WEBVTT

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from a historical perspective, next.

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S1

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President Obama and his Russian counterpart

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President Dmitry Medvedev signed a new strategic arms

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reduction treaty in Prague today calling for both nations

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to trim their stockpiles to 1,550 warheads each, about 30

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percent less than currently allowed.

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This would bring the tw countries arsenals to their

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lowest levels since the end of the cold war.

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The treaty still has to be ratified by lawmakers in both

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countries.

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Though the two sides disagree over the future of U.S.

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missile defense plan, Obama and Medvedev said the pact was a

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sign of improving relations.

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Our

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relationship had started to drift, making it difficult to

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cooperate on issues of common interest to our people.

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And when the United States and Russia are not able to work

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together on big issues, it's not good for either of our

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nations nor is it good for the world.

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Together we have stopped that drift, improving the benefits of

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cooperation.

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Today is an important milestone for nuclear security and

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nonproliferation and for U.S.-Russia relations.

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DMITRY MEDVEDEV, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (via translator): We

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have turned a document that in full measure maintains the

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interests of Russia and the United States and America.

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What matters most is that this is a win-win situation.

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No one stands to lose from this.

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I believe that this is both parties have won, and take into

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account this victory of ours, the entire world community has

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won.

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Joining me now is Russia's ambassador to the

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United Nations Vitaly Churkin.

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I'm pleased to have him on this important day, a good day for

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Russia.

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Yes, a good day.

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Good to be here.

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Is it a resetting of the relationship?

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Well, it's continuing resetting the

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relationship.

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But what happened today is very important from levels of course.

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It's very important for overall strategic stability.

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It's very important as a step in continuing to cut back

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nuclear weapons.

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It is very important for overall relations between our

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two countries.

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And now we are very well-positioned to continue

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dealing with a problem on nuclear proliferation.

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Of course, in May the NPT review conference which happens every

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five years is going to take place in Europe.

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So now we're well-positioned to argue that once we are

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performing according to our duties under NPT as nuclear

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powers and reducing our weapons, other members of NPT should be

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committed and strengthen their obligation to refrain from

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actions which can lead to acquiring nuclear weapons.

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You say to those countries who think they might

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want nuclear weapons no, and look at us.

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We are cutting down on ours.

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Exactly.

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But what you had to get over was the missile

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defense conflict.

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But now there is an understanding, an

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understanding that it is an important issue, that there is a

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clear connection between strategic offensive arms and

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anti-ballistic missile defenses.

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And we made it clear that should the capability of the U.S.

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anti- ballistic missile defense system change, that may be a

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reason for to us withdraw from the treaty, and the United

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States took note of that.

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So we are very open and frank with each other and this is a

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very good foundation for our relations.

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Also, as you know, as soon as he signed this,

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the president was having dinner with some of America's friends

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and allies in the region.

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He also called the president of Georgia to reassure him of U.S.

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support for Georgia.

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So I mean there's -- there are parties to be dealt with.

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Nothing new, no.

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We understand that there are certain relations between the

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United States.

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And of course the dinner with east European countries is a

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perfectly normal thing to do.

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They are our partners as well.

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We do have our own attitude to President Saakashvili of

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Georgia.

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We think he is a dangerous and unstable person.

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And of course he created that horrible conflict in the

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Caucuses two years ago.

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But I hope that those contacts between Washington and Tbilisi

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also contain some restraining element, and an element which

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would make us less concerned about the possibility of

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adventures, further adventures coming from Saakashvili.

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So you worry about further adventures, not

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whether they join NATO or not.

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This is an entirely different issue.

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In general, we have concerns about NATO expansion.

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And of course if the intention of NATO were to go to the

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Caucuses, that would be something which would create

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serious problems and something which we'll need to discuss.

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So there is a concern which is only exacerbated by the

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unpredictability and venture of Mr. Saakashvili.

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OK, the big aspect of restoring relations

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the president said when he was inaugurated, he said he wanted

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to restore a good relationship with Russia.

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Vice President Biden used the word "reset," I think.

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And this is -- puts that in play?

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I think we're on track.

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I think we're moving well.

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And another important development in Prague it has

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been announced there that President Medvedev will pay a

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visit to Washington in summer with the intent to focus on our

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economic relations.

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As you know, during the first meeting of the two presidents

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last July they set up a special presidential committee

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coordinated by Secretary Clinton and the foreign minister

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Larolf in 16 different areas of our relations.

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So the agenda has been drawn.

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Some first steps paid, but still much to be done.

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And we're keeping the momentum very well.

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Frankly, Charlie, relations between Russia and the United

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States is one of the few good news in international relations

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these days.

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So I think both sides can be proud about that.

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One part of the good news is that Russia and

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your president seem to be more open to the idea, the idea of

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sanctions against Iran as long as they were smart, he said, and

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did not hurt the Iranian people.

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Yes.

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You know, we are of course open to the idea.

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But one other thing I think common denominator we have is

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that between the United States, Russia, and other members of

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the six, we really want to have a diplomatic and political

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solution.

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So if even as we start some discussions here in New York

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about this issue of a new sanctions resolution, the doors

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are still open for negotiations to Iran.

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And we hope that we can avoid the adoption of a new

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resolution.

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So what has to happen to avoid a new

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resolution?

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Well, they have to respond positively to a

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number of proposals we have been making.

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And particularly the one thing which would be the easiest for

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them to pick up is that idea which we developed together

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with the United States, France and IAEA to have a supply of

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fuel for their research reactor, nuclear research

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reactor using a large part of the enriched uranium they are

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producing in their facility in Natanz, elevating the concern

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that this enriched uranium can be used for developing or

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building sometime down the road a nuclear weapon.

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Unfortunately, -- their response to that proposal has not been

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constructive.

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But still, the door is open.

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Is there any reason to believe that they will

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have a response that will be constructive?

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You know, at this point I think we're all

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quite discouraged.

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But they can always change their mind, because, I mean, frankly

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sanctions or no sanctions I think they are not in a winning

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situation.

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And the hope is that they will realize it at some point.

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And define not in a winning situation.

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They are not going to gain anything by

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pursuing this course, and they have much to gain by responding

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positively to this particular proposal, by responding

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positively to the larger offer of the six to discuss the

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overall concerns of Iranian side, at the same time discuss

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their nuclear program.

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That larger negotiation they have basically also shunned

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since the first of October of last year when they had a

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meeting which encouraged us to think, us meaning the six, that

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were about to start those negotiations.

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But then what transpired afterwards was very

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disappointing.

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So how do you explain that?

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You get encouraged and then disappointing.

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You get encouraged and then it's disappointing.

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Well, there is no good explanation,

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unfortunately.

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Our Iranian partners have not given us a good explanation

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about the motivation of their behavior.

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Our argument --

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What did they say when you asked them?

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Of course -- first of all I'm not sitting

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regularly at the table with them, only on occasion.

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But there are various explanations of course of what

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they are doing in terms of their right to pursue peaceful

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nuclear energy programs, and we accept that.

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But as to our concerns, concerns of Russia, concerns of the six,

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unfortunately they have not been forthcoming in their response,

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sufficiently forthcoming.

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There was an Iranian represent any Moscow two or three weeks

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ago.

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So the amount of contacts, certainly they cannot complain

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that we're not open for contacts with them.

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But there have been contacts, but the depth of the

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conversation, the constructiveness of the

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responses have not been there.

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But again, let me reiterate, the door is open.

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No matter what is happening now or what might happen in New

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York, the door for negotiations is open.

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If you were sitting down with, let's make it

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big, Ahmadinejad, what argument would you make?

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What would be your argument to him?

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Would you say to him, "Mr.

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President, I know you think you want nuclear weapons.

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However" --

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Well, let me -- I talk of course sometimes from

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time to time with my Iranian colleague here.

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I'm not going to go through details.

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But basically I try to say what I have just said very briefly,

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that there are all sorts of opportunities you have.

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That the proposals we're making, well, they have explained their

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concerns about international relations, all sorts of

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restrictions.

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They face, they feel that they are not recognizing and

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respected sufficiently, that they are not occupying tear

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place in international relations or in the region.

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And their response to them, of Russia and of the six, we're

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prepared to discuss all that.

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But we also want to have a serious conversation about

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where nuclear program is going.

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And unfortunately, they expressed readiness to discuss

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their concerns but not ours.

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And of course this is not good enough.

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You know I know nothing about this, but let me

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just make this point.

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All this stuff about their place in the community of nations and

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all of that has been said forever.

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All this stuff about recognizing the importance of

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Iran has been said forever.

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All this stuff about saying Iran is a great nation has been

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said forever.

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What you have to do is convince them that nuclear weapons are

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not good for them, and will not bring them any more prestige,

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will not bring them any advantages, and in fact will be

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a bad thing for them.

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Well, I think Charlie you are saying basically

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the same thing which I did but only more eloquently.

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But are you absolutely right.

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This is the bottom line of this entire conversation, that you

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want to have a peaceful nuclear program and you are having one.

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In fact, we have built a nuclear power plant for you.

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But if you want to develop your nuclear peaceful program,

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peaceful energy, if you want to develop economically without any

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hindrance, if you want to have a better, a higher place in

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international relations which you think you are entitled to

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or you can occupy, then if you have concerns, let's discuss

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them.

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But at the same time we have to discuss also our concerns, which

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are about your nuclear program, because your cooperation with

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IAEA has not been perfect, and there are some unanswered

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questions.

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And we believe that enriching uranium is something which is

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creating concerns, which are valid concerns, by the

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international community.

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How concerned is Russia to this idea often

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expressed in America, is that they open up and say, we want to

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give you some encouragement, and then they come back and deny

261
00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:09.200
you access of all the things that they do.

262
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And then new things are discovered that somehow it's all

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00:12:13.367 --> 00:12:17.934
about giving them time to move further along the level of

264
00:12:17.934 --> 00:12:23.033
enrichment so they have time to do what they think is necessary

265
00:12:23.033 --> 00:12:25.467
so that one day they can say we're close enough that we

266
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don't have to care what you think.

267
00:12:27.467 --> 00:12:29.467
Well, this is I think a valid concern.

268
00:12:29.467 --> 00:12:32.300
And they're latest step announcing and even starting

269
00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:35.000
enriching uranium from five percent to 20 percent, of course

270
00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:38.501
is another disconcerting element in this whole thing.

271
00:12:38.501 --> 00:12:40.934
But at the same time they are not clearly there yet.

272
00:12:40.934 --> 00:12:44.100
They are not yet at the point where they can say tomorrow

273
00:12:44.100 --> 00:12:48.300
that, or tomorrow start producing a nuclear weapon.

274
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So there is still a window of opportunity, there still time

275
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to reconsider, and there is still time to realize that they

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00:12:54.467 --> 00:12:56.901
do not have much to gain or anything to gain, in fact,

277
00:12:56.901 --> 00:13:00.868
risking a lot in terms of their national interest by pursuing

278
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this line of action.

279
00:13:02.334 --> 00:13:05.667
And so what happens if they don't listen and

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continue this line of action and sanctions don't work?

281
00:13:07.667 --> 00:13:08.667
What then?

282
00:13:08.667 --> 00:13:10.701
You know, I don't want to go too far down

283
00:13:10.701 --> 00:13:11.701
the road.

284
00:13:11.701 --> 00:13:12.701
We'll see.

285
00:13:12.701 --> 00:13:13.701
We'll see.

286
00:13:13.701 --> 00:13:15.968
Of course the prospects of a conflict are quite daunting.

287
00:13:15.968 --> 00:13:19.501
I mean a conflict in that part of the world would really

288
00:13:19.501 --> 00:13:24.200
undermine matters a lot in the broad region and

289
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:25.200
internationally.

290
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:27.267
What's important about this day is that the

291
00:13:27.267 --> 00:13:31.868
president said this stops the drift in U.S.-Russian relations.

292
00:13:31.868 --> 00:13:32.968
We're resetting it.

293
00:13:32.968 --> 00:13:33.934
We're cooperating.

294
00:13:33.934 --> 00:13:34.934
This is a big day.

295
00:13:34.934 --> 00:13:37.367
Tell me where that can go.

296
00:13:37.367 --> 00:13:41.133
What is the good news in the future about U.S.-Russian

297
00:13:41.133 --> 00:13:43.133
relations that may be beginning with this signing?

298
00:13:43.133 --> 00:13:45.133
You know, first, I think there are many

299
00:13:45.133 --> 00:13:50.167
things in the strategic area which we can do.

300
00:13:50.167 --> 00:13:54.100
I think much is still to be done in relations between Russia and

301
00:13:54.100 --> 00:13:55.100
NATO.

302
00:13:55.100 --> 00:13:57.701
And the voice of the United States and good relations

303
00:13:57.701 --> 00:14:00.968
between the United States and Russia can play an important

304
00:14:00.968 --> 00:14:01.968
role.

305
00:14:01.968 --> 00:14:04.000
We can cooperate even better in various areas.

306
00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:07.534
I think, frankly, that in the Middle East, for instance, our

307
00:14:07.534 --> 00:14:10.467
cooperation is close to perfect because we have understanding.

308
00:14:10.467 --> 00:14:13.400
We work very hard in support of Senator Mitchell.

309
00:14:13.400 --> 00:14:16.367
We use our contacts with the Arabs, Palestinians, and

310
00:14:16.367 --> 00:14:17.367
Israelis.

311
00:14:17.367 --> 00:14:19.934
We have good relations with so many actors in this.

312
00:14:19.934 --> 00:14:24.200
So there we are operating I think at a very high level of

313
00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:27.501
coordination and understanding of what we are trying to

314
00:14:27.501 --> 00:14:28.501
accomplish.

315
00:14:28.501 --> 00:14:32.033
I'm sure there may be room for even stronger cooperation on

316
00:14:32.033 --> 00:14:34.934
Afghanistan, because we have similar concerns.

317
00:14:34.934 --> 00:14:35.968
We have similar goals.

318
00:14:35.968 --> 00:14:37.968
There are some people who worry, and you and I

319
00:14:37.968 --> 00:14:44.467
have had this conversation more than once, that democracy is not

320
00:14:44.467 --> 00:14:47.234
all that it should be in Russia.

321
00:14:47.234 --> 00:14:49.801
You know, democracy is not what it should

322
00:14:49.801 --> 00:14:51.133
be, full stop.

323
00:14:51.133 --> 00:14:52.133
(LAUGHTER)

324
00:14:52.133 --> 00:14:54.133
Meaning everywhere.

325
00:14:54.133 --> 00:14:56.133
Meaning everywhere, exactly.

326
00:14:56.133 --> 00:14:57.133
OK.

327
00:14:57.133 --> 00:15:00.534
But I mean, you know, but is it trending the wrong way in

328
00:15:00.534 --> 00:15:01.534
Russia?

329
00:15:01.534 --> 00:15:03.534
No, I don't see it this way.

330
00:15:03.534 --> 00:15:06.067
I think that first of all I will be among the first, maybe

331
00:15:06.067 --> 00:15:08.534
not the first, but among the first to admit that we have

332
00:15:08.534 --> 00:15:09.567
problems.

333
00:15:09.567 --> 00:15:10.567
But --

334
00:15:10.567 --> 00:15:12.567
How would you define the problems?

335
00:15:12.567 --> 00:15:14.767
No, you know, it's -- my favorite example is a

336
00:15:14.767 --> 00:15:15.767
pendulum.

337
00:15:15.767 --> 00:15:18.868
I think this is one of the greatest rules of nature.

338
00:15:18.868 --> 00:15:22.734
And we had a situation in Russia when everybody at least

339
00:15:22.734 --> 00:15:26.601
in this country was saying you have such great democracy and

340
00:15:26.601 --> 00:15:28.367
the country was falling apart.

341
00:15:28.367 --> 00:15:31.534
Now we have a political system which is working.

342
00:15:31.534 --> 00:15:32.601
OK.

343
00:15:32.601 --> 00:15:36.100
If people are complaining that there is not

344
00:15:36.100 --> 00:15:39.133
enough freedom of expression, then we should be careful about

345
00:15:39.133 --> 00:15:41.133
it, we should be looking into it.

346
00:15:41.133 --> 00:15:43.234
We are cooperating with various international bodies who are

347
00:15:43.234 --> 00:15:46.334
like about democracy and freedom of speech and freedom of the

348
00:15:46.334 --> 00:15:47.767
media, things like that.

349
00:15:47.767 --> 00:15:48.901
So we have, you know --

350
00:15:48.901 --> 00:15:51.567
You have room to improve, but you're working on

351
00:15:51.567 --> 00:15:52.567
it.

352
00:15:52.567 --> 00:15:55.234
Absolutely, we're working on it.

353
00:15:55.234 --> 00:15:57.334
Because it not just me raising this question,

354
00:15:57.334 --> 00:15:59.334
it is also Mikhail Gorbachev recently raised the question.

355
00:15:59.334 --> 00:16:01.434
So he is a very respected voice.

356
00:16:01.434 --> 00:16:03.868
I didn't hear what he had to say, but I would not be

357
00:16:03.868 --> 00:16:05.901
surprised if you tell me that there were some words of

358
00:16:05.901 --> 00:16:06.901
criticism.

359
00:16:06.901 --> 00:16:07.901
There was.

360
00:16:07.901 --> 00:16:09.934
Because it's also if you look into the

361
00:16:09.934 --> 00:16:11.901
regions where most of the complaints come about, the

362
00:16:11.901 --> 00:16:14.968
regions are not only about the regions, but that's also a very

363
00:16:14.968 --> 00:16:15.968
political environment.

364
00:16:15.968 --> 00:16:17.968
It's a democracy which is not perfect.

365
00:16:17.968 --> 00:16:20.367
So a politician who is trying to hold to power in certain

366
00:16:20.367 --> 00:16:22.934
region, he may not be very pleased if he is sort of

367
00:16:22.934 --> 00:16:24.934
bitterly criticized by the media.

368
00:16:24.934 --> 00:16:28.234
This is a political -- in the United States, you have a very

369
00:16:28.234 --> 00:16:29.834
tough political environment.

370
00:16:29.834 --> 00:16:32.067
In Russia as a democracy, there is also a tough political

371
00:16:32.067 --> 00:16:33.067
environment.

372
00:16:33.067 --> 00:16:36.133
And sometimes the rules of combat in that political

373
00:16:36.133 --> 00:16:38.133
environment are bent and are not perfect.

374
00:16:38.133 --> 00:16:41.434
What is the Russian relationship with China?

375
00:16:41.434 --> 00:16:43.467
Excellent, excellent.

376
00:16:43.467 --> 00:16:46.367
Do you have influence with China on the

377
00:16:46.367 --> 00:16:48.367
question of sanctions against Iran?

378
00:16:48.367 --> 00:16:51.000
You know, we consult, but we work as a group,

379
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:52.167
the group of the six.

380
00:16:52.167 --> 00:16:55.667
We share our views, and in some areas our views coincide with

381
00:16:55.667 --> 00:16:57.667
our Chinese friends and partners.

382
00:16:57.667 --> 00:17:00.133
But we work as a group of the six.

383
00:17:00.133 --> 00:17:02.133
Here is the conventional wisdom.

384
00:17:02.133 --> 00:17:03.133
You have heard this before.

385
00:17:03.133 --> 00:17:05.133
If Russia is on board, China will come on board, and at least

386
00:17:05.133 --> 00:17:07.133
they will simply abstain, they will not veto.

387
00:17:07.133 --> 00:17:09.934
Well, listen, and I are very close contact

388
00:17:09.934 --> 00:17:11.567
with our Chinese colleagues.

389
00:17:11.567 --> 00:17:13.801
China is a sovereign country.

390
00:17:13.801 --> 00:17:15.100
Russia is a sovereign country.

391
00:17:15.100 --> 00:17:16.467
China is a sovereign country.

392
00:17:16.467 --> 00:17:18.534
I don't understand the relevance of

393
00:17:18.534 --> 00:17:19.534
that.

394
00:17:19.534 --> 00:17:21.534
The relevance is that they have their own

395
00:17:21.534 --> 00:17:22.534
mind.

396
00:17:22.534 --> 00:17:24.534
They know what is good for their country.

397
00:17:24.534 --> 00:17:26.534
We know what is good for our country.

398
00:17:26.534 --> 00:17:27.534
We compare notes.

399
00:17:27.534 --> 00:17:28.534
We coordinate.

400
00:17:28.534 --> 00:17:29.501
We are partners.

401
00:17:29.501 --> 00:17:32.501
But it is not that China is going to do what Russia is going

402
00:17:32.501 --> 00:17:33.501
to do.

403
00:17:33.501 --> 00:17:37.167
Is it good for China to have sanction against

404
00:17:37.167 --> 00:17:39.167
Iran or not because of their economic interests?

405
00:17:39.167 --> 00:17:41.167
It's bad for everybody.

406
00:17:41.167 --> 00:17:42.167
It's bad for Germany.

407
00:17:42.167 --> 00:17:43.167
It's bad for France and U.K.

408
00:17:43.167 --> 00:17:44.167
It's not maybe so bad for U.S.

409
00:17:44.167 --> 00:17:46.467
because you haven't had much relations with Iran anyway for

410
00:17:46.467 --> 00:17:47.467
the past 30 years.

411
00:17:47.467 --> 00:17:49.467
So you are saying if there are sanctions against

412
00:17:49.467 --> 00:17:52.234
Iran a lot of countries will suffer, not just China but also

413
00:17:52.234 --> 00:17:54.234
Germany and other countries in Europe.

414
00:17:54.234 --> 00:17:55.234
Absolutely.

415
00:17:55.234 --> 00:17:58.467
In fact, if my figures are correct, in the six, Russia is

416
00:17:58.467 --> 00:18:00.467
number three economically in terms of the volume of

417
00:18:00.467 --> 00:18:02.467
relations -- China, Germany and Russia.

418
00:18:02.467 --> 00:18:05.300
This is the kind of the level --

419
00:18:05.300 --> 00:18:08.133
then if I was putting together a sanctions

420
00:18:08.133 --> 00:18:11.200
package I would want to be sure those three countries were

421
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:12.634
involved and in agreement.

422
00:18:12.634 --> 00:18:15.067
And we are involved and we are trying to

423
00:18:15.067 --> 00:18:17.067
reach agreement on what we want to did about it.

424
00:18:17.067 --> 00:18:19.067
How do you make smart sanctions?

425
00:18:19.067 --> 00:18:21.067
Smart sanctions are sanctions which are

426
00:18:21.067 --> 00:18:24.200
targeted, which do not hamper normal economic relations, which

427
00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.267
do not undermine the livelihood of people in Iran.

428
00:18:27.267 --> 00:18:30.734
But at the same time which would make it difficult for Iran to

429
00:18:30.734 --> 00:18:34.467
pursue a nuclear program which would be posing, you know,

430
00:18:34.467 --> 00:18:36.934
raising concerns amid the international community about

431
00:18:36.934 --> 00:18:38.300
where it is going.

432
00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:41.200
And so when you hear Americans talking about

433
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.467
sanctions against the Revolutionary Guard, that's --

434
00:18:43.467 --> 00:18:45.968
This is a detail I don't want to go into.

435
00:18:45.968 --> 00:18:47.200
Why not?

436
00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:49.234
Because we are negotiating.

437
00:18:49.234 --> 00:18:51.334
What's the biggest conflict between the

438
00:18:51.334 --> 00:18:52.834
United States and Russia today?

439
00:18:52.834 --> 00:18:56.000
I don't think there are major conflicts.

440
00:18:56.000 --> 00:18:58.000
Something this big?

441
00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:00.000
There are no conflicts between Russia and the

442
00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:01.000
United States.

443
00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:02.000
There are some concerns.

444
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.000
There are some problems.

445
00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:05.000
I can mention NATO enlargement, for example, we have different

446
00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:06.000
views about it.

447
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:07.968
But I don't see any clashes of interest, really.

448
00:19:07.968 --> 00:19:09.968
Thank you for coming.

449
00:19:09.968 --> 00:19:11.000
Thank you.

450
00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:13.000
It's always good to see you.

451
00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:14.834
Good to see you.

452
00:19:14.834 --> 00:19:15.968
Back in a moment.

453
00:19:15.968 --> 00:19:17.968
Stay with us.

454
00:19:17.968 --> 00:19:21.100
E1

455
00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:21.200
S2

456
00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:23.067
President Obama's secured his first legislative

457
00:19:23.067 --> 00:19:25.901
accomplishment with the recent passage of the health care bill.

458
00:19:25.901 --> 00:19:29.300
It also earned him a place in history.

459
00:19:29.300 --> 00:19:32.334
The overhaul is the most sweeping domestic policy

460
00:19:32.334 --> 00:19:36.133
legislation in decades and it is the culmination of efforts by

461
00:19:36.133 --> 00:19:38.133
generations of Democratic leaders.

462
00:19:38.133 --> 00:19:41.267
At this historic moment we tack a look back at presidents past

463
00:19:41.267 --> 00:19:45.267
and a look ahead at President Obama's place and challenge.

464
00:19:45.267 --> 00:19:48.234
Joining me now are three presidential historians, Doris

465
00:19:48.234 --> 00:19:50.434
Kearns Goodwin, who has written about Abraham Lincoln, Lyndon

466
00:19:50.434 --> 00:19:52.434
Johnson, and now Theodore Roosevelt.

467
00:19:52.434 --> 00:19:55.100
She is now working on a biography of Teddy Roosevelt.

468
00:19:55.100 --> 00:19:57.868
Jon Meacham wrote a biography of Andrew Jackson and is now

469
00:19:57.868 --> 00:20:00.868
working on a book of President George Bush 41.

470
00:20:00.868 --> 00:20:03.801
From Austin, Texas, Douglas Brinkley, who has written about

471
00:20:03.801 --> 00:20:06.234
Teddy Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter.

472
00:20:06.234 --> 00:20:10.534
I am pleased to have all of these eminent writers on this

473
00:20:10.534 --> 00:20:11.934
television program.

474
00:20:11.934 --> 00:20:16.400
So I begin with Doris Kearns Goodwin and having her assess

475
00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:20.901
where this president is at this time and what comparisons can we

476
00:20:20.901 --> 00:20:23.300
make with other presidents.

477
00:20:23.300 --> 00:20:25.534
Well, I mean, there's no question that

478
00:20:25.534 --> 00:20:29.667
the passage of the health care has secured a police for him in

479
00:20:29.667 --> 00:20:30.667
history.

480
00:20:30.667 --> 00:20:31.667
You know, it's interesting.

481
00:20:31.667 --> 00:20:33.667
I think he always wanted something like that.

482
00:20:33.667 --> 00:20:36.868
I remember the first time I met him down in the Senate office

483
00:20:36.868 --> 00:20:40.434
building when he was still far behind Hillary Clinton.

484
00:20:40.434 --> 00:20:43.567
And he said that he used to look every now and then at the

485
00:20:43.567 --> 00:20:46.133
pictures on the wall of the various presidents.

486
00:20:46.133 --> 00:20:48.601
And he didn't want to be Millard Fillmore.

487
00:20:48.601 --> 00:20:50.601
Who would want to be Millard Fillmore.

488
00:20:50.601 --> 00:20:53.267
But even then he was thinking, if I do this, I want to use

489
00:20:53.267 --> 00:20:54.267
power for a purpose.

490
00:20:54.267 --> 00:20:56.400
So here is something that generations, as you were saying,

491
00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:58.901
since Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 have been trying to get this

492
00:20:58.901 --> 00:20:59.901
through.

493
00:20:59.901 --> 00:21:02.000
It's sort of the last big piece of the New Deal, of the

494
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.067
progressive policymaking that is now timely in place.

495
00:21:05.067 --> 00:21:08.400
I mean I keep thinking that even when Medicare was passed, old

496
00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:12.400
LBJ went back to Harry Truman's place to give him credit for his

497
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:13.901
having wanted to pass it.

498
00:21:13.901 --> 00:21:15.901
So he's got his place in history.

499
00:21:15.901 --> 00:21:16.901
And that's a big deal.

500
00:21:16.901 --> 00:21:17.968
You live through these moments.

501
00:21:17.968 --> 00:21:20.801
A lot of these characters in Congress have never seen that

502
00:21:20.801 --> 00:21:21.968
for the last 30, 40 years.

503
00:21:21.968 --> 00:21:23.968
They just go through day-by-day.

504
00:21:23.968 --> 00:21:25.968
They now know they have something they can tell their

505
00:21:25.968 --> 00:21:26.968
children.

506
00:21:26.968 --> 00:21:29.501
It also, you have written and have said, causes

507
00:21:29.501 --> 00:21:32.868
them to think and they enjoy the experience and what is said

508
00:21:32.868 --> 00:21:35.834
at the moment, so they want to reach for big ideas.

509
00:21:35.834 --> 00:21:37.868
I think that's absolutely true.

510
00:21:37.868 --> 00:21:42.167
LBJ told me that after the passage of the Civil Rights Act

511
00:21:42.167 --> 00:21:44.701
it was an extraordinary feeling inside to know that he had

512
00:21:44.701 --> 00:21:46.934
changed the lives of millions of people.

513
00:21:46.934 --> 00:21:49.601
And rather than then resting on that, because people said to

514
00:21:49.601 --> 00:21:52.000
him, look, you've just desegregated the south.

515
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.000
Stop for a while.

516
00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.467
Let the country absorb this huge piece of legislation.

517
00:21:55.467 --> 00:21:56.467
He's like no.

518
00:21:56.467 --> 00:21:57.567
I've got to go further.

519
00:21:57.567 --> 00:21:58.667
I want voting rights.

520
00:21:58.667 --> 00:22:01.901
That's the meat in the coconut, the way he would always put it.

521
00:22:01.901 --> 00:22:07.234
But he still has to sell, he's got legislation,

522
00:22:07.234 --> 00:22:09.467
but he still has to sell it to the country, because it seems

523
00:22:09.467 --> 00:22:12.968
that the country, yet, is not in favor of the level.

524
00:22:12.968 --> 00:22:15.133
I couldn't agree more, Charlie.

525
00:22:15.133 --> 00:22:18.868
Right now I think the battle to sell it to the country is as

526
00:22:18.868 --> 00:22:21.334
important and perhaps even more important than the battle of

527
00:22:21.334 --> 00:22:22.501
getting past.

528
00:22:22.501 --> 00:22:25.267
Unlike these other -- Social Security and Medicare, there was

529
00:22:25.267 --> 00:22:28.133
questions about it, but nothing like the rumbles that we're

530
00:22:28.133 --> 00:22:29.133
seeing now.

531
00:22:29.133 --> 00:22:31.868
And we were talking before about Lincoln having made this

532
00:22:31.868 --> 00:22:34.868
great statement at one time that public sentiment -- with

533
00:22:34.868 --> 00:22:36.868
public sentiment anything is possible.

534
00:22:36.868 --> 00:22:38.234
Without it nothing is possible.

535
00:22:38.234 --> 00:22:40.901
He who molds the sentiment of the countries is even more

536
00:22:40.901 --> 00:22:42.901
important that he who passes laws.

537
00:22:42.901 --> 00:22:43.901
He now has a battle.

538
00:22:43.901 --> 00:22:45.901
He has to go out and make people understand what is in that

539
00:22:45.901 --> 00:22:47.901
bill, why it was the right thing to do.

540
00:22:47.901 --> 00:22:50.434
Why it is not scary, why there are no death panels.

541
00:22:50.434 --> 00:22:53.000
All those things have to be told, because until he does

542
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:55.334
that it's not really in our hearts and minds.

543
00:22:55.334 --> 00:22:57.334
But it also ought to be factored into his

544
00:22:57.334 --> 00:23:00.601
leadership ability over the last, since he was inaugurated,

545
00:23:00.601 --> 00:23:03.901
why or whether he had done that as well as he had should have.

546
00:23:03.901 --> 00:23:06.701
Somehow the Republicans were better at

547
00:23:06.701 --> 00:23:09.834
the communication of what they wanted the people to think about

548
00:23:09.834 --> 00:23:11.834
the bill than the Democrats were.

549
00:23:11.834 --> 00:23:13.834
There is no question about that.

550
00:23:13.834 --> 00:23:16.434
Democrats thought in large sentences and paragraphs.

551
00:23:16.434 --> 00:23:19.167
Teddy Roosevelt once said you have to think like a poster.

552
00:23:19.167 --> 00:23:21.167
There just has to be compression.

553
00:23:21.167 --> 00:23:23.634
They never compressed what it was so that people could say

554
00:23:23.634 --> 00:23:24.868
this is what in the bill.

555
00:23:24.868 --> 00:23:26.868
Even now they are still not sure.

556
00:23:26.868 --> 00:23:28.868
So yes, that is the big bat ale head.

557
00:23:28.868 --> 00:23:30.901
With that context, Doug, what do you

558
00:23:30.901 --> 00:23:33.434
think, assessment, Barack Obama at this place?

559
00:23:33.434 --> 00:23:36.000
I agree with everything Doris said.

560
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.767
I add that we have to look at the health care bill as survival

561
00:23:39.767 --> 00:23:40.868
for Barack Obama.

562
00:23:40.868 --> 00:23:44.400
It became such an issue that if he didn't get some kind of

563
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.501
legislation passed I'm afraid his presidency would have been

564
00:23:47.501 --> 00:23:49.067
in grave problems.

565
00:23:49.067 --> 00:23:52.567
At this point it's put wind in Barack Obama's sail.

566
00:23:52.567 --> 00:23:53.467
You can even see him.

567
00:23:53.467 --> 00:23:55.934
He was aging before the passage of it.

568
00:23:55.934 --> 00:23:57.167
And he is looking younger.

569
00:23:57.167 --> 00:23:59.367
He's got a kind of clip to his walk again.

570
00:23:59.367 --> 00:24:04.667
And he's trying to avert the Gingrich revolution of 1994.

571
00:24:04.667 --> 00:24:07.167
Everything that's being done right now is in the context of

572
00:24:07.167 --> 00:24:08.167
this election year.

573
00:24:08.167 --> 00:24:11.801
And so you're seeing an Obama once he got health care passed

574
00:24:11.801 --> 00:24:14.934
doing some things that might hold the center for him or the

575
00:24:14.934 --> 00:24:16.667
Democratic Party this year.

576
00:24:16.667 --> 00:24:21.167
Example -- the offshore drilling issue, the increasing

577
00:24:21.167 --> 00:24:23.634
predator drones in Afghanistan.

578
00:24:23.634 --> 00:24:26.100
There is a lot that he's doing right now that I think is a

579
00:24:26.100 --> 00:24:31.100
little more center or center-right even than his

580
00:24:31.100 --> 00:24:35.534
philosophy of yes, we can during the campaign.

581
00:24:35.534 --> 00:24:39.067
He is still a progressive but he's becoming, he's doing a bit

582
00:24:39.067 --> 00:24:41.267
of triangulation on the side.

583
00:24:41.267 --> 00:24:45.000
And what differentiates him between FDR or Lyndon Johnson,

584
00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.767
and obviously he's part of that lineage, FDR passed Social

585
00:24:48.767 --> 00:24:49.767
Security.

586
00:24:49.767 --> 00:24:50.968
He had Hamilton Fish.

587
00:24:50.968 --> 00:24:52.934
He had bipartisan support.

588
00:24:52.934 --> 00:24:55.934
Lyndon Johnson had Everett Dirksen on that Civil Rights

589
00:24:55.934 --> 00:24:56.934
Bill.

590
00:24:56.934 --> 00:24:57.968
Obama has had nobody.

591
00:24:57.968 --> 00:25:00.968
And the radical right or conservative right of today has

592
00:25:00.968 --> 00:25:03.501
been operating as a big fist of no.

593
00:25:03.501 --> 00:25:08.234
And the fact that Obama survived that fist with health

594
00:25:08.234 --> 00:25:11.534
care is really his big political accomplishment of his

595
00:25:11.534 --> 00:25:12.767
presidency thus far.

596
00:25:12.767 --> 00:25:17.834
I agree with what you all have been saying about,

597
00:25:17.834 --> 00:25:22.167
and I have written that he should find a way to speak more

598
00:25:22.167 --> 00:25:26.501
cogently and more, to endorse his point about the poster, more

599
00:25:26.501 --> 00:25:28.701
briefly about what all this adds up to.

600
00:25:28.701 --> 00:25:31.667
This adds up to a secure middle class.

601
00:25:31.667 --> 00:25:34.801
Find something to say, because sometimes he, it is almost as

602
00:25:34.801 --> 00:25:37.300
though he is running the Brookings Institution and not

603
00:25:37.300 --> 00:25:38.300
the country.

604
00:25:38.300 --> 00:25:40.300
And there is nothing wrong with sound bites.

605
00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:48.133
"Ask not," the Sermon on the Mount was pretty brief, the

606
00:25:48.133 --> 00:25:49.133
Gettysburg address.

607
00:25:49.133 --> 00:25:51.133
The most memorable speeches in history are very short.

608
00:25:51.133 --> 00:25:53.100
We not talking about Edward Everett, you know.

609
00:25:53.100 --> 00:25:55.534
So a kind of pithiness, I think he needs to get over a kind of

610
00:25:55.534 --> 00:25:58.634
intellectual potential snobbery about being pithy.

611
00:25:58.634 --> 00:26:01.601
But all of that is commentary.

612
00:26:01.601 --> 00:26:04.067
He passed a hell of a bill here.

613
00:26:04.067 --> 00:26:09.234
And the problem he has right now, right now in the country,

614
00:26:09.234 --> 00:26:14.033
is there is an -- there are people who are making themselves

615
00:26:14.033 --> 00:26:18.300
heard who believe that this is a -- the trail of American

616
00:26:18.300 --> 00:26:20.167
values, somehow.

617
00:26:20.167 --> 00:26:24.200
They are threatening and even terrorizing lawmakers who voted

618
00:26:24.200 --> 00:26:25.234
for it.

619
00:26:25.234 --> 00:26:29.868
And they are betraying the American covenant of arguing

620
00:26:29.868 --> 00:26:33.834
civilly within the republican, lower case "r," construct.

621
00:26:33.834 --> 00:26:35.868
Speak more to that, because it is clearly we

622
00:26:35.868 --> 00:26:37.100
had this - -

623
00:26:37.100 --> 00:26:39.534
You know, there are threats against Senator

624
00:26:39.534 --> 00:26:42.167
Murray of Washington.

625
00:26:42.167 --> 00:26:45.567
There are terrible series of threatening voice-mails.

626
00:26:45.567 --> 00:26:48.400
Her life was threatened.

627
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.567
There seems to be a threat against Speaker Pelosi.

628
00:26:51.567 --> 00:26:57.167
Steve Cohen of Memphis, Congressman Cantor of Virginia.

629
00:26:57.167 --> 00:27:01.367
There is an extraordinary amount of anger, and it's beyond

630
00:27:01.367 --> 00:27:02.367
anxiety.

631
00:27:02.367 --> 00:27:03.334
It's a kind of blind anger.

632
00:27:03.334 --> 00:27:10.334
And you know, this is where analogies get very complicated,

633
00:27:10.334 --> 00:27:14.200
but remember what happened on, you know, Adlai Stevenson was

634
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:15.734
spit on in Dallas.

635
00:27:15.734 --> 00:27:19.834
Lady Bird Johnson was jostled.

636
00:27:19.834 --> 00:27:24.968
There have been many moments of fury and anger in the country,

637
00:27:24.968 --> 00:27:30.200
but this feels a little rawer and a little rougher, and

638
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.834
therefore all the more -- all the more dangerous.

639
00:27:32.834 --> 00:27:36.200
And it is not that we've never had conflict.

640
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:39.667
It's not that there is not a legitimate case against the

641
00:27:39.667 --> 00:27:40.667
health care bill.

642
00:27:40.667 --> 00:27:41.667
This isn't about that.

643
00:27:41.667 --> 00:27:46.434
This is about people who in greater numbers than historians

644
00:27:46.434 --> 00:27:50.567
usually can summon right now are actually threatening

645
00:27:50.567 --> 00:27:56.501
lawmakers for votes that they made in the Congress on a bill

646
00:27:56.501 --> 00:28:01.100
that John Dingel, who has been in the House since 1955, said

647
00:28:01.100 --> 00:28:03.367
is to the right of where Nixon was.

648
00:28:03.367 --> 00:28:04.534
Right.

649
00:28:04.534 --> 00:28:06.934
I mean, it's still hard for me to understand that it's only

650
00:28:06.934 --> 00:28:07.934
about health care.

651
00:28:07.934 --> 00:28:08.934
It can't be.

652
00:28:08.934 --> 00:28:11.267
I mean, what could be so devastating to people about

653
00:28:11.267 --> 00:28:14.868
trying to insure people who are not insured right now, trying to

654
00:28:14.868 --> 00:28:17.601
reign in the cost, trying to have people not have preexisting

655
00:28:17.601 --> 00:28:19.000
conditions undone against them.

656
00:28:19.000 --> 00:28:21.968
It's got to be about the feeling that people have that

657
00:28:21.968 --> 00:28:25.100
somehow America is changing in ways that they don't like.

658
00:28:25.100 --> 00:28:27.100
And they've somehow fastened on this.

659
00:28:27.100 --> 00:28:30.267
I mean, prohibition, what prohibition was really about was

660
00:28:30.267 --> 00:28:32.868
that the rural people felt the cities had taken over the

661
00:28:32.868 --> 00:28:35.000
country and those horrible people are drinking in the

662
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.133
cities, so we're going stop the drinking and then we can have

663
00:28:37.133 --> 00:28:38.534
our farms back.

664
00:28:38.534 --> 00:28:41.400
Right now it's got to be about something about what's happening

665
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:42.400
in our country.

666
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:45.467
There is more people open towards gays, more people open

667
00:28:45.467 --> 00:28:48.033
towards blacks, there are more immigrants coming into the

668
00:28:48.033 --> 00:28:49.033
country.

669
00:28:49.033 --> 00:28:51.033
Whites may be in a minority at some point of view.

670
00:28:51.033 --> 00:28:53.000
And somehow they fastened on health care.

671
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:56.400
I think 50 years from now when people look back at this, it

672
00:28:56.400 --> 00:28:59.367
going to be inexplicable how this bill which is so much a

673
00:28:59.367 --> 00:29:02.801
part of -- "covenant" is a great word that you used, the

674
00:29:02.801 --> 00:29:05.667
covenant of what we owe our citizens as a collective

675
00:29:05.667 --> 00:29:07.667
responsibility, produced this extraordinary outcry.

676
00:29:07.667 --> 00:29:09.901
First off, I mean I had edited Ronald

677
00:29:09.901 --> 00:29:13.601
Reagan's diaries, and he had a passage in which he said "I had

678
00:29:13.601 --> 00:29:15.000
voted for FDR four times.

679
00:29:15.000 --> 00:29:16.968
I don't mind the New Deal.

680
00:29:16.968 --> 00:29:19.767
What I want to do is overturn the Great Society."

681
00:29:19.767 --> 00:29:22.634
And I think this battle isn't just about health care.

682
00:29:22.634 --> 00:29:24.634
That's just a piece in the game.

683
00:29:24.634 --> 00:29:27.000
It's about whether -- it's about old states rights issues.

684
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:31.634
Today a Governor McDonnell of Virginia here is talk being neo-

685
00:29:31.634 --> 00:29:32.634
Confederacy.

686
00:29:32.634 --> 00:29:35.901
I'm in Texas where Rick Perry has talked about secession.

687
00:29:35.901 --> 00:29:39.868
There is an exhaustion of the American people about the role

688
00:29:39.868 --> 00:29:43.067
of the federal government in their lives, and Ronald Reagan

689
00:29:43.067 --> 00:29:47.300
has become the spokesperson from the grave of really a

690
00:29:47.300 --> 00:29:50.968
movement, but it doesn't have the humor or the benignness of

691
00:29:50.968 --> 00:29:51.968
Reagan.

692
00:29:51.968 --> 00:29:54.901
And there isn't this sort of collegial attitude any more.

693
00:29:54.901 --> 00:29:58.834
So it's really I think a philosophical battle going on

694
00:29:58.834 --> 00:29:59.834
now.

695
00:29:59.834 --> 00:30:02.834
And to touch on something Jon said, I was surprised President

696
00:30:02.834 --> 00:30:06.667
Obama earlier hadn't packaged what he is doing in a way.

697
00:30:06.667 --> 00:30:09.434
I ,mean you did have with FDR the New Deal right out of the

698
00:30:09.434 --> 00:30:13.000
gate and Harry Truman's fair deal, or the new frontier.

699
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:18.667
It has been bailout General Motors, economic stimulus, you

700
00:30:18.667 --> 00:30:24.467
know, let's get some money to finance banks and Wall Street,

701
00:30:24.467 --> 00:30:26.400
but it hasn't been as coherent.

702
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:29.467
So there has been a kind of defensive crouch by Obama

703
00:30:29.467 --> 00:30:30.467
administration.

704
00:30:30.467 --> 00:30:33.033
They are kind of defending New Dealism and Great Society

705
00:30:33.033 --> 00:30:35.234
measures, extending it further.

706
00:30:35.234 --> 00:30:38.300
But I don't think it's been able to have the offensive

707
00:30:38.300 --> 00:30:40.834
swing, and part of that might be about race.

708
00:30:40.834 --> 00:30:44.067
Barack Obama might not want to be become the angry,

709
00:30:44.067 --> 00:30:48.534
fist-pounding president because he's worried about white middle

710
00:30:48.534 --> 00:30:52.634
class, blue-collar workers which the Democratic Party need to

711
00:30:52.634 --> 00:30:55.968
keep in places like Ohio, Pennsylvania if they are going

712
00:30:55.968 --> 00:30:59.734
to maintain a majority in Congress and the Senate and

713
00:30:59.734 --> 00:31:00.734
control the White House.

714
00:31:00.734 --> 00:31:03.934
Two things.

715
00:31:03.934 --> 00:31:06.734
I mean, the interesting thing to me is that I think Obama did

716
00:31:06.734 --> 00:31:10.767
give a New Deal, Great Society kind of speech when he called

717
00:31:10.767 --> 00:31:12.667
it "the new foundation."

718
00:31:12.667 --> 00:31:17.067
When the rain descended and the floods came and the

719
00:31:17.067 --> 00:31:22.634
winds blew and beat upon that house, it fell not, for it was

720
00:31:22.634 --> 00:31:24.400
founded upon a rock.

721
00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:26.200
It was founded upon a rock.

722
00:31:26.200 --> 00:31:29.133
But the idea behind the speech was

723
00:31:29.133 --> 00:31:31.133
really good.

724
00:31:31.133 --> 00:31:33.133
It said that in order for our house to be restructured to be

725
00:31:33.133 --> 00:31:34.400
strong for the future, we need to make progress on financial

726
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:35.767
reform, health care, education, and energy.

727
00:31:35.767 --> 00:31:37.000
It was all there.

728
00:31:37.000 --> 00:31:38.734
I think it was one of the best speeches he made.

729
00:31:38.734 --> 00:31:41.734
It is not sustainable to have an economy where in one

730
00:31:41.734 --> 00:31:46.067
year 40 percent of our corporate profits came from a

731
00:31:46.067 --> 00:31:51.534
financial sector that was based on inflated home prices, maxed

732
00:31:51.534 --> 00:31:57.300
out credit cards, overleveraged banks, and overvalued assets.

733
00:31:57.300 --> 00:32:00.667
It's not sustainable to have an economy where the incomes of the

734
00:32:00.667 --> 00:32:03.801
top one percent have skyrocketed while the typical

735
00:32:03.801 --> 00:32:07.200
working household has seen their incomes decline by nearly

736
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:08.601
$2,000.

737
00:32:08.601 --> 00:32:10.601
But then I think events overtook him, and

738
00:32:10.601 --> 00:32:12.601
he had to deal with so many things.

739
00:32:12.601 --> 00:32:14.601
And the health care thing became like a zone.

740
00:32:14.601 --> 00:32:16.601
But I also agree with what Doug said.

741
00:32:16.601 --> 00:32:19.367
To a certain extent the way you define who you are is who you

742
00:32:19.367 --> 00:32:21.234
fight against, your enemies.

743
00:32:21.234 --> 00:32:23.267
And that's what FDR was so good at.

744
00:32:23.267 --> 00:32:25.267
That is what Teddy Roosevelt was so good at.

745
00:32:25.267 --> 00:32:27.267
That is a temperamental quality.

746
00:32:27.267 --> 00:32:29.234
Are you really willing to take them on?

747
00:32:29.234 --> 00:32:31.667
When FDR got finally so furious with Alf Landon for wanting to

748
00:32:31.667 --> 00:32:34.667
reveal Social Security, he went to Madison Square Garden and

749
00:32:34.667 --> 00:32:35.968
gave my favorite speech of all.

750
00:32:35.968 --> 00:32:38.834
I can't imagine it being said today, where he said "Let it be

751
00:32:38.834 --> 00:32:40.834
said about may first administration that the forces

752
00:32:40.834 --> 00:32:42.868
of selfishness met their match.

753
00:32:42.868 --> 00:32:44.868
Let it be said of my second administration that they met

754
00:32:44.868 --> 00:32:47.400
their master." And there is thunderous applause.

755
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.434
He was taking on an intensity.

756
00:32:49.434 --> 00:32:52.067
And I think perhaps Obama will have to do that as well.

757
00:32:52.067 --> 00:32:54.067
And do you believe that the passage of

758
00:32:54.067 --> 00:32:57.067
health care and what was necessary to pass health care

759
00:32:57.067 --> 00:32:59.367
has put him in that mind-frame?

760
00:32:59.367 --> 00:33:02.701
Well, perhaps he had to do all that

761
00:33:02.701 --> 00:33:03.734
compromising to get it passed.

762
00:33:03.734 --> 00:33:06.167
But I think now on financial reform, there is no reason for

763
00:33:06.167 --> 00:33:09.434
him not to be out in front and really taking, I think, a

764
00:33:09.434 --> 00:33:10.534
strong position on that.

765
00:33:10.534 --> 00:33:13.334
Even if he lets the Republican filibuster some amendments that

766
00:33:13.334 --> 00:33:15.901
he wants to get through, then he can be the fighting president

767
00:33:15.901 --> 00:33:18.534
for that, because he is on the side of the populist anger

768
00:33:18.534 --> 00:33:19.534
there.

769
00:33:19.534 --> 00:33:21.534
And they are on the side of Wall Street.

770
00:33:21.534 --> 00:33:24.133
Do you think there is some resistance to do

771
00:33:24.133 --> 00:33:26.133
that, because, as Doug pointed out, there may be a racial

772
00:33:26.133 --> 00:33:29.267
component to it that he doesn't want --

773
00:33:29.267 --> 00:33:31.267
I don't know, to be honest.

774
00:33:31.267 --> 00:33:32.400
I don't know.

775
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:35.667
I think it doesn't fit his temperament as well.

776
00:33:35.667 --> 00:33:39.000
He wanted to come in as the conciliator.

777
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:41.067
But FDR wanted to be the conciliator too until he

778
00:33:41.067 --> 00:33:43.067
couldn't be it anymore and he finally got mad.

779
00:33:43.067 --> 00:33:45.434
So I think it takes a step toward that more fiery person.

780
00:33:45.434 --> 00:33:47.901
One of the things that worries me is beginning in

781
00:33:47.901 --> 00:33:50.567
1992 we have had three presidents for whom at least a

782
00:33:50.567 --> 00:33:55.400
vocal minority of the country has believed that they are not

783
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:58.501
legitimately holding the office.

784
00:33:58.501 --> 00:34:00.501
That was true of President Clinton.

785
00:34:00.501 --> 00:34:02.534
That drove a lot of the Clinton hatred.

786
00:34:02.534 --> 00:34:06.567
I didn't think that anybody could make their enemies more

787
00:34:06.567 --> 00:34:09.801
irrational than Bill Clinton until George W.

788
00:34:09.801 --> 00:34:10.801
Bush.

789
00:34:10.801 --> 00:34:15.501
And because of Florida in 2000, there was a great deal of that,

790
00:34:15.501 --> 00:34:19.934
all exacerbated by Iraq and the events of the first decade.

791
00:34:19.934 --> 00:34:22.734
And now you have people who don't believe the president of

792
00:34:22.734 --> 00:34:24.734
the United States was born in the United States.

793
00:34:24.734 --> 00:34:30.801
And there is a thin line here between opposition of a

794
00:34:30.801 --> 00:34:36.300
principled nature and the fringe, where, as Richard

795
00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:40.400
Hofstadter wrote in 1964 in "Harper's" magazine he wrote

796
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.501
"The Paranoid Style in American Politics." And it -- there are

797
00:34:44.501 --> 00:34:47.400
deep roots to it.

798
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:50.400
But just because something is perennial doesn't mean it's not

799
00:34:50.400 --> 00:34:51.701
important.

800
00:34:51.701 --> 00:34:55.767
And I think that historically we have to put this in context.

801
00:34:55.767 --> 00:34:59.400
But I think this is a live, important issue right now.

802
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:05.033
And if I were a Republican politician I would be speaking

803
00:35:05.033 --> 00:35:06.934
out on it.

804
00:35:06.934 --> 00:35:10.033
You know, we can disagree and we can fight about these things,

805
00:35:10.033 --> 00:35:16.901
but there has to be a kind of denunciation and clear signal

806
00:35:16.901 --> 00:35:20.667
sent that you cannot resort to violence.

807
00:35:20.667 --> 00:35:24.701
Sure, this was a close vote, you know.

808
00:35:24.701 --> 00:35:25.701
Fine.

809
00:35:25.701 --> 00:35:29.501
We can argue about the health insurance exchange.

810
00:35:29.501 --> 00:35:30.801
That's one thing.

811
00:35:30.801 --> 00:35:36.400
But there is something going on when you have this level of

812
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:41.667
explicit thread on the lives of lawmakers that you did not have

813
00:35:41.667 --> 00:35:42.968
in previous decades.

814
00:35:42.968 --> 00:35:45.901
I couldn't agree more.

815
00:35:45.901 --> 00:35:48.234
That's different.

816
00:35:48.234 --> 00:35:51.434
And there should be some camaraderie on

817
00:35:51.434 --> 00:35:54.434
the part of our public leaders to be able to speak out and

818
00:35:54.434 --> 00:35:55.834
denounce this as colleagues.

819
00:35:55.834 --> 00:35:58.200
I mean these are their colleagues that are getting

820
00:35:58.200 --> 00:35:59.200
death threats on either side.

821
00:35:59.200 --> 00:36:01.467
And there's no way that they should be able to even say I

822
00:36:01.467 --> 00:36:03.467
understand why these people are upset.

823
00:36:03.467 --> 00:36:06.167
They have to say this is unacceptable.

824
00:36:06.167 --> 00:36:07.801
This is a democracy.

825
00:36:07.801 --> 00:36:09.534
We cannot go this far.

826
00:36:09.534 --> 00:36:11.868
But unless we have that leadership from the center from

827
00:36:11.868 --> 00:36:14.834
both the party leaders, than it gives a legitimacy to these

828
00:36:14.834 --> 00:36:17.033
people to keep doing what they are doing.

829
00:36:17.033 --> 00:36:20.033
Is the media in any way fueling this, Doug?

830
00:36:20.033 --> 00:36:23.067
Yes, th media has fueled it I think by

831
00:36:23.067 --> 00:36:26.067
the advent of cable television talk shows because it always a

832
00:36:26.067 --> 00:36:27.067
food-fight.

833
00:36:27.067 --> 00:36:29.067
There is a line in the middle of the screen.

834
00:36:29.067 --> 00:36:32.634
And here's, you know, you saw it during the Swift Boat debate

835
00:36:32.634 --> 00:36:35.634
-- was John Kerry a coward in Vietnam or did John Kerry

836
00:36:35.634 --> 00:36:37.634
deserve his three purple hearts?

837
00:36:37.634 --> 00:36:38.634
Let's debate it.

838
00:36:38.634 --> 00:36:40.634
It makes for a big time wrestling dramatic television.

839
00:36:40.634 --> 00:36:42.634
And the cable industry, it churns a lot.

840
00:36:42.634 --> 00:36:44.667
A lot of people tune in on that.

841
00:36:44.667 --> 00:36:47.400
It sets a kind of tone and temper to things.

842
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.868
But I want to dissent slightly in the conversation.

843
00:36:49.868 --> 00:36:52.868
I don't feel our times right now are uniquely oppressive when

844
00:36:52.868 --> 00:36:56.033
it comes to hate and death threats.

845
00:36:56.033 --> 00:36:57.334
Just look in the 60s.

846
00:36:57.334 --> 00:37:00.734
Martin Luther King killed, Malcolm X killed, Bobby Kennedy

847
00:37:00.734 --> 00:37:01.734
killed, John F.

848
00:37:01.734 --> 00:37:02.834
Kennedy killed.

849
00:37:02.834 --> 00:37:07.734
Places like Oxford and Selma, Birmingham, these were

850
00:37:07.734 --> 00:37:10.000
battleground zones in the '60s.

851
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:12.634
The thought that you could have so many black mayors in the

852
00:37:12.634 --> 00:37:14.901
south seemed removed in the '60s.

853
00:37:14.901 --> 00:37:17.901
The fact that a Michael Steele, African- American could be head

854
00:37:17.901 --> 00:37:21.567
of the Republican party, and the fact that we have Barack Obama.

855
00:37:21.567 --> 00:37:26.000
But so I think we've got to kind of take stock and also look

856
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:29.667
at the anti, the left hatred of Richard Nixon and the things

857
00:37:29.667 --> 00:37:34.234
that were said about Nixon, and the "let's get him" by so many

858
00:37:34.234 --> 00:37:35.234
people.

859
00:37:35.234 --> 00:37:37.901
So I think we're in a danger zone right now, that the heat is

860
00:37:37.901 --> 00:37:38.901
rising.

861
00:37:38.901 --> 00:37:41.000
That there too much hate language going on out there.

862
00:37:41.000 --> 00:37:44.067
But I don't want to leap forward and say the last 30, 40

863
00:37:44.067 --> 00:37:47.834
years were a sweeter than this particular moment in time.

864
00:37:47.834 --> 00:37:50.367
It's been rough out there I think in this country,

865
00:37:50.367 --> 00:37:53.234
particularly dealing with race and issues of the federal

866
00:37:53.234 --> 00:37:56.234
government and these Great Society program, whether they

867
00:37:56.234 --> 00:37:57.367
are good or not.

868
00:37:57.367 --> 00:37:59.400
It's been a raging debate for a long time.

869
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:03.033
It just seems to be crystallizing right now because

870
00:38:03.033 --> 00:38:04.534
of the health care passage.

871
00:38:04.534 --> 00:38:07.367
Well, if it has been with us for a long time.

872
00:38:07.367 --> 00:38:09.534
What does that say about America and its instincts?

873
00:38:09.534 --> 00:38:12.234
That race is a big issue in this country is

874
00:38:12.234 --> 00:38:13.234
one thing.

875
00:38:13.234 --> 00:38:16.767
When -- you can't study the 19th or 20th century without it being

876
00:38:16.767 --> 00:38:17.901
front and center.

877
00:38:17.901 --> 00:38:21.501
There are some people, and Jon Meacham mentioned the birther

878
00:38:21.501 --> 00:38:23.734
movement, but there are some people that can't fathom the

879
00:38:23.734 --> 00:38:27.567
fact that a man famed Barack Hussein Obama is president of

880
00:38:27.567 --> 00:38:28.767
the United States.

881
00:38:28.767 --> 00:38:29.767
That's out there.

882
00:38:29.767 --> 00:38:32.434
There were many Democrats in 2000 who didn't believe Bush was

883
00:38:32.434 --> 00:38:36.000
the real president because Gore had won the popular vote.

884
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:40.434
We are deeply polarized, and the centrist politicians seemed

885
00:38:40.434 --> 00:38:43.467
to be retreating more to the left and to the right.

886
00:38:43.467 --> 00:38:47.667
Look at John McCain who was epitomized the maverick kind of

887
00:38:47.667 --> 00:38:50.434
center-right but you never knew which way he was going to

888
00:38:50.434 --> 00:38:51.434
swing.

889
00:38:51.434 --> 00:38:54.534
That seems to be a dying breed and our political culture

890
00:38:54.534 --> 00:38:58.100
because the fundraising is being ginned up on both the right and

891
00:38:58.100 --> 00:39:00.934
left by how vociferous you can attack.

892
00:39:00.934 --> 00:39:04.934
We are being dominated by fringe groups more than is

893
00:39:04.934 --> 00:39:05.934
healthy.

894
00:39:05.934 --> 00:39:10.367
And I think there is an opening for some centrist Republicans

895
00:39:10.367 --> 00:39:13.234
and Democrats to kind of step forward and try to create

896
00:39:13.234 --> 00:39:15.701
something that resembles bipartisanship.

897
00:39:15.701 --> 00:39:18.133
I think we are achieving it in foreign affairs a little bit

898
00:39:18.133 --> 00:39:19.133
right now.

899
00:39:19.133 --> 00:39:22.133
The great secretary of defense, I think the best in American

900
00:39:22.133 --> 00:39:24.667
history, is our current Secretary of Defense Gates.

901
00:39:24.667 --> 00:39:28.133
You've got Hillary Clinton I think most people feel doing a

902
00:39:28.133 --> 00:39:30.133
pretty good job at State Department.

903
00:39:30.133 --> 00:39:33.501
There is a kind of unity on Afghanistan and Iraq, although

904
00:39:33.501 --> 00:39:36.334
some people don't like the way things are going.

905
00:39:36.334 --> 00:39:40.133
So that might be a good news thing that our country isn't

906
00:39:40.133 --> 00:39:43.634
being severed on the foreign policy issues as much as the

907
00:39:43.634 --> 00:39:44.634
domestic policy ones.

908
00:39:44.634 --> 00:39:47.100
Jon earlier mentioned Richard Hofstadter, and our mutual

909
00:39:47.100 --> 00:39:50.267
friend Arthur Schlesinger, Jr. said the point of history is

910
00:39:50.267 --> 00:39:54.367
to remind us that our present times are not uniquely

911
00:39:54.367 --> 00:39:55.868
oppressive.

912
00:39:55.868 --> 00:39:58.434
And I think that is another role history plays.

913
00:39:58.434 --> 00:40:02.667
This is not the worst of ever in American, and yet you asked

914
00:40:02.667 --> 00:40:04.667
earlier, Charlie, about the media culture.

915
00:40:04.667 --> 00:40:06.501
We hype up everything.

916
00:40:06.501 --> 00:40:07.901
There is a news alert.

917
00:40:07.901 --> 00:40:12.300
You know, turn on right now, special news, this is a crisis.

918
00:40:12.300 --> 00:40:14.334
And it starts getting people on edge.

919
00:40:14.334 --> 00:40:16.334
And I think history can give us a little bit of perspective not

920
00:40:16.334 --> 00:40:18.334
to say that these problems aren't real.

921
00:40:18.334 --> 00:40:20.334
And I'm very worried about these death threats.

922
00:40:20.334 --> 00:40:24.000
The fact that John Lewis, my hero, has to get a horrible, you

923
00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:30.334
know, all the "n" word told on his box or a congressman is

924
00:40:30.334 --> 00:40:33.868
getting spit on walking in, it's awful.

925
00:40:33.868 --> 00:40:36.968
But let's take a breath with it and not just say everything is

926
00:40:36.968 --> 00:40:39.133
the worse right now, it's the worst it's ever been.

927
00:40:39.133 --> 00:40:41.234
And I think that feeds on itself.

928
00:40:41.234 --> 00:40:44.968
And I think President Obama to his credit keeps in the Zen zone

929
00:40:44.968 --> 00:40:47.667
with things and doesn't get rattled in that kind of dramatic

930
00:40:47.667 --> 00:40:48.667
way.

931
00:40:48.667 --> 00:40:52.033
Has he been mischaracterized in terms of who

932
00:40:52.033 --> 00:40:53.267
he is politically?

933
00:40:53.267 --> 00:40:57.334
And what do we know about his attitude about change and

934
00:40:57.334 --> 00:40:58.334
transformation?

935
00:40:58.334 --> 00:41:00.834
I think he is the man who ran in the

936
00:41:00.834 --> 00:41:02.467
election and won the election.

937
00:41:02.467 --> 00:41:05.000
He hasn't shifted to the left in any way.

938
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:09.734
He ran as a sort of, maybe centrist-leftist, who wanted to

939
00:41:09.734 --> 00:41:12.467
use pot percent of government to make life better for people

940
00:41:12.467 --> 00:41:14.467
to say it in the most positive way.

941
00:41:14.467 --> 00:41:16.467
People might not agree with that.

942
00:41:16.467 --> 00:41:19.067
But it's not sharing the wealth, or is it.

943
00:41:19.067 --> 00:41:21.167
This whole business of part of the rhetoric today, sharing the

944
00:41:21.167 --> 00:41:24.000
wealth, is having the government take over private

945
00:41:24.000 --> 00:41:25.000
sector --

946
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:27.000
None of that.

947
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:29.033
What is striking to me today is that I can understand how in

948
00:41:29.033 --> 00:41:32.434
1948, for example, when they argued that Truman's health care

949
00:41:32.434 --> 00:41:34.801
was socialist, that he had gotten it from the Moscow

950
00:41:34.801 --> 00:41:37.601
constitution, in fact, it would be scary, because what is

951
00:41:37.601 --> 00:41:39.567
happening in those days in 1950s.

952
00:41:39.567 --> 00:41:42.234
We're hiding under our desks worrying about the Soviet Union.

953
00:41:42.234 --> 00:41:43.534
They may have a nuclear bomb.

954
00:41:43.534 --> 00:41:45.000
That is not there.

955
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:47.267
Who are we are afraid of now?

956
00:41:47.267 --> 00:41:49.100
France, England, Germany.

957
00:41:49.100 --> 00:41:50.100
I mean.

958
00:41:50.100 --> 00:41:52.100
I'm afraid of France.

959
00:41:52.100 --> 00:41:53.100
(LAUGHTER)

960
00:41:53.100 --> 00:41:54.100
No, that's wrong.

961
00:41:54.100 --> 00:41:55.100
That's another conversation.

962
00:41:55.100 --> 00:41:57.667
But we alluded a moment ago to something very important, which

963
00:41:57.667 --> 00:42:03.801
is a big generational issue here.

964
00:42:03.801 --> 00:42:06.434
There was a sign in one of those tea party rallies a couple

965
00:42:06.434 --> 00:42:09.067
weeks ago talking about Obama, the communist this.

966
00:42:09.067 --> 00:42:13.567
And I wonder how many voters under 30 really, for whom the

967
00:42:13.567 --> 00:42:17.834
word, the epitaph "communist," that just doesn't resonate.

968
00:42:17.834 --> 00:42:23.701
To some extent, I think, people with an investment in conflict,

969
00:42:23.701 --> 00:42:29.634
which is to say extremist on both sides, want to have this

970
00:42:29.634 --> 00:42:34.868
kind of rhetorical paintball, and it's a danger.

971
00:42:34.868 --> 00:42:39.968
I think that he is arguably one of the least radical

972
00:42:39.968 --> 00:42:40.968
presidents.

973
00:42:40.968 --> 00:42:43.501
What he wants to do for the country, is it

974
00:42:43.501 --> 00:42:44.501
radical?

975
00:42:44.501 --> 00:42:47.434
Is it how do -- or is it center-left?

976
00:42:47.434 --> 00:42:49.701
I think it's centrist, I really do.

977
00:42:49.701 --> 00:42:54.100
And my view is that right and left at this point have to

978
00:42:54.100 --> 00:42:56.601
undergo a significant redefinition, because when you

979
00:42:56.601 --> 00:42:59.467
have a Republican president who basically nationalizes the

980
00:42:59.467 --> 00:43:02.534
banks in 2008 and you have a Democratic president who for all

981
00:43:02.534 --> 00:43:04.601
the historic things we're talking about not mandated

982
00:43:04.601 --> 00:43:06.834
universal health care, who doesn't want to do anything

983
00:43:06.834 --> 00:43:10.100
about guns, and who is against gay marriage, what are we

984
00:43:10.100 --> 00:43:11.100
talking about?

985
00:43:11.100 --> 00:43:12.100
Doug?

986
00:43:12.100 --> 00:43:14.868
Well, I agree with what John just said, and I

987
00:43:14.868 --> 00:43:17.801
would add I think with the -- I just came back from Haiti and I

988
00:43:17.801 --> 00:43:19.067
was talking to people there.

989
00:43:19.067 --> 00:43:23.267
Obama all over is the world is very respected, and in that way

990
00:43:23.267 --> 00:43:26.601
he's kind of a global president, which is very unusual.

991
00:43:26.601 --> 00:43:28.033
People are cheering for him.

992
00:43:28.033 --> 00:43:31.267
And the health care debate we had in this country for a lot of

993
00:43:31.267 --> 00:43:35.434
the world they are thanking Obama for bringing America to

994
00:43:35.434 --> 00:43:37.400
that health care to more poor people.

995
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:43.334
So he has a bully pulpit internationally which is really

996
00:43:43.334 --> 00:43:46.467
quite I think unique for an American president unless it's

997
00:43:46.467 --> 00:43:47.968
FDR during World War II.

998
00:43:47.968 --> 00:43:52.133
But his bigger problem is here in these political trench

999
00:43:52.133 --> 00:43:55.267
warfare, and in an election year, everybody thought, you

1000
00:43:55.267 --> 00:43:58.767
know, how you can ward off Republican momentum that they

1001
00:43:58.767 --> 00:43:59.767
seem to be getting.

1002
00:43:59.767 --> 00:44:02.801
I think he did it very well with wing that health care bill.

1003
00:44:02.801 --> 00:44:06.801
I think that has changed the game and has put the momentum in

1004
00:44:06.801 --> 00:44:10.734
Obama's camp and sort of solidified his leadership.

1005
00:44:10.734 --> 00:44:14.133
People are look at him and America as a leader, not just a

1006
00:44:14.133 --> 00:44:18.000
guy that is getting rope-a-dope like Muhammad Ali taking all

1007
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:20.000
these punches and not swinging back.

1008
00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:21.000
He scored a knockout

1009
00:44:21.000 --> 00:44:23.000
Let's assume are you right on everything you just

1010
00:44:23.000 --> 00:44:24.000
said.

1011
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:24.367
So what does he do now?

1012
00:44:24.367 --> 00:44:26.400
Where does he take that and what does he do with it?

1013
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:27.400
Doug?

1014
00:44:27.400 --> 00:44:30.501
Well, what he is doing, Charlie, I think is

1015
00:44:30.501 --> 00:44:33.734
playing for the midterm election to not lose too many

1016
00:44:33.734 --> 00:44:37.167
Congressional seats, to kind of not have what I said before, a

1017
00:44:37.167 --> 00:44:39.167
Gingrich '94 situation.

1018
00:44:39.167 --> 00:44:42.334
Once he gets around that -- and in order to do that he's going

1019
00:44:42.334 --> 00:44:47.067
to have to tack center, as Jon said, and even center-right a

1020
00:44:47.067 --> 00:44:49.601
little and hope that his base sticks with him.

1021
00:44:49.601 --> 00:44:50.601
I think they will.

1022
00:44:50.601 --> 00:44:54.300
After the midterm election, I think you will see him do some

1023
00:44:54.300 --> 00:44:56.567
more engaging sort of left issue things.

1024
00:44:56.567 --> 00:44:59.767
I know, for example, the Interior Department has a lot

1025
00:44:59.767 --> 00:45:03.000
of environmental things on hold right now until after the

1026
00:45:03.000 --> 00:45:04.000
midterm election.

1027
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:08.200
Some of those might come forward in a year or two and you will

1028
00:45:08.200 --> 00:45:10.434
see more of the progressive Barack Obama.

1029
00:45:10.434 --> 00:45:13.167
This year he's the center, center-right politician.

1030
00:45:13.167 --> 00:45:16.367
I think one of the most important things

1031
00:45:16.367 --> 00:45:20.968
he has to do is three big pieces of legislation were

1032
00:45:20.968 --> 00:45:24.934
passed -- the stimulus bill, the bank bill, and the health

1033
00:45:24.934 --> 00:45:25.901
care.

1034
00:45:25.901 --> 00:45:28.267
He's got to explain to the country what were in those

1035
00:45:28.267 --> 00:45:29.767
legislations.

1036
00:45:29.767 --> 00:45:33.167
There are 90 percent of the people say they don't even know

1037
00:45:33.167 --> 00:45:34.434
what was in the stimulus bill.

1038
00:45:34.434 --> 00:45:36.434
There are a lot of good things in that bill.

1039
00:45:36.434 --> 00:45:38.467
Is that a failure of leadership?

1040
00:45:38.467 --> 00:45:40.467
Yes, of course it is.

1041
00:45:40.467 --> 00:45:42.467
That is why -- I'm saying that is why he has to do that.

1042
00:45:42.467 --> 00:45:44.467
That should be his primary task right now.

1043
00:45:44.467 --> 00:45:46.467
Even the bank bill, large percentages of it has been paid

1044
00:45:46.467 --> 00:45:48.467
back already with interest to the taxpayers.

1045
00:45:48.467 --> 00:45:50.467
What has happened that might have made him at a

1046
00:45:50.467 --> 00:45:52.467
better place, and passing health care was a good place, in

1047
00:45:52.467 --> 00:45:54.467
terms of the narrative, in terms of weaving together, in

1048
00:45:54.467 --> 00:45:56.467
terms of explaining so that he could have thwarted some of

1049
00:45:56.467 --> 00:45:58.467
what we have just recognized as the tide of opposition or at

1050
00:45:58.467 --> 00:45:59.200
least a level of opposition?

1051
00:45:59.200 --> 00:46:01.167
It's a terrific question.

1052
00:46:01.167 --> 00:46:03.167
And it's the central mystery to me is how does a man who thinks

1053
00:46:03.167 --> 00:46:05.267
of himself first and foremost not as a lawyer or professor

1054
00:46:05.267 --> 00:46:08.934
but as a writer, he talks about that, who knows, who has a

1055
00:46:08.934 --> 00:46:11.400
writer's sensibility of being in a moment and yet out of it,

1056
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:17.501
observing it, how did he let this communications gap,

1057
00:46:17.501 --> 00:46:20.167
inspiration gap, take place.

1058
00:46:20.167 --> 00:46:23.667
I think on a human level, which is what we all do, you have to

1059
00:46:23.667 --> 00:46:25.667
think, all right, well, what are things like really behind

1060
00:46:25.667 --> 00:46:26.767
that desk.

1061
00:46:26.767 --> 00:46:29.901
Let's remember, he doesn't get credit for what didn't happen,

1062
00:46:29.901 --> 00:46:31.067
which is a depression.

1063
00:46:31.067 --> 00:46:34.567
You know the market is already discounted for that.

1064
00:46:34.567 --> 00:46:36.901
The political market discounted for that.

1065
00:46:36.901 --> 00:46:40.901
He comes out of this moment of epic crisis.

1066
00:46:40.901 --> 00:46:41.968
He gets us through it.

1067
00:46:41.968 --> 00:46:45.133
If he hadn't gotten us through it, we would be in a very

1068
00:46:45.133 --> 00:46:46.467
different place.

1069
00:46:46.467 --> 00:46:50.934
And I think he started thinking, and he does think in paragraphs.

1070
00:46:50.934 --> 00:46:54.334
When you talk to him it is a little like Bill Clinton.

1071
00:46:54.334 --> 00:46:58.167
I mean, it's just these fully-formed thoughts, sort of

1072
00:46:58.167 --> 00:46:59.167
scarily so.

1073
00:46:59.167 --> 00:47:05.000
And I think that there was, to use President Clinton again for

1074
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.868
a second, there was also a kind of empathy gap.

1075
00:47:08.868 --> 00:47:11.801
Bill Clinton said recently that everybody knows can give a

1076
00:47:11.801 --> 00:47:12.801
pretty speech.

1077
00:47:12.801 --> 00:47:16.934
But he has to signal that he understands their anxiety, their

1078
00:47:16.934 --> 00:47:17.901
concerns.

1079
00:47:17.901 --> 00:47:20.467
Remember this is a matter of two memoirs before he was 40, or

1080
00:47:20.467 --> 00:47:21.834
45.

1081
00:47:21.834 --> 00:47:25.367
So he clearly understands the role of narrative.

1082
00:47:25.367 --> 00:47:27.501
He lost track of it in summer, the summer.

1083
00:47:27.501 --> 00:47:30.467
And that's, when history of all this is written, what happened

1084
00:47:30.467 --> 00:47:34.267
in July and August when the town halls happened, that's when he

1085
00:47:34.267 --> 00:47:35.267
--

1086
00:47:35.267 --> 00:47:37.267
Let me say one quick thing about Reagan, which Doug

1087
00:47:37.267 --> 00:47:38.267
mentioned.

1088
00:47:38.267 --> 00:47:43.734
If you, according to Gallop, he, his approval rating average

1089
00:47:43.734 --> 00:47:47.868
for the first year was exactly the same as Reagan's, Obama.

1090
00:47:47.868 --> 00:47:50.100
Obama and Reagan.

1091
00:47:50.100 --> 00:47:52.167
Obama and Reagan were the same, 1981 and 2009.

1092
00:47:52.167 --> 00:47:55.200
And to some extent you can argue, perhaps that health care

1093
00:47:55.200 --> 00:48:03.467
is Obama's Camp Ross, the tax cut that set in motion a lot of

1094
00:48:03.467 --> 00:48:06.601
the Reagan economic plan, although then he raised a bunch

1095
00:48:06.601 --> 00:48:07.567
of taxes.

1096
00:48:07.567 --> 00:48:14.434
But recession, difficulty, tough midterm, but a recovery in

1097
00:48:14.434 --> 00:48:16.734
the third year that led to a big win.

1098
00:48:16.734 --> 00:48:18.734
If I were betting that is what I would say is going to happen to

1099
00:48:18.734 --> 00:48:24.834
Obama, is that he will get the wind of a recovery, get kicked

1100
00:48:24.834 --> 00:48:27.300
around in the midterm, because you always get kicked around in

1101
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:28.300
the midterm.

1102
00:48:28.300 --> 00:48:32.901
And that he also -- remember, this is a man who loved, like

1103
00:48:32.901 --> 00:48:35.234
all of us, loves winning.

1104
00:48:35.234 --> 00:48:40.300
And he feels rightly that he just did something that nobody

1105
00:48:40.300 --> 00:48:43.167
else did, which is the way he got the nomination.

1106
00:48:43.167 --> 00:48:46.133
You know, it is the way he went from being a state senator to

1107
00:48:46.133 --> 00:48:49.100
president of the United States in four years.

1108
00:48:49.100 --> 00:48:51.100
That's what is what I want to come to,

1109
00:48:51.100 --> 00:48:51.367
temperament.

1110
00:48:51.367 --> 00:48:53.367
He was more interested in LBJ than FDR.

1111
00:48:53.367 --> 00:48:55.367
Right, right.

1112
00:48:55.367 --> 00:48:57.367
I mean he wanted to learn from the past.

1113
00:48:57.367 --> 00:48:59.367
He also is a man who learns from history, which is a great

1114
00:48:59.367 --> 00:49:01.367
thing.

1115
00:49:01.367 --> 00:49:03.367
It means that are you not just starting out with nothing.

1116
00:49:03.367 --> 00:49:05.367
You have all those lessons from the past to go.

1117
00:49:05.367 --> 00:49:08.334
But I think the one thing to remember about his temperament

1118
00:49:08.334 --> 00:49:10.334
is that with all of the sturm und drang of this year, he never

1119
00:49:10.334 --> 00:49:14.334
lost, he really never lost that steady core that is him.

1120
00:49:14.334 --> 00:49:17.901
And I think the question is just at times people need to

1121
00:49:17.901 --> 00:49:19.767
feel other than the steadiness.

1122
00:49:19.767 --> 00:49:22.801
They need to feel that he, not just that he's fired up and

1123
00:49:22.801 --> 00:49:25.667
angry, but they need to feel the empathy that he has.

1124
00:49:25.667 --> 00:49:27.000
He has it as a person.

1125
00:49:27.000 --> 00:49:29.601
The weird thing is, when you meet him, I mean, he throws his

1126
00:49:29.601 --> 00:49:30.601
arms around you.

1127
00:49:30.601 --> 00:49:31.601
He is a very warm person.

1128
00:49:31.601 --> 00:49:32.601
He is not cool at all.

1129
00:49:32.601 --> 00:49:33.601
They keep saying he is cool.

1130
00:49:33.601 --> 00:49:35.601
He has never hugged me.

1131
00:49:35.601 --> 00:49:36.601
(LAUGHTER)

1132
00:49:36.601 --> 00:49:37.601
No, no.

1133
00:49:37.601 --> 00:49:38.601
I don't think he knows me.

1134
00:49:38.601 --> 00:49:39.601
I feel an empathy gap.

1135
00:49:39.601 --> 00:49:40.901
Doug, go ahead.

1136
00:49:40.901 --> 00:49:45.567
Well, I was just going to just agree with

1137
00:49:45.567 --> 00:49:46.567
what everybody is saying.

1138
00:49:46.567 --> 00:49:49.200
But I think the word "unflappable," I think Barack

1139
00:49:49.200 --> 00:49:51.200
Obama is a very unflappable figure.

1140
00:49:51.200 --> 00:49:53.801
And also his greatest accomplishment as John was

1141
00:49:53.801 --> 00:49:57.067
talking about, the books he wrote, was navigating the racial

1142
00:49:57.067 --> 00:49:59.801
divide in the United States, the white-black divide.

1143
00:49:59.801 --> 00:50:03.634
It comes out very clearly in the bridge how brilliantly he's

1144
00:50:03.634 --> 00:50:04.734
navigated that.

1145
00:50:04.734 --> 00:50:07.567
So if you can navigate that divide, the thought is you can

1146
00:50:07.567 --> 00:50:09.267
do that as president.

1147
00:50:09.267 --> 00:50:12.434
Now also, he came in after eight years of George W.

1148
00:50:12.434 --> 00:50:15.367
Bush who started using executive orders a lot.

1149
00:50:15.367 --> 00:50:17.901
And I think you saw President Obama wanting to be more

1150
00:50:17.901 --> 00:50:20.634
LBJ-like, working with Congress.

1151
00:50:20.634 --> 00:50:24.534
The problem is LBJ had 67 Democratic senators.

1152
00:50:24.534 --> 00:50:27.834
You had a very weak, maybe 60 with Barack Obama.

1153
00:50:27.834 --> 00:50:32.801
So he wasn't really able to start this huge '09, '10 new,

1154
00:50:32.801 --> 00:50:34.133
New Deal.

1155
00:50:34.133 --> 00:50:36.701
Things like climate have gone sideways.

1156
00:50:36.701 --> 00:50:39.200
Immigration reform we don't even talk about.

1157
00:50:39.200 --> 00:50:42.033
Health care sucked all the oxygen out of the room.

1158
00:50:42.033 --> 00:50:45.167
And I think you might see more of a TR Obama.

1159
00:50:45.167 --> 00:50:46.601
I think he's capable of it.

1160
00:50:46.601 --> 00:50:49.868
We've seen some of his punches towards the right lately, but

1161
00:50:49.868 --> 00:50:51.634
not in this election year.

1162
00:50:51.634 --> 00:50:56.200
Again I think perhaps in a year or two he might, but he's

1163
00:50:56.200 --> 00:50:57.200
calculates everything.

1164
00:50:57.200 --> 00:50:59.701
First and foremost Barack Obama is a politician.

1165
00:50:59.701 --> 00:51:03.601
And we make a terrible mistake underestimating how good he is

1166
00:51:03.601 --> 00:51:05.000
at what he does.

1167
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:07.000
Exactly, well said.

1168
00:51:07.000 --> 00:51:10.634
I mean the other thing about the narrative is that the

1169
00:51:10.634 --> 00:51:13.801
narrative of the presidential campaign was he married his

1170
00:51:13.801 --> 00:51:16.100
story to America's story.

1171
00:51:16.100 --> 00:51:18.100
But that was about him and his story.

1172
00:51:18.100 --> 00:51:21.601
What he needs now, it seems to me, is to take his vision for

1173
00:51:21.601 --> 00:51:25.434
America and marry that with the American experience and then

1174
00:51:25.434 --> 00:51:26.701
become one.

1175
00:51:26.701 --> 00:51:28.200
That's well said, sir.

1176
00:51:28.200 --> 00:51:29.767
Thank you very much.

1177
00:51:29.767 --> 00:51:32.000
Thank you Doris, thank you, Doug.

1178
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:32.300
Thank you.

1179
00:51:32.300 --> 
Thank you.

1180
00:51:32.300 --> 
E2