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UBS Exec Says New York Is Going Deep into the Red Ink

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CHARLIE ROSE The president of the United States came to New

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York today.

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He came and met with the governor, he met with the mayor,

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he met with business leaders.

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His purpose was to let New York know that Washington cared, and

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also to build confidence in the future and in the economy.

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We begin this evening with DONALD MARRON, the chairman of

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UBS America.

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DONALD MARRON, Chairman, UBS America Thank you very much,

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Charlie, nice to be here.

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CHARLIE ROSE What -- tell me about this day and your

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impression of the president and whether you think it makes a

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difference that he came back for the second time and had

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conversations with financial leaders as well and corporate

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leaders as well as bringing some of his top economic people?

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DONALD MARRON I think it was a very important meeting.

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The fact that he came back again so soon, the fact that he did

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come with his key leaders, or most of his key leaders, and the

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fact that he assembled a bipartisan group of CEOs.

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Most important thing, though, is he was strong, he was focused,

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he was nonpolitical.

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He understood the issues, and he was very interested in learning

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from the group how he could add to his list of things to do and

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how to do them.

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CHARLIE ROSE OK, two questions.

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One, what do you think he might have learned from the group?

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DONALD MARRON Well, you know, the first thing he learned is

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that we're all working together.

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The extraordinary thing about this event in this country is,

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we have a common enemy, we all get together.

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So we heard that from natural competitors about how their

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ideas coincide and how they wanted very

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good things to happen.

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That's the first thing.

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I think the second thing that he heard and felt was a real

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consideration for people as well as for

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economics and for business.

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He expressed it in every opportunity that he had,

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everyone did.

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So a consolidated effort to rebuild what's broken but also

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to make sure that optimism was the big product that

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came out of this.

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CHARLIE ROSE Because part and parcel with recovery is the

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necessity of confidence the recovery can happen.

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DONALD MARRON Exactly right.

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And he was building confidence.

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I can't tell you, Charlie, how good he was, how strong he was,

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how focused he was, and how knowledgeable he was.

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This is a man for the time.

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CHARLIE ROSE You really believe it.

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DONALD MARRON I really, genuinely believe it.

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CHARLIE ROSE Someone who has found his footing, so to speak,

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in terms of this really office that is so awesomely demanding.

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DONALD MARRON They say that crisis makes the man or woman.

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In this case, I think the man was already there, and I knew

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him before the campaign.

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But it did make him here, he was very focused on the key issues

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short term and long term.

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For example, after he talked about all the stimuluses

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possible, he wanted to know how to make sure there wasn't too

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much stimulus, not meaning he didn't want to do it, but he was

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also aware of the issues of inflation, the bond market,

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saving something for later-- CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON --because there's both a short-term and a

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long-term problem.

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Very well focused.

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CHARLIE ROSE Let me touch on two things.

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Number one, what is it that the financial leaders, both with, as

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you say, from both sides of the political spectrum, also from

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financial and from corporate as well, what were their fears, and

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what is part of the remedy to address those fears?

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Those fears have to do with recession, those fears have to

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do with, you know, a global economy that is under shock.

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DONALD MARRON Exactly.

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Well, first, you can divide it.

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There were the immediate fears, airline industry, tourism,

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getting people back to normal lives.

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That was the immediate thing.

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Second thing was the recession.

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The recession was coming in any case.

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Consumer spending and housing were keeping it going.

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What's happened now, of course, is, with this great tragedy, for

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businesses who had been thinking about cutting back but weren't

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sure are now doing it.

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So you're getting a contraction out of just policy of businesses

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to do the right thing for the shareholders.

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Housing, which has been a stalwart in keeping the economy

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going, has got to be an issue of concern right in here.

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Everyone at that meeting understood and spoke about it.

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(unintelligible)-- CHARLIE ROSE Which has not been in

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decline, but is about to be, or-- DONALD MARRON Which has

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not been in decline, but it certainly would be threatened,

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because housing is a function of confidence, confidence not only

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in your income but confidence in your country and other aspects

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of life.

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The other thing people were concerned with, what happens

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next year?

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Because once we get through this, we still have the issue of

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what happens to the economy going forward.

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This used to be a world in which you could look to the whole

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world to bring you out of some problems, but the whole world is

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going into recession at the same time, so you don't have that

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other force that's going to help you.

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For this country to do well, and for this world to come out

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of recession, it's got to be done by and led

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by the United States.

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CHARLIE ROSE Sixty-- 50-to-- sale, what was the number?

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From $60 to $75 billion more to encourage consumer confidence

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and bolster business investment.

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Is that the single most important economic initiative to

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take now?

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Stimulate the economy by government investment?

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DONALD MARRON Yes.

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The answer is yes, and it's interesting how different things

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were from awhile ago.

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(unintelligible)-- CHARLIE ROSE

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Republicans didn't in investment.

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DONALD MARRON Right, right.

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Business was in, and government was supposed to be-- CHARLIE

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ROSE Right.

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DONALD MARRON --on the sidelines.

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We were worrying about-- CHARLIE ROSE Right.

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DONALD MARRON --surplus versus a deficit.

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We were worrying about the globalization.

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Now it's government that has to lead the way.

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Yes, in the short term, partly for the money -- which is very,

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very important -- but also to (unintelligible)-- CHARLIE

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ROSE Put the money in the system?

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DONALD MARRON To put the money in the system and to make sure

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it's focused where it has to be.

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The governor and the mayor were at this meeting also, have done

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a fabulous job in this crisis.

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Their challenge is going to be how to take this money and make

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sure it gets focused in the right way.

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So that's part one of all the things that are going on.

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The part two in going forward is to make sure the money also

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lays the basis for longer-term gains in the economy.

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CHARLIE ROSE Are we going to see more suffering, more pain,

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before we see a turn?

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DONALD MARRON Yes.

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As I said, I think businesses that had been thinking about

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doing things to reduce their overhead or cut back, layoffs,

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closing of plants, are going to be doing more of that.

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That's the first thing.

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And secondly, consumers that have kept this economy going are

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clearly slowing down and rethinking what they spend the

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money on.

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CHARLIE ROSE In terms of less leisure and more something else?

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DONALD MARRON Less leisure, more something else, maybe more

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savings, which, while it's very good in the long term, isn't so

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good in the short term.

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Consumer-- CHARLIE ROSE That's one of the

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ironies of our economy.

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Everybody's been preaching for a long time that America's got to

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save more, and now they're saying you got to spend more.

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DONALD MARRON Now you got to spend more.

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CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON And the president was right on track

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when he said what we want to do is give consumers more income.

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So he was talking about lowering the withholding tax, for

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example, as an important thing (unintelligible)-- CHARLIE

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ROSE Will that make a difference?

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DONALD MARRON It could make a difference, because it would

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mean more money in a person's pocket every month.

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There already is a second big income tax rate coming in

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January, perhaps doing more with that.

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But doing things to give people longer-term confidence.

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He was talking about extending unemployment benefits,

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recognizing that more people are going to be out

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of work for longer.

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I drove down yesterday to see ground zero, which is a

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staggering sight if you haven't seen it firsthand.

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But driving down, as you got closer, you saw how many small

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businesses were closed.

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You got the closer and closer impression-- CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON --of the impacting economy on people

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that-- CHARLIE ROSE This is that are not going to reopen.

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DONALD MARRON --wouldn't (unintelligible) -- They're not

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going to reopen-- CHARLIE ROSE And how are those people--

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DONALD MARRON --(unintelligible)-- CHARLIE

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ROSE --going to provide for their families and their

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children and -- ?

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DONALD MARRON That's right, and how are they going to do it?

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CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON Well, certainly unemployment benefits are

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important, local stimulus that gives them a chance to move, to

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start their own business again, is important.

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And equally important in all this is them realizing that the

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government is really interested and wants to do something.

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And the president really did that in this meeting.

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He's done it before, but his concern for people, concern for

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the unemployed -- I know it sounds a little partisan because

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I'm a supporter of his -- but in this case it was not, there was

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no partisan issues at all in this room.

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Big focus on how to make things better for a

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large number of people.

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CHARLIE ROSE Tell me about New York.

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And you're a citizen of this city.

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DONALD MARRON Yes, yes.

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CHARLIE ROSE What do you think has to happen here in order to

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-- you know, how do we get out of this?

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DONALD MARRON (unintelligible)-- CHARLIE

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ROSE How do we get on with the recovery?

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We now -- we're now still in the process of almost rescue and

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recovery, rescue looks less and less and less and less likely.

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But we haven't begun the process yet of moving beyond.

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DONALD MARRON That's right.

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We haven't really thought about it.

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Just to give you a broad statistic on states and cities

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in general, because this is a big issue going forward, last

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year states and cities had a surplus together

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of over $40 billion.

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This year, we've projected it will go down, but it would still

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be healthy, $20 or $25 billion.

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States and cities in the aggregate could well be in the

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red next year.

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So while New York is the focal point of these problems, it's

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not the only problem, and that's a big driver of the economy.

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New York is going to be deep in the red for the next couple of

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years, rebuilding, and absorbing the shock on the

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life of New York.

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That's the first thing that's going to happen.

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The second thing is, this attack was an attack on bigness

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and globalization, so the second thing that's

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going to happen is,

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corporations are going to rethink whether you want to have

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all your business in one building, or in

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fact in one city.

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I talked to two CEOs who had built their backup systems in

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buildings a couple of blocks-- CHARLIE ROSE And they lost

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them too or not?

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DONALD MARRON --(unintelligible).

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And they lost them too.

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So they're looking again and saying, Do I

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want to do that again?

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So New York is faced with the second issue, maybe bigness

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isn't the strategy.

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Maybe you have to have some of your activities

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outside of New York.

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So that's the second big issue for business and

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people to think about.

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CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON And then the third issue is clearly how do

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you continue this marvelous spirit that's now come into our

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city of building and going forward?

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And that's going to require incentives in the short term.

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CHARLIE ROSE And leadership.

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DONALD MARRON And leadership, extraordinary leadership.

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We're getting it from the mayor, he's not going to be the mayor

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next year, so we need to get it from the next leader.

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We need it from the business community.

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I think we're getting it.

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And we need it for the president, unlike under--

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CHARLIE ROSE Yes, yes.

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DONALD MARRON --Jerry Ford-- CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON --this president wants-- CHARLIE ROSE He did

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say, Drop dead, New York, yes.

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DONALD MARRON --to make sure (unintelligible)-- CHARLIE

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ROSE I mean, it is remarkable that he has clearly understands

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the significance of, and, you know, we've got a Republican

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governor, we've got a Republican mayor, but he understands the

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significance of the federal government saying to New York,

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We're here to help, you know, and it seems to me the president

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reflects an opinion that's around the country.

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DONALD MARRON I think he does.

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And for example, he was asked, What about the surplus?

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CHARLIE ROSE Right.

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DONALD MARRON And he intelligently said, The surplus

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should be there except in case of extremism,

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war, terrorism, recession.

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CHARLIE ROSE Both of which, all of which we have.

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DONALD MARRON All of which we have now.

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This is what the surplus is for, in a way.

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It's a cushion against disaster, and we've

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gotten a disaster now.

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So spent properly, it could mean going forward that this country

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and this city will come out quickly even stronger.

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We'll get the shock over with, and then the rebuilding started.

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CHARLIE ROSE One of the things that he said today was, I mean,

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basically was come to say coming from the commander in chief and

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from the chief executive of the country, you know, that the

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entrepreneur spirit of America, the American spirit, the

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American -- while there may have been this grievous blow to the

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United States and to its economy, you know, that the

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foundation to rebuild was there.

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Is it fair to say that among most all of those business

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leaders, there was a feeling that we have what it takes to

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grow out of this?

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DONALD MARRON Every business leader first felt that we have

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what it takes, secondly volunteered in their own way to

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contribute to what it takes in an extraordinary way.

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And third, is eager to-- CHARLIE ROSE Beyond simply the

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creating jobs-- DONALD MARRON --get on with the show.

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CHARLIE ROSE --and making profits.

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DONALD MARRON Beyond creating jobs and doing things, whether

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it's helping people or doing something

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special in the organization.

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CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON I talked to one person in charge of

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communications, big company, who had done a lot to make sure the

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communications of New York kept going during the first week

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after the crisis.

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They understand that.

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What they want, and business always will want this, is, they

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want some stimulus, whether it's stimulating

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investment by giving

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some sort of bigger credit to what you're doing there, or, I

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think, some sort of credit-- CHARLIE ROSE Tax rates.

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DONALD MARRON --for R&D.

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I think they should be very specific.

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Some were talking about general cuts.

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CHARLIE ROSE You mean, a tax rate for RD, that kind of thing.

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DONALD MARRON Right, that kind of thing.

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CHARLIE ROSE There's an incentive to spend money on RD

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(unintelligible) tax break.

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DONALD MARRON Right, to spend money on R&D, to build new

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plants more quickly, to hire more people, to do the kind of

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things that are important, to rebuild short

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term and long term.

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Yes, it was unified.

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CHARLIE ROSE Is there any talk about somehow rolling back the

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tax cut?

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DONALD MARRON No.

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CHARLIE ROSE No.

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DONALD MARRON There is no talk.

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There's talk about in -- accelerating the impact of the

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tax cut.

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CHARLIE ROSE So that its impact is present today rather

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than five years from now.

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DONALD MARRON That's right.

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And increasing the size of the tax cut, for individuals, in

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order to give them more money in their pocket every month, so we

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can bring back this economy, which is two-thirds based on the

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consumer, bring it back to where it was and then have it go

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forward quickly.

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They may spend the money on different things, but spending

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and income and confidence in this country all go together.

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And in this case, it does start with the government looking at

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immediate things they can do, both to impact them specifically

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and to let them know that we all care.

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CHARLIE ROSE It's amazing how this thing, this tragedy, has

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refocused perception of so many things.

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DONALD MARRON Yes.

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CHARLIE ROSE You know, how we have revived the role of

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government in our lives, a thousand things, you know,

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appreciation for public servants.

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DONALD MARRON No question about that, and-- CHARLIE ROSE

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Businesses contri -- business's responsibility to the society at

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large, business' responsibility to its employees, you know.

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DONALD MARRON And government and business working together in

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the way they hadn't.

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And bipartisanship.

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This has been an extraordinary time.

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If we can keep this part-- CHARLIE ROSE Yes.

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DONALD MARRON --of this and add to it some new resources and

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give it the leadership which is -- now is available, we could

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come out of this stronger than we went into it, however great

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this tragedy was, and we can show the world and ourselves

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that you can't possibly dampen American spirit and growth.

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It's an extraordinary opportunity, the president said,

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and it is.

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And if you judged it by the people I've talked to, the

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people in this meeting, and the government people I've talked

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to, everyone is coordinated in wanting to do that.

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CHARLIE ROSE Thanks for coming.

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DONALD MARRON Nice to be here.

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CHARLIE ROSE Don Marron.

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Back in a moment.

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Stay with us.

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Greek Foreign Minister Says Artifical Barriers Breaking

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CHARLIE ROSE Joining me now is GEORGE PAPANDREOU.

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He has been the foreign minister of Greece since 1999.

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He met today with the U.N.

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secretary general, Kofi Annan, here in New York.

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Yesterday he met with Secretary of State

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Colin Powell in Washington.

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I am pleased to have him on this broadcast

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for the second time.

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Welcome back.

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU, Foreign Minister, Greece I'm very

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pleased to be here, thank you for having me.

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CHARLIE ROSE Yes, nice to have you person to person -- face to

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face here.

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU Yes, that's right.

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CHARLIE ROSE Tell me, first of all, about the conversation with

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the secretary of state yesterday.

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What's the -- what is -- what is, I mean, essentially coming

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out of these conversations that you can share with us?

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What's the subject, what's the, you know, what is the

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agenda, what is the, what is the mandate?

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well, first of all, I think it's very

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important for all of us to come and visit to

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Washington and New York.

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And I've been here in New York to also visit ground zero.

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I was there, there was a Greek Orthodox church there, and of

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course paying respects, many Greeks, Greek-Americans, had

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also died under the rubble.

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That doesn't make things any better or worse, it just shows

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how international this tragedy was.

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This is a very critical period, and people will be -- and

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historians will say that there is a pre-11th of September

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history and there's a post-11th of September history.

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Now, what the history will be is in the making right now.

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And the decisions we make, the United States makes, and NATO

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makes, we as allies make together, it's going to be a

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different world.

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And I think we all have this need not only to come and

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express our solidarity, which I did, and our strong condemnation

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and our will to work together, but also to exchange views.

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And I came also from Moscow, Berlin, and Brussels bringing

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some information from my side.

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We're in a region in Greece, in the Balkans, near the Middle

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East, where we think that these regional problems may be, if you

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like, there is some silver lining to this tragedy, that

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maybe we can get a grip on some of these problems and move them

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forward, and maybe it should be a priority also, if we really

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want to get a wider world alliance against terrorism.

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CHARLIE ROSE OK, you said a lot there, so let me just pick

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up the first thing and do a number of things.

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A pre-September 11 history and a post-September 11 history.

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What's the potential of the post-September 11 history, the

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potential of it?

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What would you hope might be possible and achievable?

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well, maybe to be a bit simplistic here,

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because I -- very difficult to be a prophet at this point.

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On the one hand, you may have a much wider

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development of a conflict.

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We've all been talking about avoiding the civilizational war

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and the war between Islam and the civilized world of the West,

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and that Islam in fact should be part of this civilized world.

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And we see them as allies, the Islamic countries

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and the Arab countries.

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And this is not a religious war.

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So that's one thing to avoid.

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On the other hand, I think it could be an opportunity out of

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this tragedy to say there are rules in this world, there are

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problems in this world, we have to work as a global community

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much more collectively to deal with these effectively, quickly,

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democratically, in solidarity with peoples that have problems.

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And isolate these terrible types of organizations

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that try to use

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-- and I'm not trying to rationalize in any way, I want

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to make a very clear distinction here -- try to use problems

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around the world to further their cause, a terrible cause,

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of trying to wipe out -- this is what bin Laden

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is saying -- wipe

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out civilization basically as we know it.

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So, in a sense, I think what we see now is a shifting alliances,

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a possibility of really new alliances.

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I saw in Russia a great desire, and I think it's reciprocated,

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this possibility of working together.

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Already the U.S.

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and Russia, the European Union, NATO and Russia

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are working together.

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And certainly in Afghanistan, in this crisis here.

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I think this just shows the potential of very different

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types of realignments.

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One thing I think that Putin said which was interesting in

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Germany only a few days ago, he said now the Cold War is over.

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I think what he meant is that now we really realize that there

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are certain types of threats in this world and certain types of

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problems where we can work together rather

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than sort of in competition.

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CHARLIE ROSE And working together may help us understand

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the potential of working together.

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If you work together on a particular kind of issue it

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gives you some process for working together on larger

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issues, whether they may be issues like the environment or

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whether they may be issues having to do with world health

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and a whole range of issues that you might not have been able to

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get together on because the political

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dimension separated you.

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU Absolutely.

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I think what's happened now is also breaking down maybe some

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artificial barriers or sort of the ice, if you like, between

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different relationships that have come from the past.

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And I think this is something we have to use.

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We have to use this moment of tragedy, however maybe ironic

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this may sound, to further human values and the values that we

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cherish so much.

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So I think there is a potential for cooperation in many areas.

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That, of course, is not simple.

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But I do see, and I've met with, as you mentioned, with Colin

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Powell, and I think that the way he's handling it and the

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administration is with caution, with-- CHARLIE ROSE What's he

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asking of you?

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well, we, first of all, have said we want

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to cooperate in any possible way.

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CHARLIE ROSE So you're part of the coalition?

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GEORGE PAPANDREOU Absolutely.

492
00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:10.367
We have already given our air space to allow

493
00:20:10.367 --> 00:20:12.467
flights from the U.S.

494
00:20:12.467 --> 00:20:15.033
Air Force.

495
00:20:15.033 --> 00:20:17.534
They have refueled on a very major base in Greece and Crete.

496
00:20:17.534 --> 00:20:19.968
That we will continue to do.

497
00:20:19.968 --> 00:20:22.300
We working together with the FBI to look at where there may be

498
00:20:22.300 --> 00:20:25.000
suspects if we have any information.

499
00:20:25.000 --> 00:20:27.400
Bank accounts for money laundering.

500
00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:30.033
These are all areas of cooperation.

501
00:20:30.033 --> 00:20:32.901
Also Greece has relations in the region, both in the Balkans

502
00:20:32.901 --> 00:20:36.167
and in the Middle East.

503
00:20:36.167 --> 00:20:39.133
And particularly in the Middle East, any traditional relations

504
00:20:39.133 --> 00:20:42.200
we have we'd liked to help in developing this coalition and

505
00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:45.367
also opening up doors for possible changes in policies

506
00:20:45.367 --> 00:20:48.501
that will be useful in fighting terror.

507
00:20:48.501 --> 00:20:51.467
CHARLIE ROSE When you talk to the secretary general, what's

508
00:20:51.467 --> 00:20:53.934
the message at the U.N., because last night here-- I mean,

509
00:20:53.934 --> 00:20:56.534
there-- first, the coalition.

510
00:20:56.534 --> 00:20:59.334
The coalition as a coalition does not come out

511
00:20:59.334 --> 00:21:02.000
of the United Nations.

512
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.033
United Nations members will be part of this coalition and

513
00:21:05.033 --> 00:21:08.133
they're trying to make it as broad as possible.

514
00:21:08.133 --> 00:21:11.300
Muslim and non-Muslim, bringing together as many people.

515
00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:14.567
People in member states will contribute in a variety of ways,

516
00:21:14.567 --> 00:21:17.501
whether it's allowing fly-over or access to bases, to whether

517
00:21:17.501 --> 00:21:20.534
it's sharing intelligence, whether in the case of Britain--

518
00:21:20.534 --> 00:21:23.734
the British perhaps using troops, providing troops.

519
00:21:23.734 --> 00:21:26.868
A whole range of kinds of things.

520
00:21:26.868 --> 00:21:29.467
There are others who say this ought to be-- take place through

521
00:21:29.467 --> 00:21:31.634
the United Nations, as the deputy finance minister-- the

522
00:21:31.634 --> 00:21:33.901
deputy foreign minister of Iran said to me last

523
00:21:33.901 --> 00:21:36.367
night on this program.

524
00:21:36.367 --> 00:21:39.467
What do you say about that?

525
00:21:39.467 --> 00:21:42.334
What does the secretary general say about that?

526
00:21:42.334 --> 00:21:44.901
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well, first of all, there-- you were talking

527
00:21:44.901 --> 00:21:48.100
about this alliance, this coalition, and I think it was

528
00:21:48.100 --> 00:21:51.400
Secretary Rumsfeld that used the word ''fluid coalition.''

529
00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:54.968
CHARLIE ROSE Yes, yes.

530
00:21:54.968 --> 00:21:58.434
GEORGE PAPANDREOU And this may be the right way to deal with

531
00:21:58.434 --> 00:22:02.000
effectively this particular issue right here of how you deal

532
00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:05.567
with the organization of Osama bin Laden.

533
00:22:05.567 --> 00:22:08.767
Again, I think what's very important is that in this wider

534
00:22:08.767 --> 00:22:12.234
coalition we bring on board the whole world, if possible, all

535
00:22:12.234 --> 00:22:16.167
countries, as many as possible countries, and certainly the

536
00:22:16.167 --> 00:22:20.200
Arab and Islamic world.

537
00:22:20.200 --> 00:22:23.801
Therefore, what we're trying, I think, to do here is really

538
00:22:23.801 --> 00:22:27.367
bring a wedge between the thinking of Osama bin Laden and

539
00:22:27.367 --> 00:22:31.234
the possible followers that he may be trying to develop through

540
00:22:31.234 --> 00:22:34.801
his actions in these countries.

541
00:22:34.801 --> 00:22:39.701
Develop a very-- put in a very strong wedge in between them and

542
00:22:39.701 --> 00:22:43.601
isolate them, de-legitimize the type of acts he has in the, if

543
00:22:43.601 --> 00:22:47.033
you like, consciousness of some of these societies.

544
00:22:47.033 --> 00:22:50.133
CHARLIE ROSE De-legitimize both the acts, as

545
00:22:50.133 --> 00:22:52.934
well as the logic.

546
00:22:52.934 --> 00:22:55.367
GEORGE PAPANDREOU The logic and the whole philosophy.

547
00:22:55.367 --> 00:22:57.434
CHARLIE ROSE The foundation of it.

548
00:22:57.434 --> 00:22:59.234
GEORGE PAPANDREOU And the foundation of it.

549
00:22:59.234 --> 00:23:01.100
In this sense, the U.N.

550
00:23:01.100 --> 00:23:02.968
is very important.

551
00:23:02.968 --> 00:23:05.067
And the U.N.

552
00:23:05.067 --> 00:23:07.400
is very important because the U.N.

553
00:23:07.400 --> 00:23:09.834
is a legitimate, recognized by all, organization and therefore

554
00:23:09.834 --> 00:23:11.901
can play a very-- has a very important role of authority in

555
00:23:11.901 --> 00:23:14.300
this political-- in this political struggle, this

556
00:23:14.300 --> 00:23:16.801
ideological, if you like, struggle that's

557
00:23:16.801 --> 00:23:19.033
taking place now.

558
00:23:19.033 --> 00:23:21.267
Secondly, I think there are many countries that do feel that

559
00:23:21.267 --> 00:23:23.501
they do want the decision of the U.N.

560
00:23:23.501 --> 00:23:25.734
resolution on any action because this then

561
00:23:25.734 --> 00:23:27.968
allows them to be more

562
00:23:27.968 --> 00:23:30.601
active in this fight, in this particular fight with the United

563
00:23:30.601 --> 00:23:33.834
States and other allies.

564
00:23:33.834 --> 00:23:36.701
I would say that Greece also would like to see an important

565
00:23:36.701 --> 00:23:39.467
role of the U.N.

566
00:23:39.467 --> 00:23:42.067
And I do believe that more and more in this globalized world we

567
00:23:42.067 --> 00:23:44.701
will see the role of the U.N.

568
00:23:44.701 --> 00:23:47.667
taking on more importance.

569
00:23:47.667 --> 00:23:51.200
I know there's a big debate, there has been a big debate in

570
00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.100
the United States in the past over the role of the U.N., but I

571
00:23:55.100 --> 00:23:59.067
think this debate will shift quite a bit in a globalized

572
00:23:59.067 --> 00:24:02.567
world where why should it be the United States that is seen as

573
00:24:02.567 --> 00:24:05.400
the one super power which then attracts all these different

574
00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:07.834
groups to hit it and not use a global governance, in a sense.

575
00:24:07.834 --> 00:24:10.200
And so the concept of global governance, I think, will be

576
00:24:10.200 --> 00:24:12.234
more and more important.

577
00:24:12.234 --> 00:24:14.267
And therefore, the U.N.

578
00:24:14.267 --> 00:24:16.267
more and more important in dealing with

579
00:24:16.267 --> 00:24:18.033
these global issues.

580
00:24:18.033 --> 00:24:19.868
CHARLIE ROSE What should-- GEORGE PAPANDREOU That doesn't

581
00:24:19.868 --> 00:24:21.767
change the very important role that the U.S.

582
00:24:21.767 --> 00:24:24.334
will always have.

583
00:24:24.334 --> 00:24:26.901
CHARLIE ROSE What should we be worried about?

584
00:24:26.901 --> 00:24:29.467
I mean, of all those people who want to see terrorism

585
00:24:29.467 --> 00:24:32.033
eradicated and the possibilities and the campaign

586
00:24:32.033 --> 00:24:34.601
to eradicate it

587
00:24:34.601 --> 00:24:37.400
as it begins, both in terms of finance, both in terms of

588
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.167
demanding the Taliban that they give up Osama bin Laden; all

589
00:24:40.167 --> 00:24:44.234
those things that are now coming to a point, we assume, of

590
00:24:44.234 --> 00:24:47.534
increased engagement.

591
00:24:47.534 --> 00:24:50.534
What worries you about it?

592
00:24:50.534 --> 00:24:53.534
What are the land mines that we have be careful

593
00:24:53.534 --> 00:24:56.934
not to step on?

594
00:24:56.934 --> 00:25:00.267
GEORGE PAPANDREOU I think-- I think the U.S.

595
00:25:00.267 --> 00:25:03.334
has played it very well.

596
00:25:03.334 --> 00:25:06.601
I can-- I mean, I've lived in this country, I was born in this

597
00:25:06.601 --> 00:25:10.234
country, as you-- CHARLIE ROSE Educated here?

598
00:25:10.234 --> 00:25:13.868
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Educated here.

599
00:25:13.868 --> 00:25:17.267
This is a huge, huge event in U.S.

600
00:25:17.267 --> 00:25:21.100
history and it's deeply emotional in everyone who lives

601
00:25:21.100 --> 00:25:24.234
here, and I would say around the world also, but obviously

602
00:25:24.234 --> 00:25:27.067
particularly for American citizens.

603
00:25:27.067 --> 00:25:29.868
So I think the gut reaction was easily to shoot from the hip

604
00:25:29.868 --> 00:25:32.367
right away the first day.

605
00:25:32.367 --> 00:25:34.901
CHARLIE ROSE So we avoided that danger?

606
00:25:34.901 --> 00:25:37.400
GEORGE PAPANDREOU That was-- that was being smart, basically.

607
00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:39.934
It's being smart in dealing with this kind of--

608
00:25:39.934 --> 00:25:42.434
and maybe that is

609
00:25:42.434 --> 00:25:46.100
exactly what these terrorists wanted, to create a much major--

610
00:25:46.100 --> 00:25:49.868
bigger, bigger conflict.

611
00:25:49.868 --> 00:25:53.167
So falling into that trap, I think, was avoided.

612
00:25:53.167 --> 00:25:56.234
But then at the same time be very resolute in not only the

613
00:25:56.234 --> 00:25:59.634
condemnation but in developing this fight against terrorism,

614
00:25:59.634 --> 00:26:02.667
this campaign against terrorism.

615
00:26:02.667 --> 00:26:05.968
It is very important to develop this coalition, take all the

616
00:26:05.968 --> 00:26:08.901
measures and work on all forums to do this.

617
00:26:08.901 --> 00:26:11.367
Try to keep this coalition together.

618
00:26:11.367 --> 00:26:13.968
Build it, keep it together and make sure that we bring in the

619
00:26:13.968 --> 00:26:16.133
Islamic world and the Arab world.

620
00:26:16.133 --> 00:26:18.334
They must fight with us also.

621
00:26:18.334 --> 00:26:20.534
I think it's very important that the messages come out that, you

622
00:26:20.534 --> 00:26:22.734
know, this is in our society has nothing to do

623
00:26:22.734 --> 00:26:24.901
with Islam or with

624
00:26:24.901 --> 00:26:27.434
the Arab world.

625
00:26:27.434 --> 00:26:29.834
It has to do with terrorists that have made this terrible,

626
00:26:29.834 --> 00:26:32.200
unjustified act.

627
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:34.501
So I think these are some important elements here.

628
00:26:34.501 --> 00:26:36.734
CHARLIE ROSE You are-- Greece-- your government is a

629
00:26:36.734 --> 00:26:38.534
fully participating member in this coalition.

630
00:26:38.534 --> 00:26:40.234
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Yes, we are.

631
00:26:40.234 --> 00:26:42.033
CHARLIE ROSE You haven't drawn any restrictions in terms of

632
00:26:42.033 --> 00:26:43.901
what you will or will not do?

633
00:26:43.901 --> 00:26:46.000
GEORGE PAPANDREOU No.

634
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.067
We've said that we're open to all kinds of cooperation.

635
00:26:48.067 --> 00:26:51.067
We'll be in consultation with the United States.

636
00:26:51.067 --> 00:26:54.934
And what we have been asked by the United States to

637
00:26:54.934 --> 00:26:58.968
do, we have done.

638
00:26:58.968 --> 00:27:02.200
CHARLIE ROSE How much of a sentiment is there that somehow

639
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:05.434
this is a consequence of something-- of the United States

640
00:27:05.434 --> 00:27:08.100
being too strong and too engaged in too

641
00:27:08.100 --> 00:27:10.601
many unilateral activities?

642
00:27:10.601 --> 00:27:13.868
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well, I think one has to separate two

643
00:27:13.868 --> 00:27:17.000
debates here.

644
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:20.367
And I think it's very important.

645
00:27:20.367 --> 00:27:23.901
On the one hand, there is a very strong condemnation, not

646
00:27:23.901 --> 00:27:27.467
only in our country but throughout Europe, of this act

647
00:27:27.467 --> 00:27:31.234
as an unjustified and immoral act.

648
00:27:31.234 --> 00:27:34.968
But then there is a debate about what are the reasons for this?

649
00:27:34.968 --> 00:27:38.567
Not in any way to justify or rationalize this act, but it's

650
00:27:38.567 --> 00:27:42.167
important to have that debate also if we really want to shed

651
00:27:42.167 --> 00:27:45.234
light on the root causes, whatever they may be, or

652
00:27:45.234 --> 00:27:48.267
whatever causes may be there that actually-- so we can

653
00:27:48.267 --> 00:27:51.334
prevent further development of these types of groups and these

654
00:27:51.334 --> 00:27:54.334
types of activities.

655
00:27:54.334 --> 00:27:57.667
So I think there are two different debates going on here.

656
00:27:57.667 --> 00:28:01.300
I think as time goes by I think it's too early to really delve

657
00:28:01.300 --> 00:28:04.267
into all these root causes because at this point talking

658
00:28:04.267 --> 00:28:07.067
about them a lot is in some sense sort of giving the moral

659
00:28:07.067 --> 00:28:09.667
high ground or giving some moral space to this type of an act.

660
00:28:09.667 --> 00:28:11.868
We can't do that.

661
00:28:11.868 --> 00:28:14.000
CHARLIE ROSE There is time for that kind of reflection.

662
00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:15.868
GEORGE PAPANDREOU There is time for that.

663
00:28:15.868 --> 00:28:17.767
We should do that.

664
00:28:17.767 --> 00:28:19.734
But that's, I think, something we should do as we begin to heal

665
00:28:19.734 --> 00:28:21.501
from the wounds.

666
00:28:21.501 --> 00:28:23.868
CHARLIE ROSE Were you presented-- as foreign minister

667
00:28:23.868 --> 00:28:26.367
of Greece, were you presented with the evidence against Osama

668
00:28:26.367 --> 00:28:28.801
bin Laden?

669
00:28:28.801 --> 00:28:31.467
Did you see it or did they tell you about it?

670
00:28:31.467 --> 00:28:34.133
How does that process go as a contributing country?

671
00:28:34.133 --> 00:28:36.767
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well-- yes, well, we were handed the

672
00:28:36.767 --> 00:28:39.334
evidence this morning in Greece

673
00:28:39.334 --> 00:28:42.667
by the U.S. embassy.

674
00:28:42.667 --> 00:28:45.634
I haven't personally seen it.

675
00:28:45.634 --> 00:28:48.400
I was here in New York and a very busy schedule.

676
00:28:48.400 --> 00:28:50.968
And this evidence was also-- we were informed in NATO, our

677
00:28:50.968 --> 00:28:53.634
permanent representatives there.

678
00:28:53.634 --> 00:28:56.100
So this-- CHARLIE ROSE George Robertson says it's convincing

679
00:28:56.100 --> 00:28:58.767
and compelling.

680
00:28:58.767 --> 00:29:01.067
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Yes, the permanent representatives that

681
00:29:01.067 --> 00:29:04.133
were informed all felt that it was convincing.

682
00:29:04.133 --> 00:29:08.067
Again, I think we have to differentiate here.

683
00:29:08.067 --> 00:29:11.334
This is not a court case.

684
00:29:11.334 --> 00:29:14.334
This is a political conclusion which I think is quite clear

685
00:29:14.334 --> 00:29:17.434
that behind these acts we have a threat from outside that has

686
00:29:17.434 --> 00:29:20.634
attacked a NATO member.

687
00:29:20.634 --> 00:29:23.534
This is the Article V we have invoked.

688
00:29:23.534 --> 00:29:25.968
And the question was was this an attack from outside?

689
00:29:25.968 --> 00:29:28.467
And of course this Article V did refer to a Cold War

690
00:29:28.467 --> 00:29:31.934
situation so it was a slightly-- it was thinking slightly in a

691
00:29:31.934 --> 00:29:35.367
different period.

692
00:29:35.367 --> 00:29:38.467
But still I think if we get beyond the legalistic-- the

693
00:29:38.467 --> 00:29:41.067
legalistic interpretation of Article V it's very clear that

694
00:29:41.067 --> 00:29:43.501
this attack is an attack against-- CHARLIE ROSE An act

695
00:29:43.501 --> 00:29:45.601
of war against-- GEORGE PAPANDREOU An act of war

696
00:29:45.601 --> 00:29:47.634
against a NATO member.

697
00:29:47.634 --> 00:29:49.667
And therefore we are in solidarity

698
00:29:49.667 --> 00:29:51.701
and will work together.

699
00:29:51.701 --> 00:29:53.734
CHARLIE ROSE Demanding response from all.

700
00:29:53.734 --> 00:29:55.767
GEORGE PAPANDREOU That's right.

701
00:29:55.767 --> 00:29:57.767
CHARLIE ROSE Finally, do you have a sense that while

702
00:29:57.767 --> 00:29:59.534
everybody talks about this will not be the kind of war that

703
00:29:59.534 --> 00:30:01.100
they've seen before -- this is not the Gulf War, this is not

704
00:30:01.100 --> 00:30:02.567
another war that we've seen before.

705
00:30:02.567 --> 00:30:04.000
A lot of it will be covert.

706
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.467
A lot of it will be unseen.

707
00:30:05.467 --> 00:30:06.934
A lot of it will have to do with drying up

708
00:30:06.934 --> 00:30:08.367
sources; lots of kinds

709
00:30:08.367 --> 00:30:11.400
of things like that.

710
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:14.901
But do you have any sense with the amassing of all this

711
00:30:14.901 --> 00:30:18.400
firepower over there that it's sooner rather than later?

712
00:30:18.400 --> 00:30:21.834
GEORGE PAPANDREOU The-- well, I think that we have to see

713
00:30:21.834 --> 00:30:25.033
short term and long term strategy here.

714
00:30:25.033 --> 00:30:28.601
Of course, short term has to be linked with how we deal in the

715
00:30:28.601 --> 00:30:31.901
long term with this-- with these types of activities.

716
00:30:31.901 --> 00:30:35.133
I understand that the U.S.

717
00:30:35.133 --> 00:30:37.801
is preparing for a very specific response and they are targeting

718
00:30:37.801 --> 00:30:40.367
very specifically -- and we also talked about this in the

719
00:30:40.367 --> 00:30:42.801
European Union -- a targeted response

720
00:30:42.801 --> 00:30:45.667
particularly to these perpetrators.

721
00:30:45.667 --> 00:30:49.100
We want to see them brought to justice.

722
00:30:49.100 --> 00:30:52.400
I think this is a general feeling.

723
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:55.367
That also means that we should look to a long term to combine

724
00:30:55.367 --> 00:30:58.334
our efforts to deal with an underground type of an activity.

725
00:30:58.334 --> 00:31:01.067
It can't be a traditional type of a war.

726
00:31:01.067 --> 00:31:03.801
You just can't pull out your principles of war handbook and

727
00:31:03.801 --> 00:31:06.834
say this is how we're going to do it.

728
00:31:06.834 --> 00:31:09.734
It's a very different type of an activity.

729
00:31:09.734 --> 00:31:12.400
And much of it has to do with police, but a lot of it has to

730
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.200
do with political, diplomatic and even economic measures and

731
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:18.267
looking at some of the, you know, social and root causes

732
00:31:18.267 --> 00:31:21.467
around the world.

733
00:31:21.467 --> 00:31:24.567
So I think it's a widespread type of a campaign which will

734
00:31:24.567 --> 00:31:27.601
redefine much of our foreign policy thinking, redefine many

735
00:31:27.601 --> 00:31:30.400
of our coalitions, realign the world powers.

736
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:32.968
But this is also a very important opportunity, I think,

737
00:31:32.968 --> 00:31:35.601
that we should use in doing so.

738
00:31:35.601 --> 00:31:38.501
CHARLIE ROSE Greece and Turkey will become friends?

739
00:31:38.501 --> 00:31:41.167
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Well, we're already trying to do so.

740
00:31:41.167 --> 00:31:43.834
I think we've developed a very different relationship over the

741
00:31:43.834 --> 00:31:46.133
past two years where we've worked very hard.

742
00:31:46.133 --> 00:31:48.667
That doesn't mean we've solved all our problems.

743
00:31:48.667 --> 00:31:51.367
Cyprus, for example, is a big problem which will make or break

744
00:31:51.367 --> 00:31:54.133
our relationship, I believe.

745
00:31:54.133 --> 00:31:56.934
And what we've said in Greece is that if we can get together

746
00:31:56.934 --> 00:31:59.267
Greece and Turkey, as we're doing now, and working together

747
00:31:59.267 --> 00:32:01.501
from fighting crime, working against terrorism, questions of

748
00:32:01.501 --> 00:32:03.701
illegal immigration, environment,

749
00:32:03.701 --> 00:32:05.834
demining our borders.

750
00:32:05.834 --> 00:32:07.968
CHARLIE ROSE Fighting terrorism?

751
00:32:07.968 --> 00:32:10.033
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Fighting terrorism, absolutely.

752
00:32:10.033 --> 00:32:12.100
This is a new area of cooperation.

753
00:32:12.100 --> 00:32:13.901
We've already signed an agreement.

754
00:32:13.901 --> 00:32:16.000
We should be able to get the two communities -- Greeks Cypriots

755
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:17.868
and Turkish Cypriots -- to live together as a showcase of

756
00:32:17.868 --> 00:32:20.200
cooperation on this island.

757
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:22.234
So I would say that, yes, it's a difficult relationship but

758
00:32:22.234 --> 00:32:24.234
we're on a new path.

759
00:32:24.234 --> 00:32:26.234
And new paths maybe have their twists and turns, but we know

760
00:32:26.234 --> 00:32:28.234
where we're going.

761
00:32:28.234 --> 00:32:30.434
And that is a new relationship between Greece and Turkey -- a

762
00:32:30.434 --> 00:32:32.567
peaceful one.

763
00:32:32.567 --> 00:32:34.400
And a peaceful one in the whole region of the Balkans.

764
00:32:34.400 --> 00:32:36.300
And we're working hard for that and I think it's very promising.

765
00:32:36.300 --> 00:32:38.200
CHARLIE ROSE Thank you for coming.

766
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:39.868
GEORGE PAPANDREOU Thank you.

767
00:32:39.868 --> 00:32:41.634
CHARLIE ROSE A pleasure to have you here.

768
00:32:41.634 --> 00:32:45.300
Foreign Minister Papandreou of Greece.

769
00:32:45.300 --> 00:32:48.634
Back in a moment.

770
00:32:48.634 --> 00:32:51.601
Stay with us.

771
00:32:51.601 --> 00:32:54.367
Law Prof Urges Sunset Clause in Emergency Security Laws

772
00:32:54.367 --> 00:32:56.667
CHARLIE ROSE Joining me now from Boston is LAURENCE TRIBE, a

773
00:32:56.667 --> 00:32:58.901
professor of constitutional law at the Harvard Law School.

774
00:32:58.901 --> 00:33:01.200
I'm pleased to have him here.

775
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:04.400
LAURENCE TRIBE, Professor, Harvard University Good to be

776
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:08.501
here, Charlie.

777
00:33:08.501 --> 00:33:12.701
CHARLIE ROSE Tell me what issues you think we ought to be

778
00:33:12.701 --> 00:33:17.000
mindful of in the aftermath of the tragedy of September 11th,

779
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:21.100
as well as a nation on a mission to-- against terrorism.

780
00:33:21.100 --> 00:33:25.100
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, I think, first and foremost, we have to

781
00:33:25.100 --> 00:33:28.968
do everything that we can within the limits of the Constitution

782
00:33:28.968 --> 00:33:33.100
to protect the people of the United States against any

783
00:33:33.100 --> 00:33:37.267
recurrence of-- of this kind of tragedy.

784
00:33:37.267 --> 00:33:41.534
We have to be ready for the possibility that no matter what

785
00:33:41.534 --> 00:33:45.601
we do, our security procedures will not be foolproof, and so

786
00:33:45.601 --> 00:33:49.868
the nation has to continue on a course that I think it's begun

787
00:33:49.868 --> 00:33:54.167
of finding itself in a kind of solidarity that I hope will

788
00:33:54.167 --> 00:33:58.667
prove constructive.

789
00:33:58.667 --> 00:34:03.033
One of the things we have to guard against in the process of

790
00:34:03.033 --> 00:34:07.567
coming together is that we not isolate the 6 to 10 million

791
00:34:07.567 --> 00:34:11.667
American citizens who are either of Arab descent, or who look

792
00:34:11.667 --> 00:34:15.033
like they are, and who might become the victims of either

793
00:34:15.033 --> 00:34:18.033
kind of vigilante action or discrimination in the form of

794
00:34:18.033 --> 00:34:20.968
ethnic and racial profiling, either by the

795
00:34:20.968 --> 00:34:23.400
government or by employers.

796
00:34:23.400 --> 00:34:26.000
I think we have to worry about that.

797
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:28.200
And we have to worry about individual

798
00:34:28.200 --> 00:34:30.801
liberties for all of us.

799
00:34:30.801 --> 00:34:33.767
That is, clearly, the Constitution is

800
00:34:33.767 --> 00:34:36.234
not a suicide pact.

801
00:34:36.234 --> 00:34:38.934
It's flexible enough to allow a great deal of what the

802
00:34:38.934 --> 00:34:41.200
administration wants Congress to allow, but not necessarily all

803
00:34:41.200 --> 00:34:43.934
of it.

804
00:34:43.934 --> 00:34:47.000
So I think Congress has to be vigilant to

805
00:34:47.000 --> 00:34:50.667
protect civil liberties.

806
00:34:50.667 --> 00:34:54.501
And finally, and very importantly, whatever we do in

807
00:34:54.501 --> 00:34:58.501
this period of emergency to increase electronic

808
00:34:58.501 --> 00:35:02.400
eavesdropping, to allow the government to peer in on our

809
00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:06.601
email, any of the things we do to allow detention of various

810
00:35:06.601 --> 00:35:10.367
people on less than the usual basis, should be made temporary.

811
00:35:10.367 --> 00:35:13.767
Emergency measures should have a sunset provision because we

812
00:35:13.767 --> 00:35:16.834
really should not project into the indefinite future measures

813
00:35:16.834 --> 00:35:19.634
that we take now to deal with the crisis.

814
00:35:19.634 --> 00:35:22.267
CHARLIE ROSE How do you-- how do you establish an end point on

815
00:35:22.267 --> 00:35:25.434
things like that?

816
00:35:25.434 --> 00:35:28.634
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, it's always going to be a little

817
00:35:28.634 --> 00:35:32.000
arbitrary, but we have some experience.

818
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:35.400
There was a five-year sunset on the independent counsel law, and

819
00:35:35.400 --> 00:35:39.000
very few people regretted it when that sunset came.

820
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.167
There's a 10-year sunset on the tax cut.

821
00:35:42.167 --> 00:35:45.367
Something like this, which involves tampering with personal

822
00:35:45.367 --> 00:35:48.334
liberty, I think, needs to be done for a shorter period.

823
00:35:48.334 --> 00:35:51.300
I would myself say three years.

824
00:35:51.300 --> 00:35:54.567
And then, at that point, of course, Congress can look at it

825
00:35:54.567 --> 00:35:57.901
again and reenact it.

826
00:35:57.901 --> 00:36:01.434
On thing, though, I'd say, Charlie, about a sunset-- I

827
00:36:01.434 --> 00:36:05.033
understand from talking to some people on the Hill that a number

828
00:36:05.033 --> 00:36:08.400
of people think if we put a limit, a time limit, a sunset

829
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.868
clause on emergency measures that we enact, then we don't

830
00:36:11.868 --> 00:36:14.701
have to be very careful about whether we do or do not violate

831
00:36:14.701 --> 00:36:18.033
individual liberties in the meantime, just buy the whole

832
00:36:18.033 --> 00:36:21.467
package that the administration is proposing in

833
00:36:21.467 --> 00:36:24.334
return for a sunset.

834
00:36:24.334 --> 00:36:27.300
I think that's really bargaining away the liberty of all of us.

835
00:36:27.300 --> 00:36:30.467
It is, after all, that liberty, the freedom that we enjoy, that

836
00:36:30.467 --> 00:36:33.767
we are trying to protect.

837
00:36:33.767 --> 00:36:36.767
It's not just the physical security of the United States.

838
00:36:36.767 --> 00:36:39.801
It's not just the towering structures that were lost in

839
00:36:39.801 --> 00:36:42.834
that tragedy, but it is a system of democracy and liberty.

840
00:36:42.834 --> 00:36:45.634
And we ought not to sell it cheaply.

841
00:36:45.634 --> 00:36:48.334
CHARLIE ROSE Can you tell me one policy or one initiative or

842
00:36:48.334 --> 00:36:51.434
one proposed congressional legislation that you think

843
00:36:51.434 --> 00:36:55.167
perhaps goes too far-- LAURENCE TRIBE Sure.

844
00:36:55.167 --> 00:36:59.200
CHARLIE ROSE --or desperately needs a sunset provision?

845
00:36:59.200 --> 00:37:03.701
LAURENCE TRIBE I think the provision which says that anyone

846
00:37:03.701 --> 00:37:07.667
who made a contribution to an organization, even at a time

847
00:37:07.667 --> 00:37:10.901
when it was not listed as a terrorist organization, which

848
00:37:10.901 --> 00:37:13.834
has some affiliation with any group that was engaged in an act

849
00:37:13.834 --> 00:37:17.667
of violence with a weapon, maybe be deported if that person is a

850
00:37:17.667 --> 00:37:21.801
resident alien.

851
00:37:21.801 --> 00:37:25.734
That means that a great many people in the United States who

852
00:37:25.734 --> 00:37:28.934
contributed to pro-life causes or to the African National

853
00:37:28.934 --> 00:37:32.400
Congress or to a group that was trying to make the IRA more

854
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.834
peaceful would suddenly be subject to some

855
00:37:35.834 --> 00:37:39.367
very Draconian measures.

856
00:37:39.367 --> 00:37:42.801
So that essentially, those parts of the package which jeopardize

857
00:37:42.801 --> 00:37:46.234
freedom of political association need to be looked at more

858
00:37:46.234 --> 00:37:48.868
carefully and tightened up, in addition to being subjected to a

859
00:37:48.868 --> 00:37:51.534
sunset clause, I think.

860
00:37:51.534 --> 00:37:54.200
I would contrast that, though, with a whole bunch of provisions

861
00:37:54.200 --> 00:37:56.868
that are simply catching up with technology that

862
00:37:56.868 --> 00:37:59.501
has run ahead of

863
00:37:59.501 --> 00:38:03.167
our laws.

864
00:38:03.167 --> 00:38:07.167
A perfect example is the fact that right now, under existing

865
00:38:07.167 --> 00:38:10.968
law, to get a wiretap, it's got to be limited to a particular

866
00:38:10.968 --> 00:38:14.601
phone-- a particular phone-- rather than following the

867
00:38:14.601 --> 00:38:17.734
individual, who might have a disposable cell phone, around.

868
00:38:17.734 --> 00:38:21.267
Clearly, that doesn't make any sense, and among other things,

869
00:38:21.267 --> 00:38:24.934
when you get a wiretap on a particular phone, you capture a

870
00:38:24.934 --> 00:38:29.033
lot more innocent conversations.

871
00:38:29.033 --> 00:38:33.434
I think another example of something that would not be an

872
00:38:33.434 --> 00:38:38.133
unconstitutional invasion and is not a part of this bill is

873
00:38:38.133 --> 00:38:42.734
authorization for broader use of face-recognition technology in

874
00:38:42.734 --> 00:38:47.133
large groups at major sporting events or Disneyland or whatever

875
00:38:47.133 --> 00:38:51.234
because it seems to me in that way, that if we use computer

876
00:38:51.234 --> 00:38:55.834
software that is much more capable of matching faces with

877
00:38:55.834 --> 00:39:00.667
what we know about various suspects and their associates,

878
00:39:00.667 --> 00:39:04.534
we will have much less temptation to use the very crude

879
00:39:04.534 --> 00:39:07.701
device of racial profiling and really subjecting to harassment

880
00:39:07.701 --> 00:39:10.567
and humiliation 6 to 10 million people in order to

881
00:39:10.567 --> 00:39:13.467
catch 60 or 100.

882
00:39:13.467 --> 00:39:16.167
CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

883
00:39:16.167 --> 00:39:18.801
It seems to me-- I mean, I-- really, that's a danger, and

884
00:39:18.801 --> 00:39:21.267
it-- because it's a danger, the administration and others, from

885
00:39:21.267 --> 00:39:23.667
the president on down, have spoken out against racial

886
00:39:23.667 --> 00:39:26.000
profiling-- LAURENCE TRIBE That's right.

887
00:39:26.000 --> 00:39:28.000
CHARLIE ROSE --in a significant way and-- and have

888
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.000
done it more visible ways than-- than you might have expected,

889
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:31.968
for example-- LAURENCE TRIBE And that's been terrific.

890
00:39:31.968 --> 00:39:34.234
CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

891
00:39:34.234 --> 00:39:36.167
Going to a mosque and doing a whole series of things.

892
00:39:36.167 --> 00:39:37.868
LAURENCE TRIBE And that's-- that's part of what makes me a

893
00:39:37.868 --> 00:39:39.834
little hopeful because that's very different from the reaction

894
00:39:39.834 --> 00:39:42.234
after Pearl Harbor.

895
00:39:42.234 --> 00:39:44.567
CHARLIE ROSE Sure.

896
00:39:44.567 --> 00:39:47.000
LAURENCE TRIBE You didn't see FDR preventing the detention.

897
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.067
He was part of the policy of detaining Americans of Japanese

898
00:39:49.067 --> 00:39:51.467
origin who didn't do the first thing wrong.

899
00:39:51.467 --> 00:39:53.467
Seventy-five thousand of them lost their homes and were taken

900
00:39:53.467 --> 00:39:55.501
to detention camps.

901
00:39:55.501 --> 00:39:57.701
And at that point, even liberals like Earl Warren

902
00:39:57.701 --> 00:40:00.467
were all for it.

903
00:40:00.467 --> 00:40:03.234
I think we've learned some lessons.

904
00:40:03.234 --> 00:40:06.000
The fact that Mayor Giuliani initially, and then President

905
00:40:06.000 --> 00:40:08.801
Bush and also Secretary of State Powell, went to

906
00:40:08.801 --> 00:40:11.567
mosques and took

907
00:40:11.567 --> 00:40:14.801
various opportunities to stress that this is not a war against

908
00:40:14.801 --> 00:40:17.567
Islam, that it is not our belief that being Muslim or being of

909
00:40:17.567 --> 00:40:20.567
Arab origin makes you likely to be a terrorist and that people

910
00:40:20.567 --> 00:40:23.400
should grow up.

911
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:26.400
Now, that's great.

912
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:29.534
But on the other hand, you still read every day-- and there must

913
00:40:29.534 --> 00:40:32.868
be a lot more than we read about.

914
00:40:32.868 --> 00:40:35.901
You read about episodes of people being forced off planes,

915
00:40:35.901 --> 00:40:38.634
people being manhandled, people being beat up.

916
00:40:38.634 --> 00:40:41.200
One guy who was a Sikh and not a Muslim was killed, you know?

917
00:40:41.200 --> 00:40:43.634
And I think that's a serious problem.

918
00:40:43.634 --> 00:40:45.934
CHARLIE ROSE But clearly-- clearly, it is.

919
00:40:45.934 --> 00:40:48.434
And there have been those kinds of incidents all over the

920
00:40:48.434 --> 00:40:50.567
country-- LAURENCE TRIBE Right.

921
00:40:50.567 --> 00:40:52.734
CHARLIE ROSE --from region to region, where people have been

922
00:40:52.734 --> 00:40:55.601
singled out for-- either-- for some kind of violent

923
00:40:55.601 --> 00:40:58.367
act against them.

924
00:40:58.367 --> 00:41:00.434
But on the other hand, it seems to me that, you know, as the

925
00:41:00.434 --> 00:41:02.501
point you've well taken, that there has been-- we-- the press

926
00:41:02.501 --> 00:41:04.567
and government officials and you and others have written and

927
00:41:04.567 --> 00:41:06.634
spoken to that issue, to give it a much

928
00:41:06.634 --> 00:41:08.701
more up-front sensitivity

929
00:41:08.701 --> 00:41:11.200
than it's ever had before.

930
00:41:11.200 --> 00:41:13.734
You know.

931
00:41:13.734 --> 00:41:16.133
LAURENCE TRIBE I think that's right.

932
00:41:16.133 --> 00:41:18.534
And that's-- I hope-- I hope that's going to help reduce the

933
00:41:18.534 --> 00:41:21.200
amount of this kind of-- CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

934
00:41:21.200 --> 00:41:23.801
LAURENCE TRIBE --discrimination.

935
00:41:23.801 --> 00:41:26.267
What I'm afraid of, in particular, though, is even if

936
00:41:26.267 --> 00:41:28.601
we manage to strike what looks like a reasonable kind of

937
00:41:28.601 --> 00:41:30.868
balance-- CHARLIE ROSE Right.

938
00:41:30.868 --> 00:41:33.067
LAURENCE TRIBE --and give up some security-- give up some

939
00:41:33.067 --> 00:41:35.634
privacy and-- CHARLIE ROSE Right.

940
00:41:35.634 --> 00:41:37.801
LAURENCE TRIBE --some liberty for security, if there is

941
00:41:37.801 --> 00:41:40.334
another terrorist episode in the face of that, I think that the

942
00:41:40.334 --> 00:41:43.200
climate will heat up a great deal and people will say, ''What

943
00:41:43.200 --> 00:41:46.701
we did was not enough.

944
00:41:46.701 --> 00:41:50.434
Now we've really got to go full throttle.'' And I think we have

945
00:41:50.434 --> 00:41:53.501
to prepare ourselves in advance, psychologically and otherwise,

946
00:41:53.501 --> 00:41:56.801
not to overreact and to expect that there are going to be other

947
00:41:56.801 --> 00:42:00.167
incidents that are tragic and-- and perhaps monstrous.

948
00:42:00.167 --> 00:42:03.767
Surely, one hopes not.

949
00:42:03.767 --> 00:42:07.801
CHARLIE ROSE But what liberties-- can you make an

950
00:42:07.801 --> 00:42:10.701
argument, as-- as a renowned constitutional scholar and-- and

951
00:42:10.701 --> 00:42:13.634
defender and protector and articulate interpreter of

952
00:42:13.634 --> 00:42:16.534
Constitution, that in this kind of-- that we are at the very

953
00:42:16.534 --> 00:42:19.434
kind of national crisis in which we have to have

954
00:42:19.434 --> 00:42:22.367
some invasion of

955
00:42:22.367 --> 00:42:25.734
privacy and we have to have some restriction on liberties, as we

956
00:42:25.734 --> 00:42:29.300
have known them before?

957
00:42:29.300 --> 00:42:32.434
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, when you say ''invasion of privacy,''

958
00:42:32.434 --> 00:42:35.067
Charlie, I think I would distinguish an unconstitutional

959
00:42:35.067 --> 00:42:37.501
intrusion from coming right close to the core.

960
00:42:37.501 --> 00:42:40.234
CHARLIE ROSE Where is the constitutional intrusion?

961
00:42:40.234 --> 00:42:42.501
Where does it begin?

962
00:42:42.501 --> 00:42:45.000
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, I mean, unfortunately -- or maybe

963
00:42:45.000 --> 00:42:47.100
fortunately -- the Constitution speaks in quite flexible terms

964
00:42:47.100 --> 00:42:49.534
about that.

965
00:42:49.534 --> 00:42:52.067
It says that there shall be no unreasonable

966
00:42:52.067 --> 00:42:54.200
searches and seizures.

967
00:42:54.200 --> 00:42:56.434
And the Court has held on other occasions that what is

968
00:42:56.434 --> 00:42:59.167
reasonable depends on the context.

969
00:42:59.167 --> 00:43:02.267
CHARLIE ROSE Right.

970
00:43:02.267 --> 00:43:05.300
LAURENCE TRIBE And I think it's pretty clear that when

971
00:43:05.300 --> 00:43:08.767
6,000 people have been killed in one of the most grotesque acts

972
00:43:08.767 --> 00:43:12.133
in, sort of, I guess, recorded history-- I hate to be

973
00:43:12.133 --> 00:43:15.801
apocalyptic, but I don't know of any other episode quite like

974
00:43:15.801 --> 00:43:19.367
this in peacetime, suddenly picking innocent women,

975
00:43:19.367 --> 00:43:22.901
children, men-- I mean, it's just astonishing.

976
00:43:22.901 --> 00:43:26.434
And when it happens in a way that gives us every reason to

977
00:43:26.434 --> 00:43:29.767
think that it might happen again, by people you can't deter

978
00:43:29.767 --> 00:43:32.767
because they're ready to die for their cause, then that means

979
00:43:32.767 --> 00:43:35.267
that what is reasonable by way of search and seizure is a lot

980
00:43:35.267 --> 00:43:37.767
more intrusive than what would be reasonable in ordinary times.

981
00:43:37.767 --> 00:43:39.868
CHARLIE ROSE And that's OK with you.

982
00:43:39.868 --> 00:43:41.968
LAURENCE TRIBE Exactly.

983
00:43:41.968 --> 00:43:44.033
But I think that we still have to apply a

984
00:43:44.033 --> 00:43:45.834
constitutional standard.

985
00:43:45.834 --> 00:43:47.734
That is, it doesn't mean anything goes.

986
00:43:47.734 --> 00:43:49.434
It doesn't mean that the government--

987
00:43:49.434 --> 00:43:51.200
CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

988
00:43:51.200 --> 00:43:52.767
So-- LAURENCE TRIBE --should be free to

989
00:43:52.767 --> 00:43:54.434
completely obliterate rights.

990
00:43:54.434 --> 00:43:56.367
CHARLIE ROSE So where do we find the

991
00:43:56.367 --> 00:43:58.467
constitutional standard?

992
00:43:58.467 --> 00:44:00.534
Do we then say what is reasonable and then go and look

993
00:44:00.534 --> 00:44:02.334
at other, similar kinds of national crisis and see what was

994
00:44:02.334 --> 00:44:04.200
considered reasonable in those times and where there was an

995
00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:05.834
interpretation of the

996
00:44:05.834 --> 00:44:07.567
Constitution about reasonableness?

997
00:44:07.567 --> 00:44:09.334
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, if we look for it, we won't find it--

998
00:44:09.334 --> 00:44:11.467
CHARLIE ROSE Exactly.

999
00:44:11.467 --> 00:44:13.767
LAURENCE TRIBE --because there really is no-- first of all,

1000
00:44:13.767 --> 00:44:16.100
there's no precedent quite like it.

1001
00:44:16.100 --> 00:44:18.367
In the Civil War, a great deal of what Lincoln did, in terms of

1002
00:44:18.367 --> 00:44:21.067
suspending the writ of habeas corpus, all kinds of other

1003
00:44:21.067 --> 00:44:24.100
measures fare more drastic than what anyone is proposing here,

1004
00:44:24.100 --> 00:44:27.334
didn't really get tested in the courts.

1005
00:44:27.334 --> 00:44:30.767
So I think rather than asking what was said in the past in

1006
00:44:30.767 --> 00:44:34.734
terrible crises about what is reasonable, we probably have to

1007
00:44:34.734 --> 00:44:38.634
develop a way of thinking about it case by case.

1008
00:44:38.634 --> 00:44:42.767
That is, if someone challenges a provision of the

1009
00:44:42.767 --> 00:44:46.567
Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001 on the ground that, for example,

1010
00:44:46.567 --> 00:44:50.100
having roving wiretaps rather than wiretaps connected to a

1011
00:44:50.100 --> 00:44:53.267
phone amounts to an unreasonable and excessive search, as some

1012
00:44:53.267 --> 00:44:56.534
are arguing, I think a court will listen to that.

1013
00:44:56.534 --> 00:44:59.868
It will listen to the reasons why the government thinks it

1014
00:44:59.868 --> 00:45:03.567
needs that authority.

1015
00:45:03.567 --> 00:45:06.901
It will consider whether anything less intrusive will do.

1016
00:45:06.901 --> 00:45:10.167
It will consider whether what the government is doing might be

1017
00:45:10.167 --> 00:45:13.234
in some ways less intrusive because innocent users of a

1018
00:45:13.234 --> 00:45:16.567
stationary phone won't be captured.

1019
00:45:16.567 --> 00:45:19.701
And in the end, it's a matter of an intuitive balance, a

1020
00:45:19.701 --> 00:45:22.534
judgment call.

1021
00:45:22.534 --> 00:45:25.267
And those people who would like it to be more mechanical I think

1022
00:45:25.267 --> 00:45:27.601
are going to be disappointed.

1023
00:45:27.601 --> 00:45:29.868
CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

1024
00:45:29.868 --> 00:45:32.467
In the end, what is reasonable depends on what a majority of

1025
00:45:32.467 --> 00:45:35.167
nine Justices say.

1026
00:45:35.167 --> 00:45:37.767
LAURENCE TRIBE I think that's right.

1027
00:45:37.767 --> 00:45:40.801
And this particular group of nine Justices does not defer

1028
00:45:40.801 --> 00:45:43.501
very much to anybody-- not to the Congress, not to the states,

1029
00:45:43.501 --> 00:45:46.100
not to the golfing association.

1030
00:45:46.100 --> 00:45:49.133
So it is very much a matter of the-- the intuitive sense of

1031
00:45:49.133 --> 00:45:52.334
nine people.

1032
00:45:52.334 --> 00:45:55.400
And for better or for worse, that's where we are.

1033
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:58.601
And that is one reason why I think it would be folly for

1034
00:45:58.601 --> 00:46:01.601
Congress, in passing these measures, to do what it so often

1035
00:46:01.601 --> 00:46:04.067
does, and that is pass the buck to the judiciary, say, ''Look,

1036
00:46:04.067 --> 00:46:06.601
if this goes too far, they'll tell us it goes too far.''

1037
00:46:06.601 --> 00:46:09.267
There's also an internal political check we should keep

1038
00:46:09.267 --> 00:46:12.234
in mind.

1039
00:46:12.234 --> 00:46:15.567
As long as we don't pick on minorities who might not be

1040
00:46:15.567 --> 00:46:18.801
fully represented in the political process, and as long

1041
00:46:18.801 --> 00:46:22.167
as we adopt measures that, in effect, apply to all of us, then

1042
00:46:22.167 --> 00:46:25.634
a kind of Golden Rule of the political process will prevent

1043
00:46:25.634 --> 00:46:29.334
us from going much too far.

1044
00:46:29.334 --> 00:46:32.934
And rather than passing the buck to the judges and giving up on

1045
00:46:32.934 --> 00:46:35.901
democracy, I think we ought to rely on the internal political

1046
00:46:35.901 --> 00:46:38.601
check and think hard when we do it whether it's reasonable and

1047
00:46:38.601 --> 00:46:41.133
put a sunset clause so that we're not gambling away too much

1048
00:46:41.133 --> 00:46:43.834
of the future.

1049
00:46:43.834 --> 00:46:46.767
CHARLIE ROSE What do you think of those who suggest-- someone

1050
00:46:46.767 --> 00:46:50.100
told me there was a very interesting discussion in New

1051
00:46:50.100 --> 00:46:53.367
York City today among some interesting people about this

1052
00:46:53.367 --> 00:46:56.834
notion that the CIA ought to have expanded powers in this

1053
00:46:56.834 --> 00:47:00.467
circumstance to go and search out and kill people now defined

1054
00:47:00.467 --> 00:47:04.267
as the enemy?

1055
00:47:04.267 --> 00:47:07.934
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, as long as it's abroad, as long as we're

1056
00:47:07.934 --> 00:47:11.634
talking about lifting the 1976 ban on assassinating someone

1057
00:47:11.634 --> 00:47:14.667
abroad, I would really have no problem with it, I have to say.

1058
00:47:14.667 --> 00:47:17.434
CHARLIE ROSE But we first have to lift this ban, the

1059
00:47:17.434 --> 00:47:19.767
legislation that was enacted in 1976.

1060
00:47:19.767 --> 00:47:22.033
LAURENCE TRIBE Yeah.

1061
00:47:22.033 --> 00:47:24.200
I think, actually, it was just an executive order-- CHARLIE

1062
00:47:24.200 --> 00:47:26.234
ROSE Oh.

1063
00:47:26.234 --> 00:47:28.367
LAURENCE TRIBE --rather than legislation.

1064
00:47:28.367 --> 00:47:30.467
That I don't think is a problem.

1065
00:47:30.467 --> 00:47:32.534
CHARLIE ROSE So what happens with an executive order, it just

1066
00:47:32.534 --> 00:47:34.567
has to be changed by the president?

1067
00:47:34.567 --> 00:47:36.601
LAURENCE TRIBE That's right.

1068
00:47:36.601 --> 00:47:38.634
He just has to sign another order.

1069
00:47:38.634 --> 00:47:40.667
Now, I have to say, I haven't looked at the provision.

1070
00:47:40.667 --> 00:47:42.701
There's a possibility it was codified in a statute.

1071
00:47:42.701 --> 00:47:45.033
But Congress, I'm sure, would lift it in a minute.

1072
00:47:45.033 --> 00:47:47.267
But if we were talking about giving the CIA the power to go

1073
00:47:47.267 --> 00:47:49.467
around and kill people in the United States, summary

1074
00:47:49.467 --> 00:47:51.601
execution, in effect-- I mean, clearly, I think nobody would be

1075
00:47:51.601 --> 00:47:54.434
for that.

1076
00:47:54.434 --> 00:47:57.801
CHARLIE ROSE You know, it's interesting.

1077
00:47:57.801 --> 00:48:01.167
I mean, I don't-- there doesn't seem to be, in terms of where

1078
00:48:01.167 --> 00:48:03.634
people have written things that seem to be not tough enough--

1079
00:48:03.634 --> 00:48:06.100
tough enough on the atrocious deeds done by the individuals,

1080
00:48:06.100 --> 00:48:08.567
by some description of them, because they chose to commit

1081
00:48:08.567 --> 00:48:11.033
suicide, take their own life and do what

1082
00:48:11.033 --> 00:48:13.501
they did-- boy, there've

1083
00:48:13.501 --> 00:48:16.400
been-- I'm told by some of these writers that there's been

1084
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:19.601
amazing tough reaction against them.

1085
00:48:19.601 --> 00:48:22.834
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, I hope so.

1086
00:48:22.834 --> 00:48:25.734
I mean-- CHARLIE ROSE The public appetite is just-- ''I

1087
00:48:25.734 --> 00:48:28.534
don't want to hear any kind words having to do with the

1088
00:48:28.534 --> 00:48:31.734
character or description of the people who did this.'' LAURENCE

1089
00:48:31.734 --> 00:48:35.434
TRIBE Right.

1090
00:48:35.434 --> 00:48:39.033
Well, I think, quite understandably, people -- and I

1091
00:48:39.033 --> 00:48:42.300
include myself in this feeling -- think that anything that, in

1092
00:48:42.300 --> 00:48:45.267
effect, rationalizes this monstrous act, that even sounds

1093
00:48:45.267 --> 00:48:48.033
like it's trying to excuse it, by saying, ''Well, you know, the

1094
00:48:48.033 --> 00:48:51.000
United States has done some terrible stuff, too''-- CHARLIE

1095
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:53.901
ROSE Yeah.

1096
00:48:53.901 --> 00:48:56.601
LAURENCE TRIBE --which it has-- I think is an obscene

1097
00:48:56.601 --> 00:48:59.100
disservice to the firemen who died-- CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

1098
00:48:59.100 --> 00:49:01.067
LAURENCE TRIBE --to everybody else who died.

1099
00:49:01.067 --> 00:49:03.033
I don't think that's the way to go.

1100
00:49:03.033 --> 00:49:05.033
But on the other hand, I think a kind of blood lust, a thought

1101
00:49:05.033 --> 00:49:07.000
that we've got to bomb somebody, and if we don't

1102
00:49:07.000 --> 00:49:08.968
do it within the

1103
00:49:08.968 --> 00:49:11.167
next week-- CHARLIE ROSE Yeah.

1104
00:49:11.167 --> 00:49:13.334
LAURENCE TRIBE --it's going to be terrible-- I think that is

1105
00:49:13.334 --> 00:49:15.467
also kind of an abandonment of our values-- CHARLIE ROSE Do

1106
00:49:15.467 --> 00:49:17.567
you hear-- LAURENCE TRIBE --and we need to

1107
00:49:17.567 --> 00:49:19.634
guard against that.

1108
00:49:19.634 --> 00:49:21.667
CHARLIE ROSE --that, though, now?

1109
00:49:21.667 --> 00:49:23.734
I mean, do you have a sense that that is out there, that we

1110
00:49:23.734 --> 00:49:26.000
have to bomb somebody?

1111
00:49:26.000 --> 00:49:27.934
Is that pressure building in any way, based on-- LAURENCE

1112
00:49:27.934 --> 00:49:29.667
TRIBE I don't have, you know, an accurate weathervane, but--

1113
00:49:29.667 --> 00:49:31.434
CHARLIE ROSE I realize Harvard-- the Harvard campus is

1114
00:49:31.434 --> 00:49:33.300
not exactly, you know, America.

1115
00:49:33.300 --> 00:49:35.167
LAURENCE TRIBE Right.

1116
00:49:35.167 --> 00:49:37.067
But in terms of-- CHARLIE ROSE But it's-- (crosstalk) LAURENCE

1117
00:49:37.067 --> 00:49:38.767
TRIBE You know, I watch a lot of television and stuff.

1118
00:49:38.767 --> 00:49:40.667
No, I think-- I don't know anything about that that you

1119
00:49:40.667 --> 00:49:42.634
wouldn't know or that anybody else just

1120
00:49:42.634 --> 00:49:44.400
listening wouldn't know.

1121
00:49:44.400 --> 00:49:46.534
My sense is that people-- a lot of people are going to be

1122
00:49:46.534 --> 00:49:48.634
disappointed if they have to wait months before anything

1123
00:49:48.634 --> 00:49:50.701
happens-- CHARLIE ROSE Right.

1124
00:49:50.701 --> 00:49:53.200
LAURENCE TRIBE --and if everything that happens is so

1125
00:49:53.200 --> 00:49:56.367
invisible and so without result.

1126
00:49:56.367 --> 00:49:59.868
You see, one of the reasons that there is bound to be some

1127
00:49:59.868 --> 00:50:02.868
pressure for some symbolic action, at least, is that the

1128
00:50:02.868 --> 00:50:05.834
war we have declared on terrorism, on all groups that

1129
00:50:05.834 --> 00:50:08.567
have global reach and use terrorism, is a war we can never

1130
00:50:08.567 --> 00:50:11.100
declare we have won.

1131
00:50:11.100 --> 00:50:13.501
I mean, there will never be a-- CHARLIE ROSE Well, we can

1132
00:50:13.501 --> 00:50:15.534
declare-- LAURENCE TRIBE --you

1133
00:50:15.534 --> 00:50:17.567
know, a V.E. Day.

1134
00:50:17.567 --> 00:50:19.601
CHARLIE ROSE --but we can't prove it easily.

1135
00:50:19.601 --> 00:50:21.634
LAURENCE TRIBE Right.

1136
00:50:21.634 --> 00:50:23.634
Well, I mean, it isn't even like, you know, the senator who

1137
00:50:23.634 --> 00:50:25.667
suggested that the way to solve the problem of Vietnam was to

1138
00:50:25.667 --> 00:50:27.434
declare that we had won-- CHARLIE ROSE George-- George

1139
00:50:27.434 --> 00:50:29.234
Aiken said-- LAURENCE TRIBE But there, you see-- CHARLIE

1140
00:50:29.234 --> 00:50:30.868
ROSE --just-- just come home and declare victory.

1141
00:50:30.868 --> 00:50:32.567
LAURENCE TRIBE Right.

1142
00:50:32.567 --> 00:50:34.367
But there nobody could prove it wrong.

1143
00:50:34.367 --> 00:50:36.200
Here someone can.

1144
00:50:36.200 --> 00:50:38.067
The first time-- CHARLIE ROSE Right.

1145
00:50:38.067 --> 00:50:39.968
LAURENCE TRIBE --there's a major act of terror after a

1146
00:50:39.968 --> 00:50:41.667
declaration of victory, it will-- (crosstalk) CHARLIE

1147
00:50:41.667 --> 00:50:43.167
ROSE Donald Rumsfeld suggested the definition of victory may

1148
00:50:43.167 --> 00:50:44.567
very well be that somehow you come to feel safer than you

1149
00:50:44.567 --> 00:50:46.100
otherwise would.

1150
00:50:46.100 --> 00:50:47.767
LAURENCE TRIBE Right.

1151
00:50:47.767 --> 00:50:49.901
It could be that intangible.

1152
00:50:49.901 --> 00:50:51.767
And it's not only intangible but fragile.

1153
00:50:51.767 --> 00:50:54.000
Everybody might feel safe, and then all it takes is one

1154
00:50:54.000 --> 00:50:55.934
episode, even an episode much smaller than this one, and again

1155
00:50:55.934 --> 00:50:57.901
people will worry.

1156
00:50:57.901 --> 00:50:59.868
So there's no-- there's no-- there's no light at the end of

1157
00:50:59.868 --> 00:51:02.067
this tunnel.

1158
00:51:02.067 --> 00:51:05.033
It's going to go on and on, I think.

1159
00:51:05.033 --> 00:51:07.601
CHARLIE ROSE There is one final quote-- one final notion

1160
00:51:07.601 --> 00:51:10.200
is that some say that it's better to call this a war

1161
00:51:10.200 --> 00:51:12.834
because if it's a war, then the normal rules of law enforcement

1162
00:51:12.834 --> 00:51:15.100
are not applicable.

1163
00:51:15.100 --> 00:51:17.767
LAURENCE TRIBE Well, I think that's certainly not true when

1164
00:51:17.767 --> 00:51:20.367
the word ''war'' is used in this kind of loose and

1165
00:51:20.367 --> 00:51:22.934
metaphorical way.

1166
00:51:22.934 --> 00:51:26.234
And it's also not true even when there is a declaration of war,

1167
00:51:26.234 --> 00:51:29.701
that somehow the Constitution is suspended.

1168
00:51:29.701 --> 00:51:33.133
There are a lot of countries in which the constitution has a

1169
00:51:33.133 --> 00:51:36.300
specific provision that when, through a certain process, there

1170
00:51:36.300 --> 00:51:39.033
is a declaration of national emergency or of war, a whole

1171
00:51:39.033 --> 00:51:42.000
list of constitutional provisions become inoperative.

1172
00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:44.734
In the framing of our Constitution, they were really

1173
00:51:44.734 --> 00:51:47.033
very careful not to do that.

1174
00:51:47.033 --> 00:51:49.601
They specified which constitutional provisions turn

1175
00:51:49.601 --> 00:51:52.033
into a pumpkin if there's a war.

1176
00:51:52.033 --> 00:51:54.567
CHARLIE ROSE Right.

1177
00:51:54.567 --> 00:51:56.801
LAURENCE TRIBE The most important one is the 3rd

1178
00:51:56.801 --> 00:51:58.834
Amendment, not-- not one that you hear a lot about, about not

1179
00:51:58.834 --> 00:52:00.834
quartering soldiers in people's homes without their consent.

1180
00:52:00.834 --> 00:52:02.834
That changes in time of war.

1181
00:52:02.834 --> 00:52:04.834
CHARLIE ROSE You can do that?

1182
00:52:04.834 --> 00:52:06.567
LAURENCE TRIBE But in general-- in time of war, you

1183
00:52:06.567 --> 00:52:08.367
can do that-- CHARLIE ROSE Right.

1184
00:52:08.367 --> 00:52:10.400
LAURENCE TRIBE --pursuant to an act of Congress.

1185
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:13.167
But without war, you can't.

1186
00:52:13.167 --> 00:52:16.067
Otherwise, the Constitution applies fully, with the caveat

1187
00:52:16.067 --> 00:52:19.334
that some of its provisions, like the ban on unreasonable

1188
00:52:19.334 --> 00:52:22.467
searches and seizures, are so context-based that if there is a

1189
00:52:22.467 --> 00:52:25.701
declaration of war, or even without a declaration, if there

1190
00:52:25.701 --> 00:52:29.000
is clearly a national crisis with this kind of mobilization,

1191
00:52:29.000 --> 00:52:31.767
that the test of what is reasonable will change by a

1192
00:52:31.767 --> 00:52:34.067
degree that, you know, you can't really measure with precision.

1193
00:52:34.067 --> 00:52:36.000
CHARLIE ROSE LAURENCE TRIBE, professor of constitutional law

1194
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:37.601
at the Harvard Law School.

1195
00:52:37.601 --> 00:52:39.334
Thank you very much.

1196
00:52:39.334 --> 00:52:41.067
LAURENCE TRIBE Thanks, Charlie.

1197
00:52:41.067 --> 00:52:42.801
CHARLIE ROSE Good to see you.

1198
00:52:42.801 --> 
LAURENCE TRIBE Good to see you.