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surprise raid on the Japanese embassy in Lima yesterday.

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Seventy-one hostages taken by the group known as Tupac Amaru,

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or MRTA, had suffered for months while negotiators tried to win

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their release.

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The siege cost 17 lives, including one of the hostages

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and all of the kidnappers.

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Joining me now Ambassador RICARDO LUNA.

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He is a career diplomat.

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He is the ambassador of Peru to the United States, a former

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ambassador to the United Nations, and he has a long

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history here in the United States-- Princeton University

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from '58 to '62, Columbia University from '62 to '64 and

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Harvard University as a fellow from 1980 to 1981.

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I'm pleased to have you here.

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Thank

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you, Charlie.

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I'm glad to come.

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Your president has been here a number of times,

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as you know.

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That's right.

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Tell me about yesterday, everything you know

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about this and-- I mean, everything was on the line.

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Lives were on the line, but a government was

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probably on the line.

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Well, I think, like in any situation of this

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sort, which is unpredictable and difficult to foresee as to the

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timing of the outcome, you had two scenarios.

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You had a conversation scenario, an earnest need to get a

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solution by peaceful means, and at the same time, you had a

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contingency plan.

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I get the feeling that after the third month, where there was

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really very little progress and very little possibility of

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breaking through along the lines of what was

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really acceptable to

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the Peruvian government, which was essentially a safe conduct

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out for the hostage takers, for the terrorists--

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Unacceptable to Fujimori to do that.

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That was acceptable, to have the hostage

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takers out.

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Oh.

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See?

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Yeah. Right.

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But not-- not to release any of the terrorists--

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Right. Right.

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--who are in prison.

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And I think that it was going just around and around and

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around in circles and, as Secretary of Defense Cohen said

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yesterday, it could have gone on for four or five

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or six months more.

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The cost on the health of the hostages themselves, on the

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government-- it's like a big stone in the shoe.

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And in the particular case, in my field, foreign policy, we

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have a very highly-respected and widely-respected young foreign

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minister, a brilliant intellectual

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who-- who is needed.

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We are in the midst of important negotiations with

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Ecuador and it

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just could not go on.

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So I guess-- I mean, I am just guessing that the president

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decided that there were no more options.

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As to the specific timing, I can't say why it took place

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yesterday or--

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Did you, sitting where you do, as the Peruvian

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ambassador to the United States, when he fired

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the interior minister-- and who was the other

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minister he-- who else--

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The head of police.

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The head of police-- when he said, ''I'm going

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to replace them,'' did that signal to you at all?

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Did you say--

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Well, it--

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--''I know my president.''

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It produced, you know, a certain antenna

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movement, but I didn't-- it didn't lead to the conclusion that

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something was going to happen.

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I felt that this-- this was the beginning of a political process

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which was linked to the crisis in the Japanese embassy, but

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that it not necessarily meant a change of approach.

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But that's-- that may be just my lack of ingenuity.

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Knowing the president, are you surprised

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that at some point he was going to say, ''I can't tolerate this

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any longer''?

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No, I'm not surprised.

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It's his nature to gamble.

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It's his nature to take serious issues in the

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agenda, the political and economic agenda of

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the country, seriously.

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In the same way that he-- he tackled and overcame the issue

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of hyperinflation and mismanagement in the economy, in

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the same way that he tackled and, I think, succeeded in

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neutralizing Shining Path and MRTA earlier on, I think this

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was a situation in which he held that-- which he felt that the--

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not just the hostages were being held hostages, but the whole

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government and the whole political and economic model.

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It has a paralyzing impact on everything.

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Well, absolutely.

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It did not paralyze the business of government, the day-to-day

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business of government, but it was like having half your mind

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paying attention to this nasty business in the Japanese

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embassy, where you know that 89-- somewhere between 85 and 90

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percent of the population, according to the polls, agree

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with the way it was being handled during these three

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months of extraordinary patience, I think, and good

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faith conversations, but at the same time, that that was-- could

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turn a corner at one point, you know, and no government can

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survive lack of confidence.

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Does this give the army more power?

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I don't really think so.

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I have heard speculation to that-- in fact, we were

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discussing it with Michael Shifter (sp?

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) from the Inter-American Dialogue on that issue.

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It's like saying that, you know, the Entebbe raid in Israel gave

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the Israeli army more power.

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This is a situation which called for armed intrusion.

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I think that this was a decision which was taken by the

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president, rather than by the army and suggested to the

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president, as some people imply or infer.

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What does it do for his

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political career in Peru?

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I think it brings it back to balance again.

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I think he has-- this is a president who was a complete

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unknown in 1990, completely unknown.

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No one knew-- I did not know his name when he was--

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An economist who had a talk show.

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Well, that's-- he had a-- he had a talk show

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which was not as much a circulation as the Charlie Rose Show.

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No.

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No, he was well-known in academic circles--

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Right.

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--but he was not a politician, and yet he won

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against a formidable candidate, who is the well-known novelist--

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Novelist--

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--Vargas-Llosa. (sp?

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) And the second time around, he won again against

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a statesman of

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the stature of Peres de Cuellar, former U.N.

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secretary general.

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So he's not there by chance.

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This is a man who has done his job by, I think, trying to

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establish the same priorities that the Peruvian people felt

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ought to be tackled and I think he did that.

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The adjustment of the political and economic climate I mentioned

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in the first five years was successful and this second

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five-year period, which is essentially aimed at

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complementing the economic adjustment by micro social

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policies, rather than macro policies, making it more

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accessible to a greater number of people, fine-tuning the

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institutions, et cetera, which were-- which were set back not

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just by the derailment of the previous decades, but also by

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the (unintelligible) coup in 1992, suddenly interrupted by a

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kind of-- you know, a situation which was similar to the

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Oklahoma bombing or to-- to the-- in a sense that it was

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really more of a terrorist and a publicity and media coup than

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a-- than a setback in terms of security.

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But it certainly revived the whole issue of security, which

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we had turned the corner on.

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You-- I remember you talking to the president--

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Yes.

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--in '94 about that.

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And so where are we now with respect to this

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particular group of terrorists?

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They're gone.

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Gone.

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They're gone.

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Their leadership is gone--

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They're--

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And the rest of them are in prison.

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The principal leader, Victor Valaya, (sp? ) is

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in prison (unintelligible).

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The second leader was Nestor Cerpa and apparently he died

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during the rescue operation.

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No, I was traveling, so I didn't see all

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the video.

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How was it that all of the-- all of the terrorists were killed?

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I don't know.

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I understand that there was one encounter with-- there were

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about 14-- 14--

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And they normally play soccer at

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this time of day.

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Well, a group of them, about eight of them, were

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playing soccer in one of the bigger reception rooms in the

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embassy and I think that they were the first to-- to be

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contacted-- I mean--

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Engaged.

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Engaged, yeah, violently, and I don't know

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whether they were immediately, you know, killed and what

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happened to them-- (crosstalk) I don't really know that we have

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any details and-- I'm sure we will have details, you know,

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some time soon, as to just exactly how-- how the fighting

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took place inside the embassy.

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I mean, you don't know whether they went in with

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orders to kill every one of them.

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No, I doubt that very much.

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I'm sure that-- I'm sure that the first concern was the safety

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of the hostages.

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Right.

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The second concern was, you

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know, their own safety.

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And then the last concern was the safety of the terrorists.

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Yeah.

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Fujimori was evidently waiting to go in because he had there--

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with his flak jacket, the pictures--

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Well--

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--seen everywhere. He's here in

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today's New York Times.

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I mean, he's been-- he's been under fire

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before, you know.

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Unfortunately, in 1995, when we had that border war with our

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neighbor, Ecuador, which I believe is now in the process of

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being solved, the conversations, he was there.

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He was-- and he got-- he was bombarded by mortar for six

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hours, seven hours.

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Yeah.

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So he's-- it's not a

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question of-- he's hands-on.

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He's interested in getting the things done.

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And there had been some criticism, obviously, for

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obvious reasons, on the security-- I don't know, police

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and intelligence--

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Right. Right.

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--as to why this could happen.

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How could it happen?

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That's right.

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How do 500 people--

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It's a question the Japanese were asking.

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Well, we were asking the

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Japanese, they were asking--

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Yeah. Right.

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--the Peruvian police, so--

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Which raises the other issue, though.

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Yes.

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And I realize that you're here and this took

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place yesterday there and there's been intense, you know--

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people have not had a chance to do all the talking, the finding

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out all the facts and they'll all be coming out day by day and

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more tonight.

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Right.

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Having said that, do-- do

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you know-- the Japanese

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said they were not advised ahead of time.

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Right.

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They're obviously not complaining loudly because

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it was so successful.

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Right.

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I assume that they-- do we know whether they

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wanted to know?

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Did they have some agreement, didn't they, that if they--

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Well, I can--

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--went in, ''We'll tell you''?

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I can tell you what I think--

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what I think is clear.

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There was an agreement in Toronto when the president of

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Peru met with the prime minister of Japan about two months ago

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and they produced a communique.

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Part of that communique, which is, obviously, in this sometimes

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convoluted diplomatic language, says that whatever action takes

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place will be under Peruvian law and the pertinent international

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agreements, which means, basically, ''We're going to take

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care of the show and apply those resolutions or treaties that

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00:10:39.100 --> 00:10:42.834
condemn terrorism or hostage taking.'' That's one element.

261
00:10:42.834 --> 00:10:46.300
The last element is-- the second element that I want to

262
00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:50.200
mention in this agreement in Toronto was that the approach

263
00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:54.067
would be peaceful until and unless the hostages were either

264
00:10:54.067 --> 00:10:58.033
hurt or ill.

265
00:10:58.033 --> 00:11:01.667
As I understand it, we had been sending a team of doctors daily

266
00:11:01.667 --> 00:11:05.400
and the hostage takers, the terrorists, suspended that and

267
00:11:05.400 --> 00:11:09.234
said that they would not accept medical visits to the hostages

268
00:11:09.234 --> 00:11:12.901
but once a week, on Saturday.

269
00:11:12.901 --> 00:11:16.434
That might have been the linchpin.

270
00:11:16.434 --> 00:11:20.033
And in that context, the room for maneuver that the president

271
00:11:20.033 --> 00:11:23.434
had, I think, was implicit in the agreement with Japan.

272
00:11:23.434 --> 00:11:26.834
Now, I understand that the president did advise literally

273
00:11:26.834 --> 00:11:29.901
minutes before-- before the action took place.

274
00:11:29.901 --> 00:11:32.767
They did try to contact on the phone Prime Minister Hashimoto.

275
00:11:32.767 --> 00:11:35.734
He was only able to reach and aide because it was

276
00:11:35.734 --> 00:11:38.534
nighttime in Japan.

277
00:11:38.534 --> 00:11:40.501
But as you're saying, they have not complained.

278
00:11:40.501 --> 00:11:42.434
I presume that had the result been more tragic or

279
00:11:42.434 --> 00:11:44.400
more bloody or--

280
00:11:44.400 --> 00:11:46.367
They would have to complain for domestic

281
00:11:46.367 --> 00:11:48.300
purposes, if nothing else.

282
00:11:48.300 --> 00:11:50.534
Well, President Fujimori is enormously popular

283
00:11:50.534 --> 00:11:52.767
in Japan, you know.

284
00:11:52.767 --> 00:11:54.934
Yeah, I know, because of

285
00:11:54.934 --> 00:11:57.267
his Japanese ancestry.

286
00:11:57.267 --> 00:12:00.167
And because he does things well.

287
00:12:00.167 --> 00:12:03.501
That they admire.

288
00:12:03.501 --> 00:12:06.601
Right.

289
00:12:06.601 --> 00:12:10.067
Peruvian-American relations-- how are they?

290
00:12:10.067 --> 00:12:13.167
I think they're at the best possible moment, at

291
00:12:13.167 --> 00:12:16.667
least since I've been following them.

292
00:12:16.667 --> 00:12:19.767
As you mention, I've studied here and I've been in the States

293
00:12:19.767 --> 00:12:22.601
for a while.

294
00:12:22.601 --> 00:12:25.667
The first year or so that I was in Washington,

295
00:12:25.667 --> 00:12:28.634
it was very difficult.

296
00:12:28.634 --> 00:12:31.601
It was highly charged ideologically.

297
00:12:31.601 --> 00:12:34.767
We were still suffering from the self-inflicted coup, the

298
00:12:34.767 --> 00:12:37.701
suspension of the congress.

299
00:12:37.701 --> 00:12:40.434
We had only just reelected congress.

300
00:12:40.434 --> 00:12:43.400
Since then, we've gone through a whole process of democratic

301
00:12:43.400 --> 00:12:46.367
legitimization and creation of new institutions.

302
00:12:46.367 --> 00:12:49.234
Here's my-- go ahead.

303
00:12:49.234 --> 00:12:51.901
But the question-- on that-- that, let's

304
00:12:51.901 --> 00:12:54.567
say, democracy, human rights issue is no longer part of the

305
00:12:54.567 --> 00:12:57.067
bilateral agenda, not in the sense that you're not

306
00:12:57.067 --> 00:12:59.534
interested, the U.S.

307
00:12:59.534 --> 00:13:02.400
is not interested in that issue, but it is not a

308
00:13:02.400 --> 00:13:05.601
contentious issue.

309
00:13:05.601 --> 00:13:08.601
It's an issue which engages both countries as something which is

310
00:13:08.601 --> 00:13:11.868
in the process of getting better than it was in the past.

311
00:13:11.868 --> 00:13:15.200
The other major issue, which is drugs, is, I think, an enormous

312
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.167
success story, has been for the last three years.

313
00:13:18.167 --> 00:13:20.934
We have been engaged, particularly since General

314
00:13:20.934 --> 00:13:23.501
McCaffrey took over, in what is essentially a successful

315
00:13:23.501 --> 00:13:25.934
strategy for breaking--

316
00:13:25.934 --> 00:13:28.234
Yeah.

317
00:13:28.234 --> 00:13:30.334
--breaking down the air corps (? ) and that's--

318
00:13:30.334 --> 00:13:32.400
Could I make this argument, and is--

319
00:13:32.400 --> 00:13:34.501
Yeah. Sure.

320
00:13:34.501 --> 00:13:36.567
--this on target, that for-- that

321
00:13:36.567 --> 00:13:38.667
Latin America in

322
00:13:38.667 --> 00:13:41.501
general, since the Alliance for Progress, 37 years ago, the

323
00:13:41.501 --> 00:13:44.133
beginning of the Clinton-- of the Kennedy administration-- it

324
00:13:44.133 --> 00:13:47.367
doesn't seem to Latin Americans that they have been an object of

325
00:13:47.367 --> 00:13:50.467
high priority for American foreign policy.

326
00:13:50.467 --> 00:13:53.501
Can you make that argument?

327
00:13:53.501 --> 00:13:56.267
Are you--

328
00:13:56.267 --> 00:13:58.834
With the exception of

329
00:13:58.834 --> 00:14:01.000
>>NAFTA and the Brady plan: Okay.

330
00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:03.167
--beginning to be done, at a certain point.

331
00:14:03.167 --> 00:14:05.334
So that-- that--

332
00:14:05.334 --> 00:14:07.067
But the general argument is correct.

333
00:14:07.067 --> 00:14:08.767
Yes, that's right.

334
00:14:08.767 --> 00:14:10.501
But

335
00:14:10.501 --> 00:14:12.234
>>NAFTA is: Right. When it was going. Now that it's not on fast

336
00:14:12.234 --> 00:14:13.968
track, it seems to be petering out.

337
00:14:13.968 --> 00:14:15.801
Yeah.

338
00:14:15.801 --> 00:14:17.467
But your argument-- you contention is

339
00:14:17.467 --> 00:14:19.300
correct, that it-- Latin America is not the major priority for

340
00:14:19.300 --> 00:14:21.133
the U.S.

341
00:14:21.133 --> 00:14:22.968
It should be.

342
00:14:22.968 --> 00:14:24.767
It seems to me that the U.S., as the only

343
00:14:24.767 --> 00:14:26.601
global power, has three

344
00:14:26.601 --> 00:14:28.667
areas of comparative advantage.

345
00:14:28.667 --> 00:14:31.300
One is the hemisphere.

346
00:14:31.300 --> 00:14:33.968
The other is the Atlantic union with Europe and the other is the

347
00:14:33.968 --> 00:14:36.868
Asian Pacific.

348
00:14:36.868 --> 00:14:40.133
And I think that of the three, the easiest to cohere, both

349
00:14:40.133 --> 00:14:42.901
politically and in economic terms, is the hemisphere,

350
00:14:42.901 --> 00:14:45.467
basically because during the past 30 years, before the demise

351
00:14:45.467 --> 00:14:47.934
of the Soviet and the end of the cold war, it was very unstable,

352
00:14:47.934 --> 00:14:50.267
whereas now it isn't.

353
00:14:50.267 --> 00:14:52.567
But what would you say if they would come--

354
00:14:52.567 --> 00:14:54.767
those who advise the president would say, ''Yes,

355
00:14:54.767 --> 00:14:57.434
Mr. Ambassador, we understand that and we ought to be better

356
00:14:57.434 --> 00:14:59.467
but, look, I mean, Europe is a long-time relationship of a

357
00:14:59.467 --> 00:15:01.534
shared sort of''--

358
00:15:01.534 --> 00:15:03.601
Right.

359
00:15:03.601 --> 00:15:05.634
--''tradition and everybody says that both the

360
00:15:05.634 --> 00:15:07.701
opportunity and the challenge comes from Asia, that if we

361
00:15:07.701 --> 00:15:09.601
looked to where the most competitive nation for the

362
00:15:09.601 --> 00:15:11.634
United States''--

363
00:15:11.634 --> 00:15:13.634
It's in Asia.

364
00:15:13.634 --> 00:15:15.667
It's in Asia.

365
00:15:15.667 --> 00:15:17.701
Right. But the only way you're going to

366
00:15:17.701 --> 00:15:19.701
establish a stable economic and

367
00:15:19.701 --> 00:15:22.868
political relationship with Asia is by enhancing a relationship

368
00:15:22.868 --> 00:15:25.501
with the Pacific coast countries of Latin America, in the sense

369
00:15:25.501 --> 00:15:27.734
that you triangulate with them.

370
00:15:27.734 --> 00:15:29.901
We have-- we have--

371
00:15:29.901 --> 00:15:32.033
They understand that word at the White House.

372
00:15:32.033 --> 00:15:34.133
Do they?

373
00:15:34.133 --> 00:15:35.934
Well, in any case, I think-- I'm not saying -- you know, and

374
00:15:35.934 --> 00:15:37.801
please misunderstand -- that the U.S.

375
00:15:37.801 --> 00:15:39.200
should abandon the Atlantic alliance or forget about Asia

376
00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:40.601
and just--

377
00:15:40.601 --> 00:15:41.968
Yeah.

378
00:15:41.968 --> 00:15:43.367
--and just, you know, look on South America as

379
00:15:43.367 --> 00:15:47.167
a-- as a primus inter pares. (sp?

380
00:15:47.167 --> 00:15:49.100
) Basically, what I'm saying is that this is an opportunity

381
00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:51.000
which, to a great-- to a greater or lesser

382
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:52.801
degree, Latin American

383
00:15:52.801 --> 00:15:54.601
option has been shunted to the-- to the back because--

384
00:15:54.601 --> 00:15:56.400
Right.

385
00:15:56.400 --> 00:15:58.200
--it's look at through the Central American

386
00:15:58.200 --> 00:16:00.000
prism of the 1980s--

387
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:02.300
Right. Right.

388
00:16:02.300 --> 00:16:04.367
--one -- and secondly, the danger of a

389
00:16:04.367 --> 00:16:06.667
fulcrum swing, a pendulum swing back to a sort of more popular,

390
00:16:06.667 --> 00:16:08.634
state-interventionist, leftist type of politics is always

391
00:16:08.634 --> 00:16:10.734
there, which is not the case.

392
00:16:10.734 --> 00:16:13.000
It's not the case after 1989 in most of the

393
00:16:13.000 --> 00:16:15.601
countries of South America.

394
00:16:15.601 --> 00:16:18.100
Even the left in South America is essentially market-oriented,

395
00:16:18.100 --> 00:16:20.234
essentially democratic, with all the-- all the-- you know, the

396
00:16:20.234 --> 00:16:22.467
blemishes that these experiments entail.

397
00:16:22.467 --> 00:16:24.367
Yeah.

398
00:16:24.367 --> 00:16:26.534
It's great to have you here.

399
00:16:26.534 --> 00:16:28.834
I'll read you-- this is one piece here from The New York

400
00:16:28.834 --> 00:16:31.267
Times yesterday.

401
00:16:31.267 --> 00:16:33.567
''Exactly one hour after military commandos raided the

402
00:16:33.567 --> 00:16:35.868
Japanese diplomatic residence in Lima, Peru, today and freed

403
00:16:35.868 --> 00:16:38.400
scores of hostages held by Marxist guerrillas, President

404
00:16:38.400 --> 00:16:41.167
Alberto K.

405
00:16:41.167 --> 00:16:43.767
Fujimori, clad in a bullet-proof vest, came striding into the

406
00:16:43.767 --> 00:16:46.734
compound to congratulate his troops and proclaim victory.

407
00:16:46.734 --> 00:16:49.667
In the end, Mr. Fujimori conceded nothing to guerrillas

408
00:16:49.667 --> 00:16:52.200
who had demanded the freedom of hundreds of their jailed

409
00:16:52.200 --> 00:16:54.601
comrades and reclaimed his reputation as a decisive leader

410
00:16:54.601 --> 00:16:56.901
ready, even eager to back up his will with force.'' Thank you

411
00:16:56.901 --> 00:16:58.868
very much for being here.

412
00:16:58.868 --> 00:17:00.601
Thank you very much, Charlie.

413
00:17:00.601 --> 00:17:02.400
We'll be right back.

414
00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:04.567
DONALD MARRON is here.

415
00:17:04.567 --> 00:17:07.100
He is chairman of Painewebber.

416
00:17:07.100 --> 00:17:10.467
We'll talk about Wall Street today and tomorrow.

417
00:17:10.467 --> 00:17:14.267
Also JOAN RIVERS, a remarkable story about someone who's a

418
00:17:14.267 --> 00:17:17.267
survivor and always bounces back.

419
00:17:17.267 --> 00:17:20.267
Stay with us.

420
00:17:20.267 --> 00:17:23.267
The Future of Wall Street

421
00:17:23.267 --> 00:17:26.267
The trend on Wall

422
00:17:26.267 --> 00:17:29.267
Street is towards mega-mergers,

423
00:17:29.267 --> 00:17:32.767
as firms traditionally serving institutional clients seek out

424
00:17:32.767 --> 00:17:35.901
partners who specialize in the retail market.

425
00:17:35.901 --> 00:17:38.501
In fact, the stock of DONALD MARRON's firm, Painewebber, rose

426
00:17:38.501 --> 00:17:40.934
after news of the recent acquisition by Bankers Trust of

427
00:17:40.934 --> 00:17:45.968
the brokerage firm Alex Brown. (sp?

428
00:17:45.968 --> 00:17:48.501
) Marron now contemplates the future of his company, currently

429
00:17:48.501 --> 00:17:51.534
the target for a major takeover or, in fact, perhaps someone who

430
00:17:51.534 --> 00:17:54.400
would like to take over another firm.

431
00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.901
I'm pleased to have DONALD MARRON here, a leader on Wall

432
00:17:56.901 --> 00:17:59.000
Street and a man who has an extraordinary corporate art

433
00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:00.834
collection and personal art collection and we want to talk

434
00:18:00.834 --> 00:18:04.367
about that, as well. Welcome.

435
00:18:04.367 --> 00:18:06.100
Great to have you here.

436
00:18:06.100 --> 00:18:07.667


437
00:18:07.667 --> 00:18:09.334
(unintelligible) Charlie.

438
00:18:09.334 --> 00:18:11.300
Wall Street is again up today.

439
00:18:11.300 --> 00:18:13.334
Yes.

440
00:18:13.334 --> 00:18:15.100
Tell me what you think is happening over the

441
00:18:15.100 --> 00:18:16.667
last-- oh, since we had that huge, what come called

442
00:18:16.667 --> 00:18:18.367
''correction,'' others called ''decline,'' others called

443
00:18:18.367 --> 00:18:20.133
''trend,'' whatever it was.

444
00:18:20.133 --> 00:18:21.934
That's right.

445
00:18:21.934 --> 00:18:23.801
Or ''irrational exuberance''--

446
00:18:23.801 --> 00:18:25.634
Yes.

447
00:18:25.634 --> 00:18:27.467
--some people called it.

448
00:18:27.467 --> 00:18:29.300
Seemed to be the stimulus.

449
00:18:29.300 --> 00:18:31.133
Well, clearly, no one really knows what's going

450
00:18:31.133 --> 00:18:32.968
on in the market generally, but I think what you have here is a

451
00:18:32.968 --> 00:18:35.467
long-term record of the market going up combined with a

452
00:18:35.467 --> 00:18:38.133
continuous flow of funds into the market.

453
00:18:38.133 --> 00:18:40.367
And so when you have a decline like this, there is still a huge

454
00:18:40.367 --> 00:18:42.534
inflow of money that comes back into the market.

455
00:18:42.534 --> 00:18:44.734
And in the end, more money buying than selling is what

456
00:18:44.734 --> 00:18:47.267
makes the difference.

457
00:18:47.267 --> 00:18:49.901
So we've had a couple of days of the market--

458
00:18:49.901 --> 00:18:52.133
several-- a week or so of the market going up.

459
00:18:52.133 --> 00:18:54.300
Does that indicate that whatever the correction was has taken

460
00:18:54.300 --> 00:18:56.534
place and we can now look forward to it going

461
00:18:56.534 --> 00:18:58.467
back up past 7,000?

462
00:18:58.467 --> 00:19:00.400
It's too soon to say that.

463
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:02.501
The market going up is all the very large

464
00:19:02.501 --> 00:19:04.467
companies, the big stocks.

465
00:19:04.467 --> 00:19:06.167
The smaller stocks have not gone up.

466
00:19:06.167 --> 00:19:08.300
For a market to really turn, people say it's off again, all

467
00:19:08.300 --> 00:19:10.667
stocks have to start going up.

468
00:19:10.667 --> 00:19:12.868
That hasn't happened yet.

469
00:19:12.868 --> 00:19:15.701
Yesterday on this broadcast, former secretary of

470
00:19:15.701 --> 00:19:18.667
labor Robert Reich said that Alan Greenspan is the most

471
00:19:18.667 --> 00:19:21.501
powerful man in America.

472
00:19:21.501 --> 00:19:24.400
Well, I'd say changing interest rates is

473
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:26.834
certainly the most powerful tool anyone has in America and Alan

474
00:19:26.834 --> 00:19:29.234
is the person who's the gatekeeper for that.

475
00:19:29.234 --> 00:19:31.367
So his impact on the markets is greater in the short term than

476
00:19:31.367 --> 00:19:33.467
anybody else.

477
00:19:33.467 --> 00:19:35.567
But he's basically reacting to events.

478
00:19:35.567 --> 00:19:37.367
He's reacting to the economy.

479
00:19:37.367 --> 00:19:39.601
He's reacting to the state of American business.

480
00:19:39.601 --> 00:19:41.801
He's reacting to our relationship with other

481
00:19:41.801 --> 00:19:44.400
companies in the world.

482
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:46.567
He's reacting to the dollar and the mark and the yen.

483
00:19:46.567 --> 00:19:48.467
So he's part of a very, very large stage.

484
00:19:48.467 --> 00:19:50.133
Has he done well, by your--

485
00:19:50.133 --> 00:19:51.901
He's done extremely well.

486
00:19:51.901 --> 00:19:55.567
--measure? Yeah?

487
00:19:55.567 --> 00:19:57.234
He's done extremely well.

488
00:19:57.234 --> 00:19:58.968
And you, too, would be worried about the

489
00:19:58.968 --> 00:20:00.801
''irrational exuberance'' in the market that caused him to raise

490
00:20:00.801 --> 00:20:02.634
interest rates?

491
00:20:02.634 --> 00:20:04.567
Yeah, I think you always have to be worried

492
00:20:04.567 --> 00:20:06.968
about anything that's irrational in our kind of markets.

493
00:20:06.968 --> 00:20:09.667
And really, his job is two-fold.

494
00:20:09.667 --> 00:20:11.968
One is obviously to manage interest rates and elements of

495
00:20:11.968 --> 00:20:14.434
things that drive the economy, but the rest of it is, given the

496
00:20:14.434 --> 00:20:16.567
media and television, whether he likes it or not, every word he

497
00:20:16.567 --> 00:20:18.634
says is listened to.

498
00:20:18.634 --> 00:20:20.467
So the rest of his job is to be a communicator and he does it

499
00:20:20.467 --> 00:20:22.334
very well.

500
00:20:22.334 --> 00:20:23.968
What kind of marks do you give

501
00:20:23.968 --> 00:20:25.701
the Clinton administration?

502
00:20:25.701 --> 00:20:27.501
You're a Republican, have worked for Republican presidential--

503
00:20:27.501 --> 00:20:29.200
Right.

504
00:20:29.200 --> 00:20:30.801
--candidates before, including Bob Dole.

505
00:20:30.801 --> 00:20:32.300
Well, I think-- I give the Clinton

506
00:20:32.300 --> 00:20:33.734
administration, actually, pretty good marks for the results.

507
00:20:33.734 --> 00:20:35.033
There's no doubt the results are good.

508
00:20:35.033 --> 00:20:36.701
The economy is in good shape.

509
00:20:36.701 --> 00:20:38.901
Interest rates are low.

510
00:20:38.901 --> 00:20:41.501
Inflation is low.

511
00:20:41.501 --> 00:20:43.834
And maybe more important than any of those things, American

512
00:20:43.834 --> 00:20:46.467
business has become very, very competitive-- a lot of jobs, be

513
00:20:46.467 --> 00:20:48.734
able to grow without raising prices, gaining share of foreign

514
00:20:48.734 --> 00:20:50.934
markets-- all good things.

515
00:20:50.934 --> 00:20:53.167
Now, why that all happened, of course, goes back well before

516
00:20:53.167 --> 00:20:55.334
the Clinton administration.

517
00:20:55.334 --> 00:20:57.701
It goes back to a lot of things that were done in the Bush

518
00:20:57.701 --> 00:21:00.334
administration and it goes back into one of the fundamental

519
00:21:00.334 --> 00:21:02.801
differences between the '80s and the '90s.

520
00:21:02.801 --> 00:21:05.133
The '90s are a more conservative, ''save and not

521
00:21:05.133 --> 00:21:07.367
spend'' environment and that creates a better

522
00:21:07.367 --> 00:21:09.567
climate for business.

523
00:21:09.567 --> 00:21:10.868
Bob Rubin, though,

524
00:21:10.868 --> 00:21:12.167
has a lot of confidence--

525
00:21:12.167 --> 00:21:13.434
Yeah, he does.

526
00:21:13.434 --> 00:21:14.734
--in terms of the people on Wall Street who look

527
00:21:14.734 --> 00:21:16.033
to Washington.

528
00:21:16.033 --> 00:21:18.534
Yeah. Yeah.

529
00:21:18.534 --> 00:21:19.934
Yeah, he does and he should.

530
00:21:19.934 --> 00:21:21.434
He understands markets.

531
00:21:21.434 --> 00:21:22.934
He understands our business.

532
00:21:22.934 --> 00:21:24.434
He's come to understand politics very well.

533
00:21:24.434 --> 00:21:25.934
More important than any of that, Bob is a

534
00:21:25.934 --> 00:21:27.434
smart, pragmatic person

535
00:21:27.434 --> 00:21:29.534
that has the confidence of the president of the United States.

536
00:21:29.534 --> 00:21:31.601
You're in favor of either lowering or

537
00:21:31.601 --> 00:21:33.634
eliminating capital gains?

538
00:21:33.634 --> 00:21:35.434
I think that that's an interesting thing, but

539
00:21:35.434 --> 00:21:37.300
it wouldn't be my first priority.

540
00:21:37.300 --> 00:21:39.267
What would be--

541
00:21:39.267 --> 00:21:41.234
Probably surprising, in my business.

542
00:21:41.234 --> 00:21:43.000
I'd love to see a lower and lower tax rate.

543
00:21:43.000 --> 00:21:44.801
But I haven't met very many people who say, when I'm out in

544
00:21:44.801 --> 00:21:46.634
the country, ''Boy, that's the thing that's going to''--

545
00:21:46.634 --> 00:21:48.434
I know.

546
00:21:48.434 --> 00:21:50.234
--''change my spending habits or

547
00:21:50.234 --> 00:21:52.033
my investment habits.''

548
00:21:52.033 --> 00:21:53.567
I wonder what does-- I mean, if you could take

549
00:21:53.567 --> 00:21:55.100
the pulse of the American public with respect to

550
00:21:55.100 --> 00:21:56.634
the economy, what would they say would change their spending

551
00:21:56.634 --> 00:21:58.167
habits, would cause them to-- to spend more

552
00:21:58.167 --> 00:21:59.701
money, to invest more

553
00:21:59.701 --> 00:22:01.934
money, to save more money?

554
00:22:01.934 --> 00:22:04.133
Well, let me try to answer that in a broader

555
00:22:04.133 --> 00:22:06.434
sense, if I can.

556
00:22:06.434 --> 00:22:08.434
We did a poll recently that showed a third of Americans now

557
00:22:08.434 --> 00:22:10.434
believe that they're investors.

558
00:22:10.434 --> 00:22:12.467
Now, the threshold investment in that poll isn't that high.

559
00:22:12.467 --> 00:22:14.467
It's $10,000 or more.

560
00:22:14.467 --> 00:22:16.634
But they think of themselves as an investor.

561
00:22:16.634 --> 00:22:19.234
The result of that is they listen to what's going on in

562
00:22:19.234 --> 00:22:21.434
Washington with a different ear now.

563
00:22:21.434 --> 00:22:23.601
When they hear discussions about economic issues, balancing the

564
00:22:23.601 --> 00:22:25.467
budget, interest rates, it's now got a practical

565
00:22:25.467 --> 00:22:27.734
application to them.

566
00:22:27.734 --> 00:22:30.334
That wasn't true 10 years ago, when less than 10 percent of

567
00:22:30.334 --> 00:22:32.968
Americans felt that way.

568
00:22:32.968 --> 00:22:35.467
So you have a very broad constituency for things economic

569
00:22:35.467 --> 00:22:37.734
in Washington that you didn't have before, which I think has

570
00:22:37.734 --> 00:22:40.000
already altered somewhat political rhetoric and probably

571
00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:42.501
will alter political action.

572
00:22:42.501 --> 00:22:44.734
So that's a major change.

573
00:22:44.734 --> 00:22:46.901
So the idea of balancing the budget has as much

574
00:22:46.901 --> 00:22:49.033
appeal as cutting taxes, or almost, and it wouldn't have

575
00:22:49.033 --> 00:22:51.133
been that way five years ago.

576
00:22:51.133 --> 00:22:53.200
It would not have been that way.

577
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.000
Five years go, balancing the budget was an abstraction.

578
00:22:55.000 --> 00:22:56.834
Yeah.

579
00:22:56.834 --> 00:22:58.734
''Why do I really care

580
00:22:58.734 --> 00:23:00.634
about it, in the end?

581
00:23:00.634 --> 00:23:02.334
I might say I'm for it, but there are other things that are

582
00:23:02.334 --> 00:23:04.367
really more important.'' But now they can relate it to something

583
00:23:04.367 --> 00:23:06.434
specific to them, their investments and why they are

584
00:23:06.434 --> 00:23:08.267
important to their future.

585
00:23:08.267 --> 00:23:10.167
Corporate profits continue to be-- do well,

586
00:23:10.167 --> 00:23:12.234
especially led by Microsoft and Intel.

587
00:23:12.234 --> 00:23:14.267
Right.

588
00:23:14.267 --> 00:23:16.300
We saw yesterday the Dow-Jones companies, those

589
00:23:16.300 --> 00:23:18.067
big companies--

590
00:23:18.067 --> 00:23:19.601
Right.

591
00:23:19.601 --> 00:23:21.167
--that-- like G.E. and others--

592
00:23:21.167 --> 00:23:22.701
Right.

593
00:23:22.701 --> 00:23:24.234
--doing well. Today you saw some of the-- I

594
00:23:24.234 --> 00:23:25.968
think you know this better than

595
00:23:25.968 --> 00:23:27.734
I do-- the NASDAQ companies doing well in the market today.

596
00:23:27.734 --> 00:23:29.467
Yeah.

597
00:23:29.467 --> 00:23:31.200
You believe that the picture for corporate

598
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:32.934
profits is good?

599
00:23:32.934 --> 00:23:35.000
The picture for corporate profits is good,

600
00:23:35.000 --> 00:23:36.868
partly because corporations are more efficient and therefore

601
00:23:36.868 --> 00:23:38.701
getting more out of what they do and partly because of the

602
00:23:38.701 --> 00:23:40.534
American cycle.

603
00:23:40.534 --> 00:23:42.400
This country goes through an R&D cycle and

604
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:44.234
sometimes it's more on

605
00:23:44.234 --> 00:23:47.133
the research side and sometimes it's more on the

606
00:23:47.133 --> 00:23:50.534
development side.

607
00:23:50.534 --> 00:23:53.300
We are reaping the benefits of years of research and investment

608
00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:56.033
in technology in this country, no place better seen than Intel

609
00:23:56.033 --> 00:23:58.300
and Microsoft, but applicable to every

610
00:23:58.300 --> 00:24:00.534
successful American corporation.

611
00:24:00.534 --> 00:24:03.000
How are we doing with respect to

612
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:05.334
Germany and Japan?

613
00:24:05.334 --> 00:24:07.601
Well, we're certainly doing very well.

614
00:24:07.601 --> 00:24:09.834
All the issues of the late '80s and the early '90s of ''How

615
00:24:09.834 --> 00:24:12.033
could we stop the Japanese juggernaut?''

616
00:24:12.033 --> 00:24:13.801
have been replaced with ''How can we make sure that the

617
00:24:13.801 --> 00:24:17.367
Japanese don't sink further into the sea?''

618
00:24:17.367 --> 00:24:18.968
Exactly. I mean, whatever happened

619
00:24:18.968 --> 00:24:22.100
to ''Japan, Inc.?''

620
00:24:22.100 --> 00:24:23.667
And ''Whatever happened to Japan, Inc.?' '

621
00:24:23.667 --> 00:24:25.234
Germany, when they took on rebuilding east Germany, made a

622
00:24:25.234 --> 00:24:27.601
major economic commitment, as well as a

623
00:24:27.601 --> 00:24:30.133
major political commitment.

624
00:24:30.133 --> 00:24:32.767
Probably it'll work out very well long-term, but in the

625
00:24:32.767 --> 00:24:35.434
intermediate term, which is as far as Wall Street ever goes,

626
00:24:35.434 --> 00:24:37.701
and most economists, we look very, very good in the world.

627
00:24:37.701 --> 00:24:40.033
You see now-- there's a wonderful story today

628
00:24:40.033 --> 00:24:42.300
about what's happened to tobacco companies, as a

629
00:24:42.300 --> 00:24:44.868
sector in the economy.

630
00:24:44.868 --> 00:24:47.300
I come from a tobacco state, North Carolina, where tobacco,

631
00:24:47.300 --> 00:24:50.200
because it was so much a part of the livelihood of so many

632
00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:52.834
people, had a certain place and its politics were about--

633
00:24:52.834 --> 00:24:55.033
similar to oil in Texas.

634
00:24:55.033 --> 00:24:57.200
You see today tobacco companies rushing to do something.

635
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.467
I mean, they fell out of favor.

636
00:24:59.467 --> 00:25:01.801
Right.

637
00:25:01.801 --> 00:25:04.133
Is Wall Street reacting to that?

638
00:25:04.133 --> 00:25:06.567
Oh, Wall Street is very pragmatic about most

639
00:25:06.567 --> 00:25:09.000
things and they're most pragmatic about money.

640
00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:10.901
They're looking at these companies in terms of whether or

641
00:25:10.901 --> 00:25:12.801
not these changes make them viable entities in the future.

642
00:25:12.801 --> 00:25:14.701
Wall Street likes certainties, dislikes uncertainties.

643
00:25:14.701 --> 00:25:16.601
A settlement, no matter how big, Wall Street's

644
00:25:16.601 --> 00:25:20.567
going to like that better.

645
00:25:20.567 --> 00:25:22.667
So the stock of the companies (unintelligible)

646
00:25:22.667 --> 00:25:24.801
will go up, probably, if there's a $300 billion

647
00:25:24.801 --> 00:25:26.868
settlement or something.

648
00:25:26.868 --> 00:25:28.934
Sounds like a huge sum of money.

649
00:25:28.934 --> 00:25:30.968
It depends how it's paid, over how long a time, but yes.

650
00:25:30.968 --> 00:25:33.000
And of course, they plan to pay for it, in part, by raising

651
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.033
cigarette prices and cutting advertising, which only proves

652
00:25:35.033 --> 00:25:36.801
that they're selling an addictive product because they

653
00:25:36.801 --> 00:25:38.667
don't expect their sales to go down very much.

654
00:25:38.667 --> 00:25:40.300
In other words-- in other words, there's a

655
00:25:40.300 --> 00:25:41.767
threshold there.

656
00:25:41.767 --> 00:25:43.133
I mean, they'll continue to buy them, even though they'll raise

657
00:25:43.133 --> 00:25:44.400
the prices.

658
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:47.167
That's right. Exactly.

659
00:25:47.167 --> 00:25:48.434
Yeah.

660
00:25:48.434 --> 00:25:49.868
Your company-- Morgan Stanley merged with Dean Witter.

661
00:25:49.868 --> 00:25:51.467
Right.

662
00:25:51.467 --> 00:25:53.133
Discovery.

663
00:25:53.133 --> 00:25:54.801
Who would have thought it?

664
00:25:54.801 --> 00:25:56.467
Who would have thought it?

665
00:25:56.467 --> 00:25:58.133
Who would have thought it?

666
00:25:58.133 --> 00:25:59.801
You, at least in '88 and

667
00:25:59.801 --> 00:26:01.434
'89, retail investment--

668
00:26:01.434 --> 00:26:02.868
retail brokerage firm, wanted and talked about doing that very

669
00:26:02.868 --> 00:26:04.267
thing, associating and buying--

670
00:26:04.267 --> 00:26:05.701
Right.

671
00:26:05.701 --> 00:26:07.100
--or merging with-- and then you kind of cooled

672
00:26:07.100 --> 00:26:08.534
on the idea.

673
00:26:08.534 --> 00:26:11.934
Right. Right.

674
00:26:11.934 --> 00:26:13.400
Now everybody talks about you--

675
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:14.901
Right.

676
00:26:14.901 --> 00:26:16.367
--as the prime candidate to either merge with an

677
00:26:16.367 --> 00:26:17.834
investment bank--

678
00:26:17.834 --> 00:26:19.033
Right.

679
00:26:19.033 --> 00:26:20.234
--or be acquired--

680
00:26:20.234 --> 00:26:21.467
Right.

681
00:26:21.467 --> 00:26:22.667
--by some major commercial bank like Nation's

682
00:26:22.667 --> 00:26:23.868
Bank or Bank of America.

683
00:26:23.868 --> 00:26:25.634
Are any of these options viable and likely to happen?

684
00:26:25.634 --> 00:26:27.901
Well, it's nice to be wanted.

685
00:26:27.901 --> 00:26:30.367
There's no question about it.

686
00:26:30.367 --> 00:26:32.868
And never say never, but right now we think we have a very

687
00:26:32.868 --> 00:26:34.901
strong independent firm in the right part of the market.

688
00:26:34.901 --> 00:26:36.934
And in our business, what's crucial is you be in the right

689
00:26:36.934 --> 00:26:38.968
part and there's been a huge change in our business and if

690
00:26:38.968 --> 00:26:41.000
you want to look at our business and step back a

691
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:43.033
little bit, it's

692
00:26:43.033 --> 00:26:45.200
really all about where the flow of funds is.

693
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.667
In the '70s, our business was dominated by the growth of

694
00:26:47.667 --> 00:26:50.100
pension funds.

695
00:26:50.100 --> 00:26:52.534
That's when pension funds built up in this country.

696
00:26:52.534 --> 00:26:55.400
So our industry created pension fund advisory firms, the ways to

697
00:26:55.400 --> 00:26:58.033
deal with the needs of pension funds-- big orders.

698
00:26:58.033 --> 00:27:00.501
It changes commission structure to recognize the big order.

699
00:27:00.501 --> 00:27:03.067
In the '80s, America was dominated by corporations.

700
00:27:03.067 --> 00:27:05.901
The American corporations went global.

701
00:27:05.901 --> 00:27:08.267
They needed more capital.

702
00:27:08.267 --> 00:27:10.267
They needed new kinds of ways of financing derivatives.

703
00:27:10.267 --> 00:27:12.334
American Wall Street firms had to get bigger and more complex

704
00:27:12.334 --> 00:27:14.434
to deal with that.

705
00:27:14.434 --> 00:27:16.734
That's what drove the '80s.

706
00:27:16.734 --> 00:27:19.033
Of course, the '80s ended with the biggest corporate needs of

707
00:27:19.033 --> 00:27:21.300
all, LBL funds and junk bonds.

708
00:27:21.300 --> 00:27:23.234
The '90s is the decade of the individual.

709
00:27:23.234 --> 00:27:25.234
In the '90s, there's a huge transfer of responsibility of

710
00:27:25.234 --> 00:27:27.334
individuals' futures from corporations and the government

711
00:27:27.334 --> 00:27:29.167
into their own hands.

712
00:27:29.167 --> 00:27:31.067
So you are making the argument that those people

713
00:27:31.067 --> 00:27:33.000
positioned to serve the individuals are in the most--

714
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:35.000
are in the catbird's seat.

715
00:27:35.000 --> 00:27:37.167
They're in the catbird's seat because what you

716
00:27:37.167 --> 00:27:39.434
have is this build-up of what are called ''defined

717
00:27:39.434 --> 00:27:41.601
contribution plans,'' which are taking the place of pension

718
00:27:41.601 --> 00:27:43.501
plans-- American individuals with pools of money under their

719
00:27:43.501 --> 00:27:45.400
control that represent their future.

720
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:47.100
We're building a nation of pension fund managers.

721
00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:48.868
Yeah.

722
00:27:48.868 --> 00:27:50.434
Here's what else there is, though.

723
00:27:50.434 --> 00:27:52.133
Yeah.

724
00:27:52.133 --> 00:27:53.868
I mean, we have seen it

725
00:27:53.868 --> 00:27:55.167
in many major industries.

726
00:27:55.167 --> 00:27:56.467
In my business--

727
00:27:56.467 --> 00:27:57.767
Right.

728
00:27:57.767 --> 00:27:59.067
--the communications business, you've seen Cap

729
00:27:59.067 --> 00:28:00.367
Cities and Disney and you've seen

730
00:28:00.367 --> 00:28:01.801
other kinds of mergers.

731
00:28:01.801 --> 00:28:03.400
Right.

732
00:28:03.400 --> 00:28:05.300
Viacom and Paramount and

733
00:28:05.300 --> 00:28:07.334
other-- and Blockbuster.

734
00:28:07.334 --> 00:28:09.100
They're saying that if you want to survive, you need more

735
00:28:09.100 --> 00:28:10.667
capital, you need to be more aggressive and you need to have

736
00:28:10.667 --> 00:28:12.300
more muscle in order to compete with Dean Witter and Morgan

737
00:28:12.300 --> 00:28:14.267
Stanley Discovery.

738
00:28:14.267 --> 00:28:16.300
Right.

739
00:28:16.300 --> 00:28:18.367
Well, they-- yes.

740
00:28:18.367 --> 00:28:20.400
But the difference in our business is that capital and

741
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:22.200
talent no longer have to be only in the big firms.

742
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.033
There is more capital in the world that needs

743
00:28:24.033 --> 00:28:25.667
(unintelligible) that needs to be invested

744
00:28:25.667 --> 00:28:27.400
than there is talent.

745
00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:28.934
And if you want proof of that, you have the

746
00:28:28.934 --> 00:28:30.334
growth of hedge funds.

747
00:28:30.334 --> 00:28:31.667
There's a man named Jeffrey Vinik, (sp?

748
00:28:31.667 --> 00:28:33.133
) who leaves Fidelity Fund.

749
00:28:33.133 --> 00:28:36.434
Right. Right.

750
00:28:36.434 --> 00:28:38.200
Six months later, he's got $700 million.

751
00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.033
That couldn't have happened 10 years go.

752
00:28:40.033 --> 00:28:41.934
So what you have is a huge growth in assets driven by this

753
00:28:41.934 --> 00:28:43.567
defined contribution--

754
00:28:43.567 --> 00:28:45.334
So, wait! (crosstalk) Let me interrupt you.

755
00:28:45.334 --> 00:28:47.133
There's more money than there is talent to run it.

756
00:28:47.133 --> 00:28:49.000
Right.

757
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:50.868
So there's a lot of money around now searching

758
00:28:50.868 --> 00:28:52.300
for some smart people to manage it and invest it well.

759
00:28:52.300 --> 00:28:53.734
And they don't care whether the smart people

760
00:28:53.734 --> 00:28:55.133
are in big firms or little firms or--

761
00:28:55.133 --> 00:28:56.567
Okay. (crosstalk) That's why yesterday you

762
00:28:56.567 --> 00:28:57.968
announced you'd hired this

763
00:28:57.968 --> 00:28:59.234
hot-shot research--

764
00:28:59.234 --> 00:29:00.467
Correct.

765
00:29:00.467 --> 00:29:01.701
--guy.

766
00:29:01.701 --> 00:29:02.934
Correct. And we have built the firm on the

767
00:29:02.934 --> 00:29:04.200
basis that good advice does

768
00:29:04.200 --> 00:29:05.767
make a difference.

769
00:29:05.767 --> 00:29:07.467
It comes in all kinds of forms, but we think

770
00:29:07.467 --> 00:29:09.234
that's a genuine difference.

771
00:29:09.234 --> 00:29:11.067
In fact, that's where your origins in the

772
00:29:11.067 --> 00:29:12.701
business were.

773
00:29:12.701 --> 00:29:14.400
And that's the origins of the business.

774
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:15.934
At Marron Company and--

775
00:29:15.934 --> 00:29:17.601
That's right.

776
00:29:17.601 --> 00:29:18.834
--at Mutual Hutchins. (sp?

777
00:29:18.834 --> 00:29:21.367
)

778
00:29:21.367 --> 00:29:22.601
Because in our business, the ability to do

779
00:29:22.601 --> 00:29:23.868
transactions-- everybody can do transactions.

780
00:29:23.868 --> 00:29:25.534
Yeah.

781
00:29:25.534 --> 00:29:27.300
By the year 2000, everybody'll be able to do

782
00:29:27.300 --> 00:29:29.100
them on the Internet and very inexpensively, so that's not

783
00:29:29.100 --> 00:29:30.968
going to differentiate you.

784
00:29:30.968 --> 00:29:32.868
Yeah, but are you on the Internet?

785
00:29:32.868 --> 00:29:34.801
We've started on the Internet.

786
00:29:34.801 --> 00:29:36.734
Are you there early or are you there late?

787
00:29:36.734 --> 00:29:38.701
We're sort of there in the

788
00:29:38.701 --> 00:29:40.667
middle, at the moment.

789
00:29:40.667 --> 00:29:42.634
We don't think yet that's the place that we

790
00:29:42.634 --> 00:29:44.367
can make a big impact.

791
00:29:44.367 --> 00:29:46.167
Yeah.

792
00:29:46.167 --> 00:29:48.000
We think the Internet now is a

793
00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:49.901
communications device.

794
00:29:49.901 --> 00:29:51.801
It's not something that's going to help you do better.

795
00:29:51.801 --> 00:29:53.734
What's the more interesting idea for you,

796
00:29:53.734 --> 00:29:55.300
acquisition by a commercial bank, even though they

797
00:29:55.300 --> 00:29:56.901
functioned as a merchant bank--

798
00:29:56.901 --> 00:29:58.467
Right.

799
00:29:58.467 --> 00:30:00.033
--Banker's Trust, of Alex Brown, or acquisition

800
00:30:00.033 --> 00:30:01.601
or merger between Morgan Stanley and Dean Witter?

801
00:30:01.601 --> 00:30:03.601
Well, they're so different.

802
00:30:03.601 --> 00:30:05.334
The thing about Morgan Stanley and Dean Witter is that the

803
00:30:05.334 --> 00:30:07.133
Morgan Stanley franchise in investment banking and capital

804
00:30:07.133 --> 00:30:09.000
markets is seen as a leading, if not the leading, franchise in

805
00:30:09.000 --> 00:30:10.901
our business.

806
00:30:10.901 --> 00:30:12.801
Highest quality you could have.

807
00:30:12.801 --> 00:30:14.501
High quality, long-term global reach.

808
00:30:14.501 --> 00:30:16.267
Nonetheless, they felt it desirable or they needed to

809
00:30:16.267 --> 00:30:18.100
merge with a firm whose reach is domestic and

810
00:30:18.100 --> 00:30:19.968
virtually totally individual.

811
00:30:19.968 --> 00:30:21.601
Now, that makes sense to me.

812
00:30:21.601 --> 00:30:23.100
Yeah.

813
00:30:23.100 --> 00:30:24.701
You've got a smart, high-quality firm--

814
00:30:24.701 --> 00:30:27.934
Yeah. Right.

815
00:30:27.934 --> 00:30:29.334
--combining high end of the market, underwriting

816
00:30:29.334 --> 00:30:30.634
and all that, combining with another firm which has huge

817
00:30:30.634 --> 00:30:31.868
risks-- reach.

818
00:30:31.868 --> 00:30:33.400
And risk.

819
00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:35.033
And risk, yeah.

820
00:30:35.033 --> 00:30:36.534
Why doesn't that make sense?

821
00:30:36.534 --> 00:30:38.133
It makes sense conceptually.

822
00:30:38.133 --> 00:30:39.601
The cultures are very different.

823
00:30:39.601 --> 00:30:41.501
There's a lot to do.

824
00:30:41.501 --> 00:30:43.567
People who run both firms are very able people.

825
00:30:43.567 --> 00:30:45.767
I think it does make sense.

826
00:30:45.767 --> 00:30:47.667
What-- would you rather be acquired by a

827
00:30:47.667 --> 00:30:49.601
commercial bank or an investment bank?

828
00:30:49.601 --> 00:30:51.701
Or would you rather buy one or the other?

829
00:30:51.701 --> 00:30:53.567
It's unlikely.

830
00:30:53.567 --> 00:30:55.467
I mean, you're going to be bought by a commercial bank,

831
00:30:55.467 --> 00:30:57.234
rather than buying them, and you're more likely to have a

832
00:30:57.234 --> 00:30:59.133
merger with an investment bank.

833
00:30:59.133 --> 00:31:00.868
Well, this is a time when I should say we want

834
00:31:00.868 --> 00:31:02.801
to be independent forever.

835
00:31:02.801 --> 00:31:04.901
But what I will say is what you want to do is provide more

836
00:31:04.901 --> 00:31:06.701
services to your clients.

837
00:31:06.701 --> 00:31:08.334
Don't you, at the end of the day, say to your

838
00:31:08.334 --> 00:31:09.801
board, ''We cannot remain independent?

839
00:31:09.801 --> 00:31:11.400
I might have dreamed that.

840
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:13.400
I might have wanted that.

841
00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:15.100
I might have thought that.

842
00:31:15.100 --> 00:31:16.901
That might have been my most fervent desire.

843
00:31:16.901 --> 00:31:19.033
But the competition and the market today

844
00:31:19.033 --> 00:31:21.133
will not allow us''?

845
00:31:21.133 --> 00:31:23.200
No, I say we are stronger to be independent now

846
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:25.334
because in the last 15 years, most of our competitors have

847
00:31:25.334 --> 00:31:27.167
merged or, in a few cases, like E.F.

848
00:31:27.167 --> 00:31:28.868
Hutton, have gone out of business.

849
00:31:28.868 --> 00:31:30.801
Our capital's gone up 30 times in the last 15 years.

850
00:31:30.801 --> 00:31:32.667
We're stronger than ever.

851
00:31:32.667 --> 00:31:34.634
We have record earnings.

852
00:31:34.634 --> 00:31:36.701
And what we need to do, however, is provide that good advice and

853
00:31:36.701 --> 00:31:38.934
be a solid, successful firm.

854
00:31:38.934 --> 00:31:41.334
But if you can do it all, if you can do the

855
00:31:41.334 --> 00:31:43.400
underwriting, if you can provide the solid advice and if you can

856
00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:45.434
sell it to those millions and millions and millions of

857
00:31:45.434 --> 00:31:47.200
Americans around the country-- man, that's the best of all

858
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:49.200
possible worlds.

859
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:51.200
That's the best.

860
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:52.934
Now, you ask about banks.

861
00:31:52.934 --> 00:31:54.734
There's one thing we can't do which is very important.

862
00:31:54.734 --> 00:31:56.367
We can't be in the trust business.

863
00:31:56.367 --> 00:31:57.801
Right.

864
00:31:57.801 --> 00:31:59.133
And that's a fast-growing

865
00:31:59.133 --> 00:32:00.667
business because of Glass-Stiegel. (sp?

866
00:32:00.667 --> 00:32:03.601
)

867
00:32:03.601 --> 00:32:04.901
Yeah.

868
00:32:04.901 --> 00:32:06.234
That's a difficulty.

869
00:32:06.234 --> 00:32:07.534
Glass-Stiegel being the act that, in fact, said

870
00:32:07.534 --> 00:32:08.834
that you couldn't be in the investment banking and

871
00:32:08.834 --> 00:32:10.434
commercial banking business now, but you can.

872
00:32:10.434 --> 00:32:12.133
But you can.

873
00:32:12.133 --> 00:32:13.868
A bank can be in our business.

874
00:32:13.868 --> 00:32:15.467
Banker's Trust can buy Alex Brown.

875
00:32:15.467 --> 00:32:16.868
We couldn't have bought Banker's Trust.

876
00:32:16.868 --> 00:32:18.467
You couldn't be in the commercial business.

877
00:32:18.467 --> 00:32:19.868
That's right.

878
00:32:19.868 --> 00:32:23.133
Yeah. So--

879
00:32:23.133 --> 00:32:24.901
It's an unfair playing field at the moment.

880
00:32:24.901 --> 00:32:26.467
Well, so-- suggesting that you and others

881
00:32:26.467 --> 00:32:28.133
are lobbying to change that, too?

882
00:32:28.133 --> 00:32:29.901
Change it or just make it a

883
00:32:29.901 --> 00:32:31.467
level playing field.

884
00:32:31.467 --> 00:32:32.901
But you're asking what would help us with our clients, to be

885
00:32:32.901 --> 00:32:34.234
in the trust business, to offer the kind of trust services, to

886
00:32:34.234 --> 00:32:35.701
have insured deposits.

887
00:32:35.701 --> 00:32:37.334
A bank has insured deposits.

888
00:32:37.334 --> 00:32:39.033
Okay.

889
00:32:39.033 --> 00:32:40.834
But is the big thing about a commercial bank its trust

890
00:32:40.834 --> 00:32:42.667
accounts or its corporate accounts, its--

891
00:32:42.667 --> 00:32:44.300
Well, for us, it'd be its trust accounts.

892
00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:46.033
Because they-- because they're investing in--

893
00:32:46.033 --> 00:32:47.801
Because they invest.

894
00:32:47.801 --> 00:32:49.400
--securities.

895
00:32:49.400 --> 00:32:50.834
Or at Morgan Stanley, it might be their

896
00:32:50.834 --> 00:32:52.434
corporate accounts because their biggest franchise is in the

897
00:32:52.434 --> 00:32:54.100
corporate side.

898
00:32:54.100 --> 00:32:55.868
All right.

899
00:32:55.868 --> 00:32:57.701
How long do you want to do this, be CEO of Painewebber?

900
00:32:57.701 --> 00:32:59.067
As long as it's fun and as long as we can keep

901
00:32:59.067 --> 00:33:00.801
growing and do interesting things.

902
00:33:00.801 --> 00:33:02.634
Why is it more-- you have an

903
00:33:02.634 --> 00:33:04.534
extraordinary art collection.

904
00:33:04.534 --> 00:33:06.434
The Painewebber has toured the country and it has some of the

905
00:33:06.434 --> 00:33:08.367
great names in art and it is said -- and I'm not flattering

906
00:33:08.367 --> 00:33:10.334
you because you've probably had the help of some very talented

907
00:33:10.334 --> 00:33:12.300
curators -- that this is one heck of a collection and it's

908
00:33:12.300 --> 00:33:14.267
well-chosen and it would make any museum proud.

909
00:33:14.267 --> 00:33:16.234
Right.

910
00:33:16.234 --> 00:33:18.234
How did you do it?

911
00:33:18.234 --> 00:33:20.234
And why is that a wise investment of

912
00:33:20.234 --> 00:33:22.467
stockholders' money?

913
00:33:22.467 --> 00:33:24.634
And that's a long story, but the short

914
00:33:24.634 --> 00:33:26.801
version-- why'd I do it?

915
00:33:26.801 --> 00:33:29.000
I've been collecting art since I was young, in my 20s.

916
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.167
Why I did it was I think contemporary art reflects

917
00:33:31.167 --> 00:33:33.567
contemporary life, in some cases anticipates it.

918
00:33:33.567 --> 00:33:35.868
You spend more time in the office than you do at home,

919
00:33:35.868 --> 00:33:38.267
usually, particularly if you work on Wall Street.

920
00:33:38.267 --> 00:33:40.634
So if you can be exposed to the best contemporary art, you're

921
00:33:40.634 --> 00:33:43.000
being exposed to what's going on around you.

922
00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.367
That's a stimulating and good thing to do.

923
00:33:45.367 --> 00:33:47.634
And why is it a good thing?

924
00:33:47.634 --> 00:33:49.834
Because contemporary art is something you can buy.

925
00:33:49.834 --> 00:33:52.000
It's not too expensive, usually, for a corporation.

926
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:54.100
It's exciting.

927
00:33:54.100 --> 00:33:56.200
It puts you in touch with things.

928
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:58.267
It's adventuresome, in some cases.

929
00:33:58.267 --> 00:34:00.067
And if you do it right, it's quality and we're identified

930
00:34:00.067 --> 00:34:01.667
with quality.

931
00:34:01.667 --> 00:34:03.367
Yeah, but you know, you were a great friend of

932
00:34:03.367 --> 00:34:04.901
Bill Paley's.

933
00:34:04.901 --> 00:34:06.534
Yeah.

934
00:34:06.534 --> 00:34:08.267
Westinghouse bought CBS.

935
00:34:08.267 --> 00:34:09.834
Yeah.

936
00:34:09.834 --> 00:34:11.467
You know what they're doing?

937
00:34:11.467 --> 00:34:13.234
They're selling the collection that they built up.

938
00:34:13.234 --> 00:34:14.801
Yeah.

939
00:34:14.801 --> 00:34:16.467
Sign of the times?

940
00:34:16.467 --> 00:34:18.200
Well, no, because a

941
00:34:18.200 --> 00:34:19.767
collection needs a spirit.

942
00:34:19.767 --> 00:34:21.667
It needs somebody interested and behind it.

943
00:34:21.667 --> 00:34:23.567
I mean, every work in this collection I've

944
00:34:23.567 --> 00:34:25.467
had a hand in acquiring.

945
00:34:25.467 --> 00:34:27.367
Every work that Bill Play had in the CBS collection he had a

946
00:34:27.367 --> 00:34:29.267
hand in acquiring.

947
00:34:29.267 --> 00:34:31.400
He and Frank Stanton, yeah.

948
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:33.801
He and Frank Stanton. That's right.

949
00:34:33.801 --> 00:34:36.334
I remember Bill Paley's office and-- one of those pictures in

950
00:34:36.334 --> 00:34:38.467
Bill Paley's office is coming up for auction.

951
00:34:38.467 --> 00:34:40.601
It's a strange feeling, in a way.

952
00:34:40.601 --> 00:34:42.934
Your most important corporate goal over

953
00:34:42.934 --> 00:34:45.234
the next year?

954
00:34:45.234 --> 00:34:47.601
Well, I think our most important corporate

955
00:34:47.601 --> 00:34:49.901
goal is quality, to provide the advice in what's going to be a

956
00:34:49.901 --> 00:34:52.267
much more difficult climate.

957
00:34:52.267 --> 00:34:54.534
It's a lot easier when the market's going up every month.

958
00:34:54.534 --> 00:34:56.767
We don't think that's going to happen this year.

959
00:34:56.767 --> 00:34:58.934
Our other corporate goal is to get bigger in some areas.

960
00:34:58.934 --> 00:35:00.834
It is no doubt that getting bigger is a good thing to do.

961
00:35:00.834 --> 00:35:02.734
At long last he admits it!

962
00:35:02.734 --> 00:35:04.734
And getting bigger

963
00:35:04.734 --> 00:35:06.701
probably means acquisitions.

964
00:35:06.701 --> 00:35:08.434
We bought Kidder Peabody about two years ago.

965
00:35:08.434 --> 00:35:10.000
That was hugely successful--

966
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:11.667
Yeah, but that was because--

967
00:35:11.667 --> 00:35:13.434
--for us.

968
00:35:13.434 --> 00:35:14.968
--G.E. owned 25 percent of-- G.E.

969
00:35:14.968 --> 00:35:16.400
had a problem with Kidder Peabody and so they unloaded it

970
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:17.734
with you and they took 25 percent of your stock.

971
00:35:17.734 --> 00:35:19.200
They did.

972
00:35:19.200 --> 00:35:20.567
That's right.

973
00:35:20.567 --> 00:35:22.100
That's right.

974
00:35:22.100 --> 00:35:23.501
But we could have paid for it in cash instead of

975
00:35:23.501 --> 00:35:24.801
doing it that way.

976
00:35:24.801 --> 00:35:26.334
But now-- now-- so that raises an

977
00:35:26.334 --> 00:35:28.534
interesting question.

978
00:35:28.534 --> 00:35:30.434
How long is G.E.

979
00:35:30.434 --> 00:35:32.367
going to keep the 25 percent investment in Painewebber before

980
00:35:32.367 --> 00:35:34.300
they say, ''Look,'' you know, ''now's the time to''--

981
00:35:34.300 --> 00:35:36.267
Well, you have to ask Jack Welch (sp? ) that.

982
00:35:36.267 --> 00:35:37.968
I would if he'd come.

983
00:35:37.968 --> 00:35:39.267
He and I have a good relationship.

984
00:35:39.267 --> 00:35:40.534
But we have the option to buy it back.

985
00:35:40.534 --> 00:35:41.834
You do?

986
00:35:41.834 --> 00:35:43.100
So we can always buy back that

987
00:35:43.100 --> 00:35:46.300
stock, if we want to.

988
00:35:46.300 --> 00:35:48.534
Yeah.

989
00:35:48.534 --> 00:35:50.434
You know what Jack Welch says, he only wants to be in companies

990
00:35:50.434 --> 00:35:52.100
that he is first or second or third--

991
00:35:52.100 --> 00:35:53.868
That's why he-- (crosstalk)

992
00:35:53.868 --> 00:35:55.667
Don Marron, it's great to have you here.

993
00:35:55.667 --> 00:35:57.534
Thank you.

994
00:35:57.534 --> 00:35:59.434
But you're still in the market for good art?

995
00:35:59.434 --> 00:36:00.934
Still in the market for good art.

996
00:36:00.934 --> 00:36:02.400
For personal and--

997
00:36:02.400 --> 00:36:03.868
For personal (unintelligible)

998
00:36:03.868 --> 00:36:05.334
Your personal interest, primary interest, is

999
00:36:05.334 --> 00:36:06.801
20th century?

1000
00:36:06.801 --> 00:36:08.400
Twentieth century.

1001
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:09.834
Yeah.

1002
00:36:09.834 --> 00:36:11.167
Well, and early 20th century.

1003
00:36:11.167 --> 00:36:12.400
Yeah.

1004
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:13.868
Any one favorite artist?

1005
00:36:13.868 --> 00:36:15.167
Matisse.

1006
00:36:15.167 --> 00:36:16.667
Ah!

1007
00:36:16.667 --> 00:36:18.033
Of the earlier artists.

1008
00:36:18.033 --> 00:36:19.567
Absolutely Matisse.

1009
00:36:19.567 --> 00:36:21.200
Great artist, great feeling, the inspiration for a lot of things

1010
00:36:21.200 --> 00:36:22.934
that are going on now.

1011
00:36:22.934 --> 00:36:24.801
Now, were you president of MoMA when he-- or

1012
00:36:24.801 --> 00:36:26.567
chairman of the board, whichever you were, I forget-- when they

1013
00:36:26.567 --> 00:36:28.133
had that great Matisse collection?

1014
00:36:28.133 --> 00:36:29.667
Oh--

1015
00:36:29.667 --> 00:36:31.200
Exhibit?

1016
00:36:31.200 --> 00:36:32.734
Yes, I think I was still president. I don't

1017
00:36:32.734 --> 00:36:34.267
remember the dates exactly.

1018
00:36:34.267 --> 00:36:36.234
But that was a marvelous show because it was one of the only

1019
00:36:36.234 --> 00:36:38.234
two times we turned the whole museum over to one artist.

1020
00:36:38.234 --> 00:36:40.200
Picasso being the other time.

1021
00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:41.934
Picasso being the other.

1022
00:36:41.934 --> 00:36:43.434
And Picasso is the biggest gathering they've

1023
00:36:43.434 --> 00:36:44.934
ever had at MoMA and Matisse is second.

1024
00:36:44.934 --> 00:36:46.434
That's right.

1025
00:36:46.434 --> 00:36:47.901
And the third is the-- I know this

1026
00:36:47.901 --> 00:36:49.400
only because I

1027
00:36:49.400 --> 00:36:51.334
have a small interest in this kind of thing.

1028
00:36:51.334 --> 00:36:53.033
The third is Picasso's portraitures.

1029
00:36:53.033 --> 00:36:54.801
That's right.

1030
00:36:54.801 --> 00:36:56.634
Any time you do a Picasso show, you draw the widest audience.

1031
00:36:56.634 --> 00:36:58.267
Yeah.

1032
00:36:58.267 --> 00:37:00.000
All you've got to do is--

1033
00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:01.767
There's no person like--

1034
00:37:01.767 --> 00:37:03.601
--as the people down at the National Gallery.

1035
00:37:03.601 --> 00:37:05.501
They've got one going right now of the young Picasso.

1036
00:37:05.501 --> 00:37:07.400
They-- early Picasso and late Picasso and

1037
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:09.100
special Picasso-- they all do very well.

1038
00:37:09.100 --> 00:37:10.601
What is it, Picasso is just the most

1039
00:37:10.601 --> 00:37:12.000
engaging-- because he lived a long time, because he was a

1040
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:13.534
larger-than-life personality?

1041
00:37:13.534 --> 00:37:14.934
What else?

1042
00:37:14.934 --> 00:37:16.501
He was that.

1043
00:37:16.501 --> 00:37:17.901
He also painted in many different styles.

1044
00:37:17.901 --> 00:37:19.467
He was changed.

1045
00:37:19.467 --> 00:37:20.901
Of course, he founded, with Bracque, cubism.

1046
00:37:20.901 --> 00:37:22.200
Cubism.

1047
00:37:22.200 --> 00:37:23.701
And he moved forward into

1048
00:37:23.701 --> 00:37:25.300
representational styles.

1049
00:37:25.300 --> 00:37:27.000
Yeah.

1050
00:37:27.000 --> 00:37:28.801
He combined representation with abstraction.

1051
00:37:28.801 --> 00:37:31.033
And he did it for almost 90 years.

1052
00:37:31.033 --> 00:37:33.200
And he's-- he's a romantic, in people's eyes.

1053
00:37:33.200 --> 00:37:34.634
When we do a Picasso show, or you see one, people are almost

1054
00:37:34.634 --> 00:37:36.033
as interested in the history, who's being painted--

1055
00:37:36.033 --> 00:37:37.467
Yeah.

1056
00:37:37.467 --> 00:37:38.901
--the context in which it happens, as they are

1057
00:37:38.901 --> 00:37:40.334
in the work (unintelligible) So he lived the

1058
00:37:40.334 --> 00:37:41.734
richest and most full

1059
00:37:41.734 --> 00:37:43.601
life an artist could possibly live, painting and the subjects

1060
00:37:43.601 --> 00:37:45.367
going together.

1061
00:37:45.367 --> 00:37:47.300
Yeah.

1062
00:37:47.300 --> 00:37:48.968
It's great to have you here.

1063
00:37:48.968 --> 00:37:51.267
Thank you very much.

1064
00:37:51.267 --> 00:37:54.734
It's nice to be here, Charlie.

1065
00:37:54.734 --> 00:37:57.868
We'll be right back.

1066
00:37:57.868 --> 00:38:00.734
Stay with us.

1067
00:38:00.734 --> 00:38:03.467
Laughter, Laughter, Laughter

1068
00:38:03.467 --> 00:38:06.200
Whenever JOAN RIVERS hasn't been making people

1069
00:38:06.200 --> 00:38:08.868
laugh, she has been giving advice.

1070
00:38:08.868 --> 00:38:11.400
Her latest advice-giving effort is Bouncing Back, which offers

1071
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:14.033
emotional wisdom on how to overcome adversity.

1072
00:38:14.033 --> 00:38:16.234
She is the host of a national daily radio show.

1073
00:38:16.234 --> 00:38:18.167
She can be seen on either QVC, selling her jewelry, or on E!

1074
00:38:18.167 --> 00:38:20.133
Entertainment Television, covering

1075
00:38:20.133 --> 00:38:22.100
fashions for the Oscars.

1076
00:38:22.100 --> 00:38:24.133
And then if that is not enough.

1077
00:38:24.133 --> 00:38:25.901
She's at work on another Broadway play and probably

1078
00:38:25.901 --> 00:38:27.767
there's another book somewhere.

1079
00:38:27.767 --> 00:38:29.400
But we are sure pleased she stopped by here.

1080
00:38:29.400 --> 00:38:30.901
Welcome back.

1081
00:38:30.901 --> 00:38:32.534
I'm so-- I'm always so

1082
00:38:32.534 --> 00:38:34.000
happy to see you.

1083
00:38:34.000 --> 00:38:35.334
Yes, indeed!

1084
00:38:35.334 --> 00:38:36.601
And you always look chic-er

1085
00:38:36.601 --> 00:38:37.834
every time I see you.

1086
00:38:37.834 --> 00:38:39.300
Of course, I do!

1087
00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:40.601
Pulled together.

1088
00:38:40.601 --> 00:38:41.868
Of course, I do.

1089
00:38:41.868 --> 00:38:43.300
Looks like I'm all pulled together.

1090
00:38:43.300 --> 00:38:45.000
Pulled together.

1091
00:38:45.000 --> 00:38:46.501
Yeah.

1092
00:38:46.501 --> 00:38:48.133
Now, tell me first about the radio show.

1093
00:38:48.133 --> 00:38:49.601
Then we'll get to the book and we'll get to this other stuff.

1094
00:38:49.601 --> 00:38:51.467
So much fun.

1095
00:38:51.467 --> 00:38:52.868
You're on from 7: 00 to 9: 00--

1096
00:38:52.868 --> 00:38:54.234
From 7: 00 to 9: 00.

1097
00:38:54.234 --> 00:38:55.634
--on WOR radio here in New York.

1098
00:38:55.634 --> 00:38:57.033
In New York. And then we-- it gets earlier across

1099
00:38:57.033 --> 00:38:58.434
the country.

1100
00:38:58.434 --> 00:38:59.868
Right.

1101
00:38:59.868 --> 00:39:01.467
And I think I took it because

1102
00:39:01.467 --> 00:39:02.901
nobody wants that time.

1103
00:39:02.901 --> 00:39:04.234
Yeah.

1104
00:39:04.234 --> 00:39:05.467
You know, they're home and they're already-- and

1105
00:39:05.467 --> 00:39:06.901
so you can say anything.

1106
00:39:06.901 --> 00:39:08.501
You can answer back.

1107
00:39:08.501 --> 00:39:10.167
You can say, ''You're wrong!''

1108
00:39:10.167 --> 00:39:11.934
''Yeah, well, you're stupid, okay?''

1109
00:39:11.934 --> 00:39:13.767
So we really are getting into things I can never do on

1110
00:39:13.767 --> 00:39:15.300
television and--

1111
00:39:15.300 --> 00:39:16.868
You take phone calls.

1112
00:39:16.868 --> 00:39:18.434
Phone calls and it's-- I'm having a ball.

1113
00:39:18.434 --> 00:39:19.968
Now, do you have celebrity guests or do you have

1114
00:39:19.968 --> 00:39:21.534
people advising people on how to--

1115
00:39:21.534 --> 00:39:23.200
Everything.

1116
00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:24.968
--be healthy and live a good life and all--

1117
00:39:24.968 --> 00:39:26.801
Oh, no. That's boring. I have--

1118
00:39:26.801 --> 00:39:28.400
Well, why are we talking about this book, then?

1119
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:30.100
Because I know the answers.

1120
00:39:30.100 --> 00:39:31.634
It's-- oh, we had Mark Fuhrman on and--

1121
00:39:31.634 --> 00:39:33.033
Oh, Mark Fuhrman's on?

1122
00:39:33.033 --> 00:39:35.968
Yeah, it was great. Great.

1123
00:39:35.968 --> 00:39:37.534
Two hours-- wonderful.

1124
00:39:37.534 --> 00:39:38.968
You went one on one with Mark

1125
00:39:38.968 --> 00:39:40.534
Fuhrman for two hours?

1126
00:39:40.534 --> 00:39:43.267
Yeah, for two hours. Great.

1127
00:39:43.267 --> 00:39:44.501
Another one totally opposite-- Emily Post.

1128
00:39:44.501 --> 00:39:45.934
Emily Post?

1129
00:39:45.934 --> 00:39:47.501
Peggy Post.

1130
00:39:47.501 --> 00:39:49.200
Peggy Post?

1131
00:39:49.200 --> 00:39:50.701
Manners are dead and I'm bringing them back.

1132
00:39:50.701 --> 00:39:52.067
Peggy Post is the Emily Post of the day?

1133
00:39:52.067 --> 00:39:53.367
The

1134
00:39:53.367 --> 00:39:54.834
great-granddaughter of Emily Post.

1135
00:39:54.834 --> 00:39:56.434
Oh, yeah.

1136
00:39:56.434 --> 00:39:58.133
About manners.

1137
00:39:58.133 --> 00:39:59.901
About manners--

1138
00:39:59.901 --> 00:40:01.501
Well, we do have a society that's a little bit--

1139
00:40:01.501 --> 00:40:02.934
Oh!

1140
00:40:02.934 --> 00:40:03.901
''Incivil'' is the word they use today.

1141
00:40:03.901 --> 00:40:04.868
What--

1142
00:40:04.868 --> 00:40:05.868
Whatever happened to civility?

1143
00:40:05.868 --> 00:40:06.834
Civility-- a taxi driver comes over to open your

1144
00:40:06.834 --> 00:40:07.801
door, you duck!

1145
00:40:07.801 --> 00:40:08.901
''What'd I do?

1146
00:40:08.901 --> 00:40:10.000
Was the tip not big enough?''

1147
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:11.033
You know?

1148
00:40:11.033 --> 00:40:12.100
It's-- if he gets out of the door to help you,

1149
00:40:12.100 --> 00:40:13.133
he's coming to get you!

1150
00:40:13.133 --> 00:40:14.133
He's coming to kill you.

1151
00:40:14.133 --> 00:40:15.167
It's New York.

1152
00:40:15.167 --> 00:40:16.167
So you just-- but it's a wonderful show.

1153
00:40:16.167 --> 00:40:17.200
I'm having a great time.

1154
00:40:17.200 --> 00:40:18.200
Speaking of New York, you'd rather be in New

1155
00:40:18.200 --> 00:40:19.400
York than in Los Angeles.

1156
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:20.601
In-- oh!

1157
00:40:20.601 --> 00:40:22.000
I'd rather be in hell than in Los Angeles!

1158
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:23.567
Yes, of course!

1159
00:40:23.567 --> 00:40:25.734
Any woman over 12 that doesn't have 49-inch breasts should not

1160
00:40:25.734 --> 00:40:27.868
be in Los Angeles, you know?

1161
00:40:27.868 --> 00:40:29.968
If you're over 12--

1162
00:40:29.968 --> 00:40:32.033
Over 12 and you haven't got breasts--

1163
00:40:32.033 --> 00:40:34.133
And go to-

1164
00:40:34.133 --> 00:40:36.200
Go! Get out of Los Angeles. Get out of-- no, I--

1165
00:40:36.200 --> 00:40:38.234
Because you can't compete!

1166
00:40:38.234 --> 00:40:40.300
You can't compete and it's-- it's a company town.

1167
00:40:40.300 --> 00:40:42.400
You know, you walk in the restaurant--

1168
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.467
Right.

1169
00:40:44.467 --> 00:40:46.300
--and, you know, there are five tables.

1170
00:40:46.300 --> 00:40:48.133
''Am I going to get''-- and you find-- ''Oh, am I table number 3

1171
00:40:48.133 --> 00:40:51.133
or number 4?''

1172
00:40:51.133 --> 00:40:52.601
Yeah.

1173
00:40:52.601 --> 00:40:54.100
And you find yourself being nice to people that

1174
00:40:54.100 --> 00:40:55.601
are morons because they have a deal.

1175
00:40:55.601 --> 00:40:57.367
Oh, it was a horrible-- I hated it.

1176
00:40:57.367 --> 00:40:59.200
So you'd rather be here.

1177
00:40:59.200 --> 00:41:01.067
And you live well here.

1178
00:41:01.067 --> 00:41:02.968
You got a fancy townhouse over on the East Side?

1179
00:41:02.968 --> 00:41:04.667
I live well and I love every minute of it and I

1180
00:41:04.667 --> 00:41:06.434
love New York and I love New Yorkers.

1181
00:41:06.434 --> 00:41:08.000
Now, you-- economically--

1182
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:09.667
Yeah.

1183
00:41:09.667 --> 00:41:11.167
--in terms of your own-- generating money--

1184
00:41:11.167 --> 00:41:13.501
Yeah.

1185
00:41:13.501 --> 00:41:15.501
What was the low point for you?

1186
00:41:15.501 --> 00:41:17.501
Yesterday.

1187
00:41:17.501 --> 00:41:19.501
My accountant called me and said, ''You're a fool.''

1188
00:41:19.501 --> 00:41:20.968
And you said--

1189
00:41:20.968 --> 00:41:22.434
Oh, it's been up and down.

1190
00:41:22.434 --> 00:41:23.868
Well, I know it has.

1191
00:41:23.868 --> 00:41:25.334
After Edgar's suicide and Fox fired me, I didn't

1192
00:41:25.334 --> 00:41:26.801
work for a year.

1193
00:41:26.801 --> 00:41:28.467
Couldn't get a job.

1194
00:41:28.467 --> 00:41:30.234
Could not get a job.

1195
00:41:30.234 --> 00:41:31.801
Nobody would take your phone call.

1196
00:41:31.801 --> 00:41:33.234
No.

1197
00:41:33.234 --> 00:41:34.534
All your friends, what did they do?

1198
00:41:34.534 --> 00:41:35.801
What friends?

1199
00:41:35.801 --> 00:41:37.200
My friends still spoke to me.

1200
00:41:37.200 --> 00:41:38.534
All the rest were gone.

1201
00:41:38.534 --> 00:41:40.033
Are you serious?

1202
00:41:40.033 --> 00:41:41.634
Oh, in California?

1203
00:41:41.634 --> 00:41:43.367
Of course.

1204
00:41:43.367 --> 00:41:44.901
What does that say about them?

1205
00:41:44.901 --> 00:41:46.534
It says what I always knew.

1206
00:41:46.534 --> 00:41:48.267
I mean, your good friends were with you, of course.

1207
00:41:48.267 --> 00:41:49.834
Yeah.

1208
00:41:49.834 --> 00:41:51.234
And then the rest aren't friends.

1209
00:41:51.234 --> 00:41:52.801
The rest--

1210
00:41:52.801 --> 00:41:54.467
Once you got past those three, where did you go?

1211
00:41:54.467 --> 00:41:56.234
Yes.

1212
00:41:56.234 --> 00:41:57.734
It's acquaintances and they don't want to-- nobody wants to

1213
00:41:57.734 --> 00:41:59.234
be with someone--

1214
00:41:59.234 --> 00:42:00.734
Yeah.

1215
00:42:00.734 --> 00:42:02.234
--that's in trouble a little bit. Nobody wants to

1216
00:42:02.234 --> 00:42:03.734
walk in that restaurant with someone that's--

1217
00:42:03.734 --> 00:42:05.434
you know, it's very difficult and you understand that.

1218
00:42:05.434 --> 00:42:07.200
So what did you do?

1219
00:42:07.200 --> 00:42:09.033
I moved back to New York.

1220
00:42:09.033 --> 00:42:10.634
Right.

1221
00:42:10.634 --> 00:42:12.367
Got out very quickly and started again.

1222
00:42:12.367 --> 00:42:13.901
Got my Rolodex out and went from A to Z over and

1223
00:42:13.901 --> 00:42:15.300
over and over again.

1224
00:42:15.300 --> 00:42:16.601
Calling people, saying--

1225
00:42:16.601 --> 00:42:18.067
Saying, ''I need a job.

1226
00:42:18.067 --> 00:42:19.434
What have you got?

1227
00:42:19.434 --> 00:42:20.701
I can do this.

1228
00:42:20.701 --> 00:42:22.133
I can do that.

1229
00:42:22.133 --> 00:42:23.467
I can write.

1230
00:42:23.467 --> 00:42:24.968
I can produce.

1231
00:42:24.968 --> 00:42:26.601
I can do.''

1232
00:42:26.601 --> 00:42:28.334
And what was the breakthrough for you?

1233
00:42:28.334 --> 00:42:29.868
The breakthrough was the revival of Hollywood

1234
00:42:29.868 --> 00:42:31.767
Squares that you didn't even know--

1235
00:42:31.767 --> 00:42:33.467
You were going to sit in a square--

1236
00:42:33.467 --> 00:42:34.868
I would sit in a square.

1237
00:42:34.868 --> 00:42:36.300
But it wasn't like the old days with Paul Lynde and--

1238
00:42:36.300 --> 00:42:37.701
Yeah.

1239
00:42:37.701 --> 00:42:39.133
--Charlie Weaver. This was-- I once said to

1240
00:42:39.133 --> 00:42:40.534
somebody, ''Could you put my

1241
00:42:40.534 --> 00:42:42.300
Lifesavers in the square with me?''

1242
00:42:42.300 --> 00:42:43.834
He said, ''I'm on with you.'' These are, like, you know, the

1243
00:42:43.834 --> 00:42:45.501
fifth cousin down.

1244
00:42:45.501 --> 00:42:47.267
Now, but did you--

1245
00:42:47.267 --> 00:42:49.067
Roseanne's third neighbor next door.

1246
00:42:49.067 --> 00:42:50.934
''It's Hollywood Squares with JOAN RIVERS!''

1247
00:42:50.934 --> 00:42:52.801
''Hi.'' ''And Harry Schwartz.'' (sp?

1248
00:42:52.801 --> 00:42:54.734
) ''Ho, ho.'' ''And Patricia Nova.'' (sp?

1249
00:42:54.734 --> 00:42:56.667
) It was a nightmare.

1250
00:42:56.667 --> 00:42:58.367
But what was your mental attitude about this?

1251
00:42:58.367 --> 00:42:59.901
''I'm working.''

1252
00:42:59.901 --> 00:43:00.934
''I'm working.'' And then--

1253
00:43:00.934 --> 00:43:01.934
''I'm working.''

1254
00:43:01.934 --> 00:43:02.968
On Friday there's a paycheck.

1255
00:43:02.968 --> 00:43:03.968
And there's a paycheck and I get up in the

1256
00:43:03.968 --> 00:43:05.000
morning and I have a place to go and I kiss the feet of the

1257
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.200
producer that put me on. (crosstalk)

1258
00:43:07.200 --> 00:43:08.267
Because that began it, too.

1259
00:43:08.267 --> 00:43:09.334
That started it and I-- I was a person again.

1260
00:43:09.334 --> 00:43:10.133
And what was--

1261
00:43:10.133 --> 00:43:10.934
I was working.

1262
00:43:10.934 --> 00:43:11.734
What was next?

1263
00:43:11.734 --> 00:43:12.534
That started. Then I thought I should try

1264
00:43:12.534 --> 00:43:13.334
Broadway again. I'd been to Broadway once and I--

1265
00:43:13.334 --> 00:43:14.133
Neil Simon was doing

1266
00:43:14.133 --> 00:43:15.367
Broadway Bound and I called up and I was

1267
00:43:15.367 --> 00:43:16.634
told, ''We don't want''--

1268
00:43:16.634 --> 00:43:17.901
Did you call up Neil or did--

1269
00:43:17.901 --> 00:43:19.167
I called up-- not Neil. I called up the producer,

1270
00:43:19.167 --> 00:43:20.434
whose name, of course, now escapes me, but it will come to me,

1271
00:43:20.434 --> 00:43:21.868
who was wonderful.

1272
00:43:21.868 --> 00:43:23.267
And he said, ''Come in and read.

1273
00:43:23.267 --> 00:43:24.701
We don't want a Vegas trick, thank you.'' So I went in--

1274
00:43:24.701 --> 00:43:26.133
Well, that wasn't an appropriate

1275
00:43:26.133 --> 00:43:29.534
thing for him to say.

1276
00:43:29.534 --> 00:43:31.534
No, but that's--

1277
00:43:31.534 --> 00:43:33.534
Yeah. I know.

1278
00:43:33.534 --> 00:43:35.501
You know, that's it.

1279
00:43:35.501 --> 00:43:37.501
''We don't want a Vegas''--

1280
00:43:37.501 --> 00:43:39.501
No, no. I know.

1281
00:43:39.501 --> 00:43:41.501
This is not a trick.

1282
00:43:41.501 --> 00:43:43.501
No, I don't mean--

1283
00:43:43.501 --> 00:43:45.501
No, but-- of course it's not.

1284
00:43:45.501 --> 00:43:47.501
Of course it's not.

1285
00:43:47.501 --> 00:43:49.100
And I flew in and I read for them and they offered me the

1286
00:43:49.100 --> 00:43:50.701
part the same day, right there.

1287
00:43:50.701 --> 00:43:52.300
I put the-- put the script down and--

1288
00:43:52.300 --> 00:43:53.901
So you said, ''If you want me to

1289
00:43:53.901 --> 00:43:55.501
read, I'll be there.''

1290
00:43:55.501 --> 00:43:57.234
''I'll be there.

1291
00:43:57.234 --> 00:43:58.968
I'll be there.

1292
00:43:58.968 --> 00:44:00.701
I'll fly in myself and''--

1293
00:44:00.701 --> 00:44:02.434
Yeah. And you got-- and you got rave reviews for

1294
00:44:02.434 --> 00:44:04.167
your work.

1295
00:44:04.167 --> 00:44:06.234
Yeah.

1296
00:44:06.234 --> 00:44:08.067
I got rave reviews, yeah.

1297
00:44:08.067 --> 00:44:09.901
Yeah.

1298
00:44:09.901 --> 00:44:11.567
It was great.

1299
00:44:11.567 --> 00:44:13.300
And that started that.

1300
00:44:13.300 --> 00:44:14.834
Then-- it was all-- what I talk about in the book

1301
00:44:14.834 --> 00:44:16.501
is it's-- try everything.

1302
00:44:16.501 --> 00:44:18.000
They came to Nell Carter, ''Do a daytime talk show,'' and she

1303
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:19.367
said, ''Are you kidding?''

1304
00:44:19.367 --> 00:44:20.901
She was just coming off of a big hit.

1305
00:44:20.901 --> 00:44:22.567
Yeah.

1306
00:44:22.567 --> 00:44:24.033
What'd you say?

1307
00:44:24.033 --> 00:44:25.667
And she said, ''Oh, then try JOAN RIVERS.

1308
00:44:25.667 --> 00:44:27.100
She's not doing much.'' They called me up and I

1309
00:44:27.100 --> 00:44:28.701
said, ''Oh, yeah.

1310
00:44:28.701 --> 00:44:30.400
Sure.'' Didn't even ask the budget.

1311
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.200
Didn't even ask the price.

1312
00:44:32.200 --> 00:44:33.634
And that show brought me an Emmy--

1313
00:44:33.634 --> 00:44:35.100
Yeah.

1314
00:44:35.100 --> 00:44:36.534
--and seven years' work.

1315
00:44:36.534 --> 00:44:38.000
What is it about you, you think, that gives you

1316
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.467
this tenacity to survive and to bounce back?

1317
00:44:39.467 --> 00:44:40.968
Two things--

1318
00:44:40.968 --> 00:44:42.334
Fear!

1319
00:44:42.334 --> 00:44:43.634
Fear--

1320
00:44:43.634 --> 00:44:45.100
No. No, I'm serious.

1321
00:44:45.100 --> 00:44:46.434
No, truly. Truly.

1322
00:44:46.434 --> 00:44:47.968
You know this business.

1323
00:44:47.968 --> 00:44:49.334
The tenacity is I never thought that I'm so terrific that

1324
00:44:49.334 --> 00:44:50.868
anything is beneath me.

1325
00:44:50.868 --> 00:44:52.267
Truly, I've never been the one to say, ''That's not my job'' or

1326
00:44:52.267 --> 00:44:53.834
''I'm a star.

1327
00:44:53.834 --> 00:44:55.501
I don't do that.'' That has never, ever crossed my mind.

1328
00:44:55.501 --> 00:44:57.000
Okay, that's number one.

1329
00:44:57.000 --> 00:44:58.400
And number two, true, is I have to make a living and I go to

1330
00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:00.133
make a living and this is what I do and I'm up for hire.

1331
00:45:00.133 --> 00:45:01.734
And I love my work.

1332
00:45:01.734 --> 00:45:03.200
I don't-- I love my work!

1333
00:45:03.200 --> 00:45:04.634
I stand on the street when they're filming a commercial and

1334
00:45:04.634 --> 00:45:06.367
I watch it.

1335
00:45:06.367 --> 00:45:08.167
Do you really?

1336
00:45:08.167 --> 00:45:10.000
I'm still struck.

1337
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:11.634
And that's what made me keep in the business.

1338
00:45:11.634 --> 00:45:13.133
I'll do anything to stay in the business.

1339
00:45:13.133 --> 00:45:14.734
Your parents-- your father was a physician,

1340
00:45:14.734 --> 00:45:16.167
wasn't he?

1341
00:45:16.167 --> 00:45:17.767
Yes.

1342
00:45:17.767 --> 00:45:19.467
So you came from--

1343
00:45:19.467 --> 00:45:20.801
Good-- yes. Yes.

1344
00:45:20.801 --> 00:45:22.167
Upper middle class--

1345
00:45:22.167 --> 00:45:23.501
Yeah.

1346
00:45:23.501 --> 00:45:24.834
--the country club, the private

1347
00:45:24.834 --> 00:45:26.200
schools, all that.

1348
00:45:26.200 --> 00:45:28.033
No experience in show business at all!

1349
00:45:28.033 --> 00:45:29.968
Well, when my father had a patient that was a

1350
00:45:29.968 --> 00:45:31.434
hooker, she would say to the nurse, ''I'm an actress,'' so my

1351
00:45:31.434 --> 00:45:32.901
father-- that was the only thing--

1352
00:45:32.901 --> 00:45:34.133
so when you said to your father--

1353
00:45:34.133 --> 00:45:35.400
--that had to do with-- ''I

1354
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:36.634
want to be an actress''--

1355
00:45:36.634 --> 00:45:37.901
--you wanted to be an actress, he

1356
00:45:37.901 --> 00:45:39.133
said, ''All actresses''--

1357
00:45:39.133 --> 00:45:41.033
Whap!

1358
00:45:41.033 --> 00:45:42.367
He said to my mother, ''She wants to be a hooker.'' Little

1359
00:45:42.367 --> 00:45:43.734
did they know--

1360
00:45:43.734 --> 00:45:45.100
Little did they know!

1361
00:45:45.100 --> 00:45:46.467
--if they had looked at me, I

1362
00:45:46.467 --> 00:45:47.834
couldn't have made $2.

1363
00:45:47.834 --> 00:45:49.300
Nobody was buying!

1364
00:45:49.300 --> 00:45:50.868
I wasn't attractive enough.

1365
00:45:50.868 --> 00:45:52.334
No, no, no.

1366
00:45:52.334 --> 00:45:53.901
So they were very against it.

1367
00:45:53.901 --> 00:45:55.334
And in those days, which were 1958, 1960--

1368
00:45:55.334 --> 00:45:56.934
Yeah.

1369
00:45:56.934 --> 00:45:58.367
--my sister was the only girl in her class at

1370
00:45:58.367 --> 00:45:59.667
Columbia Law School.

1371
00:45:59.667 --> 00:46:01.167
And if I had said to them-- and I graduated Phi Beta Kappa--

1372
00:46:01.167 --> 00:46:02.801
very smart kid!

1373
00:46:02.801 --> 00:46:04.267
I know.

1374
00:46:04.267 --> 00:46:05.868
If I had-- in other words, if I had said to

1375
00:46:05.868 --> 00:46:07.567
them, ''I want to go on and be a rocket scientist,'' they would

1376
00:46:07.567 --> 00:46:08.667
have said, ''Here is the money.

1377
00:46:08.667 --> 00:46:09.734
Study forever.''

1378
00:46:09.734 --> 00:46:10.834
Yeah.

1379
00:46:10.834 --> 00:46:11.934
But here's a child that's smart that's saying,

1380
00:46:11.934 --> 00:46:13.033
''I want to be in show business''-- there were

1381
00:46:13.033 --> 00:46:14.100
hysterical scenes in

1382
00:46:14.100 --> 00:46:15.734
the house.

1383
00:46:15.734 --> 00:46:17.467
''You can't!''

1384
00:46:17.467 --> 00:46:19.267
''No, you'll ruin your life!

1385
00:46:19.267 --> 00:46:21.133
Ruin''-- which I probably would have said to my daughter, if

1386
00:46:21.133 --> 00:46:23.267
(unintelligible) were my parents.

1387
00:46:23.267 --> 00:46:24.601
''You're ruining your life.''

1388
00:46:24.601 --> 00:46:25.968
''Ruining your life.''

1389
00:46:25.968 --> 00:46:27.300
Yeah. Yet nothing--

1390
00:46:27.300 --> 00:46:28.667
Do you know-- do you know who I

1391
00:46:28.667 --> 00:46:30.000
brought into my house?

1392
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:31.667
No.

1393
00:46:31.667 --> 00:46:33.167
Before they were who they were?

1394
00:46:33.167 --> 00:46:34.801
No.

1395
00:46:34.801 --> 00:46:36.300
Woody Allen, Barbra Streisand, Richard Pryor.

1396
00:46:36.300 --> 00:46:38.033
I mean, George Carlin.

1397
00:46:38.033 --> 00:46:39.801
But before they were-- do you understand?

1398
00:46:39.801 --> 00:46:41.400
Yes, I do.

1399
00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:43.100
My mother in Larchmont, with her country club

1400
00:46:43.100 --> 00:46:44.868
ladies-- ''I'd like you to meet my gang.'' I don't blame them!

1401
00:46:44.868 --> 00:46:46.467
I know!

1402
00:46:46.467 --> 00:46:47.934
I don't blame them, looking back.

1403
00:46:47.934 --> 00:46:49.634
But I wanted it more than life itself.

1404
00:46:49.634 --> 00:46:51.501
I had no choice.

1405
00:46:51.501 --> 00:46:53.667
Why?

1406
00:46:53.667 --> 00:46:55.968
Why'd you want it more than life itself?

1407
00:46:55.968 --> 00:46:58.434
I never wanted anything else.

1408
00:46:58.434 --> 00:47:00.934
The minute I could put a thought together, it was show business.

1409
00:47:00.934 --> 00:47:03.334
I never wanted anything ever in my life.

1410
00:47:03.334 --> 00:47:05.868
And having to pay your dues didn't matter to you

1411
00:47:05.868 --> 00:47:08.267
one whit, if that what-- if that was what you had to do to learn

1412
00:47:08.267 --> 00:47:10.901
to be good, to make it all the way.

1413
00:47:10.901 --> 00:47:13.400
And I'm still paying my dues.

1414
00:47:13.400 --> 00:47:15.000
I still-- I've been up and down.

1415
00:47:15.000 --> 00:47:16.634
In the book-- I've been up and down three times--

1416
00:47:16.634 --> 00:47:18.267
Yeah.

1417
00:47:18.267 --> 00:47:19.901
--and I keep saying, ''Okay, I'll do it again.''

1418
00:47:19.901 --> 00:47:21.534
And each time, it gets a little more frightening

1419
00:47:21.534 --> 00:47:23.367
because you're a little older.

1420
00:47:23.367 --> 00:47:25.367
You know, when you're paying your dues at 21, it's cute.

1421
00:47:25.367 --> 00:47:27.133
Right.

1422
00:47:27.133 --> 00:47:28.701
When you wake up and you're 55, it's not so cute.

1423
00:47:28.701 --> 00:47:30.400
And when you wake up the last time at 60, it's terrifying.

1424
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:32.200
Terrifying?

1425
00:47:32.200 --> 00:47:34.067
Terrifying.

1426
00:47:34.067 --> 00:47:35.701
But then you say, ''I did it at 55.''

1427
00:47:35.701 --> 00:47:37.200
Yeah.

1428
00:47:37.200 --> 00:47:38.534
''I can do it again.''

1429
00:47:38.534 --> 00:47:40.067
You do this QVC thing.

1430
00:47:40.067 --> 00:47:41.467
Yeah. Thank God. Yeah, knock on anything, yeah.

1431
00:47:41.467 --> 00:47:43.000
All right.

1432
00:47:43.000 --> 00:47:44.400
But just stay for a second with this idea.

1433
00:47:44.400 --> 00:47:45.968
Yes.

1434
00:47:45.968 --> 00:47:47.400
You get on the-- I've never seen this, just--

1435
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:48.934
Yeah.

1436
00:47:48.934 --> 00:47:50.868
--and I know it's a terrific thing.

1437
00:47:50.868 --> 00:47:52.801
Yeah.

1438
00:47:52.801 --> 00:47:54.767
You get on there and you say, ''Hi.

1439
00:47:54.767 --> 00:47:56.234
I'm JOAN RIVERS. I've got some jewelry for you.''

1440
00:47:56.234 --> 00:47:57.701
Yes.

1441
00:47:57.701 --> 00:47:59.167
And what's your deal in this?

1442
00:47:59.167 --> 00:48:00.634
My deal is I design and I produce the jewelry and

1443
00:48:00.634 --> 00:48:02.100
I sell it with them and we split the profits.

1444
00:48:02.100 --> 00:48:03.400
I see.

1445
00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:04.734
And I--

1446
00:48:04.734 --> 00:48:06.033
So you've got this bauble that costs--

1447
00:48:06.033 --> 00:48:07.334
No. Well, the trouble was-- the reason we're so

1448
00:48:07.334 --> 00:48:08.634
successful-- and

1449
00:48:08.634 --> 00:48:10.200
we're international now.

1450
00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:11.801
Yeah.

1451
00:48:11.801 --> 00:48:13.601
We're in Germany.

1452
00:48:13.601 --> 00:48:15.434
We're all over England.

1453
00:48:15.434 --> 00:48:17.367
We're all over Canada.

1454
00:48:17.367 --> 00:48:19.133
It's-- we're going into the Pacific Rim, as they call it.

1455
00:48:19.133 --> 00:48:20.801
Oh, of course you are!

1456
00:48:20.801 --> 00:48:22.734
I didn't know you made--

1457
00:48:22.734 --> 00:48:24.701
It's out by Seattle, isn't it?

1458
00:48:24.701 --> 00:48:26.734
It's that way!

1459
00:48:26.734 --> 00:48:28.767
And learn to say-- (crosstalk) I didn't know what the margins

1460
00:48:28.767 --> 00:48:31.067
were, the-- so I thought you gave-- you got, like, a 10

1461
00:48:31.067 --> 00:48:33.267
percent mark-up, the way you do in show business with an agent.

1462
00:48:33.267 --> 00:48:35.434
So you thought, ''If it costs me, to put this

1463
00:48:35.434 --> 00:48:37.033
little piece of jewelry together, a dollar''--

1464
00:48:37.033 --> 00:48:38.601
Fifty-- a dollar.

1465
00:48:38.601 --> 00:48:40.167
--''a dollar, then I'll sell it for $1.25.''

1466
00:48:40.167 --> 00:48:41.734
Right, because that's fair. That's what an agent

1467
00:48:41.734 --> 00:48:43.334
would get, a $1.10.

1468
00:48:43.334 --> 00:48:45.234
So we ended up giving them--

1469
00:48:45.234 --> 00:48:47.133
The QVC people said, ''No, no!

1470
00:48:47.133 --> 00:48:48.667
You make it for 50 cents, you sell it for $2.''

1471
00:48:48.667 --> 00:48:50.167
No, they said--

1472
00:48:50.167 --> 00:48:51.434
''You get a dollar, we get a dollar.''

1473
00:48:51.434 --> 00:48:52.734
--''She's a moron.'' So they were buying this

1474
00:48:52.734 --> 00:48:54.000
great stuff from me, and still are, at very

1475
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:55.267
low margins and that's why we're successful,

1476
00:48:55.267 --> 00:48:56.534
because what you get

1477
00:48:56.534 --> 00:48:58.367
for, say, $50 is better than any other $50 pin because it's

1478
00:48:58.367 --> 00:49:00.701
really-- the margins are small.

1479
00:49:00.701 --> 00:49:02.701
But that's what made the company explode.

1480
00:49:02.701 --> 00:49:04.434
This is the JOAN RIVERS jewelry company?

1481
00:49:04.434 --> 00:49:06.000
JOAN RIVERS Classic Collection.

1482
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.667
Oh, sorry!

1483
00:49:07.667 --> 00:49:09.133
How's that?

1484
00:49:09.133 --> 00:49:10.601
That's great.

1485
00:49:10.601 --> 00:49:12.067
Yeah.

1486
00:49:12.067 --> 00:49:13.534
So can we say that today, because of this book,

1487
00:49:13.534 --> 00:49:15.000
which details bouncing back for the last time, as

1488
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:16.667
scared as you were at 60--

1489
00:49:16.667 --> 00:49:18.434
Yeah, did it again.

1490
00:49:18.434 --> 00:49:20.234
--the radio show--

1491
00:49:20.234 --> 00:49:22.801
Yeah.

1492
00:49:22.801 --> 00:49:25.000
--the Broadway play you--

1493
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:26.868
Broadway play I'm writing.

1494
00:49:26.868 --> 00:49:28.767
--you're writing--

1495
00:49:28.767 --> 00:49:30.467
E! Entertainment now I'm doing all that--

1496
00:49:30.467 --> 00:49:32.734
Yeah, with you and your daughter--

1497
00:49:32.734 --> 00:49:34.934
--the reviews--

1498
00:49:34.934 --> 00:49:36.567
--do that together--

1499
00:49:36.567 --> 00:49:38.267
My daughter and I do it together. So much fun.

1500
00:49:38.267 --> 00:49:39.734
You stand outside--

1501
00:49:39.734 --> 00:49:41.434
It's so much fun! And you interview them all--

1502
00:49:41.434 --> 00:49:43.200
Now, what--

1503
00:49:43.200 --> 00:49:45.033
--and then you talk about--

1504
00:49:45.033 --> 00:49:46.601
Well, what do you--

1505
00:49:46.601 --> 00:49:48.200
--going to--

1506
00:49:48.200 --> 00:49:49.767
--say to them?

1507
00:49:49.767 --> 00:49:51.234
Well, ''How are you? Are you excited? What's it

1508
00:49:51.234 --> 00:49:52.734
like? Is this really the wife?' '

1509
00:49:52.734 --> 00:49:54.000
Yeah.

1510
00:49:54.000 --> 00:49:55.234
You know, everything. And the-- and you get to

1511
00:49:55.234 --> 00:49:56.501
see all your friends.

1512
00:49:56.501 --> 00:49:57.767
But I-- you know what? If I walked up there, I

1513
00:49:57.767 --> 00:49:59.000
wouldn't-- I mean, if I--

1514
00:49:59.000 --> 00:50:00.267
You would laugh.

1515
00:50:00.267 --> 00:50:01.534
I'd walk up there. I'd know that as soon as I

1516
00:50:01.534 --> 00:50:02.801
left, you were going to say something

1517
00:50:02.801 --> 00:50:04.467
snide about me.

1518
00:50:04.467 --> 00:50:05.968
I would say it to your face.

1519
00:50:05.968 --> 00:50:07.367
Charlie, how can you be wearing--

1520
00:50:07.367 --> 00:50:08.901
What if I wear this tie?

1521
00:50:08.901 --> 00:50:12.300
--that-- yeah. No.

1522
00:50:12.300 --> 00:50:13.501
But a lot of them you don't-- what-- the reason the fashion

1523
00:50:13.501 --> 00:50:14.667
reviews have worked so well--

1524
00:50:14.667 --> 00:50:15.868
Yeah.

1525
00:50:15.868 --> 00:50:17.067
--is because we tell the truth. We

1526
00:50:17.067 --> 00:50:18.267
say who looks great.

1527
00:50:18.267 --> 00:50:19.567
Yeah.

1528
00:50:19.567 --> 00:50:20.801
But you also say who looks awful.

1529
00:50:20.801 --> 00:50:22.234
And you have to.

1530
00:50:22.234 --> 00:50:23.801
Roll tape.

1531
00:50:23.801 --> 00:50:25.467
Here it is.

1532
00:50:25.467 --> 00:50:26.968
Uh-oh!

1533
00:50:26.968 --> 00:50:28.367
This is very exciting because we're at Billy

1534
00:50:28.367 --> 00:50:29.634
Bob Thornton's and you're the-- what a great-looking wife!

1535
00:50:29.634 --> 00:50:31.100
Hi.

1536
00:50:31.100 --> 00:50:32.100
I'm Deirdre. (sp?

1537
00:50:32.100 --> 00:50:34.100
)

1538
00:50:34.100 --> 00:50:35.067
She was the wife before you were a major star.

1539
00:50:35.067 --> 00:50:36.067
Oh, then she really likes you!

1540
00:50:36.067 --> 00:50:37.434
How are you?

1541
00:50:37.434 --> 00:50:38.934
Kevin Spacey!

1542
00:50:38.934 --> 00:50:40.334
Wonderful to see you!

1543
00:50:40.334 --> 00:50:41.634
A simpler outfit than last year.

1544
00:50:41.634 --> 00:50:43.100
Well, I know you didn't like what

1545
00:50:43.100 --> 00:50:44.701
I wore last year.

1546
00:50:44.701 --> 00:50:46.167
No.

1547
00:50:46.167 --> 00:50:47.501
No, I'm not crazy about this year, either.

1548
00:50:47.501 --> 00:50:49.000
You thought I'd look like I should be selling

1549
00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:50.400
ice cream.

1550
00:50:50.400 --> 00:50:51.934
So you feel better this year?

1551
00:50:51.934 --> 00:50:53.567
This year you should be collecting

1552
00:50:53.567 --> 00:50:55.567
Dr. Kevorkian's people!

1553
00:50:55.567 --> 00:50:57.300
Much better than at the Golden Globes.

1554
00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:58.834
Thank you, darling.

1555
00:50:58.834 --> 00:51:00.267
I did it just for you because you said ''No more slits.''

1556
00:51:00.267 --> 00:51:01.567
You look wonderful. Much better.

1557
00:51:01.567 --> 00:51:02.801
I'm so glad you're listening!

1558
00:51:02.801 --> 00:51:03.968
You look beautiful.

1559
00:51:03.968 --> 00:51:05.367
I voted for you.

1560
00:51:05.367 --> 00:51:06.901
Oh, thanks!

1561
00:51:06.901 --> 00:51:08.567
Yeah.

1562
00:51:08.567 --> 00:51:10.300
I'm not a member of the Academy, though, so it doesn't--

1563
00:51:10.300 --> 00:51:12.100
(crosstalk) Now, what are you wearing?

1564
00:51:12.100 --> 00:51:13.701
Tell us what you finally picked to wear tonight.

1565
00:51:13.701 --> 00:51:15.167
I just want to know what you have to say this year.

1566
00:51:15.167 --> 00:51:16.734
I want to hear it now because last year you said I looked like

1567
00:51:16.734 --> 00:51:18.434
a swashbuckler.

1568
00:51:18.434 --> 00:51:19.968
Yes.

1569
00:51:19.968 --> 00:51:21.367
This year you look-- no, let--

1570
00:51:21.367 --> 00:51:22.634
I'm okay?

1571
00:51:22.634 --> 00:51:23.868
Well--

1572
00:51:23.868 --> 00:51:25.033
Are we all right this year?

1573
00:51:25.033 --> 00:51:26.167
You're fabulous!

1574
00:51:26.167 --> 00:51:27.234
Thank you. Thank you.

1575
00:51:27.234 --> 00:51:28.334
You're fabulous. You're great.

1576
00:51:28.334 --> 00:51:29.601
You're in the right color.

1577
00:51:29.601 --> 00:51:31.100
Everything is great.

1578
00:51:31.100 --> 00:51:32.434
The body-- you look great.

1579
00:51:32.434 --> 00:51:33.968
You look--

1580
00:51:33.968 --> 00:51:35.334
Did I miss again?

1581
00:51:35.334 --> 00:51:36.868
You didn't miss.

1582
00:51:36.868 --> 00:51:38.534
I didn't miss? It's closer?

1583
00:51:38.534 --> 00:51:39.734
You have the right color.

1584
00:51:39.734 --> 00:51:40.901
The right color? Because--

1585
00:51:40.901 --> 00:51:42.100
And you can carry it.

1586
00:51:42.100 --> 00:51:43.267
Because this is the only reason I come, to wait and see

1587
00:51:43.267 --> 00:51:44.467
what you're going to say.

1588
00:51:44.467 --> 00:51:45.734
You're getting better.

1589
00:51:45.734 --> 00:51:49.634
I'm getting better? Okay.

1590
00:51:49.634 --> 00:51:51.367
Next year I'll get it, though.

1591
00:51:51.367 --> 00:51:52.834
Sad note-- that was Billy Bob Thornton's--

1592
00:51:52.834 --> 00:51:54.334
Yeah, that was--

1593
00:51:54.334 --> 00:51:55.801
--wife. They're now involved in a little--

1594
00:51:55.801 --> 00:51:57.200
Yeah, and that's awful. That's-- that you hate to

1595
00:51:57.200 --> 00:51:58.567
see because--

1596
00:51:58.567 --> 00:51:59.934
Yeah.

1597
00:51:59.934 --> 00:52:01.300
--they were so happy that night. I mean, that was

1598
00:52:01.300 --> 00:52:02.567
right when he was cresting and he was becoming

1599
00:52:02.567 --> 00:52:03.868
recognized by everybody and he was--

1600
00:52:03.868 --> 00:52:05.167
Yeah.

1601
00:52:05.167 --> 00:52:06.467
--on the top and she finally is somebody's wife

1602
00:52:06.467 --> 00:52:07.734
and she's all bedecked and bejeweled and

1603
00:52:07.734 --> 00:52:09.067
they were so happy.

1604
00:52:09.067 --> 00:52:11.701
And then you read two weeks later it all goes ''Pfft!''

1605
00:52:11.701 --> 00:52:13.000
Yeah. And now the lawyers are-- it's in the

1606
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:14.334
hands of the lawyers.

1607
00:52:14.334 --> 00:52:15.868
And that-- yeah.

1608
00:52:15.868 --> 00:52:17.267
Oh, next it's going to happen to the Michael Jacksons.

1609
00:52:17.267 --> 00:52:18.601
I mean, I just get so depressed!

1610
00:52:18.601 --> 00:52:19.834
Oh, no!

1611
00:52:19.834 --> 00:52:21.501
Not that couple!

1612
00:52:21.501 --> 00:52:23.234
I know.

1613
00:52:23.234 --> 00:52:25.067
I know.

1614
00:52:25.067 --> 00:52:26.934
If anybody I thought had a real shot--

1615
00:52:26.934 --> 00:52:28.400
Oh!

1616
00:52:28.400 --> 00:52:29.868
--at a long-term relationship--

1617
00:52:29.868 --> 00:52:31.334
He's waiting for Mother's Day to celebrate.

1618
00:52:31.334 --> 00:52:32.801
(unintelligible) Listen. Look at the face of

1619
00:52:32.801 --> 00:52:34.267
this woman!

1620
00:52:34.267 --> 00:52:36.234
It's a happy woman!

1621
00:52:36.234 --> 00:52:38.200
It's a happy woman!

1622
00:52:38.200 --> 00:52:40.200
And when she was 60, she didn't know where the next dollar was

1623
00:52:40.200 --> 00:52:41.734
coming from--

1624
00:52:41.734 --> 00:52:43.300
Yeah.

1625
00:52:43.300 --> 00:52:44.834
--and now she's back.

1626
00:52:44.834 --> 00:52:46.267
I'm back, back and everybody can

1627
00:52:46.267 --> 00:52:47.701
be back and that's--

1628
00:52:47.701 --> 00:52:49.133
That's the story.

1629
00:52:49.133 --> 00:52:50.567
Billie Holliday-- Billie

1630
00:52:50.567 --> 00:52:52.000
Holliday! Judy Holliday--

1631
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:54.033
Billie Holliday! What century are you in?

1632
00:52:54.033 --> 00:52:55.801
Judy Holiday, who was an Academy Award winner,

1633
00:52:55.801 --> 00:52:57.367
once said to a friend of hers, when she had to audition, ''Hey,

1634
00:52:57.367 --> 00:52:58.801
it's only humiliation.'' And isn't that great, to think of it

1635
00:52:58.801 --> 00:53:00.133
like that?

1636
00:53:00.133 --> 00:53:01.901
It's only humiliation!

1637
00:53:01.901 --> 00:53:03.701
That's right.

1638
00:53:03.701 --> 00:53:05.567
So I'll do it.

1639
00:53:05.567 --> 00:53:07.434
I mean, ''I'll define me, not those''--

1640
00:53:07.434 --> 00:53:09.133
Yeah.

1641
00:53:09.133 --> 00:53:10.634
--''people out there.''

1642
00:53:10.634 --> 00:53:12.234
Yeah. And it--

1643
00:53:12.234 --> 00:53:13.968
''I know who I am.''

1644
00:53:13.968 --> 00:53:15.767
Yeah.

1645
00:53:15.767 --> 00:53:16.868
That's what you would say.

1646
00:53:16.868 --> 00:53:17.934
Yeah. Absolutely.

1647
00:53:17.934 --> 00:53:19.033
What's the best piece of advice in this book?

1648
00:53:19.033 --> 00:53:20.133
Two pieces of advice, really, okay? One is make

1649
00:53:20.133 --> 00:53:21.234
lists about the positive in your life. There's a little poem a

1650
00:53:21.234 --> 00:53:22.300
friend of mine who's a minister said--

1651
00:53:22.300 --> 00:53:24.000
''Yesterday is history.

1652
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:25.801
Tomorrow is a mystery.

1653
00:53:25.801 --> 00:53:27.367
Today is God's gift.

1654
00:53:27.367 --> 00:53:28.801
That's why it's called the present.'' And I know that's

1655
00:53:28.801 --> 00:53:30.133
silly and it's corny, but I know your life is awful, but you're

1656
00:53:30.133 --> 00:53:31.634
still wearing shoes.

1657
00:53:31.634 --> 00:53:33.000
You've still got an apartment.

1658
00:53:33.000 --> 00:53:34.534
Your husband is still with you.

1659
00:53:34.534 --> 00:53:36.167
You still have everything working.

1660
00:53:36.167 --> 00:53:37.901
You're not ill.

1661
00:53:37.901 --> 00:53:39.734
Look at the positives in your life.

1662
00:53:39.734 --> 00:53:41.634
That's one very important thing, which people forget, to say,

1663
00:53:41.634 --> 00:53:43.567
''This is okay, God, for the moment.'' And the second big

1664
00:53:43.567 --> 00:53:46.300
piece of advice is laughter, laughter, laughter.

1665
00:53:46.300 --> 00:53:48.734
When you laugh, it makes everything heal.

1666
00:53:48.734 --> 00:53:51.167
And never go to a funeral and go, ''Shh!

1667
00:53:51.167 --> 00:53:53.234
Don't laugh.'' Thank God you're laughing because--

1668
00:53:53.234 --> 00:53:55.133
Celebrate--

1669
00:53:55.133 --> 00:53:56.801
--healing's--

1670
00:53:56.801 --> 00:53:58.467
--the good in life.

1671
00:53:58.467 --> 00:54:00.133
Celebrate.

1672
00:54:00.133 --> 00:54:01.801
Right. Bouncing Back: I've Survived Everything

1673
00:54:01.801 --> 00:54:03.467
-- and I Mean Everything -- and You Can, Too-- JOAN RIVERS.

1674
00:54:03.467 --> 00:54:05.133
Thank you. A pleasure.

1675
00:54:05.133 --> 00:54:07.467
Good to see you.

1676
00:54:07.467 --> 
Thank you for joining us. See you next time.