:04.567 Right. 233 00:10:04.567 --> 00:10:07.434 So that's how I saw it, and that's what I think 234 00:10:07.434 --> 00:10:10.200 it has come to mean to us. 235 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:11.534 So, the movement was going to happen, and this 236 00:10:11.534 --> 00:10:12.767 was simply-- 237 00:10:12.767 --> 00:10:13.968 Yes, it was-- 238 00:10:13.968 --> 00:10:15.100 Stonewall was something-- 239 00:10:15.100 --> 00:10:16.434 --absolutely going to happen. 240 00:10:16.434 --> 00:10:17.434 This was the spark that ignited it. 241 00:10:17.434 --> 00:10:19.200 It was absolutely going to happen. 242 00:10:19.200 --> 00:10:21.033 It was a historic accident in many ways. 243 00:10:21.033 --> 00:10:22.667 You have to place it at the end of the '60s. 244 00:10:22.667 --> 00:10:24.300 That's right. 245 00:10:24.300 --> 00:10:25.934 Yeah. 246 00:10:25.934 --> 00:10:27.534 You have a, a decade where every minority and 247 00:10:27.534 --> 00:10:29.167 social group had had its moment in the streets, figuratively. 248 00:10:29.167 --> 00:10:31.067 And lesbians and gays, like myself, had served in a lot of 249 00:10:31.067 --> 00:10:32.968 those movements as workers, particularly, 250 00:10:32.968 --> 00:10:34.634 the anti-war movement. 251 00:10:34.634 --> 00:10:39.701 You had, in 1968, the increasing activity among young people 252 00:10:39.701 --> 00:10:42.767 against the war in Vietnam, in 1968, 1969. 253 00:10:42.767 --> 00:10:45.801 You had the emergence of women's liberation movement. 254 00:10:45.801 --> 00:10:47.834 You had the civil rights movement in the early part of 255 00:10:47.834 --> 00:10:48.834 the '60s. 256 00:10:48.834 --> 00:10:51.868 It was a, it was a, a particular time in American history where 257 00:10:51.868 --> 00:10:55.934 people were coming to terms with their own oppression. 258 00:10:55.934 --> 00:10:58.968 I know for myself as someone that had worked in progressive 259 00:10:58.968 --> 00:11:04.033 movements and on the left, I had never thought, as, as a gay man 260 00:11:04.033 --> 00:11:06.067 that that was that significant. 261 00:11:06.067 --> 00:11:10.133 I was not closeted, but I just never put my 262 00:11:10.133 --> 00:11:12.167 own oppression first. 263 00:11:12.167 --> 00:11:16.234 That night, when I happened by accident, as-- to be at the 264 00:11:16.234 --> 00:11:19.267 Stonewall, in front of it -- I was coming home from work, quite 265 00:11:19.267 --> 00:11:22.300 literally when, when I came upon the very beginning of this. 266 00:11:22.300 --> 00:11:25.334 It was by accident that I was there, and I will never forget 267 00:11:25.334 --> 00:11:27.367 what it did for me. 268 00:11:27.367 --> 00:11:29.400 About two hours into the evening, I went to the-- a 269 00:11:29.400 --> 00:11:32.434 corner phone booth and called every progressive organization 270 00:11:32.434 --> 00:11:34.467 that I ever worked with and said, ''Come 271 00:11:34.467 --> 00:11:36.501 down to the Village. 272 00:11:36.501 --> 00:11:39.567 Gay people are rioting.'' Now at that time, if anyone had put 273 00:11:39.567 --> 00:11:41.968 a call in and said, ''Two people are having an argument with a 274 00:11:41.968 --> 00:11:44.267 policeman on 125th Street and Fifth Avenue, you would have had 275 00:11:44.267 --> 00:11:46.300 radicals there to support the victims, the people of this 276 00:11:46.300 --> 00:11:48.334 police harassment. 277 00:11:48.334 --> 00:11:51.033 Nobody showed up. Nobody. 278 00:11:51.033 --> 00:11:53.801 Not one of the political groups were there. 279 00:11:53.801 --> 00:11:56.601 Because there was no gay movement consciousness. 280 00:11:56.601 --> 00:11:58.334 No, because they were hom-- 281 00:11:58.334 --> 00:11:59.634 No, because of homophobia. 282 00:11:59.634 --> 00:12:00.834 And because of homophobia. 283 00:12:00.834 --> 00:12:02.534 Homophobia. 284 00:12:02.534 --> 00:12:04.234 Homophobia, right. 285 00:12:04.234 --> 00:12:05.934 Also-- 286 00:12:05.934 --> 00:12:07.467 Because of homophobia. I just wanted to jump 287 00:12:07.467 --> 00:12:08.534 in, too, because the thing is even though-- 288 00:12:08.534 --> 00:12:10.033 On the part of all the other movements, even 289 00:12:10.033 --> 00:12:11.567 though they were all 290 00:12:11.567 --> 00:12:13.400 self-described liberation movements? 291 00:12:13.400 --> 00:12:15.400 Yes. 292 00:12:15.400 --> 00:12:17.167 Even though I wasn't at Stonewall, I graduated 293 00:12:17.167 --> 00:12:18.267 from college the month that Stonewall happened, and I feel 294 00:12:18.267 --> 00:12:19.434 like-- I mean, just like Jim. 295 00:12:19.434 --> 00:12:20.834 I can agree with him about that the tenor of the times. 296 00:12:20.834 --> 00:12:22.334 I was involved in the anti-war movement, the anti-Vietnam war 297 00:12:22.334 --> 00:12:23.501 movement, which is quite unusual for a black woman because the 298 00:12:23.501 --> 00:12:25.334 war was seen as a white issue although, as we found out, most 299 00:12:25.334 --> 00:12:27.000 of the troops who died there were men of color, working class 300 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:28.734 and poor men of color. 301 00:12:28.734 --> 00:12:30.133 Yeah. 302 00:12:30.133 --> 00:12:32.167 I was involved in black student organizing and 303 00:12:32.167 --> 00:12:36.234 in the civil rights movement before that, and I began-- I 304 00:12:36.234 --> 00:12:39.267 really came into the gay and lesbian liberation movement 305 00:12:39.267 --> 00:12:42.300 through the women's movement, which is true for many women of 306 00:12:42.300 --> 00:12:44.334 my generation. 307 00:12:44.334 --> 00:12:47.367 Lesbian feminists were leaders of the early women's liberation 308 00:12:47.367 --> 00:12:49.501 movement although we often don't get credit for that. 309 00:12:49.501 --> 00:12:50.434 Yeah. 310 00:12:50.434 --> 00:12:53.467 I think a lot of people who were around then or 311 00:12:53.467 --> 00:12:55.501 who have studied the history have heard of the Lavender 312 00:12:55.501 --> 00:12:57.501 Menace, and that was when Betty Friedan said that-- 313 00:12:57.501 --> 00:12:58.534 Yeah. 314 00:12:58.534 --> 00:13:00.567 --you know, that lesbians in the movement were 315 00:13:00.567 --> 00:13:03.601 going to really-- that is, in the women's movement were really 316 00:13:03.601 --> 00:13:06.634 going to undermine the gains and the goals that people were 317 00:13:06.634 --> 00:13:07.634 trying to make. 318 00:13:07.634 --> 00:13:10.667 But I guess, I just want to reiterate that consciousness 319 00:13:10.667 --> 00:13:13.734 that people of-- we are of a generation even though I wasn't 320 00:13:13.734 --> 00:13:17.400 at Stonewall, and the thing is as I said and as Jim has said 321 00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:20.033 and as Marty is saying, it was inevitable that lesbian and gay 322 00:13:20.033 --> 00:13:22.501 people were going to rise up-- 323 00:13:22.501 --> 00:13:24.534 It's a certain set of messages, I think, that 324 00:13:24.534 --> 00:13:26.534 were coming to all of us, 325 00:13:26.534 --> 00:13:28.567 percolating in a semiconscious way within us. 326 00:13:28.567 --> 00:13:32.634 I mean, Jim has itemized most of the movements, but in fact, the 327 00:13:32.634 --> 00:13:34.667 particular messages were of great importance 328 00:13:34.667 --> 00:13:35.667 to gays and lesbians. 329 00:13:35.667 --> 00:13:38.000 For example, from the black struggle -- which is, you know, 330 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.000 the grandparent of all the struggles -- from the black 331 00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:42.234 struggle, we were hearing, ''It's fine to be different. 332 00:13:42.234 --> 00:13:44.434 Black is beautiful. 333 00:13:44.434 --> 00:13:46.567 You don't have to be a, you know, carbon copy, middle-class 334 00:13:46.567 --> 00:13:48.667 white in order to be a viable human being.'' From the anti-war 335 00:13:48.667 --> 00:13:50.734 movement was coming the message, ''Don't trust the experts. 336 00:13:50.734 --> 00:13:52.801 The experts got us into Vietnam.'' For gay people, that 337 00:13:52.801 --> 00:13:54.868 was a message of enormous importance because we had 338 00:13:54.868 --> 00:13:56.901 allowed -- many of us, including myself -- had allowed the 339 00:13:56.901 --> 00:13:58.901 experts, and especially the psychiatric experts, 340 00:13:58.901 --> 00:14:00.934 to rule our lives. 341 00:14:00.934 --> 00:14:02.968 We had internalized their view that we were sick. 342 00:14:02.968 --> 00:14:04.968 So all these messages, along with a lot of rage, were 343 00:14:04.968 --> 00:14:06.968 percolating inside of us, and that's why we all three seem to 344 00:14:06.968 --> 00:14:09.467 think that it was inevitable. 345 00:14:09.467 --> 00:14:11.868 But Stonewall didn't change-- Did Stonewall 346 00:14:11.868 --> 00:14:14.133 change all of that-- 347 00:14:14.133 --> 00:14:16.367 No. 348 00:14:16.367 --> 00:14:19.200 --or did Stonewall simply say-- 349 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.000 Change all of what? 350 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.834 It's what happ-- 351 00:14:24.834 --> 00:14:27.634 The, the who-- all of those notions, all of 352 00:14:27.634 --> 00:14:29.467 those messages that were there. Did Stonewall-- 353 00:14:29.467 --> 00:14:30.601 No. 354 00:14:30.601 --> 00:14:31.701 --didn't change all those messages. 355 00:14:31.701 --> 00:14:32.767 --and the-- 356 00:14:32.767 --> 00:14:34.133 It activated, it activated the messages. 357 00:14:34.133 --> 00:14:35.501 But to this day, I mean-- 358 00:14:35.501 --> 00:14:36.834 Made them manifest. 359 00:14:36.834 --> 00:14:38.200 But to this day, I mean, we're 25 years into a 360 00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:39.567 struggle. I mean, yes, because it's a 25th anniversary doesn't 361 00:14:39.567 --> 00:14:40.934 mean that 362 00:14:40.934 --> 00:14:41.300 things are finished. 363 00:14:41.300 --> 00:14:45.334 Many of the issues that people were struggling with around that 364 00:14:45.334 --> 00:14:47.367 time and since that time we still have. 365 00:14:47.367 --> 00:14:50.434 We still have gay teenagers committing suicide. 366 00:14:50.434 --> 00:14:52.434 We still have people who are afraid to come 367 00:14:52.434 --> 00:14:54.000 out on their jobs. 368 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:54.467 Yeah. 369 00:14:54.467 --> 00:14:56.501 It's not like we're finished, but what we have 370 00:14:56.501 --> 00:14:59.534 that we didn't have pre- that date is a viable lesbian and gay 371 00:14:59.534 --> 00:15:00.734 rights movement. 372 00:15:00.734 --> 00:15:01.667 I would like it to be a liberation movement, actually. 373 00:15:01.667 --> 00:15:02.667 Yes. 374 00:15:02.667 --> 00:15:03.701 Well, it, it was a liberation 375 00:15:03.701 --> 00:15:05.734 movement in the beginning. 376 00:15:05.734 --> 00:15:08.767 And I think it's really significant-- the significance 377 00:15:08.767 --> 00:15:09.801 of Stonewall is what happened after that flashpoint. 378 00:15:09.801 --> 00:15:10.934 Which was? 379 00:15:10.934 --> 00:15:12.434 Which was the organizing of the Gay Liberation 380 00:15:12.434 --> 00:15:13.434 Front and its counterpart around the country. 381 00:15:13.434 --> 00:15:14.434 Within five-- 382 00:15:14.434 --> 00:15:15.434 How about around the world? 383 00:15:15.434 --> 00:15:16.434 Did this have implications-- 384 00:15:16.434 --> 00:15:17.434 Well, first-- well-- 385 00:15:17.434 --> 00:15:18.067 --beyond? 386 00:15:18.067 --> 00:15:18.901 Later. Later. 387 00:15:18.901 --> 00:15:20.934 First, well first we'll start in this country. 388 00:15:20.934 --> 00:15:23.968 Within five months, there were over 70 chapters of the Gay 389 00:15:23.968 --> 00:15:27.000 Liberation Front that had formed because it had caught the 390 00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:29.033 imagination, particularly of young people. 391 00:15:29.033 --> 00:15:31.067 Lesbian and gay people were coming out 392 00:15:31.067 --> 00:15:32.067 all over this country. 393 00:15:32.067 --> 00:15:35.100 It does not mean that there wasn't a movement before, but 394 00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:38.167 the character of the gay liberation movement was consi-- 395 00:15:38.167 --> 00:15:39.367 was different. 396 00:15:39.367 --> 00:15:43.234 It reflected the values of the '60s as opposed to the values of 397 00:15:43.234 --> 00:15:47.300 the 7-- of the '50s, where you had homophoba-- homophile 398 00:15:47.300 --> 00:15:50.334 organizations, correctly by the way, because of what had 399 00:15:50.334 --> 00:15:53.367 happened with McCarthy and the kind of witch hunts that 400 00:15:53.367 --> 00:15:55.400 McCarthy had done against homosexuals and against 401 00:15:55.400 --> 00:15:58.434 communists, had tried to present a very 402 00:15:58.434 --> 00:15:59.534 we-are-just-like-you kind 403 00:15:59.534 --> 00:16:00.767 of image. 404 00:16:00.767 --> 00:16:03.501 Well, I came from the generation that carried signs that said, 405 00:16:03.501 --> 00:16:05.534 ''We are your worst nightmare.'' And the fact that we were gay 406 00:16:05.534 --> 00:16:06.868 and lesbian -- 407 00:16:06.868 --> 00:16:07.968 Yeah. 408 00:16:07.968 --> 00:16:09.601 We could have been hippies, we could have been 409 00:16:09.601 --> 00:16:10.601 what women's liberation is. 410 00:16:10.601 --> 00:16:12.634 When, when Barbara talked about the Lavender Menace, it was the 411 00:16:12.634 --> 00:16:15.667 very women in, in the Gay Liberation Front in New York 412 00:16:15.667 --> 00:16:18.133 City that became the Lavender Menace and went to women's 413 00:16:18.133 --> 00:16:20.868 liberation and unfurled out a banner and said, ''We are the 414 00:16:20.868 --> 00:16:23.634 Lavender Menace.'' What we gained from the women's movement 415 00:16:23.634 --> 00:16:26.467 fundamentally shaped the character of the 416 00:16:26.467 --> 00:16:29.100 gay liberation movement. 417 00:16:29.100 --> 00:16:31.834 That was -- 418 00:16:31.834 --> 00:16:34.601 All right. Let, let-- 419 00:16:34.601 --> 00:16:37.467 --consciousness-raising. I want to put this in. 420 00:16:37.467 --> 00:16:40.334 It was consciousness-rais-- We had to examine what does it mean 421 00:16:40.334 --> 00:16:43.267 to be gay; who are we; and what does it mean to be oppressed, 422 00:16:43.267 --> 00:16:46.200 and what has that oppression done to us? 423 00:16:46.200 --> 00:16:48.133 It wasn't just ''Gay is okay,'' it was ''Who are we, and how do 424 00:16:48.133 --> 00:16:49.868 we make a better society for everyone?'' 425 00:16:49.868 --> 00:16:51.634 not just gays and lesbians, but for everyone. 426 00:16:51.634 --> 00:16:53.234 And that's being contested now. 427 00:16:53.234 --> 00:16:54.934 Yeah. 428 00:16:54.934 --> 00:16:56.701 What do you think-- 429 00:16:56.701 --> 00:16:58.534 That issue is being contested. 430 00:16:58.534 --> 00:17:00.400 --is the most significant progress that has 431 00:17:00.400 --> 00:17:02.033 been made in the 25 years since Stonewall? 432 00:17:02.033 --> 00:17:03.534 Well, as Barbara said, I mean, fir-- 433 00:17:03.534 --> 00:17:05.167 first we, we have to divide up where the 434 00:17:05.167 --> 00:17:06.868 progress has been made. 435 00:17:06.868 --> 00:17:08.667 All right. 436 00:17:08.667 --> 00:17:09.767 I mean, once you leave the, the, the 437 00:17:09.767 --> 00:17:11.601 liberated urban zones, the big cities, small-town life in 438 00:17:11.601 --> 00:17:13.501 America-- a number of reporters have gone out and looked, and 439 00:17:13.501 --> 00:17:14.567 it, it resembles, all too sadly still, the way 440 00:17:14.567 --> 00:17:16.133 life was in the 1950s. 441 00:17:16.133 --> 00:17:19.167 Change is beginning slowly, but a lot of people are still 442 00:17:19.167 --> 00:17:21.200 marrying heterosexually in or-- in order to 443 00:17:21.200 --> 00:17:23.234 provide cover for themselves. 444 00:17:23.234 --> 00:17:26.267 They're living in a state of semi-terror most of the time. 445 00:17:26.267 --> 00:17:28.300 Nonetheless, I think the amount of progress has, 446 00:17:28.300 --> 00:17:30.300 in fact, been huge. 447 00:17:30.300 --> 00:17:33.367 I mean, when those early ''homophilers'', as we call 448 00:17:33.367 --> 00:17:37.400 them, the pre-Stonewall movement, when they stood up -- 449 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:41.467 and it always angers me that their efforts are minimized -- 450 00:17:41.467 --> 00:17:43.501 they stood up without a supportive movement, you know, a 451 00:17:43.501 --> 00:17:47.567 handful of people in 1965 were picketing the White House. 452 00:17:47.567 --> 00:17:49.601 I mean, they could have been beaten to death, literally, on 453 00:17:49.601 --> 00:17:50.601 the spot. 454 00:17:50.601 --> 00:17:52.167 They were courageous people 455 00:17:52.167 --> 00:17:53.734 Yeah. 456 00:17:53.734 --> 00:17:55.300 Very courageous people. 457 00:17:55.300 --> 00:17:56.834 Yes. 458 00:17:56.834 --> 00:17:58.400 What ought to be the top of the agenda for the 459 00:17:58.400 --> 00:17:58.701 gay and lesbian movement today? 460 00:17:58.701 --> 00:18:02.767 Our freedom, as opposed to just a few rights, a 461 00:18:02.767 --> 00:18:04.701 few crumbs-- 462 00:18:04.701 --> 00:18:06.501 Yeah. 463 00:18:06.501 --> 00:18:08.267 --you know. 464 00:18:08.267 --> 00:18:10.033 But freedom defined in terms of across the 465 00:18:10.033 --> 00:18:10.701 board, or do you have within the umbrella of 466 00:18:10.701 --> 00:18:10.868 freedom some specific-- 467 00:18:10.868 --> 00:18:11.901 Well, to me-- 468 00:18:11.901 --> 00:18:12.968 --whether it would be gay marriages or gays in 469 00:18:12.968 --> 00:18:14.100 the military-- 470 00:18:14.100 --> 00:18:15.367 No, no. No, no, no, no, no, no-- 471 00:18:15.367 --> 00:18:16.901 --or any particular-- 472 00:18:16.901 --> 00:18:18.334 Let's not even go there, please. 473 00:18:18.334 --> 00:18:19.634 All right. 474 00:18:19.634 --> 00:18:21.300 A different agenda from ours. 475 00:18:21.300 --> 00:18:23.000 Right. 476 00:18:23.000 --> 00:18:24.133 As an African-American-- 477 00:18:24.133 --> 00:18:25.300 Well, that's a different agenda from yours, what 478 00:18:25.300 --> 00:18:26.467 do you mean by that, just before-- 479 00:18:26.467 --> 00:18:27.601 Well, some of us, including myself, think the 480 00:18:27.601 --> 00:18:28.767 campaign for military justice was to some large measure, 481 00:18:28.767 --> 00:18:29.901 misguided. It narrowed our agenda-- 482 00:18:29.901 --> 00:18:31.400 And counterproductive, or-- 483 00:18:31.400 --> 00:18:32.901 And counterproductive, yeah. 484 00:18:32.901 --> 00:18:34.400 Okay. 485 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:35.868 As an African-American, my definition of 486 00:18:35.868 --> 00:18:37.367 freedom was shaped very early. 487 00:18:37.367 --> 00:18:38.968 It had nothing to do with lesbian or gay liberation or the 488 00:18:38.968 --> 00:18:40.667 women's movement. 489 00:18:40.667 --> 00:18:42.200 It had everything to be 490 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:43.834 with being an African-American. 491 00:18:43.834 --> 00:18:45.567 It had to do with race. 492 00:18:45.567 --> 00:18:47.400 Right. 493 00:18:47.400 --> 00:18:49.234 And it had to do with a society that 494 00:18:49.234 --> 00:18:51.133 fundamentally oppressed people because of color. 495 00:18:51.133 --> 00:18:52.801 Has that changed? 496 00:18:52.801 --> 00:18:53.534 As far as our status as African-Americans? 497 00:18:53.534 --> 00:18:54.100 No, as far as your own mindset 498 00:18:54.100 --> 00:18:54.534 Oh, no. 499 00:18:54.534 --> 00:18:54.834 I see things as, pretty much as-- 500 00:18:54.834 --> 00:18:55.334 First as race. 501 00:18:55.334 --> 00:18:55.968 --they were. 502 00:18:55.968 --> 00:18:56.400 Yeah. 503 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:57.000 Well, the thing is, I'm more likely to be 504 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:57.701 discriminated because of race because that's 505 00:18:57.701 --> 00:18:58.033 what people see first. 506 00:18:58.033 --> 00:19:00.033 They're not thinking, ''Here's this female. 507 00:19:00.033 --> 00:19:03.100 Here's this lesbian.''Often, they might not know. 508 00:19:03.100 --> 00:19:05.133 Sometimes I get called sir; sometimes I get called ma'am. 509 00:19:05.133 --> 00:19:07.167 It doesn't really make any difference to me. 510 00:19:07.167 --> 00:19:09.167 But the thing is that what they see is a black dissenting. 511 00:19:09.167 --> 00:19:13.067 The point I want to make now, though, is not which of the 512 00:19:13.067 --> 00:19:16.934 oppressions is most severe, but to talk about what I mean by 513 00:19:16.934 --> 00:19:20.734 freedom; and by freedom what I mean -- and I think what Marty 514 00:19:20.734 --> 00:19:24.100 means and probably what Jim means, too, from what I read-- 515 00:19:24.100 --> 00:19:27.133 read you know in the book about your politics -- what we mean is 516 00:19:27.133 --> 00:19:29.133 freedom across the board for everyone who is 517 00:19:29.133 --> 00:19:31.133 living lives of hell. 518 00:19:31.133 --> 00:19:33.133 That's what we mean. 519 00:19:33.133 --> 00:19:35.133 So the thing is that for me, a les-- a viable lesbian and gay 520 00:19:35.133 --> 00:19:37.200 liberation movement wants that mother who is out on the street 521 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:40.167 as we speak with no place to live and separated from her 522 00:19:40.167 --> 00:19:43.200 children because of her poverty and her homelessness, I know 523 00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:44.000 that I can't be free unless that person has the opportunity to 524 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:45.334 live a decent life. 525 00:19:45.334 --> 00:19:46.834 Okay. 526 00:19:46.834 --> 00:19:48.767 Well said. 527 00:19:48.767 --> 00:19:50.467 Right. 528 00:19:50.467 --> 00:19:52.267 And it's the same thing that happened with 529 00:19:52.267 --> 00:19:53.868 GLF and then the groups that splintered from it: 530 00:19:53.868 --> 00:19:54.868 What's DLF? 531 00:19:54.868 --> 00:19:55.901 GLF. 532 00:19:55.901 --> 00:19:56.901 The Gay Liberation Front. 533 00:19:56.901 --> 00:19:58.234 Oh, oh, oh. 534 00:19:58.234 --> 00:19:59.667 Yeah, right. 535 00:19:59.667 --> 00:20:01.133 I also think-- I mean, if I may 536 00:20:01.133 --> 00:20:02.567 just put in one 537 00:20:02.567 --> 00:20:03.000 word here, I also think what's essential is that the gay and 538 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:06.033 lesbian movement is giving everyone the right to be as 539 00:20:06.033 --> 00:20:07.033 different as in fact they are. 540 00:20:07.033 --> 00:20:10.067 I don't think it's only gays and lesbians who are different. 541 00:20:10.067 --> 00:20:14.133 I mean, we are all, in our contradictory impulses and our 542 00:20:14.133 --> 00:20:17.167 fantastical heads, we are all very different, one from the 543 00:20:17.167 --> 00:20:21.234 other, but in this conformist society, we don't usually get 544 00:20:21.234 --> 00:20:24.267 the permission, and gays and lesbians are opening up this 545 00:20:24.267 --> 00:20:28.334 whole area of celebrating diversity, and that's why what 546 00:20:28.334 --> 00:20:31.367 we have to contribute to the mainstream is of such 547 00:20:31.367 --> 00:20:33.400 fundamental significance. 548 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:34.434 And that's why kids in college can call 549 00:20:34.434 --> 00:20:37.467 themselves queer without ever having slept with a person of 550 00:20:37.467 --> 00:20:38.467 their own gender. 551 00:20:38.467 --> 00:20:39.501 Absolutely. 552 00:20:39.501 --> 00:20:40.501 They say, ''I'm not, you know, a, a lesbian. 553 00:20:40.501 --> 00:20:43.000 I'm not gay; I'm queer because I see things differently.'' 554 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:44.000 Yeah. 555 00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:45.033 ''I feel things differently.'' 556 00:20:45.033 --> 00:20:46.067 Okay. 557 00:20:46.067 --> 00:20:47.067 Last word, what do you think, Jim, that might be different-- 558 00:20:47.067 --> 00:20:48.133 Well, first what I think we have to learn-- 559 00:20:48.133 --> 00:20:50.133 --from what has been expressed with respect to-- 560 00:20:50.133 --> 00:20:51.267 --we, we have to learn-- 561 00:20:51.267 --> 00:20:52.501 --where the priorities ought to be and what's 562 00:20:52.501 --> 00:20:53.734 the most important goal. 563 00:20:53.734 --> 00:20:54.167 We have to learn from our mistakes. I think it's, 564 00:20:54.167 --> 00:20:57.200 it's real important that we-- that political people always go 565 00:20:57.200 --> 00:20:59.234 back and look at what we've done, 566 00:20:59.234 --> 00:21:01.267 what we've accomplished and how-- and 567 00:21:01.267 --> 00:21:02.267 what we haven't accomplished. 568 00:21:02.267 --> 00:21:05.300 And as a, as a radical and I self-identify as a radical and 569 00:21:05.300 --> 00:21:09.367 as a person where a multi-issued gay liberation movement is 570 00:21:09.367 --> 00:21:12.400 important to me, meaning that it's just not about gay rights. 571 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:13.634 I think we also need to see how the right wing in this country-- 572 00:21:13.634 --> 00:21:15.434 Thank you. 573 00:21:15.434 --> 00:21:17.033 Thank you very much. 574 00:21:17.033 --> 00:21:18.701 --and the Christian white wing, has set 575 00:21:18.701 --> 00:21:20.234 the agenda, and we're all reacting to it. 576 00:21:20.234 --> 00:21:20.634 Right. 577 00:21:20.634 --> 00:21:21.167 Particularly targeting the black community 578 00:21:21.167 --> 00:21:21.767 these days. 579 00:21:21.767 --> 00:21:22.834 Yeah. 580 00:21:22.834 --> 00:21:24.801 And I would like to say that I do not believe that gay and 581 00:21:24.801 --> 00:21:26.834 lesbian people are just like heterosexual people. 582 00:21:26.834 --> 00:21:28.868 I do not believe that Irish people-- 583 00:21:28.868 --> 00:21:31.367 Right. 584 00:21:31.367 --> 00:21:33.701 --that I grew up with are like Italian people, 585 00:21:33.701 --> 00:21:36.033 for example. 586 00:21:36.033 --> 00:21:38.467 I do not think that African-American people and 587 00:21:38.467 --> 00:21:41.033 Hispanic people are just like me-- 588 00:21:41.033 --> 00:21:43.334 Nor should they be. 589 00:21:43.334 --> 00:21:44.667 Nor should they be. 590 00:21:44.667 --> 00:21:45.968 But this is a, this is a-- we have cultural 591 00:21:45.968 --> 00:21:47.300 diversity that crosses class and 592 00:21:47.300 --> 00:21:48.601 internationally crosses cultures 593 00:21:48.601 --> 00:21:50.400 that resonates love. 594 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:52.167 I mean, this is going to sound -- I don't know how my political 595 00:21:52.167 --> 00:21:53.968 friends are going to say-- 596 00:21:53.968 --> 00:21:55.767 Yeah. 597 00:21:55.767 --> 00:21:57.534 --this is a movement about love; it's about the 598 00:21:57.534 --> 00:21:59.334 ability to love a person of the same sex and because that is 599 00:21:59.334 --> 00:22:00.601 anathemized by the right wing and by the, the religious 600 00:22:00.601 --> 00:22:01.467 movements around the world, we have to begin to fight back. 601 00:22:01.467 --> 00:22:04.534 And I would just suggest to any young person-- 602 00:22:04.534 --> 00:22:05.534 Right. 603 00:22:05.534 --> 00:22:07.567 --who's trying to define themself today, ''Don't 604 00:22:07.567 --> 00:22:11.634 let anyone define for you what it means to be gay or lesbian. 605 00:22:11.634 --> 00:22:12.634 Find out for yourself--'' 606 00:22:12.634 --> 00:22:13.634 And get active. 607 00:22:13.634 --> 00:22:14.667 Right. 608 00:22:14.667 --> 00:22:17.467 ''--and, and look at who we are. 609 00:22:17.467 --> 00:22:18.801 All right. 610 00:22:18.801 --> 00:22:20.167 And we are not all white. 611 00:22:20.167 --> 00:22:21.534 You know, we are black-- 612 00:22:21.534 --> 00:22:22.901 We are not all male, either. 613 00:22:22.901 --> 00:22:24.167 That's very important. 614 00:22:24.167 --> 00:22:25.467 Very important. 615 00:22:25.467 --> 00:22:25.767 --we are brown; we are old; we are young; we are 616 00:22:25.767 --> 00:22:26.067 women; we are conservatives, and we are, we are 617 00:22:26.067 --> 00:22:26.267 Democrats; we are Republicans. 618 00:22:26.267 --> 00:22:27.300 We are all very different. 619 00:22:27.300 --> 00:22:32.367 I want a society where I can live with equality, with every 620 00:22:32.367 --> 00:22:33.501 other kind of person. 621 00:22:33.501 --> 00:22:35.467 I do not want one that says I have to act this way or that 622 00:22:35.467 --> 00:22:36.467 way, nor would I-- 623 00:22:36.467 --> 00:22:37.501 Unfortunately-- 624 00:22:37.501 --> 00:22:38.501 --dictate that to someone else. 625 00:22:38.501 --> 00:22:39.534 Unfortunately because I have other guests 626 00:22:39.534 --> 00:22:40.534 speaking to the-- some of the same subjects, I have to go. I 627 00:22:40.534 --> 00:22:41.834 thank you very much. 628 00:22:41.834 --> 00:22:42.667 Thank you. 629 00:22:42.667 --> 00:22:43.467 Pleasure to have you here. 630 00:22:43.467 --> 00:22:44.501 We'll be right back. 631 00:22:44.501 --> 00:22:48.334 Stay with us. 632 00:22:48.334 --> 00:22:58.467 Andrew Sullivan, Tony Kushner, Donna Minkowitz, Bruce Bawer 633 00:22:58.467 --> 00:23:00.501 Joining me now to continue our discussion of 634 00:23:00.501 --> 00:23:03.534 Stonewall and the modern gay movement are Tony and Pulitzer 635 00:23:03.534 --> 00:23:07.601 Award-winner playwright Tony Kushner; Andrew Sullivan, editor 636 00:23:07.601 --> 00:23:10.634 of The New Republic Magazine; Bruce Bawer, author of A Place 637 00:23:10.634 --> 00:23:13.667 at the Table; and Village Voice writer and lesbian activist 638 00:23:13.667 --> 00:23:14.701 Donna Minkowitz. 639 00:23:14.701 --> 00:23:16.701 I am pleased to have each of you here. 640 00:23:16.701 --> 00:23:21.767 There is a, there is strong disagreement at this table, and 641 00:23:21.767 --> 00:23:24.834 I want you to engage that disagreement. 642 00:23:24.834 --> 00:23:31.934 And I begin-- Andrew, since I-- tell me what is the essential 643 00:23:31.934 --> 00:23:36.000 disagreement in terms of where the movement is right now, and 644 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:38.000 what it ought to be emphasizing, not emphasizing, 645 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:39.400 and and what is 646 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:40.367 the conflict within the movement? 647 00:23:40.367 --> 00:23:42.067 Well, I think-- 648 00:23:42.067 --> 00:23:44.501 I don't want to put words into other people's mouths. 649 00:23:44.501 --> 00:23:47.567 What I think the movement about-- is about is about 650 00:23:47.567 --> 00:23:50.601 affirming the equal dignity of human beings who happen to be 651 00:23:50.601 --> 00:23:55.667 born and grow up loving someone of the same sex and finding a 652 00:23:55.667 --> 00:23:59.734 way for our society to recognize that emotional integrity and 653 00:23:59.734 --> 00:24:01.734 that human dignity. 654 00:24:01.734 --> 00:24:03.767 It doesn't have to be about a whole range of other issues 655 00:24:03.767 --> 00:24:07.834 which are a hangover from the New Left of the late '60s and 656 00:24:07.834 --> 00:24:10.868 the accidents of how the gay movement collided with that in 657 00:24:10.868 --> 00:24:14.934 the late '60s; and it's about affirming that we are like 658 00:24:14.934 --> 00:24:16.901 everybody else, that we are human beings, worthy of respect 659 00:24:16.901 --> 00:24:19.701 and love that can have real relationships and real jobs and 660 00:24:19.701 --> 00:24:22.601 be part of our society; that we are assimilated; we grew up in 661 00:24:22.601 --> 00:24:25.434 straight families; we have straight friends; we 662 00:24:25.434 --> 00:24:28.133 are part of America. 663 00:24:28.133 --> 00:24:30.567 Is part of what you are saying, though, then, 664 00:24:30.567 --> 00:24:32.634 that those who emphasize differences, differences in 665 00:24:32.634 --> 00:24:35.200 terms of-- that might come out in things like gay pride parades 666 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:37.601 and other places-- 667 00:24:37.601 --> 00:24:39.901 No, I don't-- that's-- 668 00:24:39.901 --> 00:24:42.801 --that those things are destructive to-- 669 00:24:42.801 --> 00:24:45.734 No. 670 00:24:45.734 --> 00:24:48.634 --achieving the goals of the gay movement? 671 00:24:48.634 --> 00:24:51.534 I-- there-- I think that the key issue here 672 00:24:51.534 --> 00:24:54.467 is distinguishing culture and politics. 673 00:24:54.467 --> 00:24:57.000 I'm in favor of as big a, a flourishing and as wide a 674 00:24:57.000 --> 00:24:59.534 diversity of, of activities and people and lifestyles and 675 00:24:59.534 --> 00:25:02.267 cultures as imaginable. 676 00:25:02.267 --> 00:25:05.067 But when you have to actually address the politics of a 677 00:25:05.067 --> 00:25:08.000 country like America, you have to get serious. 678 00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:10.434 You have to start talking about things that actually can be 679 00:25:10.434 --> 00:25:13.133 negotiated, things that actually can be had in common with other 680 00:25:13.133 --> 00:25:15.834 people, rather than constantly harping on what sets 681 00:25:15.834 --> 00:25:18.200 us, sets us apart. 682 00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:20.200 And harping on what sets us apart is victimizing gay kids 683 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:22.234 cross the country or in regular families that want to leave-- 684 00:25:22.234 --> 00:25:24.234 lead regular lives. 685 00:25:24.234 --> 00:25:27.000 Tony. 686 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:29.801 Well, I mean, I think that there's a 687 00:25:29.801 --> 00:25:31.968 distinction that you're making between culture and politics 688 00:25:31.968 --> 00:25:34.100 that I don't think holds up. 689 00:25:34.100 --> 00:25:36.300 I think that culture is political, and I don't think 690 00:25:36.300 --> 00:25:39.100 that the dividing line that you like to make works because what 691 00:25:39.100 --> 00:25:41.334 you have to do in order to make that division, and what I think 692 00:25:41.334 --> 00:25:43.701 you did in your article last year, is to basically say that 693 00:25:43.701 --> 00:25:46.400 politics is a sort of a small service event, that serves to 694 00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.767 cover up and, and correct limited wrongs, and that somehow 695 00:25:48.767 --> 00:25:51.067 then there's this giant sea of human phenomena called culture 696 00:25:51.067 --> 00:25:53.334 that isn't part of, of political activism, but, I mean, as a, as 697 00:25:53.334 --> 00:25:55.334 a playwright-- 698 00:25:55.334 --> 00:25:57.367 I don't want to see politics-- 699 00:25:57.367 --> 00:25:59.367 --I have to say I completely disagree with that. 700 00:25:59.367 --> 00:26:01.400 I don't want to see 701 00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.434 politics enforcing culture. 702 00:26:03.434 --> 00:26:06.267 That's what the religious right wants. 703 00:26:06.267 --> 00:26:08.634 Well, I don't think-- well, right. 704 00:26:08.634 --> 00:26:11.167 What the religious right wants is to use 705 00:26:11.167 --> 00:26:12.901 politics to enforce a cultural view of the way 706 00:26:12.901 --> 00:26:14.634 people should be. 707 00:26:14.634 --> 00:26:16.367 And what the left wants-- 708 00:26:16.367 --> 00:26:18.100 But they don't want to use politics; what they 709 00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:19.834 want to do is to use government to 710 00:26:19.834 --> 00:26:21.834 enforce religious differences-- 711 00:26:21.834 --> 00:26:23.434 Well, it's the same thing. 712 00:26:23.434 --> 00:26:25.067 What you want-- 713 00:26:25.067 --> 00:26:26.667 No, it's not. 714 00:26:26.667 --> 00:26:28.300 --want to do is use government to en-- 715 00:26:28.300 --> 00:26:29.901 enforce it as well, for a different kind of-- 716 00:26:29.901 --> 00:26:31.634 No, I don't. No. 717 00:26:31.634 --> 00:26:33.434 I want to use government to guarantee individual dignity and 718 00:26:33.434 --> 00:26:35.267 to guarantee hu-- 719 00:26:35.267 --> 00:26:36.901 Well then, we're, we're, we are in agreement. 720 00:26:36.901 --> 00:26:38.634 We are abs-- we are in agreement to 721 00:26:38.634 --> 00:26:40.400 that point, but-- 722 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:42.267 The question is what kind of politics. 723 00:26:42.267 --> 00:26:43.901 I mean, the main disagreement, as I see it, is whether the gay 724 00:26:43.901 --> 00:26:45.334 movement should align itself with other groups that are also 725 00:26:45.334 --> 00:26:46.801 disenfranchized -- with the poor, with women, 726 00:26:46.801 --> 00:26:48.267 with people of color. 727 00:26:48.267 --> 00:26:49.734 You know, Bruce, in his book has said that we 728 00:26:49.734 --> 00:26:51.167 need a place at the 729 00:26:51.167 --> 00:26:53.100 table, but in fact what we need to do is overturn the table. 730 00:26:53.100 --> 00:26:55.033 The table isn't serving lots and lots of other groups. 731 00:26:55.033 --> 00:26:56.501 Everyone is underneath the table scrambling for crumbs. 732 00:26:56.501 --> 00:26:58.000 What we need to do is build a new table, and 733 00:26:58.000 --> 00:26:59.501 I would also argue-- 734 00:26:59.501 --> 00:27:00.968 Well-- stop, stop, stop. Let Bruce jump in 735 00:27:00.968 --> 00:27:02.467 because everybody else has had a chance 736 00:27:02.467 --> 00:27:04.300 to speak, and since we brought in his view, we ought to have 737 00:27:04.300 --> 00:27:06.200 him speak to it. 738 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.100 Thank you. 739 00:27:08.100 --> 00:27:10.033 You mentioned the word ''diversity,'' Charlie, and the 740 00:27:10.033 --> 00:27:12.000 thing that strikes me as one of the ironies in this whole 741 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:13.968 situation is that the gay left talks so much about diversity, 742 00:27:13.968 --> 00:27:15.934 but it, you know, it uses this word ''solidarity'' as-- to-- as 743 00:27:15.934 --> 00:27:17.901 this ideal of what they want, and what they mean is solidarity 744 00:27:17.901 --> 00:27:19.901 according to their own politics. 745 00:27:19.901 --> 00:27:21.868 Gay people are supposed to all agree with the gay left 746 00:27:21.868 --> 00:27:24.634 politics, and the thing is gay people are diverse. 747 00:27:24.634 --> 00:27:26.667 The gay population in this country is as diverse as the 748 00:27:26.667 --> 00:27:28.968 straight population in this country. 749 00:27:28.968 --> 00:27:31.934 The huge majority of gay people do not share the exact political 750 00:27:31.934 --> 00:27:34.634 agendas that Tony Kushner or-- and Donna Minkowitz, or for that 751 00:27:34.634 --> 00:27:37.200 matter, me and Andrew. 752 00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:38.601 I mean, somebody's article used the word 753 00:27:38.601 --> 00:27:40.367 ''capitalism'' as a dirty word-- I mean, Tony and Donna are from 754 00:27:40.367 --> 00:27:42.133 the extreme left in this country. 755 00:27:42.133 --> 00:27:43.901 Well, I think-- 756 00:27:43.901 --> 00:27:45.667 And, and there's no reason why someone, 757 00:27:45.667 --> 00:27:47.434 because they fall in love with 758 00:27:47.434 --> 00:27:49.267 someone of their own sex, should adhere to the view that 759 00:27:49.267 --> 00:27:50.934 capitalism and a free market democracy-- 760 00:27:50.934 --> 00:27:52.634 You know, well, I think that-- 761 00:27:52.634 --> 00:27:54.434 --are, are flawed. 762 00:27:54.434 --> 00:27:56.300 Tony? 763 00:27:56.300 --> 00:27:57.934 I think that you guys set up a number of paper 764 00:27:57.934 --> 00:27:59.667 tigers, and one of them is sort of the politics of the left, as 765 00:27:59.667 --> 00:28:01.200 though there's one politics of the left. 766 00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:02.868 I had only met Donna today. 767 00:28:02.868 --> 00:28:04.601 I like her work very much, but I'm sure that we diverge on 768 00:28:04.601 --> 00:28:06.400 many, many issues. 769 00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.267 The politics of the left is a very complicated thing. 770 00:28:08.267 --> 00:28:09.901 I think that the one thing that the left asks is that people 771 00:28:09.901 --> 00:28:11.634 stop-- don't stop asking questions, and that you keep 772 00:28:11.634 --> 00:28:13.167 exploring what the implications of your own situation are in the 773 00:28:13.167 --> 00:28:14.834 world at large. 774 00:28:14.834 --> 00:28:16.567 And I don't think that the politics that you're espousing 775 00:28:16.567 --> 00:28:18.400 is doing that. 776 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.000 There is no requ-- I mean, how could-- 777 00:28:20.000 --> 00:28:21.701 How does it not-- How does it, how does-- 778 00:28:21.701 --> 00:28:23.501 --somebody who wrote-- 779 00:28:23.501 --> 00:28:25.334 --it stop people asking questions. 780 00:28:25.334 --> 00:28:27.200 I don't think it stops people asking questions. 781 00:28:27.200 --> 00:28:29.100 A liberal-- the liberal society I support-- 782 00:28:29.100 --> 00:28:31.033 It keeps them approaching it from a police 783 00:28:31.033 --> 00:28:32.734 point of view, which is very odd. 784 00:28:32.734 --> 00:28:34.267 --is all about asking questions. 785 00:28:34.267 --> 00:28:35.734 It's questioning the dogmas that you have, as well-- 786 00:28:35.734 --> 00:28:36.200 Right, but I think that you stop asking-- 787 00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:36.667 --the dogmas that I have. 788 00:28:36.667 --> 00:28:37.133 --questions at a very critical point. I think 789 00:28:37.133 --> 00:28:37.267 that you go up to the point where you can see the immediate 790 00:28:37.267 --> 00:28:39.267 gains that could be made by a kind of consolidation 791 00:28:39.267 --> 00:28:44.367 of lesbian and gay politics at this point if we cast ourselves 792 00:28:44.367 --> 00:28:48.400 off from other people who are struggling 793 00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:49.434 for their own liberations. 794 00:28:49.434 --> 00:28:52.467 You think that we are weighing ourselves down by concerning 795 00:28:52.467 --> 00:28:53.434 ourselves with things that are not-- 796 00:28:53.434 --> 00:28:54.801 These struggles-- (crosstalk) 797 00:28:54.801 --> 00:28:56.367 --are very different struggles. 798 00:28:56.367 --> 00:28:57.934 I don't agree with that. 799 00:28:57.934 --> 00:28:59.534 They have very different trajectories-- 800 00:28:59.534 --> 00:29:01.100 You call it an accident. You call it-- the fact 801 00:29:01.100 --> 00:29:02.667 that Stonewall happened and in 1969 802 00:29:02.667 --> 00:29:04.467 an accident. 803 00:29:04.467 --> 00:29:06.067 Stonewall could not have happened at any other point in 804 00:29:06.067 --> 00:29:06.200 American history except 1969. 805 00:29:06.200 --> 00:29:08.234 The three people that were on here before us gave eloquent 806 00:29:08.234 --> 00:29:09.400 testimony to that. 807 00:29:09.400 --> 00:29:10.400 It isn't an accident of history. 808 00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:12.267 But they also gave eloquent testimony to a 809 00:29:12.267 --> 00:29:15.334 tradition of argument about homosexuality and protest about 810 00:29:15.334 --> 00:29:18.167 homosexuality in this country before that for -- for like a 811 00:29:18.167 --> 00:29:20.834 century and a half. 812 00:29:20.834 --> 00:29:23.267 And it's not as if the argument about who gay people are began 813 00:29:23.267 --> 00:29:25.734 in 1969 at all. 814 00:29:25.734 --> 00:29:28.200 But nobody's saying that. 815 00:29:28.200 --> 00:29:30.667 Well, I'm glad you brought 816 00:29:30.667 --> 00:29:32.133 that up because one 817 00:29:32.133 --> 00:29:34.067 question is when did gay people begin. 818 00:29:34.067 --> 00:29:35.501 You talk about gay people being born, and it being an accident 819 00:29:35.501 --> 00:29:36.834 of birth, but in fact, historians, gay and lesbian 820 00:29:36.834 --> 00:29:38.367 historians like Martin Duberman believe very strongly that the 821 00:29:38.367 --> 00:29:39.901 homosexual as we know it-- 822 00:29:39.901 --> 00:29:41.133 Some-- 823 00:29:41.133 --> 00:29:42.367 --only came into being in the 19th century, 824 00:29:42.367 --> 00:29:43.601 that in ancient Greece and-- 825 00:29:43.601 --> 00:29:44.834 Do you agree with-- Do you agree with the 826 00:29:44.834 --> 00:29:46.067 religious right, Donna? 827 00:29:46.067 --> 00:29:47.501 No. I'm going to finish. 828 00:29:47.501 --> 00:29:49.100 And in their-- well, in some ways I do. 829 00:29:49.100 --> 00:29:50.767 You do? 830 00:29:50.767 --> 00:29:52.534 You believe it's a choice. 831 00:29:52.534 --> 00:29:54.367 And in the Middle Ages-- Let me finish. 832 00:29:54.367 --> 00:29:56.234 That's actually not-- 833 00:29:56.234 --> 00:29:57.767 You and Jerry Falwell have a lot in common. 834 00:29:57.767 --> 00:29:59.300 In many other cultures-- 835 00:29:59.300 --> 00:30:00.868 You need each other 836 00:30:00.868 --> 00:30:02.400 In many other cultures and, and most of 837 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:03.934 history before the 19th century, 838 00:30:03.934 --> 00:30:05.934 there were not homosexual persons. 839 00:30:05.934 --> 00:30:07.634 There were certain acts like sodomy. 840 00:30:07.634 --> 00:30:09.434 In Puritan America, your straight grandmother might be 841 00:30:09.434 --> 00:30:11.033 considered as likely to commit an act of homosexual sodomy as 842 00:30:11.033 --> 00:30:12.734 anyone else. 843 00:30:12.734 --> 00:30:13.767 So-- and-- 844 00:30:13.767 --> 00:30:14.767 Historians are divided about this, Donna. 845 00:30:14.767 --> 00:30:16.133 --there's also-- it's very-- it's also-- 846 00:30:16.133 --> 00:30:18.000 There are many historians that argue-- 847 00:30:18.000 --> 00:30:19.601 Andrew, let her finish. 848 00:30:19.601 --> 00:30:21.200 The mainstream of gay and lesbian history 849 00:30:21.200 --> believes this, but the main point-- I mean, it's also 850 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:24.234 significant that most of the people who take your viewpoint 851 00:30:24.234 --> 00:30:28.300 that it's very bad to discuss choice as a possibility in 852 00:30:28.300 --> 00:30:32.367 becoming gay or lesbian are men because many many lesbians 853 00:30:32.367 --> 00:30:36.400 believe that they have chosen a way of life that allows them not 854 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.434 to be subservient to men. 855 00:30:37.434 --> 00:30:40.100 And good for them. 856 00:30:40.100 --> 00:30:42.534 I have no-- 857 00:30:42.534 --> 00:30:44.934 And you know, in the '70s, many many lesbians 858 00:30:44.934 --> 00:30:47.501 chose a lesbian lifestyle, and I think it's 859 00:30:47.501 --> 00:30:50.067 important to say that. 860 00:30:50.067 --> 00:30:52.634 That is-- 861 00:30:52.634 --> 00:30:55.200 It doesn't mean that everyone chooses, but I 862 00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:57.767 don't think, I don't think it's 863 00:30:57.767 --> 00:30:59.133 harming anything to say that sexuality is fluid-- 864 00:30:59.133 --> 00:31:00.501 Right, it's also-- 865 00:31:00.501 --> 00:31:01.868 When you say-- 866 00:31:01.868 --> 00:31:03.234 Wait, wait. Let-- for my benefit, when you say 867 00:31:03.234 --> 00:31:04.601 ''chose a lesbian, gay or lesbian lifestyle,'' what do you mean, 868 00:31:04.601 --> 00:31:05.968 in terms of chose to have, 869 00:31:05.968 --> 00:31:07.701 chose not because, with free choice at a certain age that 870 00:31:07.701 --> 00:31:09.200 they preferred a gay lesbian lifestyle. 871 00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:10.767 Is that what you mean? 872 00:31:10.767 --> 00:31:12.234 Yes. 873 00:31:12.234 --> 00:31:13.701 I mean with-- 874 00:31:13.701 --> 00:31:15.200 And what do you mean by lifestyle? 875 00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.667 -- with a fairly free choice. Many women who 876 00:31:16.667 --> 00:31:18.133 are in heterosexual marriages -- and to 877 00:31:18.133 --> 00:31:19.901 them it felt like a heterosexual choice. 878 00:31:19.901 --> 00:31:21.734 They could feel an attraction to men; they could feel an 879 00:31:21.734 --> 00:31:23.601 attraction to women. 880 00:31:23.601 --> 00:31:25.501 They decided to live a lesbian lifestyle. 881 00:31:25.501 --> 00:31:26.934 And, I, I hate the word ''lifestyle'' actually. 882 00:31:26.934 --> 00:31:28.234 Lifestyle is different from orientation. 883 00:31:28.234 --> 00:31:29.467 But I mean, but I mean-- well, in fact, I 884 00:31:29.467 --> 00:31:30.834 don't agree that each of us has a natural sexual identity-- 885 00:31:30.834 --> 00:31:32.167 I think there's an underly-- 886 00:31:32.167 --> 00:31:33.501 --a fundamental thing, and-- 887 00:31:33.501 --> 00:31:34.834 The huge majority of gay people believe-- feel 888 00:31:34.834 --> 00:31:36.200 very strongly that their homosexuality is something that is 889 00:31:36.200 --> 00:31:37.534 innate, natural, 890 00:31:37.534 --> 00:31:39.200 constituative, and that-- 891 00:31:39.200 --> 00:31:40.968 I disagree. Talk to some lesbians. 892 00:31:40.968 --> 00:31:42.834 The people who agree with you on this are 893 00:31:42.834 --> 00:31:44.734 completely political. 894 00:31:44.734 --> 00:31:46.667 They're people who are-- have a certain left politics and their 895 00:31:46.667 --> 00:31:48.634 -- homosexuality is an aspect of their politics. 896 00:31:48.634 --> 00:31:50.334 You just sound-- when you say they have ''a 897 00:31:50.334 --> 00:31:51.901 certain left politics'', it's-- you sound like somebody from 898 00:31:51.901 --> 00:31:53.534 the-- from, from the McCarthy period. 899 00:31:53.534 --> 00:31:55.267 I'm sorry, but you do. 900 00:31:55.267 --> 00:31:57.100 No. 901 00:31:57.100 --> 00:31:58.934 It's this demonizing thing. 902 00:31:58.934 --> 00:32:00.501 No, but they-- 903 00:32:00.501 --> 00:32:02.033 That's ridiculous. 904 00:32:02.033 --> 00:32:03.601 It isn't ridiculous. (crosstalk) 905 00:32:03.601 --> 00:32:04.934 That's completely ridiculous. You're stuck in 906 00:32:04.934 --> 00:32:06.267 the McCarthy period. 907 00:32:06.267 --> 00:32:07.467 A certain left-- 908 00:32:07.467 --> 00:32:09.501 You can't actually think again of what the, 909 00:32:09.501 --> 00:32:10.734 the possibilities for gay 910 00:32:10.734 --> 00:32:11.868 people are in the '90s. 911 00:32:11.868 --> 00:32:13.534 You're just stuck in the late '60s. 912 00:32:13.534 --> 00:32:14.567 That's your problem. 913 00:32:14.567 --> 00:32:16.067 I think that that's completely wrong. 914 00:32:16.067 --> 00:32:17.701 You're trying to define-- 915 00:32:17.701 --> 00:32:19.300 Your sense of what possibilities are for the 916 00:32:19.300 --> 00:32:20.901 '90s is if someday we 917 00:32:20.901 --> 00:32:22.467 can get married like heterosexual people as though 918 00:32:22.467 --> 00:32:24.000 all gay people only want heterosex-- want 919 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:25.300 a monogamous marriage-- 920 00:32:25.300 --> 00:32:26.601 And a lot of gay people now want to do now-- a 921 00:32:26.601 --> 00:32:27.901 lot of gay people want to-- 922 00:32:27.901 --> 00:32:29.200 --can serve in the military, 923 00:32:29.200 --> 00:32:30.501 which is also problematic. 924 00:32:30.501 --> 00:32:32.100 And this is a matter of wanting a lot of the 925 00:32:32.100 --> 00:32:33.400 same right as straight people. 926 00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:34.701 Yes, a lot of gay people want to, and nobody 927 00:32:34.701 --> 00:32:36.000 opposes that right. 928 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:37.300 And so that we can have the 929 00:32:37.300 --> 00:32:38.601 same rights as straight 930 00:32:38.601 --> 00:32:40.200 people so that we can do that if we want to. 931 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:41.868 Is that all? 932 00:32:41.868 --> 00:32:43.634 Is that it? 933 00:32:43.634 --> 00:32:45.467 I mean is that the only thing that we're fighting for? 934 00:32:45.467 --> 00:32:46.968 One thing-- 935 00:32:46.968 --> 00:32:48.501 But the-- 936 00:32:48.501 --> 00:32:50.033 That's different issues-- 937 00:32:50.033 --> 00:32:51.567 One thing that a radical gay movement can do 938 00:32:51.567 --> 00:32:53.100 is give straight people things they don't already have. 939 00:32:53.100 --> 00:32:55.067 There are many things about the gay and lesbian liberation 940 00:32:55.067 --> 00:32:57.033 movement that could liberate straight people, too, like from 941 00:32:57.033 --> 00:32:58.467 gender norms, from sexual repression. 942 00:32:58.467 --> 00:32:59.934 I mean, I say-- 943 00:32:59.934 --> 00:33:01.367 These are different issues. 944 00:33:01.367 --> 00:33:02.834 No, actually, they're very much what the gay 945 00:33:02.834 --> 00:33:04.267 movement is concerned with. 946 00:33:04.267 --> 00:33:06.200 But the more you bring in these other things, the 947 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.133 more gay people are going to be alienated by it, and aren't 948 00:33:08.133 --> 00:33:09.701 going to be a part of this movement, which, which should 949 00:33:09.701 --> 00:33:11.267 properly be seen as a movement simply for civil rights, equal 950 00:33:11.267 --> 00:33:12.834 rights for gay people-- 951 00:33:12.834 --> 00:33:14.400 When you hear Barbara talking about Betty 952 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:16.000 Friedan saying, as, as a, at one point a 953 00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:17.968 feminist leader saying, ''Lesbians are a danger to 954 00:33:17.968 --> 00:33:19.200 feminism,'' aren't you worried that in like 20 years people are 955 00:33:19.200 --> 00:33:21.033 going to be saying that about the two of you, because I mean, 956 00:33:21.033 --> 00:33:22.868 you're asking us to say, ''At this point, it's too dangerous 957 00:33:22.868 --> 00:33:24.667 to include other struggles in our struggle.'' 958 00:33:24.667 --> 00:33:26.501 Not dangerous. It's a 959 00:33:26.501 --> 00:33:28.100 fundamentally different issue. 960 00:33:28.100 --> 00:33:29.667 It's just categorially (sic) different. 961 00:33:29.667 --> 00:33:31.267 And you're saying that-- (crosstalk) 962 00:33:31.267 --> 00:33:32.834 I had no objection, I had no objection to a, 963 00:33:32.834 --> 00:33:34.434 to a variety of lifestyles. 964 00:33:34.434 --> 00:33:36.300 The gay rights movement is about making sure that nothing is 965 00:33:36.300 --> 00:33:38.200 forbidden us that is given to 966 00:33:38.200 --> 00:33:40.133 heterosexuals. Period. 967 00:33:40.133 --> 00:33:41.834 I actually do believe of you, I do believe of 968 00:33:41.834 --> 00:33:43.601 you that you don't have an objection to-- I think that you 969 00:33:43.601 --> 00:33:45.434 wrote very movingly in your article about racism, I thought 970 00:33:45.434 --> 00:33:47.300 really really terrifically. 971 00:33:47.300 --> 00:33:49.200 So I bel-- I'm not saying that I think that you're a racist. 972 00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:51.133 I am saying, however, that I do think that you're being somewhat 973 00:33:51.133 --> 00:33:53.100 disingenuous when you say that you don't think it's a danger 974 00:33:53.100 --> 00:33:55.033 because I think that you are saying that, we-- when you said 975 00:33:55.033 --> 00:33:57.000 earlier, before the cameras were rolling, that we haven't gained 976 00:33:57.000 --> 00:33:58.734 anything because we've been too-- and you say in your 977 00:33:58.734 --> 00:34:00.534 article that the left is always sort of losing its energy 978 00:34:00.534 --> 00:34:02.400 because it's casting its glance in too many directions. 979 00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:04.267 It is. 980 00:34:04.267 --> 00:34:06.200 That's to say-- well, that is to say it's a 981 00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:08.133 danger to clash-- cast your glance in so many directions. 982 00:34:08.133 --> 00:34:10.067 It's, it's failing not because of di-- 983 00:34:10.067 --> 00:34:10.601 different directions; it fails because it mistakes as-- to make 984 00:34:10.601 --> 00:34:10.968 this point again -- politics for culture. 985 00:34:10.968 --> 00:34:12.968 And so it, it's a, it's a politics of theater. 986 00:34:12.968 --> 00:34:16.033 It's not a politics of argument, and until you 987 00:34:16.033 --> 00:34:17.033 have a politics of 988 00:34:17.033 --> 00:34:20.100 argument, you will not get the basic gains for gay men and 989 00:34:20.100 --> 00:34:22.133 lesbians who really want to live lives that equal 990 00:34:22.133 --> 00:34:25.667 people in this country. 991 00:34:25.667 --> 00:34:28.501 Oh. 992 00:34:28.501 --> 00:34:31.100 In your piece in The Nation, you, you quoted 993 00:34:31.100 --> 00:34:33.801 Oscar Wilde to the effect that a politics that does-- does not 994 00:34:33.801 --> 00:34:36.601 include utopia in its map is, is-- that kind of map is not 995 00:34:36.601 --> 00:34:38.434 even worth looking at. 996 00:34:38.434 --> 00:34:40.300 I think the whole problem with gay politics is that it's been 997 00:34:40.300 --> 00:34:41.968 guided for too long in too many cases by people who were going 998 00:34:41.968 --> 00:34:43.701 by a map with utopia as the goal. 999 00:34:43.701 --> 00:34:45.501 We need to turn this politics around so that we're going using 1000 00:34:45.501 --> 00:34:46.667 a real map of the real world. 1001 00:34:46.667 --> 00:34:48.701 A real map, as though, as though a real map 1002 00:34:48.701 --> 00:34:50.734 could never-- I mean, you're, you're, you're 1003 00:34:50.734 --> 00:34:52.767 shortening your imagination. 1004 00:34:52.767 --> 00:34:53.767 Completely. 1005 00:34:53.767 --> 00:34:54.801 You're not asking for enough. 1006 00:34:54.801 --> 00:34:56.701 And my imagination's including-- 1007 00:34:56.701 --> 00:34:58.200 You also-- 1008 00:34:58.200 --> 00:34:58.734 --what's possible in this world. 1009 00:34:58.734 --> 00:34:58.834 You also have to think about who is gay. Gay 1010 00:34:58.834 --> 00:35:01.901 people are poor people; gay people are people of color; 1011 00:35:01.901 --> 00:35:03.901 there's a 14-year-old lesbian who lives in the Bronx who 1012 00:35:03.901 --> 00:35:06.968 writes to me, and she writes, ''You know, it's 1013 00:35:06.968 --> 00:35:07.968 supposed to be okay. 1014 00:35:07.968 --> 00:35:08.968 Everything's supposed to be okay with me now that k.d. 1015 00:35:08.968 --> 00:35:11.367 lang is out, but Donna, you know, it's not okay, and I'm 1016 00:35:11.367 --> 00:35:12.033 still suicidal.'' 1017 00:35:12.033 --> 00:35:14.033 But, Donna, there are also disagreements to 1018 00:35:14.033 --> 00:35:16.067 be, to be, you know, just to be fair, about 1019 00:35:16.067 --> 00:35:17.100 how one helps the poor, how one-- 1020 00:35:17.100 --> 00:35:18.133 Exactly. 1021 00:35:18.133 --> 00:35:20.133 --how one deals with race. It is not simply a 1022 00:35:20.133 --> 00:35:21.167 question of whether you're for them or 1023 00:35:21.167 --> 00:35:22.167 against them. 1024 00:35:22.167 --> 00:35:24.200 There are many different arguments about how we might 1025 00:35:24.200 --> 00:35:27.234 help the underclass, how we might, how we might deal with 1026 00:35:27.234 --> 00:35:28.400 sexism, how we might de-- 1027 00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:29.767 I mean, you're-- 1028 00:35:29.767 --> 00:35:31.100 But-- 1029 00:35:31.100 --> 00:35:32.467 I mean, and just, just accept that it's not 1030 00:35:32.467 --> 00:35:33.834 either you're for all these people or against these people. 1031 00:35:33.834 --> 00:35:35.200 No. 1032 00:35:35.200 --> 00:35:36.567 There's just a disagreement about 1033 00:35:36.567 --> 00:35:36.934 what we can do. 1034 00:35:36.934 --> 00:35:38.167 But there's also a moral issue here. 1035 00:35:38.167 --> 00:35:39.534 I believe that it's morally bankrupt to say, ''Give me my 1036 00:35:39.534 --> 00:35:41.567 rights, but not theirs, not theirs, and not theirs.'' 1037 00:35:41.567 --> 00:35:42.667 It's, it's not a matter of saying that. 1038 00:35:42.667 --> 00:35:43.801 But I'm not saying that, and no 1039 00:35:43.801 --> 00:35:44.868 one's saying that-- 1040 00:35:44.868 --> 00:35:45.801 It's not a matter of saying that. It's a matter-- 1041 00:35:45.801 --> 00:35:47.100 --and it's a, it's a terrible calumny to say 1042 00:35:47.100 --> 00:35:48.567 that we are. 1043 00:35:48.567 --> 00:35:50.133 It's a matter of saying-- 1044 00:35:50.133 --> 00:35:51.834 We're saying, ''These are these issues. 1045 00:35:51.834 --> 00:35:53.133 These are these issues. 1046 00:35:53.133 --> 00:35:54.767 Let us see the differences. 1047 00:35:54.767 --> 00:35:55.234 Let us be intelligent about it, instead of believing we're--'' 1048 00:35:55.234 --> 00:35:55.801 But if you were, but if you-- 1049 00:35:55.801 --> 00:35:56.200 ''--we're stuck in '69, and we have a, a 1050 00:35:56.200 --> 00:35:56.267 summer of love.'' 1051 00:35:56.267 --> 00:35:57.968 It's a matter of being intelligent about these 1052 00:35:57.968 --> 00:36:00.334 issues and to see what the best answer to each of 1053 00:36:00.334 --> 00:36:02.300 these issues is. 1054 00:36:02.300 --> 00:36:04.267 --why then if you weren't male, you might not 1055 00:36:04.267 --> 00:36:06.267 be able to separate those aspects of yourself so easily. 1056 00:36:06.267 --> 00:36:08.234 If you weren't white, you might not be able to think about, 1057 00:36:08.234 --> 00:36:10.234 ''Okay, now I'm going to think as a black man. 1058 00:36:10.234 --> 00:36:12.234 Now I'm going to think as a homosexual.'' You might not be 1059 00:36:12.234 --> 00:36:13.234 able to draw that kind of a line down yourself and decide-- 1060 00:36:13.234 --> 00:36:14.234 It's not that-- no. 1061 00:36:14.234 --> 00:36:15.267 ''Okay, well the gay rights movement part of 1062 00:36:15.267 --> 00:36:16.400 me will do this, and the black part of me will do that. 1063 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:18.400 You're looking at the politics as, as, as this 1064 00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:21.467 thing where all the ans-- all the right answers are on this 1065 00:36:21.467 --> 00:36:24.501 side, and all the wrong answers are on that side, and that we 1066 00:36:24.501 --> 00:36:25.501 all have to buy into this one Column A here. 1067 00:36:25.501 --> 00:36:26.534 And it doesn't work that way. 1068 00:36:26.534 --> 00:36:28.534 Each of us as individuals should look at each issue separately 1069 00:36:28.534 --> 00:36:29.901 and see which we think is the best route-- 1070 00:36:29.901 --> 00:36:30.567 Right. 1071 00:36:30.567 --> 00:36:33.200 Let me bring Tony in and then come back to you. 1072 00:36:33.200 --> 00:36:35.734 I just think something's being stood on its 1073 00:36:35.734 --> 00:36:38.133 head here. 1074 00:36:38.133 --> 00:36:40.434 It's that the left is constantly being represented as -- I mean, 1075 00:36:40.434 --> 00:36:42.667 this is sort of the political correctness bashing -- that the 1076 00:36:42.667 --> 00:36:44.834 left is being represented as being, you know, incredibly 1077 00:36:44.834 --> 00:36:46.968 monofocal and single-issue and demanding a 1078 00:36:46.968 --> 00:36:49.300 certain kind of thought. 1079 00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:52.200 What we're asking for is an expansion of thought, not a 1080 00:36:52.200 --> 00:36:55.133 limitation of thought. 1081 00:36:55.133 --> 00:36:58.033 You're talking-- 1082 00:36:58.033 --> 00:36:59.968 You're talking monolithic 1083 00:36:59.968 --> 00:37:01.868 thinking, not monofocal. 1084 00:37:01.868 --> 00:37:03.234 --about a real, you're talking 1085 00:37:03.234 --> 00:37:04.701 about a real politics. 1086 00:37:04.701 --> 00:37:06.067 I agree with Donna that it's morally bankrupt. 1087 00:37:06.067 --> 00:37:07.601 I also agree that it's-- in terms of pragmatics, it's 1088 00:37:07.601 --> 00:37:09.234 bankrupt because I don't think that we're going to get-- 1089 00:37:09.234 --> 00:37:10.968 What's bankrupt? 1090 00:37:10.968 --> 00:37:12.734 I think that to, to simply say that, that 1091 00:37:12.734 --> 00:37:14.601 short-term strategizing around what Andrew calls ''eliminating 1092 00:37:14.601 --> 00:37:16.467 proactive discrimination'', which is gays in the military 1093 00:37:16.467 --> 00:37:18.133 and the ban on marriages, is not enough. 1094 00:37:18.133 --> 00:37:19.901 It's very important, but it's not enough, and that if we only 1095 00:37:19.901 --> 00:37:21.701 get those things, we will still be-- 1096 00:37:21.701 --> 00:37:23.634 But pragmatic. 1097 00:37:23.634 --> 00:37:24.801 --as gay people, suffering terribly. 1098 00:37:24.801 --> 00:37:26.067 When I say that capitalism is a dirty word; well, maybe you 1099 00:37:26.067 --> 00:37:27.400 don't agree that capitalism is a dirty word, but 1100 00:37:27.400 --> 00:37:28.601 something is truly-- 1101 00:37:28.601 --> 00:37:30.634 Hardly anybody does in this country, Tony. 1102 00:37:30.634 --> 00:37:32.667 (crosstalk) If you want to be pragmatic, you've got to start 1103 00:37:32.667 --> 00:37:33.801 engaging America-- 1104 00:37:33.801 --> 00:37:35.701 No actually, I think that's 1105 00:37:35.701 --> 00:37:36.701 actually-- I think that's-- 1106 00:37:36.701 --> 00:37:37.734 --not engaging the West Village. 1107 00:37:37.734 --> 00:37:39.734 --that's hurting-- the 20 million poeple 1108 00:37:39.734 --> 00:37:40.367 who live on the streets in this country think that capitalism is 1109 00:37:40.367 --> 00:37:41.067 a problem. 1110 00:37:41.067 --> 00:37:42.300 Maybe they don't know the word ''capitalism.'' Some of them do; 1111 00:37:42.300 --> 00:37:44.901 some of them don't. 1112 00:37:44.901 --> 00:37:46.033 But they think that it's a problem. 1113 00:37:46.033 --> 00:37:47.133 You try getting elected President 1114 00:37:47.133 --> 00:37:48.968 arguing capitalism is a dirty word. 1115 00:37:48.968 --> 00:37:50.834 I do know that if-- 1116 00:37:50.834 --> 00:37:52.267 Just get, get-- 1117 00:37:52.267 --> 00:37:53.701 I do know that if AIDS-- 1118 00:37:53.701 --> 00:37:54.367 --get real. 1119 00:37:54.367 --> 00:37:55.534 --for instance has environmental cofactors, and 1120 00:37:55.534 --> 00:37:56.968 if the environment is crumbling, and if there is 1121 00:37:56.968 --> 00:37:57.467 a reason for the 1122 00:37:57.467 --> 00:37:57.968 environmental disintegration that's going on, it is my 1123 00:37:57.968 --> 00:37:59.000 concern as a gay man as well as a human being that the 1124 00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:02.067 environment is collapsing, and I have to be able to think that 1125 00:38:02.067 --> 00:38:04.100 large to be able to think small. 1126 00:38:04.100 --> 00:38:05.400 What are you aiming for? 1127 00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.200 What are you going for? 1128 00:38:07.200 --> 00:38:08.000 But don't you-- do you really think-- 1129 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:08.133 It's not enough that we have a gay culture. 1130 00:38:08.133 --> 00:38:09.601 Well many, many, many gay people, for 1131 00:38:09.601 --> 00:38:10.601 example, are quite religious. 1132 00:38:10.601 --> 00:38:11.601 When you ask them what are they going-- 1133 00:38:11.601 --> 00:38:13.133 I am a believer myself. 1134 00:38:13.133 --> 00:38:14.167 So yeah. 1135 00:38:14.167 --> 00:38:15.300 --for, they talk about their religious 1136 00:38:15.300 --> 00:38:16.567 faith, and they understand that religious faith is 1137 00:38:16.567 --> 00:38:17.267 separate than politics. 1138 00:38:17.267 --> 00:38:19.300 For, for many people from the '60s, for many people from that 1139 00:38:19.300 --> 00:38:22.334 period, politics is religion, and they cannot see that a whole 1140 00:38:22.334 --> 00:38:25.367 new generation has a different view of the world. 1141 00:38:25.367 --> 00:38:28.434 They're not right wingers; they're just people who exist in 1142 00:38:28.434 --> 00:38:30.434 a different world and a different climate, and they are 1143 00:38:30.434 --> 00:38:33.067 the people who are trying to reclaim-- 1144 00:38:33.067 --> 00:38:36.067 Where is the dividing line between 1145 00:38:36.067 --> 00:38:39.067 culture and politics? 1146 00:38:39.067 --> 00:38:41.734 --the gay movement forum. 1147 00:38:41.734 --> 00:38:44.467 But where is that divider? 1148 00:38:44.467 --> 00:38:47.200 I'm sorry, because Donna, you were going to say something. 1149 00:38:47.200 --> 00:38:49.534 Well, I just, I just want to get back to what 1150 00:38:49.534 --> 00:38:51.968 you were saying, Tony, about the, the practical reason to not 1151 00:38:51.968 --> 00:38:54.467 divide, not have a narrow conception of 1152 00:38:54.467 --> 00:38:57.033 the gay rights movement. 1153 00:38:57.033 --> 00:38:59.434 Look at what the religious right is doing. 1154 00:38:59.434 --> 00:39:01.467 They've organized an amazing, well-funded campaign against us. 1155 00:39:01.467 --> 00:39:03.534 Ten states will have anti-gay ballot initiatives on the ballot 1156 00:39:03.534 --> 00:39:06.133 in 1994-- 1157 00:39:06.133 --> 00:39:08.767 By being extremely focussed. 1158 00:39:08.767 --> 00:39:11.133 Yes. 1159 00:39:11.133 --> 00:39:13.501 Well, in fact, in fact, 1160 00:39:13.501 --> 00:39:15.734 they're able to organize-- 1161 00:39:15.734 --> 00:39:17.934 And you want us to, you want us to dissipate 1162 00:39:17.934 --> 00:39:19.167 our energies-- 1163 00:39:19.167 --> 00:39:20.400 --in the black community and among poor 1164 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:21.801 people because the gay movement, for 1165 00:39:21.801 --> 00:39:23.234 the most part, nationwide, has ignored those communities 1166 00:39:23.234 --> 00:39:24.634 because the gay movement has bought on to the image of us as, 1167 00:39:24.634 --> 00:39:26.067 oh, we're all rich; oh, that gay people 1168 00:39:26.067 --> 00:39:27.467 should get rights because 1169 00:39:27.467 --> 00:39:28.567 we're affluent, because we can afford them, because you will 1170 00:39:28.567 --> 00:39:30.400 sell things to us. 1171 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:31.467 Therefore the Christian-- 1172 00:39:31.467 --> 00:39:32.534 I don't think that all-- 1173 00:39:32.534 --> 00:39:33.868 No, excuse me. Excuse me. 1174 00:39:33.868 --> 00:39:35.334 The gay games took an ad in Advertising Age magazine that 1175 00:39:35.334 --> 00:39:36.934 said, ''The Gay Games: The way to reach the affluent gay 1176 00:39:36.934 --> 00:39:38.634 market.'' Now, what affluent gay market? 1177 00:39:38.634 --> 00:39:40.334 What about the non-affluent gay people? 1178 00:39:40.334 --> 00:39:41.400 And, the religious right used that issue in Colorado. 1179 00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:42.467 That is why they won in Colorado because they painted gay people 1180 00:39:42.467 --> 00:39:43.534 as wealthier and more privileged than everyone else. 1181 00:39:43.534 --> 00:39:44.601 But how do you deal with 1182 00:39:44.601 --> 00:39:45.667 the fact, for example, 1183 00:39:45.667 --> 00:39:47.100 that levels of disapproval of homosexuality are far higher 1184 00:39:47.100 --> 00:39:48.434 among black Americans by every poll than among white Americans? 1185 00:39:48.434 --> 00:39:49.767 How do you bridge your, bridge your coalition when you find 1186 00:39:49.767 --> 00:39:51.534 that in fact racially some of the biggest enemies of the gay 1187 00:39:51.534 --> 00:39:53.334 rights movement are among minority populations? 1188 00:39:53.334 --> 00:39:55.100 Well, I'm not familiar-- 1189 00:39:55.100 --> 00:39:56.868 Or they're just 1190 00:39:56.868 --> 00:39:58.634 suffering from false consciousness. 1191 00:39:58.634 --> 00:39:59.868 I'm not familiar with those polls. 1192 00:39:59.868 --> 00:40:00.901 I wouldn't say they were 1193 00:40:00.901 --> 00:40:02.334 suffering from false consciousness. 1194 00:40:02.334 --> 00:40:03.934 I think there also are polls in which-- 1195 00:40:03.934 --> 00:40:06.367 They agree with the religious right. 1196 00:40:06.367 --> 00:40:08.300 I think there also are polls in which black 1197 00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:09.000 people favor gay rights. 1198 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:11.033 But the way to do it is not by ignoring the needs 1199 00:40:11.033 --> 00:40:12.033 of the black community-- 1200 00:40:12.033 --> 00:40:13.267 I don't want to ignore the needs 1201 00:40:13.267 --> 00:40:14.567 of the black community. 1202 00:40:14.567 --> 00:40:15.901 I'd like to see-- I'd like to see-- 1203 00:40:15.901 --> 00:40:17.100 Or to ignore the parts of the black community 1204 00:40:17.100 --> 00:40:18.467 that are lesbian or gay. 1205 00:40:18.467 --> 00:40:19.667 I want to see gay black 1206 00:40:19.667 --> 00:40:20.834 leaders; I want to see 1207 00:40:20.834 --> 00:40:22.100 black gay leaders. 1208 00:40:22.100 --> 00:40:23.400 I mean, I see nothing wrong with that at all. 1209 00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:24.801 Right. 1210 00:40:24.801 --> 00:40:25.901 But (unintelligible) especially in watching-- (crosstalk) 1211 00:40:25.901 --> 00:40:27.667 I just don't want to see you-- 1212 00:40:27.667 --> 00:40:29.400 Andrew, how do you respond, how do you respond-- 1213 00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:30.834 --a handful of-- 1214 00:40:30.834 --> 00:40:32.234 --to those-- I'm sorry, Bruce. 1215 00:40:32.234 --> 00:40:33.400 Keep going with that. 1216 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:34.534 There's no reason why a handful of leftists 1217 00:40:34.534 --> 00:40:35.701 should be formulating a whole menu of, of, of-- 1218 00:40:35.701 --> 00:40:36.868 When is the last time I heard somebody talking 1219 00:40:36.868 --> 00:40:37.934 about a handful of leftists? 1220 00:40:37.934 --> 00:40:39.567 I mean, what, you know, hello? Sorry. 1221 00:40:39.567 --> 00:40:41.100 Well not maybe in the circles you move in you 1222 00:40:41.100 --> 00:40:42.634 don't hear that. 1223 00:40:42.634 --> 00:40:44.200 But most gay people in America you do-- 1224 00:40:44.200 --> 00:40:45.734 Maybe in some circles you do, which might be in 1225 00:40:45.734 --> 00:40:47.734 American Spectator magazine. 1226 00:40:47.734 --> 00:40:49.234 I mean-- 1227 00:40:49.234 --> 00:40:50.734 --will listen to the things that you two are 1228 00:40:50.734 --> 00:40:52.234 saying and, and really not identify all of-- with any 1229 00:40:52.234 --> 00:40:53.501 of it. 1230 00:40:53.501 --> 00:40:54.801 You know, I think that's actually not true. 1231 00:40:54.801 --> 00:40:56.200 I would imagine Donna Minkowitz has a much larger readership 1232 00:40:56.200 --> 00:40:57.534 than you do, and I think that more people have come to see 1233 00:40:57.534 --> 00:40:58.567 Angels in America than will buy A Place at the Table. 1234 00:40:58.567 --> 00:40:59.701 I mean, I don't want to get like, you know-- 1235 00:40:59.701 --> 00:41:00.901 No, I don't want you to, either. 1236 00:41:00.901 --> 00:41:02.033 Tony, that's unbecoming, Tony. 1237 00:41:02.033 --> 00:41:03.367 No, no, but what, what he's doing though is 1238 00:41:03.367 --> 00:41:05.000 pushing us into the margins and saying, ''This is a minority 1239 00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:06.667 viewpoint,'' and it's not. 1240 00:41:06.667 --> 00:41:08.334 All right-- 1241 00:41:08.334 --> 00:41:09.968 I think that a lot of the people in the audiences 1242 00:41:09.968 --> 00:41:11.634 for Angels in America are among 1243 00:41:11.634 --> 00:41:13.133 those very affluent gay people that Donna 1244 00:41:13.133 --> 00:41:14.667 Minkowitz looks down on. 1245 00:41:14.667 --> 00:41:15.934 Well, yeah, a lot of them are. 1246 00:41:15.934 --> 00:41:17.200 Well, in fact, in fact, the 1247 00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:18.467 gay historian, John 1248 00:41:18.467 --> 00:41:19.734 D'Emilio has said there are more of us, more 1249 00:41:19.734 --> 00:41:21.000 lesbians and gay men 1250 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:22.601 than, than there used to be, and there will continue to be more 1251 00:41:22.601 --> 00:41:24.300 of us. 1252 00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:26.067 There are more open ones, more 1253 00:41:26.067 --> 00:41:26.901 visible ones of us. 1254 00:41:26.901 --> 00:41:27.767 So if there's not a fixed number-- No, and 1255 00:41:27.767 --> 00:41:28.434 there also are more (unintelligible) (crosstalk) And 1256 00:41:28.434 --> 00:41:29.167 if our numbers grow, we don't have to think of ourselves as 1257 00:41:29.167 --> 00:41:29.968 this fixed group that you seem to be referring to. 1258 00:41:29.968 --> 00:41:30.567 Okay. 1259 00:41:30.567 --> 00:41:32.601 Let me just make this one thing. 1260 00:41:32.601 --> 00:41:36.667 I'm going to invite Ian McKellen, who speaks eloquently 1261 00:41:36.667 --> 00:41:39.701 to these issues and other issues, to join us at this table 1262 00:41:39.701 --> 00:41:41.734 if he would like, or we can do a separate 1263 00:41:41.734 --> 00:41:43.767 thing, but we, we don't 1264 00:41:43.767 --> 00:41:45.767 break here for commercials, but I want to continue this 1265 00:41:45.767 --> 00:41:47.801 conversation and invite Ian to come in here, and we'll take a 1266 00:41:47.801 --> 00:41:50.834 break here in just a moment to do that. 1267 00:41:50.834 --> 00:41:52.868 But let me just get this one last point. 1268 00:41:52.868 --> 00:41:55.901 Here is what I-- having listened to all of this, I mean, is it 1269 00:41:55.901 --> 00:41:59.968 what you two are saying, the bottom line is that you want to 1270 00:41:59.968 --> 00:42:05.033 speak to issues of liberation and equality without necessarily 1271 00:42:05.033 --> 00:42:09.100 assuming you have the same political views on other issues 1272 00:42:09.100 --> 00:42:11.133 that Tony does and Donna does? 1273 00:42:11.133 --> 00:42:13.167 Yeah, I want formal equality for gay people 1274 00:42:13.167 --> 00:42:15.200 and lesbians, and that's what the gay 1275 00:42:15.200 --> 00:42:16.200 movement should be about. 1276 00:42:16.200 --> 00:42:19.234 I have no problem with people in the culture at large expressing 1277 00:42:19.234 --> 00:42:20.334 themselves in whatever way they want. 1278 00:42:20.334 --> 00:42:23.300 That's the glory, I think, of a free market 1279 00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:24.334 and a liberal democracy. 1280 00:42:24.334 --> 00:42:27.367 You know, it's no accident that one of the least left wing 1281 00:42:27.367 --> 00:42:30.634 countries in the world, the US, has one of the strongest gay 1282 00:42:30.634 --> 00:42:33.334 movements because the market in a free society allows for 1283 00:42:33.334 --> 00:42:36.100 individuals to find their own destiny the way they want. 1284 00:42:36.100 --> 00:42:38.901 That's what America's about; that's what I 1285 00:42:38.901 --> 00:42:41.334 think the gay movement-- 1286 00:42:41.334 --> 00:42:42.734 Okay. 1287 00:42:42.734 --> 00:42:44.167 --should be about. 1288 00:42:44.167 --> 00:42:45.567 All right, Tony, last word in terms of what you 1289 00:42:45.567 --> 00:42:46.968 have learned and listened here today, what, what you go away 1290 00:42:46.968 --> 00:42:48.601 from this with. 1291 00:42:48.601 --> 00:42:50.033 I just, I think that, again, I think that, that, 1292 00:42:50.033 --> 00:42:51.367 again, the people that are proclaiming that, that there's 1293 00:42:51.367 --> 00:42:52.634 been this sort of leftist domination are also the people 1294 00:42:52.634 --> 00:42:54.067 that are now saying, ''This is what the gay movement should be 1295 00:42:54.067 --> 00:42:55.400 about,'' which is not putting words in your mouth, which is 1296 00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:56.634 what in fact you just said. 1297 00:42:56.634 --> 00:42:57.834 The gay movement should be about whatever gay people and lesbian 1298 00:42:57.834 --> 00:42:59.767 people are about. 1299 00:42:59.767 --> 00:43:00.801 In all of their diversity. 1300 00:43:00.801 --> 00:43:01.801 And it reflects, it reflects an immense 1301 00:43:01.801 --> 00:43:05.868 diversity, and I think that, that, that that diversity will 1302 00:43:05.868 --> 00:43:08.767 inevitably move us in all sorts of directions. 1303 00:43:08.767 --> 00:43:10.868 Bruce. 1304 00:43:10.868 --> 00:43:12.601 Quickly, I've got-- 1305 00:43:12.601 --> 00:43:14.300 Diversity-- 1306 00:43:14.300 --> 00:43:16.033 --less than a minute. 1307 00:43:16.033 --> 00:43:17.767 --is an important word to me. The gay population 1308 00:43:17.767 --> 00:43:19.501 in this country is incredibly diverse, including 1309 00:43:19.501 --> 00:43:21.234 politically diverse. 1310 00:43:21.234 --> 00:43:22.267 Gay people have the same political range that, that 1311 00:43:22.267 --> 00:43:24.133 straight people have from conservative to very left, and 1312 00:43:24.133 --> 00:43:27.167 simply if-- the more we try to tie gay politics, gay equal 1313 00:43:27.167 --> 00:43:27.334 rights, to a very left-leaning agenda, the more gay people are 1314 00:43:27.334 --> 00:43:28.601 going to be alienated-- 1315 00:43:28.601 --> 00:43:29.801 Too-- all right. 1316 00:43:29.801 --> 00:43:31.667 --from it-- 1317 00:43:31.667 --> 00:43:32.567 Donna. 1318 00:43:32.567 --> 00:43:33.467 --and the less effective it can be. 1319 00:43:33.467 --> 00:43:34.434 The gay movement is not just about sexuality. 1320 00:43:34.434 --> 00:43:36.467 It's also about gender. 1321 00:43:36.467 --> 00:43:38.501 The gay movement is about men who are feminine and women who 1322 00:43:38.501 --> 00:43:41.534 are masculine and creating a space for that. 1323 00:43:41.534 --> 00:43:43.567 That's why the gay movement can be liberating for everyone, 1324 00:43:43.567 --> 00:43:45.601 including straight people who don't want to be 1325 00:43:45.601 --> 00:43:47.100 bound by gender norms. 1326 00:43:47.100 --> 00:43:49.133 I thank each of you for coming and contributing 1327 00:43:49.133 --> 00:43:50.167 to this conversation. 1328 00:43:50.167 --> 00:43:53.200 This is the 25th anniversary of Stonewall, number one; number 1329 00:43:53.200 --> 00:43:57.267 two, it's the-- we're approaching Gay Games, and Ian 1330 00:43:57.267 --> 00:44:01.300 McKellen is coming up now, a one-man show, A Knight Out. 1331 00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:03.767 We'll be back in just a moment with Ian McKellen. 1332 00:44:03.767 --> 00:44:05.334 Thank you all. Pleasure. 1333 00:44:05.334 --> 00:44:06.367 Thank you. 1334 00:44:06.367 --> 00:44:08.367 Thank you 1335 00:44:08.367 --> 00:44:21.567 Sir Ian McKellen 1336 00:44:21.567 --> 00:44:24.601 Forget that Britain's "Sir" -- Sir Ian McKellen 1337 00:44:24.601 --> 00:44:26.634 is considered his generation's successor to 1338 00:44:26.634 --> 00:44:27.734 Sir Laurence Olivier. 1339 00:44:27.734 --> 00:44:30.667 Never mind the Tony he won on Broadway for playing Salieri in 1340 00:44:30.667 --> 00:44:33.701 Peter Shaffer's Amadeus-- Amadeus. 1341 00:44:33.701 --> 00:44:36.767 Also forget about McKellen being a record five-time recipient of 1342 00:44:36.767 --> 00:44:38.801 Britain's Tony, the Olivier awards. 1343 00:44:38.801 --> 00:44:42.834 Sir Ian is out and about in his one man show, A Knight Out, 1344 00:44:42.834 --> 00:44:45.801 benefiting the Gay Games Cultural Festival taking place 1345 00:44:45.801 --> 00:44:48.834 this week in New York City, and I'm very pleased to have him 1346 00:44:48.834 --> 00:44:50.868 here back at this table. Welcome. 1347 00:44:50.868 --> 00:44:52.000 Thank you. 1348 00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:53.501 It must be-- 1349 00:44:53.501 --> 00:44:54.701 You-- I-- 1350 00:44:54.701 --> 00:44:55.701 --a relief after those four. 1351 00:44:55.701 --> 00:44:56.701 My God-- 1352 00:44:56.701 --> 00:44:57.467 I, I issued you an invitation to join in-- Sir 1353 00:44:57.467 --> 00:44:57.968 I know, and I, I didn't accept it. 1354 00:44:57.968 --> 00:45:00.000 You certainly didn't. 1355 00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.033 I felt a little bit out-- 1356 00:45:02.033 --> 00:45:03.033 And, and-- I just want to make the sense, in 1357 00:45:03.033 --> 00:45:04.200 the sense that you 1358 00:45:04.200 --> 00:45:06.067 did not-- our invitation was for you to come and engage in a 1359 00:45:06.067 --> 00:45:08.100 one-on-one conversation, so that's why-- 1360 00:45:08.100 --> 00:45:10.133 Yes. 1361 00:45:10.133 --> 00:45:12.167 --it's certainly appropriate for you to say, ''I 1362 00:45:12.167 --> 00:45:14.200 want to talk about some-- a variety of things.'' 1363 00:45:14.200 --> 00:45:16.200 I think I'm too much of a newcomer to this business 1364 00:45:16.200 --> 00:45:18.234 of gay politics. 1365 00:45:18.234 --> 00:45:22.300 I've, I've only been complete in my journey of coming out, of 1366 00:45:22.300 --> 00:45:23.300 being totally honest about my sexuality-- 1367 00:45:23.300 --> 00:45:24.334 Since-- 1368 00:45:24.334 --> 00:45:25.334 -- five or six years ago. And-- 1369 00:45:25.334 --> 00:45:27.367 Yeah, it was-- in fact, we-- I made 1370 00:45:27.367 --> 00:45:29.400 note of this before. 1371 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:30.400 I think the first time you really talked about it much on 1372 00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.434 television was with me in London in eighty-seven-- 1373 00:45:32.434 --> 00:45:33.467 That's right. 1374 00:45:33.467 --> 00:45:34.467 Yes, yes it was. 1375 00:45:34.467 --> 00:45:37.501 But the issues they're talking about seem to me as a little bit 1376 00:45:37.501 --> 00:45:39.901 of an outsider as rather narrow. 1377 00:45:39.901 --> 00:45:42.701 They're very much to do with American society-- 1378 00:45:42.701 --> 00:45:44.501 Yeah. 1379 00:45:44.501 --> 00:45:46.267 -- and although you, you would detect 1380 00:45:46.267 --> 00:45:49.334 the division between what they call the right and the left in 1381 00:45:49.334 --> 00:45:53.734 other, in other countries, I think most of us in England at 1382 00:45:53.734 --> 00:45:57.868 any rate, much as we might be trying to change the laws, which 1383 00:45:57.868 --> 00:46:00.968 everyone around that table would, would want to happen -- 1384 00:46:00.968 --> 00:46:04.033 much as we, I enjoy discovering all sorts of people who support 1385 00:46:04.033 --> 00:46:07.100 gay rights in the way that I support their rights in 1386 00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:10.133 different areas of the culture. 1387 00:46:10.133 --> 00:46:13.567 Actually the people I'm most concerned about are people for 1388 00:46:13.567 --> 00:46:17.000 whom that sort of conversation is totally irrelevant because if 1389 00:46:17.000 --> 00:46:20.834 they were to have it in the pub or to have it in the classroom 1390 00:46:20.834 --> 00:46:22.868 or to have it even in the church or the Sunday 1391 00:46:22.868 --> 00:46:23.868 School, they would 1392 00:46:23.868 --> 00:46:25.901 find that they were drummed out of those institutions and thrown 1393 00:46:25.901 --> 00:46:27.934 out of buildings. 1394 00:46:27.934 --> 00:46:30.167 And those are the people I'm trying to address, and i think 1395 00:46:30.167 --> 00:46:32.200 that's the importance of shows like yours which will give 1396 00:46:32.200 --> 00:46:37.267 lonely people right across this nation a sense that there will 1397 00:46:37.267 --> 00:46:40.300 be a time when they can belong and have the privilege of 1398 00:46:40.300 --> 00:46:42.334 disagreeing amongst people who are-- 1399 00:46:42.334 --> 00:46:43.367 Yeah. 1400 00:46:43.367 --> 00:46:44.367 --openly gay. 1401 00:46:44.367 --> 00:46:46.400 And of course, most gays and lesbians in this country are too 1402 00:46:46.400 --> 00:46:49.434 frightened to be open about their sexuality. 1403 00:46:49.434 --> 00:46:53.501 Have you -- and, and it does not prove one case 1404 00:46:53.501 --> 00:46:57.567 or the other -- I know that one of the reasons you delayed 1405 00:46:57.567 --> 00:47:00.601 coming out was because you had been hammered-- it had been 1406 00:47:00.601 --> 00:47:03.634 hammered into your head in Hollywood and other places that 1407 00:47:03.634 --> 00:47:06.701 if, in fact, you came out, it would affect your career 1408 00:47:06.701 --> 00:47:07.701 opportunities, correct? 1409 00:47:07.701 --> 00:47:08.734 Mm. 1410 00:47:08.734 --> 00:47:10.734 What has it done to your career opportunities? 1411 00:47:10.734 --> 00:47:11.767 It's not just actors who are 1412 00:47:11.767 --> 00:47:12.767 told that if they-- 1413 00:47:12.767 --> 00:47:13.767 Right. 1414 00:47:13.767 --> 00:47:14.767 --come out, they'll lose their job, politicians-- 1415 00:47:14.767 --> 00:47:16.234 Sure. 1416 00:47:16.234 --> 00:47:17.467 --I'd say the same 1417 00:47:17.467 --> 00:47:18.467 thing-- they wouldn't get reelected. 1418 00:47:18.467 --> 00:47:20.200 Time and again that's proved to be false. 1419 00:47:20.200 --> 00:47:23.234 And my career seems to have taken off in most alarmingly 1420 00:47:23.234 --> 00:47:24.267 interesting directions-- 1421 00:47:24.267 --> 00:47:25.267 I know that, and so what 1422 00:47:25.267 --> 00:47:26.334 does that say? . 1423 00:47:26.334 --> 00:47:27.334 --since coming out. 1424 00:47:27.334 --> 00:47:28.300 Well, I think it just says that I've got a knighthood and I'm 55 1425 00:47:28.300 --> 00:47:29.667 years old-- 1426 00:47:29.667 --> 00:47:30.801 Yeah. 1427 00:47:30.801 --> 00:47:31.367 --and, you know, I'm fairly secure in the 1428 00:47:31.367 --> 00:47:32.367 upper branches of my profession. 1429 00:47:32.367 --> 00:47:36.434 It's for the young people that one has to look to see if 1430 00:47:36.434 --> 00:47:37.434 there's been any shift. 1431 00:47:37.434 --> 00:47:40.467 Now, Steven Spinella has just won the Tony two years running, 1432 00:47:40.467 --> 00:47:41.968 and he's an openly gay man. 1433 00:47:41.968 --> 00:47:42.501 Mm-hm. 1434 00:47:42.501 --> 00:47:44.534 There are many young gay actors having 1435 00:47:44.534 --> 00:47:48.601 similar successes in the United Kingdom, and the theater, of 1436 00:47:48.601 --> 00:47:53.667 course, is an easier proposition than television and film, who 1437 00:47:53.667 --> 00:47:55.701 are playing to much louder audien-- larger audiences-- 1438 00:47:55.701 --> 00:47:56.701 Yeah. 1439 00:47:56.701 --> 00:47:58.734 --and where producers and managements are 1440 00:47:58.734 --> 00:48:02.801 looking to, frankly, a lower common denominator, which 1441 00:48:02.801 --> 00:48:05.100 includes lower common prejudice. 1442 00:48:05.100 --> 00:48:07.167 Yeah. 1443 00:48:07.167 --> 00:48:09.167 And they would like the 1444 00:48:09.167 --> 00:48:10.200 world to be homogeneous. 1445 00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:10.901 They would like everyone to be the same so that everyone will 1446 00:48:10.901 --> 00:48:12.934 buy the product that's on sale during the 1447 00:48:12.934 --> 00:48:15.234 intermission of the show. 1448 00:48:15.234 --> 00:48:16.234 I-- 1449 00:48:16.234 --> 00:48:17.000 And so there is great pressure, 1450 00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:19.000 even from producers and managers and agents who are 1451 00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:23.067 themselves openly gay, to say to their clients, the actors, 1452 00:48:23.067 --> 00:48:25.100 ''Please, no, stay where you are, or 1453 00:48:25.100 --> 00:48:27.133 you'll upset the applecart.'' 1454 00:48:27.133 --> 00:48:29.167 Tell me about A Knight Out. 1455 00:48:29.167 --> 00:48:30.167 A Knight Out. 1456 00:48:30.167 --> 00:48:32.200 Well, I talk about these issues and I-- 1457 00:48:32.200 --> 00:48:33.234 I mean, it's a-- it really-- go 1458 00:48:33.234 --> 00:48:35.767 ahead, you were talking. 1459 00:48:35.767 --> 00:48:38.334 Yeah. 1460 00:48:38.334 --> 00:48:40.901 Knight-- with a K- 1461 00:48:40.901 --> 00:48:43.467 Yeah. 1462 00:48:43.467 --> 00:48:46.033 --so I can talk a little bit about-- 1463 00:48:46.033 --> 00:48:48.100 So it's a play on being Sir Ian. 1464 00:48:48.100 --> 00:48:50.133 Yes, it is, and-- 1465 00:48:50.133 --> 00:48:52.167 And ''out'' is a play on being out? 1466 00:48:52.167 --> 00:48:54.200 Yes, and what the relationship is in my life 1467 00:48:54.200 --> 00:48:56.200 between being an actor and now, rather late in the 1468 00:48:56.200 --> 00:48:58.234 day, being an activist. 1469 00:48:58.234 --> 00:49:00.234 And so the show is divided, really, into two parts between 1470 00:49:00.234 --> 00:49:02.267 my ambition to be a very good actor, having a gay life in 1471 00:49:02.267 --> 00:49:04.234 private, and making no connection between the two. 1472 00:49:04.234 --> 00:49:07.267 And, and of late -- just five years ago -- beginning to see 1473 00:49:07.267 --> 00:49:13.367 that my acting, the reasons I became an actor, which were to 1474 00:49:13.367 --> 00:49:19.434 express myself in a way that I couldn't do about myself 1475 00:49:19.434 --> 00:49:21.467 personally somehow when I took on the disguise of the 1476 00:49:21.467 --> 00:49:24.501 character, I was able to be as open as everybody else -- there 1477 00:49:24.501 --> 00:49:27.534 was a, there was-- being an actor was related to the fact 1478 00:49:27.534 --> 00:49:31.601 that I have this big secret, and, and yet being someone who 1479 00:49:31.601 --> 00:49:34.634 wanted to shout about himself. 1480 00:49:34.634 --> 00:49:40.601 Now, that's absolutely reconciled, and I find myself 1481 00:49:40.601 --> 00:49:43.767 finding as much satisfaction speaking about sexuality in 1482 00:49:43.767 --> 00:49:47.834 forums like this, but also on stage in my one-person show, as 1483 00:49:47.834 --> 00:49:50.868 I ever have in disguise, playing Coriolanus 1484 00:49:50.868 --> 00:49:51.901 or Hamlet or Macbeth. 1485 00:49:51.901 --> 00:49:53.901 Well, speaking of that, where were you when 1486 00:49:53.901 --> 00:49:55.934 Stonewall happened 25 years ago? 1487 00:49:55.934 --> 00:49:57.968 I was at the Edinburgh International Festival 1488 00:49:57.968 --> 00:50:01.534 doing the first play ever written about homosexuality-- 1489 00:50:01.534 --> 00:50:03.367 Yes. 1490 00:50:03.367 --> 00:50:05.167 --Christopher Marlowe's Edward II-- 1491 00:50:05.167 --> 00:50:06.968 Yeah. 1492 00:50:06.968 --> 00:50:08.801 --in a blond wig and a huge codpiece, and a 1493 00:50:08.801 --> 00:50:09.901 busybodying Scottish official tried to get the show closed 1494 00:50:09.901 --> 00:50:11.000 down because-- 1495 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:12.067 Because men were kissing on stage. 1496 00:50:12.067 --> 00:50:13.367 Yeah. 1497 00:50:13.367 --> 00:50:14.601 In 1969. 1498 00:50:14.601 --> 00:50:15.801 And he sent the police down, and the police stayed to cheer, and 1499 00:50:15.801 --> 00:50:17.834 all that happened was that we had full houses for the rest of 1500 00:50:17.834 --> 00:50:18.868 the run. 1501 00:50:18.868 --> 00:50:21.901 But while the drag queens were throwing off with the police in 1502 00:50:21.901 --> 00:50:23.400 Greenwich Village-- 1503 00:50:23.400 --> 00:50:24.400 Yeah. 1504 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:25.400 --there were these theater queens-- 1505 00:50:25.400 --> 00:50:26.400 Now, did you take note of that, that I mean, 1506 00:50:26.400 --> 00:50:27.400 did-- 1507 00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:28.400 Not at all. 1508 00:50:28.400 --> 00:50:29.400 I knew nothing-- 1509 00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:30.400 You knew nobody-- 1510 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:31.400 -- about Stonewall for years later. 1511 00:50:31.400 --> 00:50:33.601 Yeah. 1512 00:50:33.601 --> 00:50:34.601 I, I noted in today's 1513 00:50:34.601 --> 00:50:35.601 paper, Margarethe Cammemeyer-- 1514 00:50:35.601 --> 00:50:37.367 Yeah. 1515 00:50:37.367 --> 00:50:38.367 --the heroine and perhaps the greatest woman 1516 00:50:38.367 --> 00:50:39.367 soldier in the American army-- 1517 00:50:39.367 --> 00:50:40.767 Right. 1518 00:50:40.767 --> 00:50:41.234 -- just back in service now-- 1519 00:50:41.234 --> 00:50:42.234 Yes, exactly. 1520 00:50:42.234 --> 00:50:43.234 --said that until the last few years she 1521 00:50:43.234 --> 00:50:44.234 knew nothing about Stonewall. 1522 00:50:44.234 --> 00:50:47.300 Many of us of our generation were cut off. 1523 00:50:47.300 --> 00:50:52.367 And I, I see my job within the gay rights movement being 1524 00:50:52.367 --> 00:50:56.434 nothing more than trying to alert people who are as cut off 1525 00:50:56.434 --> 00:50:59.367 as I was in the past to realize that there is 1526 00:50:59.367 --> 00:51:03.200 something going on. 1527 00:51:03.200 --> 00:51:07.033 It's generally happening in the metropolitan areas-- 1528 00:51:07.033 --> 00:51:10.868 Now, what is going on? 1529 00:51:10.868 --> 00:51:14.734 Well, what's going on is that there is an 1530 00:51:14.734 --> 00:51:17.868 ob-- it is increasingly easier for people to stick up for 1531 00:51:17.868 --> 00:51:20.968 themselves and say, ''I'm gay whether you like it or not.'' 1532 00:51:20.968 --> 00:51:23.033 It's increasingly easier in the metropolitan areas, in the big 1533 00:51:23.033 --> 00:51:25.133 cities, and it's increasingly easier throughout the world. 1534 00:51:25.133 --> 00:51:26.133 We think of setbacks and think of we're getting nowhere and, 1535 00:51:26.133 --> 00:51:31.167 and we're being attacked by our enemies, but if you look at the 1536 00:51:31.167 --> 00:51:35.300 situation globally -- which is a good thing to do during these 1537 00:51:35.300 --> 00:51:36.300 Gay Games when people have come from all over the 1538 00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:38.334 world to New York. 1539 00:51:38.334 --> 00:51:42.501 Last year, Ireland repealed every single bit of anti-gay 1540 00:51:42.501 --> 00:51:45.000 legislation that the British Empire left behind in the 1920s, 1541 00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:46.000 and they did it without a popular movement. 1542 00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:49.033 It was an initiative of one person, a senator who took his 1543 00:51:49.033 --> 00:51:52.100 case to the European court. 1544 00:51:52.100 --> 00:51:54.234 Gay marriages or partnerships are now on a, on a par with 1545 00:51:54.234 --> 00:51:56.868 straight marriages in Scandinavia-- 1546 00:51:56.868 --> 00:51:58.534 In terms of all the benefits and 1547 00:51:58.534 --> 00:52:00.167 things like that. 1548 00:52:00.167 --> 00:52:01.200 Yes. 1549 00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:02.200 In Israel, gays and lesbians openly serve in perhaps the most 1550 00:52:02.200 --> 00:52:03.634 efficient army in the world. 1551 00:52:03.634 --> 00:52:07.701 The new constitution of South Africa establishes equal rights 1552 00:52:07.701 --> 00:52:09.734 for all-- these are huge advances! 1553 00:52:09.734 --> 00:52:11.767 And you have to see them as all being connected, and there is a 1554 00:52:11.767 --> 00:52:14.801 general movement forward. 1555 00:52:14.801 --> 00:52:16.834 And I think we can take encouragement from that and the 1556 00:52:16.834 --> 00:52:20.901 inspiration for it all is that one word, ''Stonewall''. 1557 00:52:20.901 --> 00:52:22.901 What, what are the Gay Games about, and what's 1558 00:52:22.901 --> 00:52:23.968 the significance of them? 1559 00:52:23.968 --> 00:52:25.968 Because I know you are going to participate in the closing 1560 00:52:25.968 --> 00:52:28.000 ceremonies, are you not? 1561 00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:34.834 Well, I open my show by saying that I have a 1562 00:52:34.834 --> 00:52:40.968 life-long aversion to athleticism-- 1563 00:52:40.968 --> 00:52:47.033 I know. 1564 00:52:47.033 --> 00:52:53.100 When-- when-- when I was a teenager, I never 1565 00:52:53.100 --> 00:52:58.133 went through that familiar phase of 1566 00:52:58.133 --> 00:53:03.167 experimenting with athletics-- 1567 00:53:03.167 --> 00:53:04.167 Yeah. 1568 00:53:04.167 --> 00:53:05.200 I'm not an athletephobe. 1569 00:53:05.200 --> 00:53:07.200 Do you regret that at all, or-- 1570 00:53:07.200 --> 00:53:09.234 What? 1571 00:53:09.234 --> 00:53:11.234 I mean, you have-- Do you 1572 00:53:11.234 --> 00:53:13.234 regret that at all? 1573 00:53:13.234 --> 00:53:15.267 You missed the joke, Charlie, never mind. 1574 00:53:15.267 --> 00:53:17.267 Yes, I did. 1575 00:53:17.267 --> 00:53:19.267 No. 1576 00:53:19.267 --> 00:53:21.267 I, I-- the, the joy of, of these games is that quite contrary to 1577 00:53:21.267 --> 00:53:23.267 the normal American spirit, winning is not the point, and I 1578 00:53:23.267 --> 00:53:25.267 really do support that because it's not about being best -- 1579 00:53:25.267 --> 00:53:27.267 that is very much a straight concept, you know, of the world 1580 00:53:27.267 --> 00:53:29.534 -- and they've been trying-- straights have been trying to 1581 00:53:29.534 --> 00:53:31.701 tell gays that they are best and we are somehow inferior. 1582 00:53:31.701 --> 00:53:33.834 And I like the idea of people competing against themselves, 1583 00:53:33.834 --> 00:53:35.968 not against the other person, but doing it in the company of 1584 00:53:35.968 --> 00:53:38.033 other people who care as much about the same activity. 1585 00:53:38.033 --> 00:53:40.100 That's a nice metaphor to the, the world I, I enjoy living in. 1586 00:53:40.100 --> 00:53:41.100 And-- 1587 00:53:41.100 --> 00:53:42.133 But I personally don't want 1588 00:53:42.133 --> 00:53:44.167 to be a participant, though I did go and see the ice 1589 00:53:44.167 --> 00:53:45.200 skating yesterday, and to see two men dancing together in a 1590 00:53:45.200 --> 00:53:46.234 very loving and very artistic way, was-- seemed to me 1591 00:53:46.234 --> 00:53:47.234 unastonishing until I realized afterwards that those two men 1592 00:53:47.234 --> 00:53:48.234 have to rehearse in secret in Montreal because if they were 1593 00:53:48.234 --> 00:53:49.267 seen by general members of the public at their ice rink, they 1594 00:53:49.267 --> 00:53:50.267 would have things thrown at them if not be thrown off the rink. 1595 00:53:50.267 --> 00:53:50.334 That's the situation that we're, that we're constantly facing. 1596 00:53:50.334 --> 00:53:54.367 Tell me about the poem? 1597 00:53:54.367 --> 00:53:55.400 Well, A. E. 1598 00:53:55.400 --> 00:53:59.434 Housman-- we can look back and discover that there were people 1599 00:53:59.434 --> 00:54:01.467 who, were they alive today would identify themselves 1600 00:54:01.467 --> 00:54:02.501 as gay, and A.E. 1601 00:54:02.501 --> 00:54:04.968 Housman, the author of A Shropshire Lad, I suppose is one 1602 00:54:04.968 --> 00:54:05.534 of them. 1603 00:54:05.534 --> 00:54:08.567 And his direct reaction to the conviction of Oscar Wilde 100 1604 00:54:08.567 --> 00:54:12.634 years ago, being put in prison for two years for making love, 1605 00:54:12.634 --> 00:54:15.667 was to say, ''The laws of God, the laws of man, he may keep 1606 00:54:15.667 --> 00:54:17.701 that will and can. 1607 00:54:17.701 --> 00:54:18.701 Not I. 1608 00:54:18.701 --> 00:54:22.200 Let God or man decree laws for themselves and not for me. 1609 00:54:22.200 --> 00:54:25.234 And if my way is not as theirs, let them mind their own affairs. 1610 00:54:25.234 --> 00:54:28.300 Their deeds I judge and much condemn, yet when did I make 1611 00:54:28.300 --> 00:54:30.334 laws for them. 1612 00:54:30.334 --> 00:54:33.367 Please yourselves, say I and they need only 1613 00:54:33.367 --> 00:54:35.367 look the other way.'' 1614 00:54:35.367 --> 00:54:37.400 Sir Ian McKellen at-- A Knight's 1615 00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:39.434 at the Lyceum Theater. 1616 00:54:39.434 --> 00:54:41.467 How long will you be there? 1617 00:54:41.467 --> 00:54:42.501 I'm just there on Saturday for the 1618 00:54:42.501 --> 00:54:43.667 afternoon performance, then I'm going to the Gay Games final. 1619 00:54:43.667 --> 00:54:44.934 Great to see you. 1620 00:54:44.934 --> 00:54:46.367 See you, Charlie. 1621 00:54:46.367 --> 00:54:47.534 Thank you. 1622 00:54:47.534 --> 00:54:49.067 Bye bye. 1623 00:54:49.067 --> 00:54:50.701 Thank you for joining us this evening. 1624 00:54:50.701 --> 00:54:52.334 I look forward to seeing you on Monday. 1625 00:54:52.334 --> See you then.