WEBVTT

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We will schedule that taping for a later date.

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Her album has been released.

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Tonight, Obama's cabinet and the terrorist attacks in India,

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and a view of American foreign policy questions

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facing the new president-elect.

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We begin tonight with President-elect Obama's

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national security team and the terrorist

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attacks in Mumbai, India.

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In a press conference today in Chicago, President-elect Obama

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named the advisers who will shape and carry out his

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ambitious foreign policy agenda.

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They were Senator Hillary Clinton as secretary of state,

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Marine General Jim Jones as national security adviser, and

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campaign adviser Susan Rice as ambassador

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to the United Nations.

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Defense Secretary Robert Gates will remain at his post.

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Moderates praised the choice, but some liberals expressed

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concern that the advisers' views contrast with the vision

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that Obama outlined during the campaign.

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The president-elect said it was central to

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have different opinions.

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I assembled this team because I

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am a strong believer in strong

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personalities and strong opinions.

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I think that's how the best decisions are made.

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One of the dangers in a White House, based on my reading of

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history, is that you get wrapped up in groupthink, and

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everybody with everything, and there is no discussion and there

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are no dissenting views.

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So I'm going to be welcoming a vigorous debate inside the White

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House, but understand, I will be setting policy as president.

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I will be responsible for the vision that this team carries

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out, and I expect them to implement that vision once

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decisions are made.

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So as Harry Truman said, the buck will stop with me.

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The president-elect also named Eric

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Holder the country's first African-American attorney

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general and Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano to lead the

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Department of Homeland Security.

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The announcement came as foreign policy issues were back

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in focus, after last week's terror attack in Mumbai that

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killed at least 188 people.

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Earlier today, India summoned Pakistan's ambassador and

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demanded punishment against Pakistani militants who

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allegedly carried out the attacks.

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Pakistan has said that it will respond against groups within

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its borders if any ties to the attackers are found.

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Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice will visit both India and

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Pakistan later this week.

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Joining me now, Fareed Zakaria of "Newsweek International." In

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Washington, Steve Coll of the "New Yorker" magazine.

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In Boston, Nick Burns, former undersecretary of state for

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political affairs.

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He is now at Harvard University.

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I'm pleased to have all of them here.

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I begin first with Fareed Zakaria, as we talk about India

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and Mumbai, and your very personal connection to this

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hotel, as well as this story.

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Yes, well the Taj is like, you know, the Plaza

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was probably in the 1920s in New York, the one big hotel.

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Everyone had been there.

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Even people who were not very rich, who went there for a cup

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of coffee, who went there for a snack.

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You went there for some occasion -- a wedding, anniversary.

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So it plays a kind of central role in people's lives.

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In my case, it is very personal, because my mother at

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this point in her life is the editor of the Taj group of

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hotels magazine.

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So she actually has her offices there.

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Luckily, she wasn't there, but the offices are, of course,

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completely destroyed.

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It's -- and we know many people who died.

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The general manager of the hotel, his wife and two children

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were burned to death in the hotel.

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In the ensuing fires, in the --

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In the fires set --

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In many cases -- in some cases by

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the terrorists themselves.

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It was set by the terrorists.

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It was a grenade that wa launched right

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outside their room.

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So it is a terrible tragedy at the level of just human beings.

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And there is very little, you know, you can do to sort of

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convey the complete sense of chaos people in Bombay had,

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because if the Taj is that iconic place, the Oberoi is

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also one of the old grand hotels.

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And between the two of them, to have them both under siege, and

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in this chaotic way, which seemed as though it

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would never end.

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It went on for almost three days.

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What will be the consequences of it?

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There are obviously investigations going on.

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There are questions about whether the commandos responded

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soon enough.

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There are questions about whether they

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should have been forewarned.

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There are questions about Pakistan not -- ISI not being as

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observant of what was going on in Karachi and elsewhere.

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There are three points to make, I

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think, about it.

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One is it reveals something that anyone who's ever

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been to India knows.

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The Indian private sector functions fantastically, and the

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Indian government does not.

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And you see that all over India, wherever you go, and this

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tragically highlighted that.

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The government response was simply not adequate.

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There was bravery, of course, individual commandos.

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But the planning, the system simply did not respond.

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The second is that there is going to be pressure on this

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government, a weak coalition government, to do something.

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Because there are five state elections coming up.

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There is a national election coming up.

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And these guys, the current government, the ruling party is

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being attacked for being weak on terrorism.

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And so there will be some impulse to do something.

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And that gets us to the third point, which is how do you deal

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with this vis-a-vis Pakistan?

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Because there is a Pakistani connection.

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How deep, how official, nobody knows.

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But there is -- it is simply inconceivable that this does not

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have some connection to Pakistan --

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Did the government or ISI knew about it,

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knew that they were doing this, or had an opportunity to stop it

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and didn't?

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Or what?

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I think the best way to put it would be that

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the ISI has created, funded and sustained groups like this for

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three decades.

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And that it has -- turning the switch off is very difficult and

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complicated, and sometimes you think you've turned it off, but

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you haven't turned it off.

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There are a couple of people down, you know, down several

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levels who are still maintaining

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contacts with these people.

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I don't think it was an official policy in any sense.

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But I don't think that the Pakistani government has made a

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concerted, systemic, top to down decision that they are

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going to turn on every militant group, every jihadi group that

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they have sustained over the last three decades.

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And if -- until they do that, you will retain this culture of

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jihad and these pockets of jihadism that exist in Pakistan.

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So, the Indians have to decide how to deal with Pakistan on

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this issue.

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All right.

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Nick Burns, you and I talked before I went to India about

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this, and you came over during President Bush's trip and the

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negotiations over the nuclear issue.

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Secretary Rice, your former boss, is there, or is on her

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way there.

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Admiral Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

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What can the United States do now?

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What should it do?

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How does it affect us and our relationship

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with India and Pakistan?

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Well, Charlie, I think first, Fareed is right.

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This is India's 9/11.

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This is a searing event for the Indian people and the Indian

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political establishment.

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So I think there is two things the United States has to keep

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in mind.

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First of all, we've got to be very sensitive to support India.

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They have been a victim, not just last week in Mumbai, but on

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several occasions over the last two years, vicious terrorist

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attacks in major Indian cities.

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And that means that the delicate act for the United States will

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be the following -- we have to make sure that we do everything

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in our power, because we have good relations with both

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governments, to keep them apart.

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Twice in the last decade, these countries have come to the brink

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of war.

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They are both nuclear armed.

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So at all costs, we have to avoid a military conflict

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between Pakistan and India.

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Secondly, we have got to be very

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tough-minded with the Pakistanis.

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You saw the statement, you referred to it, of the Indian

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government this morning that pointed

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towards Pakistani citizens.

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We'll have to see what th investigation

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says when it is completed.

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But the Pakistani government has to be held accountable to

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take actions against these terrorist groups, if, in fact,

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it is proven that they were culpable.

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And that means that we have a dual

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problem with the Pakistanis.

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We not only have this new problem of having to push them

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to take further action against Kashmiri separatist groups;

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we've got to continue to pressure them against al Qaeda

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and the Taliban, and those two groups are going against

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American soldiers in Afghanistan.

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So I think what this means is, for the remaining period of time

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in the Bush administration and certainly for President-elect

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Obama when he comes in, after January 20th, South Asia becomes

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the strategic focal point for American foreign policy, along

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with the Middle East.

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What a change that is, say from 10 or 20 years ago, when Europe

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or perhaps even Asia were considered to be the

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geopolitical centerpoints of our policy.

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And this puts this issue squarely in the lap of the

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incoming administration.

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Steve, tell me where you think the Pakistanis

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are now and how this will impact them?

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Well, they have a divided government.

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They have a new and weak civilian government that has

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been reaching out to India, as past civilian governments of

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this type have done, to try to improve relations.

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But this government is at the same time trying to master its

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own army and intelligence services, so far

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with incomplete success.

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The Indian investigators and the United States have so far

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suggested that a particular group, Lashkar-e-Taiba, may have

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been connected to the attacks.

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It is very early in the investigations, and we should

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follow the evidence and see where it leads.

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But if it does prove to be Lashkar, this is an example of

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the broader problem that Fareed outlined.

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This is a group that is banned as a terrorist organization by

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the United States government.

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Its successor charity, which is called Jamaat ud Dawa, which

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sits outside Lahore, is also banned by the United States as a

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terrorist organization, but tolerated and sanctioned even as

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legitimate by the government of Pakistan.

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This is a Hezbollah-style organization, with thousands of

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offices and adherents.

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A very complicated problem.

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But it really highlights the complexity of U.S.

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goals in Pakistan.

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I make one other point.

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We have seen this movie before.

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In 2001, a similar group almost decapitated the elected

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parliament of India in December in a raid that was fortunately

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stopped before they could penetrate the Lok Sabha.

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In the aftermath, India threatened war, and Pakistan

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moved its armed forces from west to east to defend itself

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against a prospective invasion.

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Now, the United States, which is engaged in a very demanding

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counterinsurgency with Pakistani troops in the west of Pakistan,

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is going to have to try to persuade the Pakistan army not

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to do the same thing again, not to rush divisions from west to

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east in order to guard against prospective

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Indian military retaliation.

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So it may even be that Lashkar elements or Islamist elements

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provoked this attack precisely because they wanted to distract

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the Pakistan government and the United States from the campaign

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they are waging in the west of Pakistan.

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Charlie, it seems to me the key here and the

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opportunity is precisely the one that Nick was talking about,

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though I would toss in a third country.

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Because what is happening now is the terrorism problems in

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Pakistan, Afghanistan and India are all

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bleeding into one another.

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Because these groups are taking advantage

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of the same realities.

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There are certain pockets of ungovernable territory in

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Pakistan and Afghanistan.

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They hide there.

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There are certain elements within Pakistan and Afghanistan

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that support them.

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Maybe they have found a few pockets of

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support even in India.

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So the only way you are going to be able to handle this is for

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the three governments to recognize that they have a very

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strong common interest in dealing with it, and dealing

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with it almost at a region-wide level.

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So far, these governments don't look at it this way.

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They are very competitive.

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The Pakistanis have always wanted a weak Afghanistan.

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India and Pakistan have legendary rivalry.

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So the United States can be the honest broker, because we

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actually have very good relations

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with all three governments.

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Is it possible that this could be a catalyst

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for this kind of, as you expressed in "Newsweek," zero

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tolerance for jihadists?

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The Pakistani government is saying exactly the

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right things.

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I think it is a more difficult challenge to get every element

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of the Pakistani military to agree.

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Because look, for the Pakistani military, this has been the one

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great strategic success they've had really in their history,

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which is that at very low cost, they have destabilized India,

283
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destabilized Afghanistan, with the use of

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these, you know, mujahideen.

285
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In a way, this was their Contra war.

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Are they completely -- you know, are they willing to turn

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off the tap in a way that they cannot restart it?

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There is no question they have turned off the tap.

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But are they willing to destroy the plumbing so that they can

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never restart it again?

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That is the part I don't know.

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I would be interested to know what Steven and Nick think.

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Steven, what do you think?

294
00:12:59.467 --> 00:13:02.067
I don't think they are there yet.

295
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I think that they are closer to recognition that not only have

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they destabilized India and Afghanistan, but that they have

297
00:13:07.300 --> 00:13:10.067
destabilized Pakistan and created a threat against

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00:13:10.067 --> 00:13:12.968
themselves of significant dimension.

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00:13:12.968 --> 00:13:15.567
I'm not sure that the army high command and certainly not the

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intelligence services is yet convinced that they have

301
00:13:18.067 --> 00:13:20.701
created an existential threat to themselves, and so therefore

302
00:13:20.701 --> 00:13:23.300
they must destroy the plumbing.

303
00:13:23.300 --> 00:13:26.133
But there is more discourse about that question.

304
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There is certainly, as the bombs go off in Islamabad and in

305
00:13:28.501 --> 00:13:31.133
Peshawar, and across the Frontier, there is more

306
00:13:31.133 --> 00:13:33.934
recognition that this is a problem that is moving in the

307
00:13:33.934 --> 00:13:37.000
wrong direction.

308
00:13:37.000 --> 00:13:40.167
It would be, you know, it would be terrific if it did create

309
00:13:40.167 --> 00:13:42.868
the opportunity that Fareed outlines, but I don't think

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00:13:42.868 --> 00:13:45.400
that, as he suggests -- as he himself says -- there is not

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that consensus present between the civilian and military

312
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leadership of Pakistan yet.

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A number -- Nick, a number of

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00:13:51.300 --> 00:13:54.701
things have happened. No.

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00:13:54.701 --> 00:13:56.767
1, we had the assassination of Benazir Bhutto.

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Two, we have this incident.

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Three, we have the resurgence of the Taliban.

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00:14:02.033 --> 00:14:04.400
Put into all of that the context of what President-elect

319
00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:06.801
Obama faces and what are his choices and what

320
00:14:06.801 --> 00:14:09.100
ought to be his initiatives?

321
00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:11.067
Well, Charlie, as I said before, I think that

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00:14:11.067 --> 00:14:12.801
he will be the first American president who would have to look

323
00:14:12.801 --> 00:14:14.200
at this particular region of the world, South Asia, and

324
00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:15.601
say --

325
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It's number one?

326
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.400
It's now maybe twin number

327
00:14:18.400 --> 00:14:21.868
one, with the Middle East.

328
00:14:21.868 --> 00:14:23.667
We have never had a situation like this in American history.

329
00:14:23.667 --> 00:14:25.767
I think Fareed is right, Charlie.

330
00:14:25.767 --> 00:14:28.033
There is an opportunity for the United States that flows out of

331
00:14:28.033 --> 00:14:30.033
this crisis.

332
00:14:30.033 --> 00:14:32.400
Secretary Rice will pick that up and perhaps hand this baton

333
00:14:32.400 --> 00:14:34.934
off to President Obama and to Hillary Clinton.

334
00:14:34.934 --> 00:14:37.067
And here is the opportunity.

335
00:14:37.067 --> 00:14:39.267
The United States has uniquely good relations with the three

336
00:14:39.267 --> 00:14:41.601
principal actors in this drama -- Afghanistan,

337
00:14:41.601 --> 00:14:44.167
Pakistan and India.

338
00:14:44.167 --> 00:14:47.000
And the United States can be, I think, an effective

339
00:14:47.000 --> 00:14:49.734
intermediary, particularly between Pakistan and India.

340
00:14:49.734 --> 00:14:52.033
In the last few years, those two governments had actually

341
00:14:52.033 --> 00:14:54.467
made some progress in what they call their composite dialogue.

342
00:14:54.467 --> 00:14:57.167
They are trying to work out bilateral problems between the

343
00:14:57.167 --> 00:15:00.234
two countries.

344
00:15:00.234 --> 00:15:02.767
If we could open up those and reopen those channels of

345
00:15:02.767 --> 00:15:05.200
communication, and then go on to the really big issue -- can

346
00:15:05.200 --> 00:15:07.701
there be a settlement of the Kashmir conflict 60

347
00:15:07.701 --> 00:15:10.267
years after partition?

348
00:15:10.267 --> 00:15:12.734
It's an enormously complicated problem.

349
00:15:12.734 --> 00:15:14.834
I'm not saying it is going to be easy at all, but it seems to

350
00:15:14.834 --> 00:15:16.901
me that in the aftermath of this particular crisis, of this

351
00:15:16.901 --> 00:15:19.334
terrorist attack, you would want to go

352
00:15:19.334 --> 00:15:21.968
at those two problems.

353
00:15:21.968 --> 00:15:24.834
There is also Iran and Iraq, Nick.

354
00:15:24.834 --> 00:15:27.200
Do you assume now that the Iranians are much closer to

355
00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:29.534
having a nuclear weapon, and at some point we may very well

356
00:15:29.534 --> 00:15:32.033
have to face the idea that now that they are going to have it,

357
00:15:32.033 --> 00:15:34.767
what do we do about it?

358
00:15:34.767 --> 00:15:37.701
Well, if you read the reports of Mohamed

359
00:15:37.701 --> 00:15:40.634
ElBaradei and the IAEA, the most recent public report that

360
00:15:40.634 --> 00:15:43.634
came out, the Iranians have made dramatic progress in terms

361
00:15:43.634 --> 00:15:46.701
of the research for -- on the enrichment process, which of

362
00:15:46.701 --> 00:15:49.701
course is a critical stage to becoming nuclear capable.

363
00:15:49.701 --> 00:15:52.701
I think here, again, I actually think that what Barack Obama was

364
00:15:52.701 --> 00:15:55.200
saying during the campaign was absolutely correct.

365
00:15:55.200 --> 00:15:57.834
We have had a frozen relationship for 30 years.

366
00:15:57.834 --> 00:16:00.467
We have had no meaningful contact with

367
00:16:00.467 --> 00:16:02.968
the Iranian government.

368
00:16:02.968 --> 00:16:05.634
The first thing that he should do would be to try to open up

369
00:16:05.634 --> 00:16:08.501
some kind of negotiations with the Iranians, because it will

370
00:16:08.501 --> 00:16:11.400
have twin benefits for the United States.

371
00:16:11.400 --> 00:16:14.400
If we get very lucky, very lucky, we may be able to make

372
00:16:14.400 --> 00:16:17.601
some progress to deflect them from their nuclear ambitions.

373
00:16:17.601 --> 00:16:20.634
If, more likely, the negotiations fail, it will

374
00:16:20.634 --> 00:16:24.100
actually strengthen the hand of the United States to go back to

375
00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:27.701
countries like China and Russia and the Europeans and argue for

376
00:16:27.701 --> 00:16:31.367
much tougher economic sanctions against the Iranians.

377
00:16:31.367 --> 00:16:34.767
But I do think you are right to link the events in South Asia to

378
00:16:34.767 --> 00:16:38.200
the Iran question, because both India and Pakistan will be very

379
00:16:38.200 --> 00:16:41.400
important potential partners in any kind of diplomatic effort to

380
00:16:41.400 --> 00:16:44.300
convince the Iranians that their interests will be better

381
00:16:44.300 --> 00:16:46.968
served by standing down from nuclear weapons ambitions and

382
00:16:46.968 --> 00:16:49.667
entering into some kind of negotiation with the United

383
00:16:49.667 --> 00:16:52.634
States and these other countries.

384
00:16:52.634 --> 00:16:55.100
What about Afghanistan, Steve?

385
00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:57.834
What are the opportunities there for this new president,

386
00:16:57.834 --> 00:17:00.868
and will, as some people are asking, some kind of surge work

387
00:17:00.868 --> 00:17:03.534
there or not?

388
00:17:03.534 --> 00:17:05.767
Well, the new president is going to receive a

389
00:17:05.767 --> 00:17:07.968
series of policy reviews aimed at completely resetting American

390
00:17:07.968 --> 00:17:10.200
strategy in Afghanistan.

391
00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.167
One of those --

392
00:17:12.167 --> 00:17:14.100
From General Petraeus, I assume.

393
00:17:14.100 --> 00:17:16.067
One of them from Central Command

394
00:17:16.067 --> 00:17:18.100
and General Petraeus.

395
00:17:18.100 --> 00:17:20.767
The chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Mike Mullen, has one

396
00:17:20.767 --> 00:17:23.400
under way, and the outgoing Bush administration is going to

397
00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:25.934
hand off a big interagency review of similar character.

398
00:17:25.934 --> 00:17:28.567
And I think the outline of the proposition is several fold.

399
00:17:28.567 --> 00:17:31.367
First, there are presidential elections scheduled in

400
00:17:31.367 --> 00:17:34.133
Afghanistan for September of next year.

401
00:17:34.133 --> 00:17:36.501
The surge will be focused on setting conditions for

402
00:17:36.501 --> 00:17:39.534
successful elections and relegitimizing the government of

403
00:17:39.534 --> 00:17:42.067
Afghanistan and its broad strategic context -- contest

404
00:17:42.067 --> 00:17:45.033
with the Taliban.

405
00:17:45.033 --> 00:17:47.801
Another emphasis will be on building indigenous Afghan

406
00:17:47.801 --> 00:17:50.400
security forces.

407
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.234
The Afghan national army is rated as pretty good, but

408
00:17:53.234 --> 00:17:56.234
nowhere near well enough resourced, hasn't been the

409
00:17:56.234 --> 00:17:59.267
subject of enough attention.

410
00:17:59.267 --> 00:18:01.801
The Afghan national police is far beyond where it needs to be

411
00:18:01.801 --> 00:18:04.601
to create conditions for Afghans to take the lead against

412
00:18:04.601 --> 00:18:07.534
the Taliban and to permit the United States to draw back from

413
00:18:07.534 --> 00:18:11.200
direct combat.

414
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:14.801
I don't think anybody thinks a surge with American forces in a

415
00:18:14.801 --> 00:18:18.133
lead combat role is a good prescription for Afghanistan.

416
00:18:18.133 --> 00:18:20.934
In analogous but not quite exact way, the surge would be an

417
00:18:20.934 --> 00:18:23.267
interregnum, to purchase time for Afghan institutions to take

418
00:18:23.267 --> 00:18:25.267
the lead two or three years down the line, and to hold a

419
00:18:25.267 --> 00:18:27.033
successful election.

420
00:18:27.033 --> 00:18:29.000
All right.

421
00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:30.734
I want to pull this back now.

422
00:18:30.734 --> 00:18:32.534
There's this "Newsweek" cover.

423
00:18:32.534 --> 00:18:34.400
This is the last paragraph in this piece you wrote, a very

424
00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:36.434
good piece.

425
00:18:36.434 --> 00:18:39.067
"This is a rare moment in history.

426
00:18:39.067 --> 00:18:41.634
A more responsive America, better attuned to the rest of

427
00:18:41.634 --> 00:18:43.868
the world, could help create a new set of ideas and

428
00:18:43.868 --> 00:18:46.167
institutions, an architecture of peace for the 21st century that

429
00:18:46.167 --> 00:18:48.400
would bring stability, prosperity and dignity to the

430
00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:50.834
lives of billions of people.

431
00:18:50.834 --> 00:18:53.501
Ten years from now, the world will have moved on.

432
00:18:53.501 --> 00:18:56.534
The rising powers will have become unwilling to accept an

433
00:18:56.534 --> 00:18:59.167
agenda conceived in Washington or London or Brussels.

434
00:18:59.167 --> 00:19:01.467
But at this time and for this man, there is an unique

435
00:19:01.467 --> 00:19:03.767
opportunity to use American power to reshape the world.

436
00:19:03.767 --> 00:19:05.934
This is his moment.

437
00:19:05.934 --> 00:19:08.100
He should seize it."

438
00:19:08.100 --> 00:19:10.300
How does he seize the moment?

439
00:19:10.300 --> 00:19:12.467
Well, the great danger in

440
00:19:12.467 --> 00:19:14.634
foreign policy is that

441
00:19:14.634 --> 00:19:17.100
everything is so urgent that you have to respond to it.

442
00:19:17.100 --> 00:19:19.767
And you forget what is really important.

443
00:19:19.767 --> 00:19:23.100
You know, you become entirely reactive.

444
00:19:23.100 --> 00:19:26.133
It's entirely understandable.

445
00:19:26.133 --> 00:19:29.501
And I think what he should do, what Obama should do is sit

446
00:19:29.501 --> 00:19:32.267
back and ask himself, what do I want the world to look like two

447
00:19:32.267 --> 00:19:35.133
years from now, four years from now, six years from now?

448
00:19:35.133 --> 00:19:37.534
And try to sketch out an architecture that he wants to

449
00:19:37.534 --> 00:19:40.234
get to.

450
00:19:40.234 --> 00:19:42.968
And then use these crises, you know, never let a

451
00:19:42.968 --> 00:19:45.634
crisis go to waste.

452
00:19:45.634 --> 00:19:48.734
Use these crises to push forward toward that vision,

453
00:19:48.734 --> 00:19:52.133
rather than just episodically putting out fires.

454
00:19:52.133 --> 00:19:55.467
There clearly seems to be, because of the

455
00:19:55.467 --> 00:19:58.801
success of, in terms of how the world sees President-elect

456
00:19:58.801 --> 00:20:02.267
Obama, looking to America to see what initiatives it has,

457
00:20:02.267 --> 00:20:05.667
what values it's going to promote, and how well it is

458
00:20:05.667 --> 00:20:08.834
prepared to listen to other people around the world.

459
00:20:08.834 --> 00:20:11.601
Nick, what ought to be -- what are your hopes for a new

460
00:20:11.601 --> 00:20:14.300
administration, now that we know what the team is?

461
00:20:14.300 --> 00:20:16.834
Well, first, I think it is an exceptionally

462
00:20:16.834 --> 00:20:19.267
impressive team.

463
00:20:19.267 --> 00:20:21.934
It's just about the most powerful team that President-

464
00:20:21.934 --> 00:20:24.734
elect Obama could have put together.

465
00:20:24.734 --> 00:20:27.400
And the fact that he heads it, and he has this unique

466
00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:29.667
credibility worldwide, and we saw that in the days following

467
00:20:29.667 --> 00:20:31.968
our election, means that he can lead in a different way.

468
00:20:31.968 --> 00:20:34.567
Here is what I would say, Charlie, in answer to your very

469
00:20:34.567 --> 00:20:37.000
good question.

470
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.667
The United States has to lead because we are still the

471
00:20:39.667 --> 00:20:42.033
dominant power, but we cannot lead alone.

472
00:20:42.033 --> 00:20:44.701
We have to lead in concert with others.

473
00:20:44.701 --> 00:20:47.601
We have to make the transition to the global era from the

474
00:20:47.601 --> 00:20:50.400
post-Cold War era, if you will.

475
00:20:50.400 --> 00:20:53.901
And that means that we have to recognize one central fact.

476
00:20:53.901 --> 00:20:57.300
The great majority of problems that the United States is going

477
00:20:57.300 --> 00:21:00.534
to face around the world -- terrorism and climate change,

478
00:21:00.534 --> 00:21:03.467
and drug and crime cartels, and all the other problems of --

479
00:21:03.467 --> 00:21:06.601
that proliferation that we have talked about -- none of them

480
00:21:06.601 --> 00:21:09.868
lend themselves to unilateral behavior by the United States,

481
00:21:09.868 --> 00:21:13.000
and certainly not to isolationism.

482
00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:16.601
Is it healthy and good and positive that we had

483
00:21:16.601 --> 00:21:20.300
not the G-8 or the G-7, but the G-20, which showed an opening --

484
00:21:20.300 --> 00:21:23.434
an opening to the reality of the new world, where the rest of

485
00:21:23.434 --> 00:21:26.300
us -- is a term that Fareed has, in a sense defined, is now

486
00:21:26.300 --> 00:21:28.667
sort of in place and recognized as players?

487
00:21:28.667 --> 00:21:31.167
Absolutely.

488
00:21:31.167 --> 00:21:33.267
Without any question.

489
00:21:33.267 --> 00:21:35.167
Without any question.

490
00:21:35.167 --> 00:21:36.968
I think that President Bush was the one who insisted on that.

491
00:21:36.968 --> 00:21:38.801
Exactly.

492
00:21:38.801 --> 00:21:40.667
That is my impression too.

493
00:21:40.667 --> 00:21:42.334
And China --

494
00:21:42.334 --> 00:21:44.067
Unlike the French.

495
00:21:44.067 --> 00:21:45.968
China is now the largest creditor to the

496
00:21:45.968 --> 00:21:47.901
United States.

497
00:21:47.901 --> 00:21:50.133
It had to be at the table for that G-20 meeting.

498
00:21:50.133 --> 00:21:52.300
And to get to another point, we have got to modernize these

499
00:21:52.300 --> 00:21:54.434
antique institutions like the U.N.

500
00:21:54.434 --> 00:21:56.300
Security Council, that reflect the world of the Second World

501
00:21:56.300 --> 00:21:57.934
War and not the world of the 21st century.

502
00:21:57.934 --> 00:21:59.634
That is the kind of architecture you

503
00:21:59.634 --> 00:22:01.434
are talking about.

504
00:22:01.434 --> 00:22:03.300
Precisely.

505
00:22:03.300 --> 00:22:05.334
One last point, let me go to Steve.

506
00:22:05.334 --> 00:22:07.267
The fundamental choice we face was actually

507
00:22:07.267 --> 00:22:09.701
nicely laid out by Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney in the

508
00:22:09.701 --> 00:22:11.767
first Bush administration, said we should have a grand strategy.

509
00:22:11.767 --> 00:22:14.100
They agreed with me on this.

510
00:22:14.100 --> 00:22:16.767
And our grand strategy should be to prevent the emergence of any

511
00:22:16.767 --> 00:22:19.400
new powers.

512
00:22:19.400 --> 00:22:21.634
So it was really an attempt to fight these changes.

513
00:22:21.634 --> 00:22:24.200
What I think Nick and I are saying is we need to embrace

514
00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.667
them and recognize that they are actually a good thing for

515
00:22:26.667 --> 00:22:29.033
the United States.

516
00:22:29.033 --> 00:22:31.601
We can still be a central -- the central player in a bigger,

517
00:22:31.601 --> 00:22:34.434
richer, more powerful world.

518
00:22:34.434 --> 00:22:37.367
Steve, I have come to you finally because you

519
00:22:37.367 --> 00:22:40.667
have written a great book about the bin Laden family.

520
00:22:40.667 --> 00:22:44.300
When I used to interview people all the time, they would tell me

521
00:22:44.300 --> 00:22:47.868
that the number one problem facing America was terrorism.

522
00:22:47.868 --> 00:22:51.234
Is it still, or have we in a sense been able to transcend

523
00:22:51.234 --> 00:22:54.634
that to a larger question of creating a world order?

524
00:22:54.634 --> 00:22:58.133
Well, terrorism presents a low probability, but

525
00:22:58.133 --> 00:23:01.868
still potentially catastrophic threat to the United States.

526
00:23:01.868 --> 00:23:05.667
If stateless groups that were undeterrable were to acquire and

527
00:23:05.667 --> 00:23:09.434
use weapons of mass destruction, we would be faced with a

528
00:23:09.434 --> 00:23:13.267
Constitution-changing, if not entirely existential threat

529
00:23:13.267 --> 00:23:16.400
that nobody wants to draw (ph) attention to.

530
00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:19.000
I do think, however, that the crisis that we can't afford to

531
00:23:19.000 --> 00:23:21.701
go -- let to go to waste is probably not terrorism, but the

532
00:23:21.701 --> 00:23:24.801
economic downturn --

533
00:23:24.801 --> 00:23:27.734
Exactly.

534
00:23:27.734 --> 00:23:30.968
-- that now grips the entire globe.

535
00:23:30.968 --> 00:23:34.701
And that is the pressing issue of the next two or three or four

536
00:23:34.701 --> 00:23:38.200
years, and it does create an opportunity for

537
00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:41.567
generations-spanning change of a progressive kind, in the sense

538
00:23:41.567 --> 00:23:45.000
of the G-20 and kind of trying to lead into the inevitable new

539
00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:48.467
order, and also to address the imbalances and to create middle

540
00:23:48.467 --> 00:23:51.901
classes around the world that will provide a basis for

541
00:23:51.901 --> 00:23:54.734
political stability and sustainable prosperity globally.

542
00:23:54.734 --> 00:23:57.367
And fighting terrorism is not going to take us there, but

543
00:23:57.367 --> 00:23:59.834
using this economic crisis to transform global

544
00:23:59.834 --> 00:24:02.200
institutions might.

545
00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:04.901
Steve Coll, thank you very much.

546
00:24:04.901 --> 00:24:07.701
Nick Burns, who is now at the Kennedy School at Harvard.

547
00:24:07.701 --> 00:24:10.234
And Fareed Zakaria, not only "Newsweek International" editor,

548
00:24:10.234 --> 00:24:12.634
but "GPS" is on CNN at 1:00 Eastern time.

549
00:24:12.634 --> 00:24:15.367
Thank you, my friend.

550
00:24:15.367 --> 00:24:18.667
Pleasure.

551
00:24:18.667 --> 00:24:21.400
We'll be right back and we'll meet the

552
00:24:21.400 --> 00:24:23.701
ambassador from Pakistan, talk about some of these issues, as

553
00:24:23.701 --> 00:24:28.367
well as a remarkable couple who were at the

554
00:24:28.367 --> 00:24:32.367
Taj hotel and survived.

555
00:24:32.367 --> 00:24:36.000
Stay with us.

556
00:24:36.000 --> 00:24:39.567
Joining me now from Washington is Pakistan's ambassador to the

557
00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:43.033
United States, Husain Haqqani.

558
00:24:43.033 --> 00:24:46.434
His government said in a statement today that Pakistan's

559
00:24:46.434 --> 00:24:49.467
response to last week's terror attacks, quote, "needed to match

560
00:24:49.467 --> 00:24:52.701
the sentiments expressed by the leadership, that it wants a

561
00:24:52.701 --> 00:24:55.400
better relationship with India." You should know that we

562
00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:58.167
invited India's ambassador to the United States to the

563
00:24:58.167 --> 00:25:00.501
program, and we hope to talk to officials from

564
00:25:00.501 --> 00:25:02.734
India at some point.

565
00:25:02.734 --> 00:25:05.601
I am pleased to have the ambassador back on

566
00:25:05.601 --> 00:25:07.968
this program. Welcome.

567
00:25:07.968 --> 00:25:10.801
Pleasure being here, Charlie.

568
00:25:10.801 --> 00:25:13.334
Just tell me what the consequences

569
00:25:13.334 --> 00:25:16.000
of this event are?

570
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:18.367
The carnage is just unacceptable for anyone in

571
00:25:18.367 --> 00:25:21.033
the entire civilized world.

572
00:25:21.033 --> 00:25:23.901
We have had similar incidents in Pakistan.

573
00:25:23.901 --> 00:25:27.167
I was on your show last year.

574
00:25:27.167 --> 00:25:30.400
Soon after Benazir Bhutto was assassinated in a terrorist

575
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:33.200
attack, we have had several attacks in Pakistan.

576
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:35.801
So India and Pakistan have now an opportunity to realize that

577
00:25:35.801 --> 00:25:38.534
they are both victims of terrorism, that they are not the

578
00:25:38.534 --> 00:25:41.467
enemy to each other.

579
00:25:41.467 --> 00:25:43.901
Terrorism is their joint enemy.

580
00:25:43.901 --> 00:25:46.067
And we need to get over the burden of the past and work

581
00:25:46.067 --> 00:25:48.400
together and make sure that we get rid of terrorists wherever

582
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:50.501
they are.

583
00:25:50.501 --> 00:25:52.767
Now, Pakistan has had problems.

584
00:25:52.767 --> 00:25:54.801
And you and I have discussed them before, and many other

585
00:25:54.801 --> 00:25:57.367
people have too.

586
00:25:57.367 --> 00:25:59.934
But the new government in Pakistan is trying to get its

587
00:25:59.934 --> 00:26:02.367
hands around this problem.

588
00:26:02.367 --> 00:26:04.801
We have improved our intelligence apparatus.

589
00:26:04.801 --> 00:26:06.868
We are going after the terrorists in the border area

590
00:26:06.868 --> 00:26:09.501
with Afghanistan.

591
00:26:09.501 --> 00:26:11.968
Our relationship with Afghanistan

592
00:26:11.968 --> 00:26:14.734
has improved considerably.

593
00:26:14.734 --> 00:26:17.033
And Pakistan and India have been trying to improve relations as

594
00:26:17.033 --> 00:26:19.968
well over the last several weeks.

595
00:26:19.968 --> 00:26:22.901
So the terrorists, through this attack, are

596
00:26:22.901 --> 00:26:25.767
trying to attack India.

597
00:26:25.767 --> 00:26:28.300
They are trying to undermine the fledgling democracy in Pakistan

598
00:26:28.300 --> 00:26:31.200
by provoking tensions between India and Pakistan.

599
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:34.300
And they are undermining th peace process

600
00:26:34.300 --> 00:26:37.367
between India and Pakistan.

601
00:26:37.367 --> 00:26:40.934
While our heart goes out to those who feel very angry in

602
00:26:40.934 --> 00:26:44.667
India, as well as hurt and pained, we also want to make

603
00:26:44.667 --> 00:26:47.868
sure that a message is understood in India, that

604
00:26:47.868 --> 00:26:51.000
Pakistan is ready to make -- take a giant leap forward and

605
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.000
make sure that our countries do not follow old patterns, and

606
00:26:54.000 --> 00:26:57.601
that we break the pattern.

607
00:26:57.601 --> 00:27:00.701
Now, terrorists train everywhere in the world.

608
00:27:00.701 --> 00:27:03.801
Terrorists are non- state actors.

609
00:27:03.801 --> 00:27:06.901
We all know that al Qaeda, for example, had members from

610
00:27:06.901 --> 00:27:09.467
several countries.

611
00:27:09.467 --> 00:27:11.667
The 9/11 attackers came from several different countries,

612
00:27:11.667 --> 00:27:14.000
including some that are very closely aligned

613
00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:16.734
with the United States.

614
00:27:16.734 --> 00:27:19.667
So these are individuals.

615
00:27:19.667 --> 00:27:22.634
Most of them were from Saudi Arabia.

616
00:27:22.634 --> 00:27:25.667
Well, and some of the countries as well, yes.

617
00:27:25.667 --> 00:27:28.934
The important thing is that Pakistan has to take an

618
00:27:28.934 --> 00:27:31.667
immediate view, which is as soon as evidence is shared with

619
00:27:31.667 --> 00:27:33.934
us about which individuals and what groups we have to go after,

620
00:27:33.934 --> 00:27:36.334
if there is evidence to that effect, we will definitely act

621
00:27:36.334 --> 00:27:38.634
on that.

622
00:27:38.634 --> 00:27:40.634
All right.

623
00:27:40.634 --> 00:27:42.767
But let me just interrupt you to say the following.

624
00:27:42.767 --> 00:27:44.934
One, you know, that it has been identified as Lashkar-e-Taiba

625
00:27:44.934 --> 00:27:47.067
organization to blame.

626
00:27:47.067 --> 00:27:49.200
And let me read for you now from a piece in today

627
00:27:49.200 --> 00:27:51.367
- - a column in

628
00:27:51.367 --> 00:27:53.801
today's "New York Times" by William Kristol, in which he

629
00:27:53.801 --> 00:27:56.434
says the following.

630
00:27:56.434 --> 00:27:59.334
"It is not hard to find.

631
00:27:59.334 --> 00:28:02.300
Ten minutes of Googling will bring you to a fine article,

632
00:28:02.300 --> 00:28:05.367
'The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups' from the April

633
00:28:05.367 --> 00:28:08.100
2005 issue of Current Trends in Islamic Ideology.

634
00:28:08.100 --> 00:28:11.133
It is by the respected journalist and diplomat Husain

635
00:28:11.133 --> 00:28:14.501
Haqqani, who, as it happens, is now Pakistan's ambassador to the

636
00:28:14.501 --> 00:28:17.634
United States.

637
00:28:17.634 --> 00:28:20.501
'Lashkar-e-Taiba,' Haqqani explains, 'is a jihadi group of

638
00:28:20.501 --> 00:28:23.167
Wahhabi persuasion, backed by Saudi money and protected by

639
00:28:23.167 --> 00:28:25.634
Pakistani intelligence services.'"

640
00:28:25.634 --> 00:28:27.767
That's just -- Charlie --

641
00:28:27.767 --> 00:28:31.167
(inaudible) serious question that the group

642
00:28:31.167 --> 00:28:35.000
that is said to have done this is protected by Pakistani

643
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:38.467
intelligence services.

644
00:28:38.467 --> 00:28:41.701
Charlie, when this piece was written, the

645
00:28:41.701 --> 00:28:45.100
facts were reflected in the piece.

646
00:28:45.100 --> 00:28:48.200
I think that the situation on the ground in Pakistan has

647
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.033
changed, and we will find that out over the next few days,

648
00:28:51.033 --> 00:28:54.033
when evidence is presented, when we know who we are blaming.

649
00:28:54.033 --> 00:28:56.501
Right now, look, let's be very honest.

650
00:28:56.501 --> 00:28:59.334
It's hardly been a few days.

651
00:28:59.334 --> 00:29:02.167
The interrogation of the one person who has been

652
00:29:02.167 --> 00:29:04.868
arrested is incomplete.

653
00:29:04.868 --> 00:29:07.834
But as soon as it is identified, as far as groups like the ones

654
00:29:07.834 --> 00:29:10.634
that have been named are concerned, Pakistan intends to

655
00:29:10.634 --> 00:29:13.767
put all terrorist groups out of business.

656
00:29:13.767 --> 00:29:17.100
We are not going to deal with terrorists on the basis of

657
00:29:17.100 --> 00:29:19.834
their ideology or of their proclaimed aims.

658
00:29:19.834 --> 00:29:22.701
We are going to deal with them on the basis of their actions.

659
00:29:22.701 --> 00:29:25.467
So all terrorists are going to be put out

660
00:29:25.467 --> 00:29:27.801
of action in Pakistan.

661
00:29:27.801 --> 00:29:30.567
It's going to be a stage by stage process, depending on our

662
00:29:30.567 --> 00:29:33.434
state's capacity, our government's ability

663
00:29:33.434 --> 00:29:35.934
to go after them.

664
00:29:35.934 --> 00:29:38.667
But I think that the era when people saw a connection between

665
00:29:38.667 --> 00:29:41.501
elements of the Pakistani state and various militant groups,

666
00:29:41.501 --> 00:29:44.334
that era is over.

667
00:29:44.334 --> 00:29:47.100
The elected government of Pakistan has created and is in

668
00:29:47.100 --> 00:29:50.200
the process of creating greater transparency about the

669
00:29:50.200 --> 00:29:53.300
relationships between our intelligence services and

670
00:29:53.300 --> 00:29:56.200
various militant groups within our country.

671
00:29:56.200 --> 00:29:58.901
Let me continue with Mr. ristol's column today.

672
00:29:58.901 --> 00:30:01.667
Speaking of you, he says you "noted that Lashkar-e-Taiba has

673
00:30:01.667 --> 00:30:04.634
adopted a maximalist agenda for global jihad.

674
00:30:04.634 --> 00:30:07.534
Indeed, the political arm of the group has conveniently

675
00:30:07.534 --> 00:30:10.133
published a pamphlet, 'Why We Are Waging Jihad,' that lays

676
00:30:10.133 --> 00:30:13.367
out all kinds of reasons why the United States, Israel and India

677
00:30:13.367 --> 00:30:17.133
are existential enemies of Islam."

678
00:30:17.133 --> 00:30:21.100
Tell me more about this group.

679
00:30:21.100 --> 00:30:24.334
Whether you can, you know, make the case that the ISI is not

680
00:30:24.334 --> 00:30:27.634
protecting them, what is -- what do you know about them?

681
00:30:27.634 --> 00:30:30.734
And what can we understand from them and this

682
00:30:30.734 --> 00:30:33.300
incident about the future?

683
00:30:33.300 --> 00:30:35.767
Well, for one thing, I have to say that we do

684
00:30:35.767 --> 00:30:38.667
not have any evidence linking

685
00:30:38.667 --> 00:30:41.767
Lashkar-e-Taiba to this incident.

686
00:30:41.767 --> 00:30:44.634
But as far as Lashkar-e-Taiba itself is concerned, as

687
00:30:44.634 --> 00:30:47.400
Mr. ristol has quoted from my article, they have publications

688
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:50.300
in which they do point out that the United States, Israel and

689
00:30:50.300 --> 00:30:53.501
India are existential enemies of the Muslims.

690
00:30:53.501 --> 00:30:56.400
They do have a maximalist agenda, and they do talk about

691
00:30:56.400 --> 00:31:09.067
taking over the whole world and creating -- or recreating the

692
00:31:09.067 --> 00:31:19.267
Islamic empire that existed before the colonial times.

693
00:31:19.267 --> 00:31:27.667
Are most of them from Pakistan?

694
00:31:27.667 --> 00:31:34.734
They have been in the past.

695
00:31:34.734 --> 00:31:41.133
But now there is a new view, and again, that's in the

696
00:31:41.133 --> 00:31:47.100
intelligence community -- we are just waiting for sort of the

697
00:31:47.100 --> 00:31:52.033
intelligence community to reach a consensus on that -- and that

698
00:31:52.033 --> 00:31:56.267
is that many of the groups that were originally local in nature

699
00:31:56.267 --> 00:31:59.934
have now become integrated with al Qaeda-linked ideology.

700
00:31:59.934 --> 00:32:03.167
So they are not necessarily organically linked to al Qaeda

701
00:32:03.167 --> 00:32:06.100
in an organizational way, but they are linked to it in an

702
00:32:06.100 --> 00:32:08.801
intellectual and ideological way.

703
00:32:08.801 --> 00:32:11.334
And so, we will look at all of those connections.

704
00:32:11.334 --> 00:32:13.734
The important thing to understand is that the more we

705
00:32:13.734 --> 00:32:16.033
focus on the India-Pakistan dimension -- and yesterday

706
00:32:16.033 --> 00:32:18.000
somebody asked me on another channel, they said, "India and

707
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.968
Pakistan are rivals." And I said, the new government in

708
00:32:19.968 --> 00:32:21.968
Pakistan, which has the votes of the people behind it, does not

709
00:32:21.968 --> 00:32:23.934
look upon it that way.

710
00:32:23.934 --> 00:32:25.934
We look upon India as our neighbor, a neighbor with whom

711
00:32:25.934 --> 00:32:27.934
we have had disagreements, with whom we have fought in the past,

712
00:32:27.934 --> 00:32:29.934
but with whom we have to learn to live in peace.

713
00:32:29.934 --> 00:32:31.934
And that is what we want to work on.

714
00:32:31.934 --> 00:32:33.934
So whether it is this group or any other group, as soon as we

715
00:32:33.934 --> 00:32:35.667
know which group it is, all the terrorist groups in Pakistan are

716
00:32:35.667 --> 00:32:38.000
going to be the target of our action.

717
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.200
I think the argument being made is that

718
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:41.767
Pakistan has not done enough.

719
00:32:41.767 --> 00:32:43.334
And the -- the

720
00:32:43.334 --> 00:32:44.901
>>ISI has not done enough: Charlie --

721
00:32:44.901 --> 00:32:46.434
-- and there is a lot of evidence that they

722
00:32:46.434 --> 00:32:48.000
left Karachi, got on a boat --

723
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:49.734
Charlie, I think that you and I would not

724
00:32:49.734 --> 00:32:51.534
disagree on the fact that the previous government in Pakistan,

725
00:32:51.534 --> 00:32:53.133
the one led by General Pervez Musharraf, made distinctions

726
00:32:53.133 --> 00:32:54.834
between various groups.

727
00:32:54.834 --> 00:32:56.334
They did not have the kind of clarity that the

728
00:32:56.334 --> 00:32:58.000
new government has.

729
00:32:58.000 --> 00:32:59.734
But the fact of the mater is that President Zardari took

730
00:32:59.734 --> 00:33:01.534
office on the 8th of September.

731
00:33:01.534 --> 00:33:03.367
He hasn't had enough time to take -- to attend to all the

732
00:33:03.367 --> 00:33:05.000
myriad problems that he has been left with.

733
00:33:05.000 --> 00:33:06.734
There has been an economic crisis to deal with.

734
00:33:06.734 --> 00:33:08.601
There has been a war in the border

735
00:33:08.601 --> 00:33:10.300
regions with Afghanistan.

736
00:33:10.300 --> 00:33:12.300
Relations with Afghanistan were a shambles.

737
00:33:12.300 --> 00:33:14.634
There was no peace process between India and Pakistan.

738
00:33:14.634 --> 00:33:16.934
All of that has started.

739
00:33:16.934 --> 00:33:19.133
So any specific thing -- it's like sort of saying that if

740
00:33:19.133 --> 00:33:21.400
there is a crime wave within two months of the election of a

741
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:23.634
new mayor of New York, somehow you start saying, well, why

742
00:33:23.634 --> 00:33:25.767
haven't you done this and why haven't you done that?

743
00:33:25.767 --> 00:33:27.901
The fact of the matter is that the government intends to do

744
00:33:27.901 --> 00:33:30.467
that, and they are working on it.

745
00:33:30.467 --> 00:33:33.667
Do you consider it the responsibility of this

746
00:33:33.667 --> 00:33:36.634
Pakistani government at some point to shut down these

747
00:33:36.634 --> 00:33:39.334
terrorist organizations that are committing acts like this if

748
00:33:39.334 --> 00:33:42.267
they are training or if they are originating from Pakistan?

749
00:33:42.267 --> 00:33:44.968
Not whether they are sponsored by --

750
00:33:44.968 --> 00:33:47.501
Absolutely, absolutely.

751
00:33:47.501 --> 00:33:49.901
-- the government, but it is a

752
00:33:49.901 --> 00:33:52.167
responsibility of the government of Pakistan --

753
00:33:52.167 --> 00:33:54.400
Absolutely.

754
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:56.567
-- if this is happening on their territory, to

755
00:33:56.567 --> 00:33:58.701
do something about it.

756
00:33:58.701 --> 00:34:02.868
Absolutely. Absolutely.

757
00:34:02.868 --> 00:34:05.000
It is the responsibility of th government of Pakistan, and it

758
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.567
is the intent of the government of Pakistan to make sure that

759
00:34:07.567 --> 00:34:10.868
the name of Pakistan is no longer associated with

760
00:34:10.868 --> 00:34:14.067
militancy and terrorism.

761
00:34:14.067 --> 00:34:17.334
That all extremist groups that have operated in Pakistan in

762
00:34:17.334 --> 00:34:20.767
the past, that have operated in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, in

763
00:34:20.767 --> 00:34:24.067
India, anywhere in the world, that they are all put out of

764
00:34:24.067 --> 00:34:27.200
business and Pakistan becomes a normal country, where the real

765
00:34:27.200 --> 00:34:30.234
objective of the government is to provide a decent -- a decent

766
00:34:30.234 --> 00:34:33.033
opportunity for its citizens.

767
00:34:33.033 --> 00:34:35.601
That is the intention of the government, and we are working

768
00:34:35.601 --> 00:34:38.033
towards that as we speak.

769
00:34:38.033 --> 00:34:40.367
Thank you very much for

770
00:34:40.367 --> 00:34:42.601
joining us this evening.

771
00:34:42.601 --> 00:34:44.801
Thank you very much for having me, Charlie.

772
00:34:44.801 --> 00:34:46.667
We'll be right back.

773
00:34:46.667 --> 00:34:53.734
Stay with us.

774
00:34:53.734 --> 00:34:56.133
Joining me this evening is a couple who were able to escape

775
00:34:56.133 --> 00:34:58.868
virtually unharmed from the Taj hotel in Mumbai during last

776
00:34:58.868 --> 00:35:01.133
week's terrorist attacks.

777
00:35:01.133 --> 00:35:03.834
They are Michael Pollack, an investment banker with business

778
00:35:03.834 --> 00:35:06.968
in India, and his wife Anjali Pollack, who is

779
00:35:06.968 --> 00:35:10.133
an interior decorator.

780
00:35:10.133 --> 00:35:13.567
Their account of what happened to them is a remarkable story, a

781
00:35:13.567 --> 00:35:17.133
story of courage and story of survival, and a story of having

782
00:35:17.133 --> 00:35:20.067
to make instant decisions in which your life was at risk.

783
00:35:20.067 --> 00:35:22.501
I am very pleased to have them here to tell you their story and

784
00:35:22.501 --> 00:35:24.767
share what they saw and heard at this most awful event.

785
00:35:24.767 --> 00:35:27.033
So welcome.

786
00:35:27.033 --> 00:35:29.501
Great to have you here.

787
00:35:29.501 --> 00:35:31.601
Thank you.

788
00:35:31.601 --> 00:35:33.501
Thank you for having us.

789
00:35:33.501 --> 00:35:35.367
First of all, tell me why you want to tell

790
00:35:35.367 --> 00:35:37.267
this story.

791
00:35:37.267 --> 00:35:39.133
Well, the most important

792
00:35:39.133 --> 00:35:41.033
thing for us is, first

793
00:35:41.033 --> 00:35:43.200
and foremost, we wouldn't be here, and you know, about 100

794
00:35:43.200 --> 00:35:45.434
other of us wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the bravery of the

795
00:35:45.434 --> 00:35:47.801
Taj staff.

796
00:35:47.801 --> 00:35:50.701
Not to take anything away from the commandos.

797
00:35:50.701 --> 00:35:53.968
The commandos saved our lives equally, but it was the Taj

798
00:35:53.968 --> 00:35:57.133
staff, who literally died in disproportionate number to the

799
00:35:57.133 --> 00:36:00.367
rest of the hostages, that really allowed us to survive.

800
00:36:00.367 --> 00:36:03.634
And I think more than anything else, with every great tragedy,

801
00:36:03.634 --> 00:36:06.968
there is some great piece of humanity that comes forward.

802
00:36:06.968 --> 00:36:10.601
If you think about 9/11, the bravery of the firemen and of

803
00:36:10.601 --> 00:36:13.834
the policemen come to mind as standing out for really what

804
00:36:13.834 --> 00:36:17.267
helped Manhattan get over the problems there.

805
00:36:17.267 --> 00:36:20.701
And I think that the Taj staff really were -- epitomized some

806
00:36:20.701 --> 00:36:24.267
of the best aspects in humanity.

807
00:36:24.267 --> 00:36:27.334
And you know, just time after time, we can walk through the

808
00:36:27.334 --> 00:36:30.434
actual accounts, but there is at least four or five separate

809
00:36:30.434 --> 00:36:33.000
occasions in which they put their own lives at risk in order

810
00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:35.501
to help us and others.

811
00:36:35.501 --> 00:36:37.868
And we think many of them actually paid

812
00:36:37.868 --> 00:36:40.367
the ultimate price.

813
00:36:40.367 --> 00:36:42.501
And it's really out of a deep sense of --

814
00:36:42.501 --> 00:36:44.634
Respect for their bravery.

815
00:36:44.634 --> 00:36:47.100
Correct.

816
00:36:47.100 --> 00:36:49.467
OK.

817
00:36:49.467 --> 00:36:52.000
Take me to the moment that you first knew there was trouble.

818
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.734
Well, we -- by -- we fortunately -- our table

819
00:36:54.734 --> 00:36:57.400
wasn't ready at a restaurant called the Golden Dragon.

820
00:36:57.400 --> 00:37:00.100
And we went next door, a place called the Harbor Bar.

821
00:37:00.100 --> 00:37:02.367
And then all of a sudden, there was an initial sound -- it

822
00:37:02.367 --> 00:37:04.734
sounded like there was a crashing of glasses, except it

823
00:37:04.734 --> 00:37:07.334
was followed by about 20 other sounds, so we knew that

824
00:37:07.334 --> 00:37:09.567
something was on.

825
00:37:09.567 --> 00:37:12.400
And we initially hid for cover.

826
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:14.767
We tried to break some glass to go outside, but the panes

827
00:37:14.767 --> 00:37:17.234
wouldn't break.

828
00:37:17.234 --> 00:37:19.300
And the hostess was standing there and was about 20 feet

829
00:37:19.300 --> 00:37:21.601
from us.

830
00:37:21.601 --> 00:37:24.067
And she said there was a dead body that was in the lobby, and

831
00:37:24.067 --> 00:37:26.667
she could see it clearly.

832
00:37:26.667 --> 00:37:29.734
And when the -- when she thought that there was -- when

833
00:37:29.734 --> 00:37:32.767
it was safe, she ushered for us to go up a stairwell.

834
00:37:32.767 --> 00:37:35.968
And we just happened to be very fortunate that at the Harbor

835
00:37:35.968 --> 00:37:39.367
Bar, there was a stairwell that we could escape up to, to go

836
00:37:39.367 --> 00:37:42.801
into the kitchen area of another restaurant.

837
00:37:42.801 --> 00:37:45.801
And in the kitchen area of another -- in the kitchen area,

838
00:37:45.801 --> 00:37:48.200
the staff allowed us to go into a little office that was there.

839
00:37:48.200 --> 00:37:50.767
And the staff literally of the kitchen stood outside while we

840
00:37:50.767 --> 00:37:54.834
went into that office. We

841
00:37:54.834 --> 00:37:56.834
were in there.

842
00:37:56.834 --> 00:37:59.334
The mood was kind of light.

843
00:37:59.334 --> 00:38:02.200
We thought everything was OK.

844
00:38:02.200 --> 00:38:04.734
We watched TV for about an hour or so.

845
00:38:04.734 --> 00:38:07.000
And then all of a sudden, it became very silent, very quiet.

846
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:09.601
And we wound up taking a very heavy wooden table, and we put

847
00:38:09.601 --> 00:38:11.801
it right up against the door.

848
00:38:11.801 --> 00:38:14.067
We turned off all the lights.

849
00:38:14.067 --> 00:38:16.501
And within minutes, there was a big, you know, pow, pow, pow at

850
00:38:16.501 --> 00:38:18.601
the door.

851
00:38:18.601 --> 00:38:20.701
And it was clear that somebody wanted to break in.

852
00:38:20.701 --> 00:38:23.634
And my wife overheard them trying to break in.

853
00:38:23.634 --> 00:38:26.400
And --

854
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:29.067
No, it was actually our friend Shiv (ph).

855
00:38:29.067 --> 00:38:31.968
He was at the door looking through the keyhole, and we kept

856
00:38:31.968 --> 00:38:35.601
hearing the slamming, somebody trying to break open the door.

857
00:38:35.601 --> 00:38:38.801
And there was a member of the Taj staff outside.

858
00:38:38.801 --> 00:38:41.734
I think he was a chef, probably in the kitchen.

859
00:38:41.734 --> 00:38:44.167
And the gentleman -- the terrorist, sorry -- asked in

860
00:38:44.167 --> 00:38:46.801
Hindi "Masala Kraft kahahe (ph)?"

861
00:38:46.801 --> 00:38:49.634
Which means, "where is Masala Kraft,"

862
00:38:49.634 --> 00:38:52.634
which is another restaurant.

863
00:38:52.634 --> 00:38:55.367
And the chef very, very calmly answered.

864
00:38:55.367 --> 00:38:58.267
You know, this is the direction where Masala Kraft is.

865
00:38:58.267 --> 00:39:00.701
And then the guy said, again in Hindi -- "undar konhe?"

866
00:39:00.701 --> 00:39:03.400
That means, "who is inside?"

867
00:39:03.400 --> 00:39:06.534
And he said, "don't worry, nobody's inside,"

868
00:39:06.534 --> 00:39:09.901
in Hindi, to him.

869
00:39:09.901 --> 00:39:13.033
At which point, the terrorist ran ahead and we were spared.

870
00:39:13.033 --> 00:39:15.701
And you mentioned the bravery.

871
00:39:15.701 --> 00:39:18.334
Clearly, there were instances in which you were told to go

872
00:39:18.334 --> 00:39:21.133
some way by people who worked in the hotel --

873
00:39:21.133 --> 00:39:24.000
Yes.

874
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.901
And then, as soon as you went that way, to some

875
00:39:26.901 --> 00:39:29.934
kind of safety, they were killed.

876
00:39:29.934 --> 00:39:33.000
Yes.

877
00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:35.567
Give me a story of that.

878
00:39:35.567 --> 00:39:38.133
Well, the clearest story is there was an

879
00:39:38.133 --> 00:39:40.601
attempted escape from our final hiding place.

880
00:39:40.601 --> 00:39:42.868
About 2:00 a.m.

881
00:39:42.868 --> 00:39:45.133
in the morning, I was in a place called the Chambers.

882
00:39:45.133 --> 00:39:47.400
How did you get to the Chambers?

883
00:39:47.400 --> 00:39:49.701
Well, after we were in the -- in

884
00:39:49.701 --> 00:39:51.968
the office, in

885
00:39:51.968 --> 00:39:54.467
the kitchen, the staff then, once the terrorist left, they

886
00:39:54.467 --> 00:39:56.567
said, you know, you should go to this other place, which was

887
00:39:56.567 --> 00:39:58.901
literally down the hall, but it was more secured.

888
00:39:58.901 --> 00:40:00.968
They felt that the doors were locked better.

889
00:40:00.968 --> 00:40:03.400
They felt that it was armed.

890
00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:05.934
And even at that point, when they escorted

891
00:40:05.934 --> 00:40:08.934
-- they stood in a line.

892
00:40:08.934 --> 00:40:12.334
There was, I would say at least 15 to 20 of them, who stood in

893
00:40:12.334 --> 00:40:15.701
a line, that should anything have happened -- they formed a

894
00:40:15.701 --> 00:40:19.033
human barrier between the terrorists' shots and us walking

895
00:40:19.033 --> 00:40:21.767
into the Chambers, where we were then held for a while.

896
00:40:21.767 --> 00:40:24.334
And then, to come to Michael's point, at about 2:00, you can --

897
00:40:24.334 --> 00:40:26.868
At about 2:00, the staff

898
00:40:26.868 --> 00:40:29.634
attempted an evacuation.

899
00:40:29.634 --> 00:40:32.434
The fire -- there was a fire burning.

900
00:40:32.434 --> 00:40:35.133
And unfortunately, somebody who was in the Chambers had gotten

901
00:40:35.133 --> 00:40:37.434
on the local news media and said "by the way, there is 200

902
00:40:37.434 --> 00:40:39.434
people in the Chambers," which then put us all at risk.

903
00:40:39.434 --> 00:40:41.167
One of the stupidest things to happen --

904
00:40:41.167 --> 00:40:43.100
Absolutely.

905
00:40:43.100 --> 00:40:45.000
-- during this.,

906
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:46.934
Correct.

907
00:40:46.934 --> 00:40:48.968
Which was a minister of parliament in India, believe it

908
00:40:48.968 --> 00:40:51.067
or not, who said that.

909
00:40:51.067 --> 00:40:53.400
And so they attempted an evacuation.

910
00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:55.734
And about two, three, four, five minutes into the evacuation,

911
00:40:55.734 --> 00:40:58.567
there was the sound of machine gunfire and grenades.

912
00:40:58.567 --> 00:41:01.334
And we believe that a lot of people in the stairwell were

913
00:41:01.334 --> 00:41:03.634
ultimately killed, and we believe that it was the Taj

914
00:41:03.634 --> 00:41:06.000
staff who stayed behind to make sure that doorway was locked to

915
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:08.067
the rest of their -- to the rest of where we

916
00:41:08.067 --> 00:41:10.767
were in the Chambers.

917
00:41:10.767 --> 00:41:13.501
And at that place, there was just this huge stampede in order

918
00:41:13.501 --> 00:41:16.234
to try and find cover.

919
00:41:16.234 --> 00:41:18.534
And Anjali and I had decided prior to that, because we had

920
00:41:18.534 --> 00:41:20.501
had a couple of close calls already, that if that were to

921
00:41:20.501 --> 00:41:22.734
happen, given that the reports were that they

922
00:41:22.734 --> 00:41:25.567
were targeting U.S.

923
00:41:25.567 --> 00:41:28.834
and U.K.

924
00:41:28.834 --> 00:41:32.000
nationals, you know, we have two small children, so we

925
00:41:32.000 --> 00:41:35.033
decided the best thing to do was to split up.

926
00:41:35.033 --> 00:41:37.868
So I fled to a toilet stall and she fled to a large room.

927
00:41:37.868 --> 00:41:40.601
And, you know, after a lot of -- after a lot of gunfights, the

928
00:41:40.601 --> 00:41:43.133
terrorists managed to break into where we were, which is

929
00:41:43.133 --> 00:41:45.567
where the firefight then ensued for the next five hours.

930
00:41:45.567 --> 00:41:47.868
Now -- what time is this by now?

931
00:41:47.868 --> 00:41:50.400
You have been doing this for how many hours?

932
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:53.133
We entered the hotel at about 9:30.

933
00:41:53.133 --> 00:41:55.701
I think we entered the Chambers sort of about two hours after.

934
00:41:55.701 --> 00:41:58.400
And the evacuation was attempted at 2:00 thereafter.

935
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:00.667
And there definitely, to Michael's point, the Taj, the

936
00:42:00.667 --> 00:42:02.968
staff definitely -- they stayed outside the doors.

937
00:42:02.968 --> 00:42:04.934
Because after that, I didn't see any of the

938
00:42:04.934 --> 00:42:06.968
staff inside again.

939
00:42:06.968 --> 00:42:09.534
Because during the time, before the evacuation,

940
00:42:09.534 --> 00:42:12.267
they were with us.

941
00:42:12.267 --> 00:42:15.100
They were, you know, telling us to relax, be calm.

942
00:42:15.100 --> 00:42:17.567
And there were two chefs who had spoken to us during the time we

943
00:42:17.567 --> 00:42:20.267
were in the kitchen, a gentleman named Hamand Oberoi (ph) and

944
00:42:20.267 --> 00:42:22.534
another one by the name of Banja (ph), who both were in the room

945
00:42:22.534 --> 00:42:24.834
with us and kept assuring us.

946
00:42:24.834 --> 00:42:27.200
And one of them came up to me, and he said "don't worry, you

947
00:42:27.200 --> 00:42:29.234
know, be calm.

948
00:42:29.234 --> 00:42:31.267
And if anything has to happen, don't worry." He said "I will

949
00:42:31.267 --> 00:42:33.033
die before you." And I held his hands, and I said "but I don't

950
00:42:33.033 --> 00:42:34.868
want you to die."

951
00:42:34.868 --> 00:42:36.567
Did you have any means of knowing

952
00:42:36.567 --> 00:42:38.434
what was going on?

953
00:42:38.434 --> 00:42:40.467
Could you see television accounts?

954
00:42:40.467 --> 00:42:42.567
Could you see anything at all?

955
00:42:42.567 --> 00:42:44.634
We were actually -- the other thing the

956
00:42:44.634 --> 00:42:47.100
Taj staff did, again, to save us, was they killed all the

957
00:42:47.100 --> 00:42:50.067
lights when we came back from the evacuation.

958
00:42:50.067 --> 00:42:53.334
So we were all lying in darkness.

959
00:42:53.334 --> 00:42:56.968
The cell phones had all been turned to silent.

960
00:42:56.968 --> 00:43:00.601
But I was very lucky, because a friend of mine who was lying

961
00:43:00.601 --> 00:43:04.100
across my feet, Vishal (ph), was in Blackberry contact with

962
00:43:04.100 --> 00:43:07.701
Michael, so I knew he was OK, and also my friend was SMSing.

963
00:43:07.701 --> 00:43:10.934
My parents, our friends with Krishna Kumar (ph) and

964
00:43:10.934 --> 00:43:13.834
Ratnakrishna Kumar (ph), who are part of, you know, the Taj

965
00:43:13.834 --> 00:43:16.534
group of hotels and one of the lead people on the Tata Sons

966
00:43:16.534 --> 00:43:19.367
board, and were in touch with them.

967
00:43:19.367 --> 00:43:22.434
And they kept giving us information.

968
00:43:22.434 --> 00:43:24.968
And we kept giving them information.

969
00:43:24.968 --> 00:43:27.434
We didn't know that we were part of a terrorist attack by

970
00:43:27.434 --> 00:43:30.067
that time, and we didn't know that the other side

971
00:43:30.067 --> 00:43:32.868
was burning, heavily.

972
00:43:32.868 --> 00:43:35.400
It was also at this point that, at some point during the

973
00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:37.801
gunfire, we heard the terrorists, and we knew that the

974
00:43:37.801 --> 00:43:39.934
other rooms just next to us were being shot up, because we heard

975
00:43:39.934 --> 00:43:41.767
shots without return fire.

976
00:43:41.767 --> 00:43:43.634
Did you hear them talking to each other?

977
00:43:43.634 --> 00:43:45.400
Not at all.

978
00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:47.434
And then --

979
00:43:47.434 --> 00:43:49.567
It was just single shots.

980
00:43:49.567 --> 00:43:51.667
It was execution-style single shots.

981
00:43:51.667 --> 00:43:53.534
The scariest part was when there was no return fire.

982
00:43:53.534 --> 00:43:55.801
If there was pop, pop, pop, followed by pop, pop, pop --

983
00:43:55.801 --> 00:43:58.234
You knew the commandos were (inaudible).

984
00:43:58.234 --> 00:44:00.868
Yes, exactly.

985
00:44:00.868 --> 00:44:03.434
But when it was just pop, pop, pop and it was all coming from

986
00:44:03.434 --> 00:44:05.901
one sound, then I remember vividly, because I was in the

987
00:44:05.901 --> 00:44:08.367
toilet stall with one other guy, and we just said to each other,

988
00:44:08.367 --> 00:44:11.000
"they're killing people." And from our standpoint, that was

989
00:44:11.000 --> 00:44:13.200
the scariest part, because we had no idea.

990
00:44:13.200 --> 00:44:15.367
Because what basically had happened, if you think about --

991
00:44:15.367 --> 00:44:17.601
if you think about how the Chambers was, it's kind of like

992
00:44:17.601 --> 00:44:19.767
an L.

993
00:44:19.767 --> 00:44:22.200
So you had two corridors, one east/west, one north/south.

994
00:44:22.200 --> 00:44:24.267
And the commandos were basically here, and they had

995
00:44:24.267 --> 00:44:26.334
killed everybody on the east/west corridor.

996
00:44:26.334 --> 00:44:28.367
And so, there was one large room where Anjali and

997
00:44:28.367 --> 00:44:30.801
our friends were.

998
00:44:30.801 --> 00:44:33.133
And the toilet stalls were here.

999
00:44:33.133 --> 00:44:35.367
And it felt like the terrorists were trying to cross this

1000
00:44:35.367 --> 00:44:37.567
corridor in order to get to these people, because they knew

1001
00:44:37.567 --> 00:44:39.701
there were a lot of high-value targets.

1002
00:44:39.701 --> 00:44:42.400
And so it was basically a five- hour standoff, gun battle

1003
00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:44.801
between them, in which, you know, there was a lot of

1004
00:44:44.801 --> 00:44:47.167
grenades and automatic fire and single shots.

1005
00:44:47.167 --> 00:44:49.200
And miraculously, everybody -- most people in this room -- I

1006
00:44:49.200 --> 00:44:51.601
think about everybody survived.

1007
00:44:51.601 --> 00:44:54.167
The other thing that was amazing -- there were

1008
00:44:54.167 --> 00:44:56.801
two other things.

1009
00:44:56.801 --> 00:44:59.167
One is at a certain point, there were gunshots on this side, and

1010
00:44:59.167 --> 00:45:02.367
my friends were up against the terrace doors on this side, and

1011
00:45:02.367 --> 00:45:05.033
they were throwing grenades and shots -- firing at us from

1012
00:45:05.033 --> 00:45:07.334
outside on the terrace as well.

1013
00:45:07.334 --> 00:45:09.300
But the amazing thing was that everybody in that room kept

1014
00:45:09.300 --> 00:45:11.033
absolutely quiet.

1015
00:45:11.033 --> 00:45:12.567
I didn't hear one scream.

1016
00:45:12.567 --> 00:45:14.234
Not one.

1017
00:45:14.234 --> 00:45:15.834
No crying.

1018
00:45:15.834 --> 00:45:17.601
No screaming, nothing.

1019
00:45:17.601 --> 00:45:19.501
No crying, no screaming.

1020
00:45:19.501 --> 00:45:21.167
Everybody was quiet.

1021
00:45:21.167 --> 00:45:22.934
Most people I think were praying.

1022
00:45:22.934 --> 00:45:24.767
And even the people who were shot in the room next door

1023
00:45:24.767 --> 00:45:26.367
never screamed.

1024
00:45:26.367 --> 00:45:27.834
What is going through your mind?

1025
00:45:27.834 --> 00:45:29.400
Is it so totally focused on survival, that is all you are

1026
00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:31.634
thinking about?

1027
00:45:31.634 --> 00:45:33.701
Or is it something else?

1028
00:45:33.701 --> 00:45:35.834
We had completely opposite reactions.

1029
00:45:35.834 --> 00:45:37.767
His -- he will tell you his, but I was -- I was really very,

1030
00:45:37.767 --> 00:45:40.033
very calm.

1031
00:45:40.033 --> 00:45:42.534
And I thought I was done for.

1032
00:45:42.534 --> 00:45:45.234
I was ready to die.

1033
00:45:45.234 --> 00:45:48.367
I had accepted that I was going to die.

1034
00:45:48.367 --> 00:45:52.000
I just wanted my children to be safe with my family.

1035
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.234
But through it all, I -- and I really have to say this, I felt

1036
00:45:55.234 --> 00:45:58.567
that I have always been such a lucky and blessed person, and I

1037
00:45:58.567 --> 00:46:01.300
felt so much love of all my friends and family and loved

1038
00:46:01.300 --> 00:46:04.334
ones sort of carrying me through it.

1039
00:46:04.334 --> 00:46:07.100
I could feel all of them just holding me through this

1040
00:46:07.100 --> 00:46:10.067
difficult time.

1041
00:46:10.067 --> 00:46:12.968
And I think that the people next to me helped me a lot too,

1042
00:46:12.968 --> 00:46:15.467
because we were all in it together.

1043
00:46:15.467 --> 00:46:17.934
And I also want to make the point that there was a large

1044
00:46:17.934 --> 00:46:20.267
group of Muslims right next to me who were preying.

1045
00:46:20.267 --> 00:46:22.467
They were there just like me.

1046
00:46:22.467 --> 00:46:24.667
They would have been killed just like me.

1047
00:46:24.667 --> 00:46:26.567
Those terrorists are not Muslims.

1048
00:46:26.567 --> 00:46:28.534
They are just terrorists.

1049
00:46:28.534 --> 00:46:30.667
They would have killed all the Muslims besides me as well.

1050
00:46:30.667 --> 00:46:32.467
But it really helped.

1051
00:46:32.467 --> 00:46:34.767
And how were you approaching this as you were --

1052
00:46:34.767 --> 00:46:37.033
I was -- I have never felt any adrenaline

1053
00:46:37.033 --> 00:46:39.300
like that in my life.

1054
00:46:39.300 --> 00:46:42.501
It was the most hyper-aware state I have ever been in, where

1055
00:46:42.501 --> 00:46:45.234
I could hear every sound, I could hear every body movement,

1056
00:46:45.234 --> 00:46:47.801
I could control my breath.

1057
00:46:47.801 --> 00:46:50.200
When people -- there were people going and out of the stall, and

1058
00:46:50.200 --> 00:46:52.534
I didn't know who they were.

1059
00:46:52.534 --> 00:46:54.501
I didn't know whether they were commandos.

1060
00:46:54.501 --> 00:46:56.901
I didn't know whether they were terrorists.

1061
00:46:56.901 --> 00:46:59.601
I didn't know whether somebody was going to walk up to the

1062
00:46:59.601 --> 00:47:02.133
stalls and fire shots in.

1063
00:47:02.133 --> 00:47:04.701
So I was thinking -- I was constantly SMSing.

1064
00:47:04.701 --> 00:47:07.234
You know, a friend had gotten me a contact at the FBI, and I

1065
00:47:07.234 --> 00:47:09.501
was trying to understand what was going on.

1066
00:47:09.501 --> 00:47:11.868
I was worried that they may have a suicide -- they may have

1067
00:47:11.868 --> 00:47:14.767
suicide belts, and maybe they will bring in -- maybe they will

1068
00:47:14.767 --> 00:47:18.300
bring down the roof.

1069
00:47:18.300 --> 00:47:21.767
And it was just this hyper-aware state, where I

1070
00:47:21.767 --> 00:47:25.067
didn't want to do anything dumb that would cause me to die.

1071
00:47:25.067 --> 00:47:28.100
It was -- and you know, it was such an adrenaline-fueled period

1072
00:47:28.100 --> 00:47:31.033
of time that I literally -- despite not having slept the

1073
00:47:31.033 --> 00:47:33.501
entire night, I couldn't sleep for the next 15 hours.

1074
00:47:33.501 --> 00:47:36.868
I was wide awake the next -- we were freed at 9:00 a.m.

1075
00:47:36.868 --> 00:47:39.934
I didn't go to sleep until 2:00 a.m., 3:00 a.m.

1076
00:47:39.934 --> 00:47:42.734
the next day.

1077
00:47:42.734 --> 00:47:46.234
And when you look back at this, what do you want

1078
00:47:46.234 --> 00:47:49.100
to tell your kids?

1079
00:47:49.100 --> 00:47:51.534
What do you want to tell your parents?

1080
00:47:51.534 --> 00:47:53.834
That we have been given the greatest gift in

1081
00:47:53.834 --> 00:47:56.367
the world.

1082
00:47:56.367 --> 00:47:58.501
And  --

1083
00:47:58.501 --> 00:48:00.601
We were looking at the hand of -- at the face of

1084
00:48:00.601 --> 00:48:02.534
death, and somehow we miraculously, because of courage

1085
00:48:02.534 --> 00:48:04.267
and circumstance --

1086
00:48:04.267 --> 00:48:06.434
Well, on two folds --

1087
00:48:06.434 --> 00:48:08.634
-- and chance --

1088
00:48:08.634 --> 00:48:11.334
On two folds.

1089
00:48:11.334 --> 00:48:13.634
There is the obvious gift, which is that it is only when you

1090
00:48:13.634 --> 00:48:17.267
have a near-death experience that your expectations are

1091
00:48:17.267 --> 00:48:20.934
really lowered to the basic things, and your sense of ego

1092
00:48:20.934 --> 00:48:24.934
diminishes over time.

1093
00:48:24.934 --> 00:48:28.901
But the real gift, beyond the second chance at life, is to

1094
00:48:28.901 --> 00:48:32.567
have seen the selfless nature of others in a period of

1095
00:48:32.567 --> 00:48:36.100
absolute mayhem and barbarity, and to have seen how selfless

1096
00:48:36.100 --> 00:48:39.334
human beings can be and really pull together as a community in

1097
00:48:39.334 --> 00:48:42.767
these periods -- it's only something that, you know,

1098
00:48:42.767 --> 00:48:45.968
Anjali and I can hope to try and emulate in the future.

1099
00:48:45.968 --> 00:48:49.067
You know, what is interesting about that.

1100
00:48:49.067 --> 00:48:51.667
I don't know if it is true in this case, but when I talk to

1101
00:48:51.667 --> 00:48:54.400
people who have been involved in circumstances like this and

1102
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:56.667
have been -- performed acts of heroism, they don't

1103
00:48:56.667 --> 00:48:58.767
see it that way.

1104
00:48:58.767 --> 00:49:01.033
They just say often, "I just did what I instinctively thought I

1105
00:49:01.033 --> 00:49:03.834
should do.

1106
00:49:03.834 --> 00:49:06.767
I did what was my duty.

1107
00:49:06.767 --> 00:49:10.467
I did what anybody would have done." They all say things like

1108
00:49:10.467 --> 00:49:13.501
that, rather than, you know, I knew I had to be a hero in order

1109
00:49:13.501 --> 00:49:17.067
for these people to survive, so I chose to put my life at risk.

1110
00:49:17.067 --> 00:49:20.501
It's much more a response to what is the right thing to do.

1111
00:49:20.501 --> 00:49:23.767
Yes.

1112
00:49:23.767 --> 00:49:26.868
If anything, right now I would say what I feel, you know, the

1113
00:49:26.868 --> 00:49:29.868
worst about or ashamed about is here I was acting so selfishly,

1114
00:49:29.868 --> 00:49:32.634
to try and constantly think through how my wife and I could

1115
00:49:32.634 --> 00:49:34.968
survive in this situation, and here were others acting so

1116
00:49:34.968 --> 00:49:36.968
selflessly, thinking about how they can protect us.

1117
00:49:36.968 --> 00:49:38.734
But you don't feel guilty about that, do you?

1118
00:49:38.734 --> 00:49:40.534
A little bit.

1119
00:49:40.534 --> 00:49:42.167
Do you?

1120
00:49:42.167 --> 00:49:43.868
Yes.

1121
00:49:43.868 --> 00:49:45.767
Do you feel any of that?

1122
00:49:45.767 --> 00:49:47.634
Yes.

1123
00:49:47.634 --> 00:49:49.567
I feel -- I don't know -- for me, a lot of it is why am I

1124
00:49:49.567 --> 00:49:51.868
here and not so many other people, you know?

1125
00:49:51.868 --> 00:49:54.501
What made me get out?

1126
00:49:54.501 --> 00:49:56.868
They made the same decisions as me.

1127
00:49:56.868 --> 00:49:59.100
You know, I didn't make any different decision, and I have

1128
00:49:59.100 --> 00:50:01.300
been given -- my family is so happy I'm home.

1129
00:50:01.300 --> 00:50:03.434
My friends, my family.

1130
00:50:03.434 --> 00:50:05.667
And their families are mourning.

1131
00:50:05.667 --> 00:50:08.334
And our children.

1132
00:50:08.334 --> 00:50:10.701
And their children.

1133
00:50:10.701 --> 00:50:13.667
And the only thing that helps is to be able to say thank you.

1134
00:50:13.667 --> 00:50:16.100
And that's why we are here, to say thank you to those who

1135
00:50:16.100 --> 00:50:19.033
helped us to be here.

1136
00:50:19.033 --> 00:50:22.701
Sorry, really, really heartfelt sorry for those

1137
00:50:22.701 --> 00:50:26.000
who can't be here.

1138
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:29.601
And to hope that through all of this, that we can come

1139
00:50:29.601 --> 00:50:32.567
together, as a nation and as a world, to try to stop these kind

1140
00:50:32.567 --> 00:50:35.534
of things from happening, so that people who have lost their

1141
00:50:35.534 --> 00:50:38.000
lives across the globe in things like this, have not lost

1142
00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:40.767
their lives in vain.

1143
00:50:40.767 --> 00:50:43.567
Eloquently said.

1144
00:50:43.567 --> 00:50:46.334
Take a look at this.

1145
00:50:46.334 --> 00:50:48.667
This is a picture taken on your Blackberry in the entrance of

1146
00:50:48.667 --> 00:50:50.701
the Taj after several hours of separation while you were

1147
00:50:50.701 --> 00:50:52.400
hiding from -- in different areas of the hotel.

1148
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.100
There is one.

1149
00:50:54.100 --> 00:50:55.801
And what's this?

1150
00:50:55.801 --> 00:50:57.501
I was so mad at him, because

1151
00:50:57.501 --> 00:50:59.200
we had just walked

1152
00:50:59.200 --> 00:51:01.133
out, and he gives me a big hug and he tries to take a picture

1153
00:51:01.133 --> 00:51:03.434
on his Blackberry.

1154
00:51:03.434 --> 00:51:05.501
And I said, "Michael, we're not out of here yet,

1155
00:51:05.501 --> 00:51:08.167
stop it." You know?

1156
00:51:08.167 --> 00:51:10.400
And I said that, and just as he takes the picture, they opened

1157
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:12.834
fire on us, again.

1158
00:51:12.834 --> 00:51:15.200
And there were police vans and buses, and Michael shoved me

1159
00:51:15.200 --> 00:51:17.367
onto the bus.

1160
00:51:17.367 --> 00:51:19.767
My friend Vishar (ph) pulled me on, and he ran for cover.

1161
00:51:19.767 --> 00:51:21.767
And we were separated again.

1162
00:51:21.767 --> 00:51:23.534
So that's the picture you see.

1163
00:51:23.534 --> 00:51:25.133
Of all this time, how much of the

1164
00:51:25.133 --> 00:51:26.567
time were you separate?

1165
00:51:26.567 --> 00:51:28.133
Seven hours.

1166
00:51:28.133 --> 00:51:29.567
Seven hours.

1167
00:51:29.567 --> 00:51:31.133
Yes.

1168
00:51:31.133 --> 00:51:32.567
And the total time you were under attack was

1169
00:51:32.567 --> 00:51:34.133
how long?

1170
00:51:34.133 --> 00:51:35.667
About 12 hours.

1171
00:51:35.667 --> 00:51:37.167
Twelve hours.

1172
00:51:37.167 --> 00:51:38.534
Twelve hours under attack.

1173
00:51:38.534 --> 00:51:39.868
We spent seven hours literally

1174
00:51:39.868 --> 00:51:41.200
curled up on the

1175
00:51:41.200 --> 00:51:42.567
ground, you know, in pitch-black darkness with

1176
00:51:42.567 --> 00:51:46.868
a firefight around us.

1177
00:51:46.868 --> 00:51:49.000
Not saying a word or --

1178
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.167
Well, I mean, in the toilet

1179
00:51:51.167 --> 00:51:53.300
stall I was saying

1180
00:51:53.300 --> 00:51:59.834
-- a couple, you know, I was silently communicating with one

1181
00:51:59.834 --> 00:52:06.968
other guy, who was there with me, but basically, no.

1182
00:52:06.968 --> 00:52:14.501
Michael Pollack and Anjali Pollack, thank you

1183
00:52:14.501 --> 00:52:21.634
very much.

1184
00:52:21.634 --> 00:52:27.734
Thank you very much.

1185
00:52:27.734 --> 00:52:34.534
Thanks for having us.

1186
00:52:34.534 --> 00:52:42.234
Thank you.

1187
00:52:42.234 --> 00:52:48.501
Incredible story.

1188
00:52:48.501 --> 00:52:54.767
We really appreciate it.

1189
00:52:54.767 --> 00:53:01.033
Thank you for joining us.

1190
00:53:01.033 --> 
See you next time.