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Welcome to our broadcast.

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Tonight, former Reagan speechwriter PEGGY NOONAN will

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be here, also award-winning director ALAN PAKULA, his latest

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film is The Pelican Brief.

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Botanist Peter Raven will also join me for a look at the

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wonders of the plant world and the threat of the loss of

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thousands of species.

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We begin with PEGGY NOONAN.

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She is much more than a speechwriter.

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Malcolm Forbes, however, said that if there was a Nobel Prize

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for speechwriting, she would be the obvious winner.

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Working for Ronald Reagan, PEGGY NOONAN became known as the poet

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laureate of the resurgent Republicanism, and working for

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George Bush in 1988 she gave the American lingo, ``Read my

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lips,'' a kinder, gentler nation, and a thousand points of

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light.

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Her Washington memoir, What I Saw at the Revolution, was a

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best-seller, and in the February Vanity Fair magazine she

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interviews her former Reagan colleague, the embattled

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political strategist Ed Rollins.

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We're pleased to have PEGGY NOONAN here to talk about this

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piece and some other perspectives on American

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politics and American culture.

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Welcome.

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Hi.

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It's great to have you here.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Thanks very much.

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Let me first talk about the Ed Rollins thing.

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This is a story that has captured the attention of a lot

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of us because it is the first interview with him, and all of

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us who are political junkies, as you are, as I am, and who have

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looked at it either as a journalist or as a speechwriter,

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are fascinated by how such a superb practitioner of the craft

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of political consulting could do what he did.

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My first question is, how did you get the story?

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How did you get close to Ed Rollins so he agreed to tell his

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story to you?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Well, I was talking to a friend of mine at Vanity

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Fair and she was saying, ``We want you to do something for us,

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what about this and that?"

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This was right after the Rollins story broke, and I said,

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``You know, I'd like to talk to Ed Rollins about why he said

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what he said.'' And she said, ``We'll see if he'll talk to

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you.'' And they called him up and he said yes.

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They called him up and he said yes?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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It was that simple.

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I think Ed knew--

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Was it really that simple?

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I mean, everybody that I know was hungering to speak

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to Ed Rollins.

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Now, was this because of a relationship you had, both

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working at the Reagan White House, because he thought you

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would understand?

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Or is there more to it?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

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Well, we both knew each other in the Reagan White House, and we

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worked there together, and I thought a lot of him.

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He was just a terrific guy.

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He knew that I liked him, he knows that I like him.

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He knew that he had to talk to the press eventually.

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At some point you've got to have the first interview, no matter

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who you are and what's happening in your life.

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At some point, Marla Maples has to sit down and talk to someone,

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and then she decides who she thinks she'll be most

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comfortable with, and who might be most sympathetic, so--

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In her case it was Diane Sawyer.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes, that's right.

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So I think that's how Ed was thinking, we've got to do it

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sooner or later, and at least we know we're starting out with a

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baseline of knowledge with Peggy, I think is how he

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(crosstalk).

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For that reason, Vanity Fair magazine rather

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than 60 Minutes or 20/20 or anyone else who

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might have asked him?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

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I think so.

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And what were the questions you wanted answered

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when you went to see him?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, I think two main ones.

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One was ``Ed, why did you say that?"

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Yeah.

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>>MS. NOONAN: The other was, I'm very fascinated by what it is

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like to be in the midst of a really famous scandal, so that

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you are sitting at home, you're trying to-- you've done

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something big, everybody in America is talking about it,

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it's in all the newspapers.

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You sit down and watch TV to escape from the mess you're in

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and you start to channel-surf, and all you see is the Ed

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Rollins story, and all you hear is people saying you're a fool

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or a blowhard or a loudmouth or a fantasist.

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And you can go from show to show, and you're sitting there

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on your couch in your home thinking, ``That's me.''

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And in addition, with Ed Rollins, all of a sudden

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he found himself -- and he's someone that I know and like --

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he found himself having his past actions disparaged.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

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A lot of people stepped forward, clearly not

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friends, to say ``Well, this wasn't the first time, he was like

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that always,'' and ``I remember this and I remember that,'' and-

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

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--so all of a sudden everything you've done you've

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brought into question.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah, that's true.

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I think he probably got reminded that in politics, friends come

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and go, but enemies accumulate.

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Remember that old saying?

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Yes.

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>>MS. NOONAN: I mean, I think-- I don't remember, but I thought of

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it when I was down there seeing him.

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What's the answer to the question why he did it?

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Why did he go to a breakfast, in the week that was the best week

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of his life, having won, having been the campaign manager for an

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insurgency campaign that had overcome a 20-point lead by

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Governor Jim Florio to win the governorship of New Jersey, he

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was the campaign manager, and it was a mano-a-mano campaign with

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James Carville, who is the star political consultant of the

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moment, having gotten President Clinton elected.

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Why did he, during that week of exultation and celebration, go

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to a Sperling (sp?)

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breakfast, a group of political reporters, and say

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what he said?

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>>MS. NOONAN: We will never really know.

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I don't think Ed really totally knows.

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He said-- he said, more or less, ``We spent $500,000 in the--

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half a million in the Whitman campaign essentially paying off

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ministers to hold down the black vote'' and--

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The great word was suppression.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Although Ed says he wasn't the first to use that.

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Someone said it to the side, it was not picked up on the mike,

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but his voice saying suppression in a very positive sense was

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picked up.

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Why did he do it?

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There's a million answers, probably.

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One is, I think, he was spinning.

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I think he was suggesting that he had expertise about a

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political ground war in which he was not really involved.

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Maybe he thought, ``I'll get a little extra credit for it.'' I

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think he was trying to make James Carville crazy, I think he

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wanted Carville to obsess on why he lost the New Jersey race, and

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Ed wanted Carville to obsess on incorrect data.

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I think he--

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He really did?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah, I think so.

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It's that competitive between these people that

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they want the other person not only to suffer the loss, but to

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take it again and again and again, the needle from the victor?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Well, I think it was that competitive in this

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case, and I think it was a competition that Ed felt very

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sharply.

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I don't know about Carville.

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I don't know if Carville felt that way about him.

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So he gets to that breakfast and he's spinning out

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of control?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

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Yeah, yeah.

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His wife said-- you know, there are a number of people who say

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Ed had told this story before the Sperling breakfast, the

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story about suppression, that the Sperling breakfast was the

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third time in three or four days that he had told the story.

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Ed's wife Sherry told me if she had

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not been away for a few days -- she just

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happened to be away -- if she had not been away for a few days

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this never would have happened, because she would have heard him

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tell that story the first time and she would have left the

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dinner party with him, gone home in the car and said, ``Ed, why

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did you say that?

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That's not true.''

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``And don't ever say that again,

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because people will interpret it the wrong way.''

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

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But also, you know, I think he-- you know, we all get on a

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victory high, I think.

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You can get on a victory high when you're feeling really good

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about something that's happened, something you worked very hard

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for.

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You achieve it, you got it, and then you have all this free

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energy that you don't have to put towards attaining your goal

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anymore, 'cause you just got it, and with that energy in the

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victory high, I think you can say some very stupid, careless,

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fictional things, and I think that figures in.

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Does he understand what he has done, how deep the

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self-inflicted wound is?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

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Yeah.

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He does?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Totally.

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Yes.

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All right-- he was clearly depressed about it.

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It is very hard for any person, when you've worked at a job,

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worked in an area of life for a quarter-century, and you keep

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going up, up, up, up, up, and then at the end you blow your

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career apart.

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That hurts.

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I mean, that will leave you concussed for a long time.

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Do you believe he's truthful with himself at this

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date?

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>>MS. NOONAN: I don't know.

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That gets into another-- into an interesting area.

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In a way, there's a subtext to the piece, and it is about spin.

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I know.

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>>MS. NOONAN: You can get so involved in the culture of spin

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in Washington that you become confused about what the truth

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is, about the facts of your own life.

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But let's make that specific.

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Do you believe that he was spinning to you when he talked

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about his own-- the rebirth of his own Catholicism?

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Because he knew that you, the writer, had in your own life

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recently gone through the same spiritual rebirth.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

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So you question his motives.

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You're saying he talked to you about that because he knew that

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it would resonate with you having done the same thing.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

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But Charlie, it's wheels within wheels and circles within

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circles.

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Was he spinning me?

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Yes.

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But I also thought he was telling me the truth.

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When I was with Ed and his wife, Sherry Rollins, I felt for two

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days that I was being spun, so that I would see them as a

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sympathetic couple.

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But the irony underneath that is that they are a sympathetic

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couple.

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And the fact that they're spinning gets in

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the way, you're saying.

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Tell me how that works, though.

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How is it, and what's the spin like that gets in the way of

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seeing them as truly wonderful, interesting, sympathetic,

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engaging people?

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>>MS. NOONAN: Poignant figures, in a way.

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Poignant.

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Right.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

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Particularly Ed.

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How does the spin get in the way of that?

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Does it block your appreciation of who they are as--

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>>MS. NOONAN: Sure.

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Spin-- spin adds distance.

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I said in the piece, never spin your friends, because--

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That's right.

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This is Noonan's rule number one.

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Never spin your friends.

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>>MS. NOONAN: It is indeed it.

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When you live in a spin culture, when all of life is spin, when

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your entire professional life is spin, your personal life starts

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to become spin, and then something's going on with you

251
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and a good friend calls and says, ``What's happening?"

252
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and instead of telling the blunt truth you spin him a

253
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little bit on the phone.

254
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If the person you're talking to, the friend you're talking to is

255
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highly sophisticated, you have just distanced them from you.

256
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Because they don't-- you have lost your

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authenticity with them, in part.

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>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

259
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Is that it?

260
00:10:29.067 --> 00:10:33.334
>>MS. NOONAN: You are making it clear that they are a carrier of

261
00:10:33.334 --> 00:10:36.033
information and you want them to carry the information you want

262
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them to carry.

263
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It's distancing.

264
00:10:38.033 --> 00:10:39.133
Have you ever done that?

265
00:10:39.133 --> 00:10:41.234
>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, God, yes.

266
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Yes.

267
00:10:42.234 --> 00:10:44.634
So you violate your own rule?

268
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>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, absolutely.

269
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I also think, more and more, I think spin is the most

270
00:10:51.367 --> 00:10:54.200
interesting kind of phenomenon.

271
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I said in the piece, because I wasn't thinking completely, I

272
00:10:57.834 --> 00:11:01.667
said, you know, in Washington life is spin, but it occurred to

273
00:11:01.667 --> 00:11:04.701
me afterwards in Hollywood life is spin, in Detroit life is

274
00:11:04.701 --> 00:11:06.501
spin, in New York life is spin.

275
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And it's not only--

276
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The spin is where the image is more

277
00:11:10.567 --> 00:11:11.834
important than the substance.

278
00:11:11.834 --> 00:11:15.901
>>MS. NOONAN: Yes, and it can be not only professional, it can be

279
00:11:15.901 --> 00:11:16.901
personal.

280
00:11:16.901 --> 00:11:19.667
I just get the impression lately because America, because we are

281
00:11:19.667 --> 00:11:23.434
living in such a media age, because America is so infused by

282
00:11:23.434 --> 00:11:27.634
media, that we are all spinning away, that it is--

283
00:11:27.634 --> 00:11:28.868
We're embellishing our story.

284
00:11:28.868 --> 00:11:31.667
>>MS. NOONAN: Embellishment is okay.

285
00:11:31.667 --> 00:11:32.667
There's--

286
00:11:32.667 --> 00:11:33.667
What's not okay?

287
00:11:33.667 --> 00:11:34.667
Where does spin begin?

288
00:11:34.667 --> 00:11:39.033
>>MS. NOONAN: The disingenuous part, the calculating,

289
00:11:39.033 --> 00:11:41.033
this-isn't-the-whole-truth part.

290
00:11:41.033 --> 00:11:43.267
What's the truth?

291
00:11:43.267 --> 00:11:48.734
There was no money, certainly not $500,000, maybe $50,000

292
00:11:48.734 --> 00:11:52.634
spent in terms of giving it to the favorite charities of some

293
00:11:52.634 --> 00:11:55.133
people, or not even $50,000, no money?

294
00:11:55.133 --> 00:11:57.467
>>MS. NOONAN: I don't know.

295
00:11:57.467 --> 00:11:58.767
I wouldn't think much.

296
00:11:58.767 --> 00:12:01.868
The Whitman campaign says they spent about $50,000 in street

297
00:12:01.868 --> 00:12:02.868
money.

298
00:12:02.868 --> 00:12:03.901
I don't know.

299
00:12:03.901 --> 00:12:06.033
We tried to find out how much the Florio campaign spent on it

300
00:12:06.033 --> 00:12:07.234
and weren't successful in that.

301
00:12:07.234 --> 00:12:08.234
Why, because they denied you access to

302
00:12:08.234 --> 00:12:10.601
their practices?

303
00:12:10.601 --> 00:12:13.300
>>MS. NOONAN: No, just because we had a few days to go

304
00:12:13.300 --> 00:12:18.767
before deadline.

305
00:12:18.767 --> 00:12:22.634
A Democratic political operative named Ann Campbell in New Jersey

306
00:12:22.634 --> 00:12:25.400
told us, said, ``You know, nobody takes money like that out

307
00:12:25.400 --> 00:12:29.434
of media, $500,000.''

308
00:12:29.434 --> 00:12:30.834
Because it's badly spent money in 1992.

309
00:12:30.834 --> 00:12:32.067
>>MS. NOONAN: Sure.

310
00:12:32.067 --> 00:12:35.534
It's an air war in a big industrial state campaign.

311
00:12:35.534 --> 00:12:38.234
John Sears said, you know, that was an interesting story I told,

312
00:12:38.234 --> 00:12:42.634
but that's very antique, the idea of using so much street

313
00:12:42.634 --> 00:12:43.634
money on the street.

314
00:12:43.634 --> 00:12:44.634
That's not the way it was.

315
00:12:44.634 --> 00:12:46.934
Street money really depends on a whole network of people,

316
00:12:46.934 --> 00:12:47.934
a whole machine, a whole--

317
00:12:47.934 --> 00:12:49.167
But you would think a sophisticated

318
00:12:49.167 --> 00:12:52.467
group of reporters would pick up on that right away, at the

319
00:12:52.467 --> 00:12:55.100
Sperling breakfast, and say, ``No one does that anymore.

320
00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:57.734
If you did that, that's not even good politics.'' Of course, he

321
00:12:57.734 --> 00:12:59.767
could come back and say, ``Look, we won, didn't we?"

322
00:12:59.767 --> 00:13:04.534
>>MS. NOONAN: Well, in truth, those reporters may-- may have

323
00:13:04.534 --> 00:13:07.868
thought they were hearing something that was so new and

324
00:13:07.868 --> 00:13:11.033
inside that they didn't know it was still happening.

325
00:13:11.033 --> 00:13:13.000
In fact, that's what happened.

326
00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:14.000
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

327
00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:16.267
That day, Ed walks out of this-- your second

328
00:13:16.267 --> 00:13:19.334
rule is you always ought to be nervous, no, your second rule is

329
00:13:19.334 --> 00:13:21.434
something about a psychiatric ward, what is that?

330
00:13:21.434 --> 00:13:23.434
What's the Noonan rule number two?

331
00:13:23.434 --> 00:13:25.434
>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, it's about how when you get in a lot of trouble

332
00:13:25.434 --> 00:13:28.467
in Washington, as Ed did, you will rely on your friends--

333
00:13:28.467 --> 00:13:30.434
That they're fellow inmates?

334
00:13:30.434 --> 00:13:38.434
>>MS. NOONAN: --and you may find some of your friendships are

335
00:13:38.434 --> 00:13:39.434
somewhat fraudulent.

336
00:13:39.434 --> 00:13:40.434
Yeah.

337
00:13:40.434 --> 00:13:42.434
>>MS. NOONAN: And that is because Washington-- any place of great

338
00:13:42.434 --> 00:13:44.467
stakes and great power is a strange place.

339
00:13:44.467 --> 00:13:46.467
What I said was a second rule of life for political operatives in

340
00:13:46.467 --> 00:13:48.467
Washington is never network in a psychiatric ward, because the

341
00:13:48.467 --> 00:13:50.467
people you cultivate may not turn out to be reliable.

342
00:13:50.467 --> 00:13:53.000
And the third rule was that always go to a

343
00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:54.000
meeting nervous.

344
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.000
>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, stay nervous.

345
00:13:55.000 --> 00:13:57.067
You cannot go with your guard down, because

346
00:13:57.067 --> 00:13:59.434
if you go in calm, as he went into this meeting, you may say

347
00:13:59.434 --> 00:14:02.200
something that you don't even realize at the time has the

348
00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:03.200
potency that it does.

349
00:14:03.200 --> 00:14:05.200
Because that afternoon he's getting calls from political

350
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.200
reporters checking up on it, The Washington Post is going with

351
00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.200
this story and The New York Times is going with the story,

352
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.200
and it's front page on both papers, all right?

353
00:14:11.200 --> 00:14:12.200
>>MS. NOONAN: Yep.

354
00:14:12.200 --> 00:14:14.200
Let me finally say, what's his reaction to

355
00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:15.200
this story?

356
00:14:15.200 --> 00:14:16.200
Has he read your piece?

357
00:14:16.200 --> 00:14:17.234
Has he called you?

358
00:14:17.234 --> 00:14:18.234
Has he talked to you?

359
00:14:18.234 --> 00:14:19.234
>>MS. NOONAN: We just-- no.

360
00:14:19.234 --> 00:14:21.234
Do you know what he feels?

361
00:14:21.234 --> 00:14:23.234
>>MS. NOONAN: I don't know what he feels.

362
00:14:23.234 --> 00:14:25.234
We have sent-- Vanity Fair sent it down to him two days ago.

363
00:14:25.234 --> 00:14:27.234
So you've had no communication.

364
00:14:27.234 --> 00:14:29.234
>>MS. NOONAN: No, not yet, and I don't know what he feels.

365
00:14:29.234 --> 00:14:31.234
What do you suspect he feels?

366
00:14:31.234 --> 00:14:33.234
I would suspect he'd be a little bit angry.

367
00:14:33.234 --> 00:14:34.234
>>MS. NOONAN: Do you think so?

368
00:14:34.234 --> 00:14:35.234
Yeah.

369
00:14:35.234 --> 00:14:36.234
What do you think?

370
00:14:36.234 --> 00:14:38.234
I mean, I think, because you're suggesting he's spinning, and

371
00:14:38.234 --> 00:14:40.200
there's some negative things that you are pointing out, not

372
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:41.200
that they're wrong.

373
00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:42.234
What do you think?

374
00:14:42.234 --> 00:14:45.601
>>MS. NOONAN: I think that in a few days-- I thought it was the

375
00:14:45.601 --> 00:14:48.133
kind of piece that you would have to read and then think

376
00:14:48.133 --> 00:14:51.000
about for five days, and at the end of five days you'll think,

377
00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:52.000
``That's good.

378
00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:53.000
That's good.''

379
00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:54.834
``She understood me.''

380
00:14:54.834 --> 00:14:55.834
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

381
00:14:55.834 --> 00:14:56.834
Yeah.

382
00:14:56.834 --> 00:14:58.834
I mean, I think that people in the position

383
00:14:58.834 --> 00:14:59.834
that he's in--

384
00:14:59.834 --> 00:15:00.834
>>MS. NOONAN: I hope that occurs.

385
00:15:00.834 --> 00:15:01.834
Yeah, I know you do.

386
00:15:01.834 --> 00:15:03.834
But the most you can hope for is not whether it was good or bad,

387
00:15:03.834 --> 00:15:05.834
but that ``She really made an effort to understand me and to

388
00:15:05.834 --> 00:15:07.834
get at the truth and ask the fair questions,'' right?

389
00:15:07.834 --> 00:15:08.834
>>MS. NOONAN: Yes.

390
00:15:08.834 --> 00:15:10.834
That's what I would be hopeful about.

391
00:15:10.834 --> 00:15:11.834
All right.

392
00:15:11.834 --> 00:15:12.801
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

393
00:15:12.801 --> 00:15:13.801
We'll see.

394
00:15:13.801 --> 00:15:15.801
A couple of questions about, before we leave this, one is the

395
00:15:15.801 --> 00:15:17.801
role in politics in 1993 and the present time of political

396
00:15:17.801 --> 00:15:18.801
consultants.

397
00:15:18.801 --> 00:15:19.801
They are now the kingmakers.

398
00:15:19.801 --> 00:15:23.033
David Garth here in New York, Rudy Giuliani, Jim Carville,

399
00:15:23.033 --> 00:15:26.934
notwithstanding this defeat, but because of Clinton.

400
00:15:26.934 --> 00:15:29.534
They dominate American politics now?

401
00:15:29.534 --> 00:15:31.667
>>MS. NOONAN: I asked Ed that, and Ed said something I found

402
00:15:31.667 --> 00:15:32.667
fascinating.

403
00:15:32.667 --> 00:15:36.434
He said, ``You know, we are the party bosses now.

404
00:15:36.434 --> 00:15:39.167
Everything has changed in politics, the old organizations

405
00:15:39.167 --> 00:15:42.067
are gone, the old strong city and state organizations.

406
00:15:42.067 --> 00:15:44.701
There are still party bosses, but it's us,'' he said.

407
00:15:44.701 --> 00:15:45.734
``And who controls us?

408
00:15:45.734 --> 00:15:48.334
Who can tell a Jim Carville what he can and cannot do?

409
00:15:48.334 --> 00:15:51.100
Who can tell an Ed Rollins what he can and cannot do?

410
00:15:51.100 --> 00:15:52.100
We are uncontrolled.''

411
00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:53.634
And their power comes from the

412
00:15:53.634 --> 00:15:56.868
fact that they know something that candidates don't know, they

413
00:15:56.868 --> 00:15:59.868
have superior wisdom about politics, or what?

414
00:15:59.868 --> 00:16:02.634
>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, I suppose they hope they have superior wisdom

415
00:16:02.634 --> 00:16:03.634
about politics.

416
00:16:03.634 --> 00:16:08.834
They certainly have an expertise on the details of running a huge

417
00:16:08.834 --> 00:16:12.467
media war which involves strategy and such, so they

418
00:16:12.467 --> 00:16:13.467
understand that.

419
00:16:13.467 --> 00:16:15.467
It's hard-- it's hard to know everything you have to know when

420
00:16:15.467 --> 00:16:16.434
you run now.

421
00:16:16.434 --> 00:16:17.434
It's very complex.

422
00:16:17.434 --> 00:16:19.434
So they've mastered the complexity, political

423
00:16:19.434 --> 00:16:20.601
strategists, supposedly.

424
00:16:20.601 --> 00:16:22.567
Knowing how to use television, how to buy time,

425
00:16:22.567 --> 00:16:24.801
what kind of commercials to make, knowing how to cut down

426
00:16:24.801 --> 00:16:25.801
your opponent (unintelligible)?

427
00:16:25.801 --> 00:16:26.801
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

428
00:16:26.801 --> 00:16:27.801
Yes, of course.

429
00:16:27.801 --> 00:16:28.801
Yeah.

430
00:16:28.801 --> 00:16:34.434
Ed-- Ed seemed to think they had a little too much power.

431
00:16:34.434 --> 00:16:36.934
It's a learning experience for him, clearly.

432
00:16:36.934 --> 00:16:38.934
Has he accepted that learning experience, do you think?

433
00:16:38.934 --> 00:16:40.934
Has he absorbed it, has he come to grips with it?

434
00:16:40.934 --> 00:16:42.934
>>MS. NOONAN: I think he is in the process of absorbing it and

435
00:16:42.934 --> 00:16:44.501
coming to grips with it.

436
00:16:44.501 --> 00:16:48.100
Do you believe he will work in politics again?

437
00:16:48.100 --> 00:16:51.267
>>MS. NOONAN: I think he can if he wants to.

438
00:16:51.267 --> 00:16:52.534
David Doaks told us,

439
00:16:52.534 --> 00:16:56.067
he said, ``Nobody with talent is finished.''

440
00:16:56.067 --> 00:16:58.067
That's a very wise statement.

441
00:16:58.067 --> 00:16:59.067
>>MS. NOONAN: It was, yeah.

442
00:16:59.067 --> 00:17:01.067
And it was also generous, you know.

443
00:17:01.067 --> 00:17:02.067
David has gone up against Ed.

444
00:17:02.067 --> 00:17:06.801
I think that's true, and I think there are any number of guys who

445
00:17:06.801 --> 00:17:10.734
are 52-year-old businessmen who have $50 million in the bank who

446
00:17:10.734 --> 00:17:13.300
are 3 percent in the polls and who want to be the next senator

447
00:17:13.300 --> 00:17:16.834
from Kentucky who will call up Ed and say, ``Work for me,'' and

448
00:17:16.834 --> 00:17:18.834
Ed will do fine, make a comeback.

449
00:17:18.834 --> 00:17:20.133
If he wants to do it.

450
00:17:20.133 --> 00:17:21.234
I'm not sure he does.

451
00:17:21.234 --> 00:17:22.234
They'll call him up and the

452
00:17:22.234 --> 00:17:23.300
conversation will go like this, you know

453
00:17:23.300 --> 00:17:26.234
``I want to be the governor of Kentucky and you

454
00:17:26.234 --> 00:17:28.200
can help make me the governor of Kentucky.

455
00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.200
What's it going to cost to get you here?

456
00:17:30.200 --> 00:17:32.267
I know your reputation, but I also believe in you.

457
00:17:32.267 --> 00:17:35.167
Start your new career with me, give me the best you've got, and

458
00:17:35.167 --> 00:17:37.868
it'll make you and me very happy.'' Let me move to the

459
00:17:37.868 --> 00:17:39.868
Clinton administration and Bill Clinton.

460
00:17:39.868 --> 00:17:40.868
What do you think of it?

461
00:17:40.868 --> 00:17:44.000
He's of our generation, a man of our generation has reached the

462
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:45.000
presidency.

463
00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:46.000
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

464
00:17:46.000 --> 00:17:48.000
The same thing that people who are now in their

465
00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.167
60s felt about John Kennedy, or in their 70s.

466
00:17:50.167 --> 00:17:52.367
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah.

467
00:17:52.367 --> 00:17:54.367
I have some very mixed feelings.

468
00:17:54.367 --> 00:17:58.467
There is something that feels so inauthentic (sic) about this

469
00:17:58.467 --> 00:18:00.000
presidency to me.

470
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.434
It doesn't feel like-- it doesn't feel like, oh the first

471
00:18:03.434 --> 00:18:05.834
boomer presidency, this is the beginning of the reign of the

472
00:18:05.834 --> 00:18:06.834
boomers.

473
00:18:06.834 --> 00:18:11.267
This seems like somehow manufactured history to me, it

474
00:18:11.267 --> 00:18:13.267
seems-- it seems-- I wrote something about it the other --

475
00:18:13.267 --> 00:18:21.801
it seems like to me like a book from history's digested

476
00:18:21.801 --> 00:18:22.801
system.

477
00:18:22.801 --> 00:18:24.801
It seems like a passing thing.

478
00:18:24.801 --> 00:18:26.801
You don't think he'll be reelected.

479
00:18:26.801 --> 00:18:28.801
You don't think he'll be reelected.

480
00:18:28.801 --> 00:18:34.067
>>MS. NOONAN: I think Mr. Clinton-- the American

481
00:18:34.067 --> 00:18:36.200
people are in a hiring and firing mood.

482
00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.367
They wanted to fire Mr. Bush.

483
00:18:38.367 --> 00:18:41.033
They couldn't hire Mr. Perot because they thought he was a

484
00:18:41.033 --> 00:18:43.000
screwball by the end of the campaign.

485
00:18:43.000 --> 00:18:44.033
Right.

486
00:18:44.033 --> 00:18:46.033
>>MS. NOONAN: The next viable candidate was Mr. Clinton.

487
00:18:46.033 --> 00:18:48.033
They elected him with 43 percent of the vote and watched him for

488
00:18:48.033 --> 00:18:50.501
about six months, and that was just about how long I think they

489
00:18:50.501 --> 00:18:53.934
were going to give him to do some of the right things.

490
00:18:53.934 --> 00:18:55.934
He did a whole bunch of the wrong things and I think

491
00:18:55.934 --> 00:18:58.334
everybody's kind of flaying it out and sleepwalking through it

492
00:18:58.334 --> 00:18:59.334
now.

493
00:18:59.334 --> 00:19:01.767
Help me understand where you think-- you get a lot

494
00:19:01.767 --> 00:19:03.767
of disagreement on that, because the polls are rising, you now,

495
00:19:03.767 --> 00:19:05.934
notwithstanding even the (unintelligible), but those

496
00:19:05.934 --> 00:19:08.200
polls change, as anybody who worked with George Bush found

497
00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:09.234
out very quickly.

498
00:19:09.234 --> 00:19:12.434
Tell me why you think he's inauthentic.

499
00:19:12.434 --> 00:19:15.067
What is it that makes you believe-- you've seen a lot of

500
00:19:15.067 --> 00:19:16.067
them.

501
00:19:16.067 --> 00:19:18.100
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah, this whole experience--

502
00:19:18.100 --> 00:19:20.100
If anything was, he was certainly authentic.

503
00:19:20.100 --> 00:19:21.100
>>MS. NOONAN: Absolutely.

504
00:19:21.100 --> 00:19:23.667
This whole Clinton White House just feels somehow

505
00:19:23.667 --> 00:19:27.133
insubstantial, acted out, inauthentic.

506
00:19:27.133 --> 00:19:29.133
Insubstantial, meaning what?

507
00:19:29.133 --> 00:19:32.567
Not the appropriate credentials to be on the case?

508
00:19:32.567 --> 00:19:33.567
>>MS. NOONAN: No.

509
00:19:33.567 --> 00:19:39.601
There is a kind of a seriousness that is lacking and a kind of

510
00:19:39.601 --> 00:19:44.334
expertise, and a kind of-- Nixon once, Richard Nixon once said a

511
00:19:44.334 --> 00:19:45.334
wonderful thing.

512
00:19:45.334 --> 00:19:49.033
He said, ``Only two kinds of people run for office in the

513
00:19:49.033 --> 00:19:50.234
United States.

514
00:19:50.234 --> 00:19:54.400
There are those who want to do good things, and those who

515
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.334
merely want to be big.'' I look at Clinton and I think I see

516
00:19:58.334 --> 00:20:01.167
someone who simply wants to be big, to be loved, to be admired,

517
00:20:01.167 --> 00:20:02.167
to be adored.

518
00:20:02.167 --> 00:20:03.167
Let me make a different argument,

519
00:20:03.167 --> 00:20:05.667
because I know a lot

520
00:20:05.667 --> 00:20:07.868
of people, and many of them are Democrats, who would say that

521
00:20:07.868 --> 00:20:09.868
was the very thing about George Bush.

522
00:20:09.868 --> 00:20:12.133
He wanted, it was the next step for his resume, he wanted to be

523
00:20:12.133 --> 00:20:16.234
president maybe to win the cold war, but he wanted to be

524
00:20:16.234 --> 00:20:20.200
president mainly because it was something he'd been groomed to

525
00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:23.501
do, and a resume that led him inexorably to that point.

526
00:20:23.501 --> 00:20:25.968
And they'll say about Bill Clinton that he clearly is

527
00:20:25.968 --> 00:20:28.033
someone who wants to do big things.

528
00:20:28.033 --> 00:20:30.367
He wants to change health care in America.

529
00:20:30.367 --> 00:20:34.234
He wants to change a whole number of things and perceptions

530
00:20:34.234 --> 00:20:37.567
and policies, and that his administration has had more

531
00:20:37.567 --> 00:20:40.701
initiatives, clearly, than the Bush administration had.

532
00:20:40.701 --> 00:20:41.734
>>MS. NOONAN: Well.

533
00:20:41.734 --> 00:20:42.734
Okay.

534
00:20:42.734 --> 00:20:43.734
Well, you can-- well--

535
00:20:43.734 --> 00:20:44.801
>>MS. NOONAN: Nah.

536
00:20:44.801 --> 00:20:46.200
Well, why not?

537
00:20:46.200 --> 00:20:47.200
Why not now?

538
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:51.400
>>MS. NOONAN: Look, there is always a personal dynamic in the

539
00:20:51.400 --> 00:20:52.934
rise of anyone in politics.

540
00:20:52.934 --> 00:20:57.033
It is very interesting that Abe Lincoln in 1858, who'd only had

541
00:20:57.033 --> 00:20:59.968
two terms in Congress, who'd never been-- never won any of

542
00:20:59.968 --> 00:21:01.968
the Senate races he'd been involved in.

543
00:21:01.968 --> 00:21:04.868
Because he ran against Steven Douglas.

544
00:21:04.868 --> 00:21:07.767
>>MS. NOONAN: You know, he would just sit back there and whittle

545
00:21:07.767 --> 00:21:09.767
in 1858 and think, ``Well, I'll be the next president in two

546
00:21:09.767 --> 00:21:10.767
years.'' And he was right.

547
00:21:10.767 --> 00:21:11.767
He was.

548
00:21:11.767 --> 00:21:13.767
You have to have a big ego, you have to have a lot of personal

549
00:21:13.767 --> 00:21:16.334
desires to want to be in that place, to become president.

550
00:21:16.334 --> 00:21:20.767
However, Lincoln, of course, was a deeply serious man engaged in

551
00:21:20.767 --> 00:21:22.100
deeply serious things.

552
00:21:22.100 --> 00:21:25.300
Your criticism of Bush has been made, of course, in the past.

553
00:21:25.300 --> 00:21:27.834
It is interesting that no one has ever made that about Reagan.

554
00:21:27.834 --> 00:21:28.868
Reagan wanted to do--

555
00:21:28.868 --> 00:21:29.868
Of course not, because Reagan

556
00:21:29.868 --> 00:21:30.868
came to do three things.

557
00:21:30.868 --> 00:21:31.868
>>MS. NOONAN: Big things.

558
00:21:31.868 --> 00:21:34.334
He wanted to balance the budget, he wanted to

559
00:21:34.334 --> 00:21:36.334
rearm America, and there was a third thing that I forget now.

560
00:21:36.334 --> 00:21:37.334
He wanted to lower taxes.

561
00:21:37.334 --> 00:21:38.567
He wanted to lower taxes.

562
00:21:38.567 --> 00:21:42.334
>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, well, he wanted to reignite the economy, bring

563
00:21:42.334 --> 00:21:46.100
back confidence and defeat communism.

564
00:21:46.100 --> 00:21:48.601
And clearly, when you have limited-- when you have

565
00:21:48.601 --> 00:21:53.267
small but very defined goals that everybody knows you believe

566
00:21:53.267 --> 00:21:55.767
in and that they are your lodestar, then there is

567
00:21:55.767 --> 00:21:59.000
authenticity, and also for a speechwriter it makes it a lot

568
00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:01.567
easier because you know you have someone who believes in very

569
00:22:01.567 --> 00:22:02.567
basic principles, right?

570
00:22:02.567 --> 00:22:04.901
>>MS. NOONAN: Oh, very clear- someone who is driven by clear

571
00:22:04.901 --> 00:22:06.901
and basic philosophical principles.

572
00:22:06.901 --> 00:22:08.901
I'm sure Bill Clinton's speechwriters are pulling their

573
00:22:08.901 --> 00:22:10.901
hair out all the time because they have no idea what he thinks

574
00:22:10.901 --> 00:22:12.868
about any given issue (unintelligible).

575
00:22:12.868 --> 00:22:14.868
Now, you think he's a liberal, don't you?

576
00:22:14.868 --> 00:22:16.868
And you, being a right-wing Republican--

577
00:22:16.868 --> 00:22:17.868
>>MS. NOONAN: He is of the left.

578
00:22:17.868 --> 00:22:20.167
His wife is an ideologue, I believe.

579
00:22:20.167 --> 00:22:21.501
I'm not sure Clinton is.

580
00:22:21.501 --> 00:22:23.133
Clinton is a fuzzier guy.

581
00:22:23.133 --> 00:22:25.133
Some think she may be more centrist than he is.

582
00:22:25.133 --> 00:22:26.100
Some think.

583
00:22:26.100 --> 00:22:28.100
>>MS. NOONAN: Yeah, I would think not.

584
00:22:28.100 --> 00:22:29.100
I know.

585
00:22:29.100 --> 00:22:30.100
But let me make the last point.

586
00:22:30.100 --> 00:22:32.100
It is that Republicans are really upset with this guy

587
00:22:32.100 --> 00:22:35.767
because the people who don't have a philosophy in America in

588
00:22:35.767 --> 00:22:37.400
1993 are Republicans.

589
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:39.467
Tomorrow night I've got Vin Weber on, who's going to tell me

590
00:22:39.467 --> 00:22:44.133
what Republicans stand for in 1993, but Republicans don't--

591
00:22:44.133 --> 00:22:48.267
Bill Clinton's come here and he has stolen the notion of change,

592
00:22:48.267 --> 00:22:52.067
number one, and two, by positions on welfare reform and

593
00:22:52.067 --> 00:22:55.601
crime and those issues that are traditional Republican issues,

594
00:22:55.601 --> 00:23:00.267
he has taken those issues as a centrist Democrat and stolen

595
00:23:00.267 --> 00:23:03.100
them from Republicans, and so therefore they are rudderless,

596
00:23:03.100 --> 00:23:04.534
rather than the President.

597
00:23:04.534 --> 00:23:05.734
>>MS. NOONAN: No.

598
00:23:05.734 --> 00:23:06.734
I disagree with you.

599
00:23:06.734 --> 00:23:08.734
We will debate this another time.

600
00:23:08.734 --> 00:23:09.734
>>MS. NOONAN: Okay.

601
00:23:09.734 --> 00:23:11.767
Great to have you, PEGGY NOONAN.

602
00:23:11.767 --> 00:23:13.767
>>MS. NOONAN: Thanks, Charlie, a lot.

603
00:23:13.767 --> 00:23:15.767
Pleasure to see you, really is.

604
00:23:15.767 --> 00:23:17.767
One of the terrific writers in America today.

605
00:23:17.767 --> 00:23:19.767
She writes about culture from her base in New York.

606
00:23:19.767 --> 00:23:21.767
She's got a new book coming out, Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of

607
00:23:21.767 --> 00:23:24.701
Happiness and an article in Vanity Fair about Ed Rollins.

608
00:23:24.701 --> 00:23:27.067
It's brilliantly written and it's an interesting first

609
00:23:27.067 --> 00:23:28.234
interview with Ed Rollins.

610
00:23:28.234 --> 00:23:29.267
We'll be right back.

611
00:23:29.267 --> 00:23:32.133
ALAN PAKULA is here, and Peter Raven, so stay with us.

612
00:23:47.300 --> 00:23:49.567
Through the lens of director ALAN PAKULA, the

613
00:23:49.567 --> 00:23:51.701
world is not a safe or a stable place.

614
00:23:51.701 --> 00:23:54.267
His films, from Klute and All the President's Men and The

615
00:23:54.267 --> 00:23:57.701
Parallax View to Presumed Innocent, cover the territory of

616
00:23:57.701 --> 00:24:01.300
uncertainty and fear from intimate relations to national

617
00:24:01.300 --> 00:24:02.300
security.

618
00:24:02.300 --> 00:24:05.334
His latest, The Pelican Brief, continues that exploration.

619
00:24:05.334 --> 00:24:07.567
Adapted from John Grisham's best-selling novel about the

620
00:24:07.567 --> 00:24:11.000
assassination of two Supreme Court justices, it stars Julia

621
00:24:11.000 --> 00:24:13.901
Roberts and Denzel Washington, and I'm pleased to have my

622
00:24:13.901 --> 00:24:17.701
friend ALAN PAKULA back here to this table to talk about his

623
00:24:17.701 --> 00:24:20.501
directing and particularly this film, The Pelican Brief.

624
00:24:20.501 --> 00:24:21.501
Welcome.

625
00:24:21.501 --> 00:24:22.501
Great to have you.

626
00:24:22.501 --> 00:24:24.501
Thank you.

627
00:24:24.501 --> 00:24:25.501
It's good to be back.

628
00:24:25.501 --> 00:24:27.701
Why, first, did you-- you bought the rights

629
00:24:27.701 --> 00:24:28.701
to this before the book?

630
00:24:28.701 --> 00:24:31.267
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, I had read The Firm--

631
00:24:31.267 --> 00:24:33.267
Before the book had even been in manuscript form.

632
00:24:33.267 --> 00:24:34.267
>>MR. PAKULA: --yeah.

633
00:24:34.267 --> 00:24:36.234
The book was-- there was a kind of treatment outline that had

634
00:24:36.234 --> 00:24:37.234
been at the publisher's.

635
00:24:37.234 --> 00:24:38.234
Right.

636
00:24:38.234 --> 00:24:40.234
>>MR. PAKULA: And I think, through this underground network

637
00:24:40.234 --> 00:24:43.167
that exists between film and publishing, it got around, and I

638
00:24:43.167 --> 00:24:44.167
saw a copy of it.

639
00:24:44.167 --> 00:24:48.367
And I flew down to Memphis, I called John Grisham, and I said,

640
00:24:48.367 --> 00:24:50.367
``I'd like to meet you,'' and flew down to Memphis, and said I

641
00:24:50.367 --> 00:24:54.501
was interested, and one of the great things about doing this

642
00:24:54.501 --> 00:24:56.534
job, you meet wonderful people, you fly to different places, and

643
00:24:56.534 --> 00:24:57.534
have great adventures.

644
00:24:57.534 --> 00:25:01.534
And I said, ``When you finish it, I think I really would like

645
00:25:01.534 --> 00:25:02.534
to make a film based on it.''

646
00:25:02.534 --> 00:25:03.534
Yeah.

647
00:25:03.534 --> 00:25:07.033
>>MR. PAKULA: And he finished it and I bought the rights, and--

648
00:25:07.033 --> 00:25:09.200
Did you buy the rights before he finished it or--

649
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:10.200
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, no.

650
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:12.200
--was there a bidding contest for this?

651
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:13.200
>>MR. PAKULA: No.

652
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.200
He finished it-- I got first dibs on this, actually.

653
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:17.200
Like a first refusal or something?

654
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:19.601
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, I didn't get it legally, but he did in a

655
00:25:19.601 --> 00:25:20.601
handshake situation.

656
00:25:20.601 --> 00:25:24.400
I said if I can move fast, and I moved fast, and at that point

657
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:27.501
I'm with a company that then had some financial troubles, and

658
00:25:27.501 --> 00:25:30.868
then I went over to Warner's and then they picked it up.

659
00:25:30.868 --> 00:25:35.467
And it all makes filmmaking sound very easy, but it's not.

660
00:25:35.467 --> 00:25:36.467
I know.

661
00:25:36.467 --> 00:25:38.467
Well, what's this underground network?

662
00:25:38.467 --> 00:25:39.467
Explain to me quickly there.

663
00:25:39.467 --> 00:25:40.467
>>MR. PAKULA: By underground network--

664
00:25:40.467 --> 00:25:41.467
I mean, you see--

665
00:25:41.467 --> 00:25:45.000
everybody understands that many movie people see books,

666
00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:47.901
novels, stories that have an opportunity-- that look like

667
00:25:47.901 --> 00:25:49.434
they'd be film material.

668
00:25:49.434 --> 00:25:51.434
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, you know, you're getting to modern

669
00:25:51.434 --> 00:25:53.434
technology, and ever since copying systems, and when things

670
00:25:53.434 --> 00:25:55.634
come into publishers and things come into literary agents--

671
00:25:55.634 --> 00:25:57.734
They're thinking about other alternatives.

672
00:25:57.734 --> 00:26:00.167
>>MR. PAKULA: --well, whatever-- whoever-- whatever the

673
00:26:00.167 --> 00:26:03.601
underground networks are, things seem to get around and things

674
00:26:03.601 --> 00:26:04.634
seem to leak.

675
00:26:04.634 --> 00:26:07.634
What one secretary or one messenger happens to do, I have

676
00:26:07.634 --> 00:26:09.634
no idea, and I think there is a network.

677
00:26:09.634 --> 00:26:12.801
I-- people who work for me know about this.

678
00:26:12.801 --> 00:26:14.767
I pretend I know nothing about this.

679
00:26:14.767 --> 00:26:15.767
Yeah, right, right.

680
00:26:15.767 --> 00:26:17.834
>>MR. PAKULA: I am a puzzled innocent.

681
00:26:17.834 --> 00:26:19.834
Was it the same thing for Sophie's Choice?

682
00:26:19.834 --> 00:26:20.834
>>MR. PAKULA: No.

683
00:26:20.834 --> 00:26:22.834
Sophie's Choice I actually saw in Publishers Weekly, that

684
00:26:22.834 --> 00:26:25.334
Styron had a new book out, and I was a big fan of it and I called

685
00:26:25.334 --> 00:26:27.334
the publisher and he got a manuscript to me (crosstalk).

686
00:26:27.334 --> 00:26:29.334
So you had a manuscript then.

687
00:26:29.334 --> 00:26:31.367
>>MR. PAKULA: So I had a manuscript then.

688
00:26:31.367 --> 00:26:33.367
So it was far-- it was much farther along at that point.

689
00:26:33.367 --> 00:26:34.367
Presumed Innocent?

690
00:26:34.367 --> 00:26:36.367
>>MR. PAKULA: Presumed Innocent was owned by Sidney Pollack and

691
00:26:36.367 --> 00:26:38.367
Mark ROSEnberg, and they came to me with it.

692
00:26:38.367 --> 00:26:39.367
So it had been around.

693
00:26:39.367 --> 00:26:41.367
They had bought it when it had come up for sale.

694
00:26:41.367 --> 00:26:43.367
I had been doing another film and hadn't had a chance to read

695
00:26:43.367 --> 00:26:44.367
it.

696
00:26:44.367 --> 00:26:46.367
And so that came up, really, through another producer.

697
00:26:46.367 --> 00:26:48.367
The Pelican Brief I produced myself.

698
00:26:48.367 --> 00:26:49.367
Okay.

699
00:26:49.367 --> 00:26:51.367
What is it about Pakula and adapting works from another

700
00:26:51.367 --> 00:26:53.501
medium to film, especially novels?

701
00:26:53.501 --> 00:26:54.501
>>MR. PAKULA: Well--

702
00:26:54.501 --> 00:26:55.501
Al the President's Men.

703
00:26:55.501 --> 00:26:58.133
>>MR. PAKULA: --well, All the President's Men, which is not a

704
00:26:58.133 --> 00:26:59.133
novel.

705
00:26:59.133 --> 00:27:01.133
All the President's Men had legally been reality.

706
00:27:01.133 --> 00:27:03.300
Well, you do get a lot of texture if somebody has written

707
00:27:03.300 --> 00:27:04.334
a novel.

708
00:27:04.334 --> 00:27:07.367
You do get a lot of things that sometimes you don't get in a

709
00:27:07.367 --> 00:27:08.367
screenplay.

710
00:27:08.367 --> 00:27:11.234
I'm right at the moment actually writing a novel myself which I

711
00:27:11.234 --> 00:27:12.734
may turn into a screenplay.

712
00:27:12.734 --> 00:27:14.801
And I thought, well, maybe I should do it as a screenplay

713
00:27:14.801 --> 00:27:17.501
first, and then I thought, no, there are whole worlds I want to

714
00:27:17.501 --> 00:27:20.734
explore, and if I can't get them into film, so be it, but at

715
00:27:20.734 --> 00:27:24.734
least let me have the pleasure of examining worlds that

716
00:27:24.734 --> 00:27:27.000
interest me and that I've had some experience with.

717
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:33.267
And so you get all of that, the texture and the whole

718
00:27:33.267 --> 00:27:36.534
expansiveness of an exploration you very often don't get in a

719
00:27:36.534 --> 00:27:37.534
screenplay.

720
00:27:37.534 --> 00:27:40.634
Then you have the problem, of course, of just absorbing that,

721
00:27:40.634 --> 00:27:44.234
burying it, in a sense, and in some ways--

722
00:27:44.234 --> 00:27:46.234
Creating composite characters and all that --

723
00:27:46.234 --> 00:27:48.334
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, yes, and having it-- having-- driving the

724
00:27:48.334 --> 00:27:49.334
action.

725
00:27:49.334 --> 00:27:51.334
Except at some place, if you do it properly, that texture

726
00:27:51.334 --> 00:27:55.667
informs the film and gives it a substance and an underlayer that

727
00:27:55.667 --> 00:27:58.734
makes the film more alive and, for me, more interesting.

728
00:27:58.734 --> 00:28:01.868
I mean, I've done a film like The Pelican Brief, which is a

729
00:28:01.868 --> 00:28:04.767
a suspense picture, which is a thriller.

730
00:28:04.767 --> 00:28:05.767
Which is doing very well at the box office,

731
00:28:05.767 --> 00:28:07.000
thank you very much.

732
00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:09.601
>>MR. PAKULA: --which is doing very well at the box office,

733
00:28:09.601 --> 00:28:13.033
thank you-- yeah, thank you, everybody, very much.

734
00:28:13.033 --> 00:28:16.100
And there is also a chance to make some little political

735
00:28:16.100 --> 00:28:17.100
points.

736
00:28:17.100 --> 00:28:19.100
I mean, when you do suspense pictures you can enter different

737
00:28:19.100 --> 00:28:20.100
worlds.

738
00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:22.100
I mean, there's a whole area in the White House.

739
00:28:22.100 --> 00:28:26.067
Well, to do that, in which you have a relationship between a

740
00:28:26.067 --> 00:28:32.000
chief of staff who's a very young chief of staff and a weak

741
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:36.267
president, and to get a sense of that, I started reading books by

742
00:28:36.267 --> 00:28:37.267
chiefs of staff.

743
00:28:37.267 --> 00:28:40.267
I read Donald Regan's book, and I read Haldeman's book, a whole

744
00:28:40.267 --> 00:28:43.834
bunch of them, and I would say there are maybe two or three

745
00:28:43.834 --> 00:28:47.367
things I got out of those books that leaked into the film.

746
00:28:47.367 --> 00:28:48.367
Like?

747
00:28:48.367 --> 00:28:53.767
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, there is a-- the president has a dog, an old

748
00:28:53.767 --> 00:29:00.200
dog, that he's trying to teach new tricks to, and that did come

749
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:03.033
out of one of those books.

750
00:29:03.033 --> 00:29:04.033
Okay.

751
00:29:04.033 --> 00:29:05.033
What else?

752
00:29:05.033 --> 00:29:07.601
>>MR. PAKULA: You know, it's really hard for me to pinpoint

753
00:29:07.601 --> 00:29:08.601
the actual details.

754
00:29:08.601 --> 00:29:10.634
But you get a feeling that you are then able to

755
00:29:10.634 --> 00:29:11.634
translate to film.

756
00:29:11.634 --> 00:29:12.634
>>MR. PAKULA: I get a feeling.

757
00:29:12.634 --> 00:29:16.133
And then when you're making a film, you stop, you forget where

758
00:29:16.133 --> 00:29:20.934
ideas came from and whose ideas were-- whose idea is it.

759
00:29:20.934 --> 00:29:22.934
I mean, a perfect example of that for me was in All the

760
00:29:22.934 --> 00:29:26.100
President's Men, and I was talking with Jason Robards, and

761
00:29:26.100 --> 00:29:28.133
he said, ``You know, my favorite moment, Alan, is when I go

762
00:29:28.133 --> 00:29:32.000
down-- walk down, I've met with Woodward and Bernstein and it's

763
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:34.701
a triumphant moment for us, and I'm in a black tie and I walk

764
00:29:34.701 --> 00:29:37.234
out of that empty newsroom and I adjust this on my back, and I

765
00:29:37.234 --> 00:29:40.400
just do that on the desk with my hand.'' And he said, ``And I've

766
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:43.434
got the world by what I should have the world by.'' And he

767
00:29:43.434 --> 00:29:46.734
said, ``And it was your idea.'' And I said, ``No, it wasn't my

768
00:29:46.734 --> 00:29:48.734
idea, it was your idea.'' And he said, ``No, I know it was your

769
00:29:48.734 --> 00:29:52.133
idea.'' And I said, ``Well, I remember getting a chill down my

770
00:29:52.133 --> 00:29:56.901
back when you did it, and I wouldn't have gotten a chill if

771
00:29:56.901 --> 00:29:59.334
I had expected it.'' So who knows?

772
00:29:59.334 --> 00:30:02.300
And that-- but that-- the-- what you try to do is absorb

773
00:30:02.300 --> 00:30:06.667
everything you can about these worlds, I mean, and then what

774
00:30:06.667 --> 00:30:09.667
trickles into the film is there for you, then you don't

775
00:30:09.667 --> 00:30:10.834
(unintelligible) consciously.

776
00:30:10.834 --> 00:30:13.200
I mean, I had Julia go to a class on constitutional law at

777
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:15.834
Tulane University Law School.

778
00:30:15.834 --> 00:30:17.834
In her preparation for the film she went to a

779
00:30:17.834 --> 00:30:18.868
constitutional law class.

780
00:30:18.868 --> 00:30:21.701
>>MR. PAKULA: Yes, and I went there, too.

781
00:30:21.701 --> 00:30:25.334
And there was an extraordinary professor of constitutional law

782
00:30:25.334 --> 00:30:27.334
named Chris Warhead, and indeed, there is a class in the film in

783
00:30:27.334 --> 00:30:30.234
which Sam Shepard is a professor of constitutional law and she's

784
00:30:30.234 --> 00:30:38.601
a student, and I based it totally on a class that I was in

785
00:30:38.601 --> 00:30:39.601
that he taught.

786
00:30:39.601 --> 00:30:41.601
It was a sodomy case in Georgia, and finally had him really just

787
00:30:41.601 --> 00:30:43.601
go over the scene, and seeing his own language, what he would

788
00:30:43.601 --> 00:30:44.601
say.

789
00:30:44.601 --> 00:30:46.601
Well, out of that I got-- you believed it.

790
00:30:46.601 --> 00:30:49.200
Sam Shepard was a very good professor of constitutional law,

791
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:51.634
and you believed that she was a very good student of

792
00:30:51.634 --> 00:30:52.634
constitutional law.

793
00:30:52.634 --> 00:30:54.767
That was essential for the film.

794
00:30:54.767 --> 00:30:57.634
When I do suspense pictures, one of the most important things is

795
00:30:57.634 --> 00:31:00.334
to establish a reality of the characters.

796
00:31:00.334 --> 00:31:02.834
We live in a world where everybody-- it's almost

797
00:31:02.834 --> 00:31:04.434
impossible to shock anybody.

798
00:31:04.434 --> 00:31:08.434
We've seen such horrifying things in reality, in the news

799
00:31:08.434 --> 00:31:13.167
every night, no less in Nightmare on Elm Street 101, and

800
00:31:13.167 --> 00:31:16.100
all of these pictures that are out to shock you that the one

801
00:31:16.100 --> 00:31:19.033
thing that I can do is to get the audience involved with the

802
00:31:19.033 --> 00:31:22.834
characters, to believe in those characters, hopefully care about

803
00:31:22.834 --> 00:31:25.400
those characters, or the character in trouble.

804
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:28.767
And then, when things happen to that character, they have the

805
00:31:28.767 --> 00:31:31.601
excitement of living through it through that character, and not

806
00:31:31.601 --> 00:31:34.400
just getting shock effects slammed at them.

807
00:31:34.400 --> 00:31:36.400
Let me do a couple of things.

808
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:38.400
One, did you-- were you responsible in All the

809
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.901
President's Men for choosing Robards, Redford and Dustin--

810
00:31:40.901 --> 00:31:41.934
>>MR. PAKULA: No.

811
00:31:41.934 --> 00:31:42.934
Redford--

812
00:31:42.934 --> 00:31:44.400
Because Redford produced the film.

813
00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:47.901
The film would never have been done without Bob Redford.

814
00:31:47.901 --> 00:31:49.667
Redford was a superb producer.

815
00:31:49.667 --> 00:31:55.834
When I came into it, when he offered me the film, Redford and

816
00:31:55.834 --> 00:31:57.300
Hoffman were given.

817
00:31:57.300 --> 00:31:58.968
Jason was not part of it.

818
00:31:58.968 --> 00:32:01.634
And as a matter of fact, when I met with Redford, I said, ``You

819
00:32:01.634 --> 00:32:03.968
know, I'm very interested in doing this and I'd love to,

820
00:32:03.968 --> 00:32:06.100
Washington's a fascinating story, I'm fascinated by the

821
00:32:06.100 --> 00:32:10.167
press,'' I said, ``but you know, I have a problem with the

822
00:32:10.167 --> 00:32:13.868
casting of you and Dustin Hoffman.'' And he said, ``Why?'

823
00:32:13.868 --> 00:32:16.367
' I said, ``Well, the great thing about this story, it's

824
00:32:16.367 --> 00:32:20.200
about how two unknown journalists -- they weren't

825
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.834
famous journalists, they had no experience in national politics

826
00:32:23.834 --> 00:32:27.434
-- how they wound up finding the biggest story in the history of

827
00:32:27.434 --> 00:32:30.434
American journalism, and that resulted in the bringing down of

828
00:32:30.434 --> 00:32:32.434
the president of the United States.

829
00:32:32.434 --> 00:32:35.467
I said, ``You guys are more famous than Nixon, and where do

830
00:32:35.467 --> 00:32:39.534
you get--'' well, so the problem became making sure that you--

831
00:32:39.534 --> 00:32:43.601
that the audience believed that they were these young reporters.

832
00:32:43.601 --> 00:32:46.667
And to make that work, to make sure that they didn't seem just

833
00:32:46.667 --> 00:32:48.801
like the stars, you needed somebody with star quality

834
00:32:48.801 --> 00:32:52.467
playing Ben Bradlee, who had to be the star, the John Wayne

835
00:32:52.467 --> 00:32:54.467
cowboy with the young cowboys in the film.

836
00:32:54.467 --> 00:32:57.300
And the first person everybody said was Jason Robards.

837
00:32:57.300 --> 00:33:02.200
He kind of looks like Ben, he sounds like Ben a bit, and he's

838
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:04.200
a wonderful actor, and I've always wanted to work with

839
00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:05.200
Jason.

840
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:07.200
But I said to Jason, I met with him, I said, ``I have one

841
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:08.200
concern, Jason.

842
00:33:08.200 --> 00:33:13.834
You look like Ben, you talk like Ben,'' I said, ``but your great

843
00:33:13.834 --> 00:33:18.033
successes have always been the characters who cannot deal with

844
00:33:18.033 --> 00:33:21.601
reality.'' In Iceman Cometh, who go to a bar and have to drink

845
00:33:21.601 --> 00:33:23.968
themselves to death because the world is impossible for them to

846
00:33:23.968 --> 00:33:24.968
deal with.

847
00:33:24.968 --> 00:33:25.968
Yeah.

848
00:33:25.968 --> 00:33:27.968
>>MR. PAKULA: I said, One Thousand Clowns in a more comic

849
00:33:27.968 --> 00:33:28.968
way.

850
00:33:28.968 --> 00:33:32.400
And I said, ``Here is a man whose great love and passion and

851
00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:37.234
gift is dealing with reality everyday,'' and I said, ``that

852
00:33:37.234 --> 00:33:40.334
pulls me back, but if you tell me you can do it, you got it.''

853
00:33:40.334 --> 00:33:42.334
And he said, ``I can do it,'' I said, ``you got it.''

854
00:33:42.334 --> 00:33:43.334
All right.

855
00:33:43.334 --> 00:33:45.367
Let me move now to The Pelican Brief, because I want to get

856
00:33:45.367 --> 00:33:47.367
this in before you-- we have a couple of clips to see about

857
00:33:47.367 --> 00:33:48.367
this.

858
00:33:48.367 --> 00:33:50.367
Number one, why-- The Pelican Brief is the story of two

859
00:33:50.367 --> 00:33:52.367
Supreme Court justices who are assassinated.

860
00:33:52.367 --> 00:33:53.367
>>MR. PAKULA: That's right.

861
00:33:53.367 --> 00:33:54.367
There's a conspiracy.

862
00:33:54.367 --> 00:33:56.501
A constitutional law student, played by Julia Roberts,

863
00:33:56.501 --> 00:34:00.701
uncovers the story, in a sense, by her own research.

864
00:34:00.701 --> 00:34:02.167
>>MR. PAKULA: Right.

865
00:34:02.167 --> 00:34:04.234
She has a constitutional law professor she has a

866
00:34:04.234 --> 00:34:05.234
relationship with.

867
00:34:05.234 --> 00:34:08.734
He has a buddy at the FBI and somehow her brief comes, gets to

868
00:34:08.734 --> 00:34:09.734
Washington.

869
00:34:09.734 --> 00:34:12.701
Shepard is murdered, she gets involved in terms of trying to

870
00:34:12.701 --> 00:34:15.701
uncover this, with a reporter, played by Denzel Washington,

871
00:34:15.701 --> 00:34:17.367
whose name is Gary Grantham.

872
00:34:17.367 --> 00:34:18.734
>>MR. PAKULA: Gray Grantham.

873
00:34:18.734 --> 00:34:19.734
Gay.

874
00:34:19.734 --> 00:34:20.734
>>MR. PAKULA: Gray.

875
00:34:20.734 --> 00:34:24.400
Gray, right, not Gary, but Gray Grantham, and

876
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:27.734
all of a sudden-- so we have Roberts here, Julia Roberts

877
00:34:27.734 --> 00:34:28.734
and Denzel Washington.

878
00:34:28.734 --> 00:34:32.067
There is a romantic relationship in the book, not in the movie,

879
00:34:32.067 --> 00:34:35.033
but--

880
00:34:35.033 --> 00:34:36.033
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, you have to define romantic relationship.

881
00:34:36.033 --> 00:34:38.033
What's interesting about what happened with Denzel and Julia,

882
00:34:38.033 --> 00:34:41.100
and that came out in rehearsal, is there was-- been a lot of

883
00:34:41.100 --> 00:34:43.934
discussion about sex and things like that, and they came-- every

884
00:34:43.934 --> 00:34:45.968
time they came on a scene like that they said, ``It's going to

885
00:34:45.968 --> 00:34:46.968
be there, Alan, we don't have to talk about it.''

886
00:34:46.968 --> 00:34:48.133
Yeah.

887
00:34:48.133 --> 00:34:50.767
>>MR. PAKULA: And it became much more powerful.

888
00:34:50.767 --> 00:34:55.901
Nobody ever says, ``I love you.'' They discuss the story,

889
00:34:55.901 --> 00:34:57.901
and they're on the story, and that's what it's about, and

890
00:34:57.901 --> 00:34:59.734
that's what drives this film.

891
00:34:59.734 --> 00:35:03.567
Underneath, by not discussing it, there is a feeling between

892
00:35:03.567 --> 00:35:04.567
them, (crosstalk)--

893
00:35:04.567 --> 00:35:05.567
The attraction is there and the

894
00:35:05.567 --> 00:35:06.567
feeling is there.

895
00:35:06.567 --> 00:35:08.567
>>MR. PAKULA: The attraction is there and the caring is there.

896
00:35:08.567 --> 00:35:09.567
All right.

897
00:35:09.567 --> 00:35:10.567
Roll tape.

898
00:35:10.567 --> 00:35:12.567
This is a selection from Pelican Brief which by the way, as we

899
00:35:12.567 --> 00:35:15.267
said, is doing very well at the box office, and it is the first

900
00:35:15.267 --> 00:35:19.501
starring role for Julia Roberts after taking some time away from

901
00:35:19.501 --> 00:35:20.501
her career.

902
00:35:20.501 --> 00:35:22.601
Roll tape.

903
00:35:22.601 --> 00:35:24.601
(``The Pelican Brief,'' courtesy of Warner Brothers)

904
00:35:24.601 --> 00:35:26.634
Now, if your brief is right, and it

905
00:35:26.634 --> 00:35:28.968
ever reaches the light of day, the president has lost any chance

906
00:35:28.968 --> 00:35:29.968
for reelection.

907
00:35:29.968 --> 00:35:31.968
There are men around the president that won't let that

908
00:35:31.968 --> 00:35:32.968
happen.

909
00:35:32.968 --> 00:35:35.434
I checked with all my sources last night at the bureau,

910
00:35:35.434 --> 00:35:37.501
Langley, the White House.

911
00:35:37.501 --> 00:35:42.033
All of them said the brief doesn't exist, never has.

912
00:35:42.033 --> 00:35:44.234
You may be the only witness that can ever prove there was a

913
00:35:44.234 --> 00:35:45.234
brief.

914
00:35:45.234 --> 00:35:52.167
If you disappear, so does justice.

915
00:35:52.167 --> 00:35:54.133
Is that what Callahan would want?

916
00:35:54.133 --> 00:35:59.901
Thomas, I may see my 25th birthday.

917
00:35:59.901 --> 00:36:06.000
>>MS. WASHINGTON: Darby, if this thing reaches this deep and goes

918
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.667
as high as we think it does, these men will do anything not

919
00:36:09.667 --> 00:36:12.801
to be exposed.

920
00:36:12.801 --> 00:36:13.767
Where can you hide?

921
00:36:13.767 --> 00:36:18.100
Julia Roberts and Denzel Washington.

922
00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:20.000
Why these two actors?

923
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.501
Callahan was played by Sam Shepard, the character who was

924
00:36:23.501 --> 00:36:24.467
murdered.

925
00:36:24.467 --> 00:36:27.067
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, Julia, when I read the book, when I read the

926
00:36:27.067 --> 00:36:30.767
treatment outline I saw Julia, and I went down, I talked to

927
00:36:30.767 --> 00:36:33.934
John Grisham, and he said, ``Well, you're seeing Julia

928
00:36:33.934 --> 00:36:37.367
because I'm seeing Julia as I write it.'' And I had met with

929
00:36:37.367 --> 00:36:41.033
Julia a few months before that, just having seen her in a couple

930
00:36:41.033 --> 00:36:43.801
of pictures, including Pretty Woman, and I felt I'd love to

931
00:36:43.801 --> 00:36:44.801
work with her.

932
00:36:44.801 --> 00:36:46.901
And we had three hours together, and just talking about life, and

933
00:36:46.901 --> 00:36:48.901
I thought, ``This is someone I can communicate with.'' There

934
00:36:48.901 --> 00:36:51.734
are wonderful actors you should work with and wonderful actors

935
00:36:51.734 --> 00:36:53.734
you shouldn't work with, and you just don't have that spark

936
00:36:53.734 --> 00:36:54.734
together.

937
00:36:54.734 --> 00:36:55.734
Right.

938
00:36:55.734 --> 00:36:56.734
Right.

939
00:36:56.734 --> 00:36:58.734
>>MR. PAKULA: So I saw this, it was very right for her.

940
00:36:58.734 --> 00:37:02.334
I was fascinated by, for other reasons-- I love the idea of one

941
00:37:02.334 --> 00:37:04.701
person taking on the establishment and winning.

942
00:37:04.701 --> 00:37:06.300
It's in a lot of my films.

943
00:37:06.300 --> 00:37:08.300
Obviously, it's a great fantasy of mine.

944
00:37:08.300 --> 00:37:11.267
And so I went to Julia and I said, ``This is absolutely right

945
00:37:11.267 --> 00:37:15.434
for you.'' I said, ``It need somebody who is strong but also

946
00:37:15.434 --> 00:37:17.567
very vulnerable, and it needed somebody who was bright enough

947
00:37:17.567 --> 00:37:21.133
to do this.'' And she related very strongly with the material.

948
00:37:21.133 --> 00:37:22.901
Denzel was her idea.

949
00:37:22.901 --> 00:37:27.033
I was going through all the appropriate leading men in

950
00:37:27.033 --> 00:37:30.367
Hollywood and hadn't come up with anybody where there was

951
00:37:30.367 --> 00:37:31.367
great enthusiasm, and--

952
00:37:31.367 --> 00:37:33.534
In other words, you had not

953
00:37:33.534 --> 00:37:35.934
found at that time, before she suggested Denzel.

954
00:37:35.934 --> 00:37:36.934
>>MR. PAKULA: No, no, and--

955
00:37:36.934 --> 00:37:39.067
Somebody that knocked

956
00:37:39.067 --> 00:37:41.067
your socks off, and you said, ``That's right.''

957
00:37:41.067 --> 00:37:42.067
>>MR. PAKULA: That's it.

958
00:37:42.067 --> 00:37:43.067
No, I had not.

959
00:37:43.067 --> 00:37:45.067
And I felt it was-- the film could very easily get

960
00:37:45.067 --> 00:37:46.067
conventional.

961
00:37:46.067 --> 00:37:48.033
And she called me, she was in Ireland one day, and she called

962
00:37:48.033 --> 00:37:51.934
me and she said, ``Sit down, but what about Denzel Washington?"

963
00:37:51.934 --> 00:37:54.834
And I said, ``Well, he's a wonderful actor.'' I didn't

964
00:37:54.834 --> 00:37:57.200
think about him, obviously, because the part had not be

965
00:37:57.200 --> 00:37:59.334
written black, it never says what he is.

966
00:37:59.334 --> 00:38:02.601
And then I-- then I thought for about five seconds and I said,

967
00:38:02.601 --> 00:38:04.601
``It's a wonderful idea, (unintelligible) believe he's a

968
00:38:04.601 --> 00:38:07.133
journalist, he's wildly bright, he has strength, and I want

969
00:38:07.133 --> 00:38:10.234
somebody playing opposite you who has a strength, because it

970
00:38:10.234 --> 00:38:12.834
makes you stronger, because you really are two collaborators.''

971
00:38:12.834 --> 00:38:18.033
And I met with Denzel, turned out he had studied-- he had

972
00:38:18.033 --> 00:38:21.133
majored in journalism at Fordham, and when I sent him off

973
00:38:21.133 --> 00:38:24.067
to what I call the Bob Woodward School of Journalism for Actors,

974
00:38:24.067 --> 00:38:27.901
the one that Redford did, you know, the people at The

975
00:38:27.901 --> 00:38:31.267
Washington Post said, ``This man could be a journalist.'' And

976
00:38:31.267 --> 00:38:38.000
there was something exciting that was happening when two

977
00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:39.300
people work well together.

978
00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:42.000
First day of rehearsal, you just knew these people worked well

979
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:43.000
together.

980
00:38:43.000 --> 00:38:47.033
And beyond needing very good actors in those roles, this is a

981
00:38:47.033 --> 00:38:50.834
movie movie, the way movies were movies in the '40s, when stars

982
00:38:50.834 --> 00:38:54.033
were stars, and it needed wonderful actors who also had

983
00:38:54.033 --> 00:38:55.033
big star qualities.

984
00:38:55.033 --> 00:38:57.901
It's not just that they can open a picture at the box office, but

985
00:38:57.901 --> 00:39:00.734
who fill a screen with that excitement that makes us look up

986
00:39:00.734 --> 00:39:03.100
and say there's something bigger than life that's thrilling, kind

987
00:39:03.100 --> 00:39:06.934
of glamour, as well as having a truth and reality.

988
00:39:06.934 --> 00:39:11.033
And Julia has that, and Denzel has that, and something between

989
00:39:11.033 --> 00:39:15.767
them, and it's quality of mind as much as anything else, and

990
00:39:15.767 --> 00:39:18.834
the way they played off of each other was very exciting.

991
00:39:18.834 --> 00:39:21.367
And that's there or it's not there from the first day of

992
00:39:21.367 --> 00:39:22.367
rehearsal.

993
00:39:22.367 --> 00:39:24.367
It was there after the first hour of reading through the

994
00:39:24.367 --> 00:39:26.701
material, and they kept saying, ``We don't need that sex stuff.

995
00:39:26.701 --> 00:39:28.701
We don't need romantic talk, Alan.

996
00:39:28.701 --> 00:39:30.701
Stick with-- you keep saying you want to drive the story, you

997
00:39:30.701 --> 00:39:32.934
keep saying `Pace, pace pace,' you keep saying `Let's find the

998
00:39:32.934 --> 00:39:36.133
reality and then after we find it, bury it and go,' '' and they

999
00:39:36.133 --> 00:39:39.334
said, ``We can do this without having all this talk about it.''

1000
00:39:39.334 --> 00:39:42.701
And the talk, if anything, just released any erotic tension,

1001
00:39:42.701 --> 00:39:44.267
rather than building it.

1002
00:39:44.267 --> 00:39:49.234
So it was really Julia's idea, and then I steamrolled it into

1003
00:39:49.234 --> 00:39:52.534
the film.

1004
00:39:52.534 --> 00:39:54.534
Any objections at the studio?

1005
00:39:54.534 --> 00:39:55.534
>>MR. PAKULA: No.

1006
00:39:55.534 --> 00:39:56.534
They like Denzel a great deal.

1007
00:39:56.534 --> 00:39:58.534
They were surprised, because it hadn't been written that way.

1008
00:39:58.534 --> 00:40:00.534
One of the things I love about this film is you have a black

1009
00:40:00.534 --> 00:40:03.133
man and a white woman and it's not about race, it's about--

1010
00:40:03.133 --> 00:40:04.868
A story, right.

1011
00:40:04.868 --> 00:40:09.634
>>MR. PAKULA: --a journalist and a law student who are solving a

1012
00:40:09.634 --> 00:40:10.634
case.

1013
00:40:10.634 --> 00:40:11.634
There is also this.

1014
00:40:11.634 --> 00:40:13.901
Notwithstanding how well the show is doing at the box office,

1015
00:40:13.901 --> 00:40:18.267
some critics look at this and they say, ``It ain't as good as

1016
00:40:18.267 --> 00:40:22.133
what Pakula has done before.'' Now, that's a high standard, but

1017
00:40:22.133 --> 00:40:24.400
they look at All the President's Men and they look at some of

1018
00:40:24.400 --> 00:40:27.601
those-- and The Parallax View are the two most frequently--

1019
00:40:27.601 --> 00:40:28.634
comparisons made.

1020
00:40:28.634 --> 00:40:32.000
>>MR. PAKULA: Well, all right, but you know, what's interesting

1021
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:36.167
about Parallax View is Parallax View came out and by and large,

1022
00:40:36.167 --> 00:40:37.901
got knocked by the critics.

1023
00:40:37.901 --> 00:40:38.901
I know, I do.

1024
00:40:38.901 --> 00:40:40.901
>>MR. PAKULA: I mean, you pick up periodicals and magazines and

1025
00:40:40.901 --> 00:40:42.901
they say, ``Ah, but it's not The Parallax View, and I say, ``Why

1026
00:40:42.901 --> 00:40:44.901
don't you check with what your view was at the time with The

1027
00:40:44.901 --> 00:40:45.901
Parallax View?

1028
00:40:45.901 --> 00:40:47.901
I remember my wife, when she-- you know, I'd come home to

1029
00:40:47.901 --> 00:40:51.300
California from a trip selling the picture, and that morning,

1030
00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:53.334
in the Spanish house, where the bedroom was upstairs, she went

1031
00:40:53.334 --> 00:40:55.834
downstairs, I could hear her on the tile, her feet, open the

1032
00:40:55.834 --> 00:40:58.667
door, I knew she was reading The New York Times, and then

1033
00:40:58.667 --> 00:41:00.801
I heard hear, the footsteps disappear and not come upstairs.

1034
00:41:00.801 --> 00:41:03.200
That meant-- she would have woken me for a good review.

1035
00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:06.000
That meant forget about The New York Times, Alan.

1036
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:11.767
The Parallax View has taken on a mythic quality at this point.

1037
00:41:11.767 --> 00:41:14.100
It's the same picture it was when it opened.

1038
00:41:14.100 --> 00:41:18.434
All the President's Men was an important historical story.

1039
00:41:18.434 --> 00:41:23.400
This is fun, movie fun.

1040
00:41:23.400 --> 00:41:25.667
Hitchcock always said, ``If you do a melodrama, the critics are

1041
00:41:25.667 --> 00:41:31.334
not going to love you for it,'' and it had great zest for me.

1042
00:41:31.334 --> 00:41:35.667
It is about something in its own bravura, cinematic,

1043
00:41:35.667 --> 00:41:38.767
roller-coaster-ride terms.

1044
00:41:38.767 --> 00:41:42.467
I felt that it was wonderful for me to play with my craft, in

1045
00:41:42.467 --> 00:41:45.000
terms of it, and I felt it freed me, in terms of my craft.

1046
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:48.267
I had done Presumed Innocent, where I felt I had a very

1047
00:41:48.267 --> 00:41:50.334
tight-controlled picture in a lawyerly fashion.

1048
00:41:50.334 --> 00:41:53.801
This one I could free myself in certain ways.

1049
00:41:53.801 --> 00:41:56.834
I think it's a picture that's giving audiences a wonderful

1050
00:41:56.834 --> 00:41:57.834
time.

1051
00:41:57.834 --> 00:42:00.100
The exit polls that have been out have been absolutely

1052
00:42:00.100 --> 00:42:01.367
terrific.

1053
00:42:01.367 --> 00:42:07.868
And every picture you do for different reasons.

1054
00:42:07.868 --> 00:42:13.567
I'm glad I made it, and why is it that the past me always looks

1055
00:42:13.567 --> 00:42:14.534
better than the present me?

1056
00:42:14.534 --> 00:42:17.100
And-- but-- however, for me to come at it critically, hat I

1057
00:42:17.100 --> 00:42:19.100
always say about it critically, what I always say about critics

1058
00:42:19.100 --> 00:42:22.667
is they're paid to write about films, I'm paid to make them,

1059
00:42:22.667 --> 00:42:24.067
and I'm not going to discuss with you what they did, because

1060
00:42:24.067 --> 00:42:25.501
it's pointless.

1061
00:42:25.501 --> 00:42:26.234
Great to have you here.

1062
00:42:26.234 --> 00:42:26.801
>>MR. PAKULA: It's great to be here.

1063
00:42:26.801 --> 00:42:27.300
Pleasure.

1064
00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:27.868
Good to see you.

1065
00:42:27.868 --> 00:42:28.501
>>MR. PAKULA: Thank you.

1066
00:42:28.501 --> 00:42:29.434
ALAN PAKULA, The Pelican Brief.

1067
00:42:29.434 --> 00:42:30.334
Peter Raven is here.

1068
00:42:30.334 --> 00:42:32.334
We'll talk with this distinguished scientist about

1069
00:42:32.334 --> 00:42:36.167
endangered species and how he sees that battle and what the

1070
00:42:36.167 --> 00:42:39.701
consequences are, and what the debate is about and what's fact

1071
00:42:39.701 --> 00:42:40.834
and fiction.

1072
00:42:40.834 --> 00:42:45.767
Peter Raven from St. Louis, Missouri, what-- I can't

1073
00:42:45.767 --> 00:42:47.334
remember, I'll tell you about it when we come back.

1074
00:42:47.334 --> 00:42:48.901
Stay with us.

1075
00:43:02.167 --> 00:43:04.267
There are approximately 10 million types

1076
00:43:04.267 --> 00:43:07.901
of creatures inhabiting the earth, but only about 1.2

1077
00:43:07.901 --> 00:43:09.901
million have even been given a name.

1078
00:43:09.901 --> 00:43:13.400
And according to botanist Peter Raven, we stand to lose about

1079
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:17.334
one quarter of those species in the next 30 to 40 years if

1080
00:43:17.334 --> 00:43:19.801
current development continues apace.

1081
00:43:19.801 --> 00:43:22.400
Why is the diversity of life so important?

1082
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:25.701
Dr. RAVEN, who is director of the Missouri Botanical Garden

1083
00:43:25.701 --> 00:43:28.901
and co-director of the National Biological Survey, joins me now

1084
00:43:28.901 --> 00:43:30.067
to talk about this subject.

1085
00:43:30.067 --> 00:43:31.067
Welcome.

1086
00:43:31.067 --> 00:43:34.400
I kept-- I was hung up on botany rather than botanical

1087
00:43:34.400 --> 00:43:36.400
garden, I was trying to say Missouri Botany something.

1088
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.767
Anyway, Missouri Botanical Garden, which you have been for

1089
00:43:38.767 --> 00:43:40.767
some number of years, you assumed that job when you were

1090
00:43:40.767 --> 00:43:41.767
about 35 or so?

1091
00:43:41.767 --> 00:43:45.801
>>DR. PETER RAVEN: That's right, that's right.

1092
00:43:45.801 --> 00:43:47.801
You know, it's great to-- let me read from one

1093
00:43:47.801 --> 00:43:49.801
speech you said, and then we can take off from there.

1094
00:43:49.801 --> 00:43:51.801
This is a speech you gave in 1993.

1095
00:43:51.801 --> 00:43:53.801
You said, ``The earth, along with the other planets of the

1096
00:43:53.801 --> 00:43:57.033
solar system, was formed about 4.5 billion years ago.'' And

1097
00:43:57.033 --> 00:43:59.000
then I go to the last paragraph: ``We are living

1098
00:43:59.000 --> 00:44:01.801
there in the most tumultuous age of environment destruction,

1099
00:44:01.801 --> 00:44:05.868
climactic change, pollution and the loss of biodiversity that

1100
00:44:05.868 --> 00:44:07.868
the human race will ever experience.

1101
00:44:07.868 --> 00:44:10.334
It is fruitless to ask how much time we have to act in order to

1102
00:44:10.334 --> 00:44:15.300
avoid disaster, for the hour is plainly now.'' Tell me what's

1103
00:44:15.300 --> 00:44:19.334
at stake here, what's the disaster that we face, and what

1104
00:44:19.334 --> 00:44:21.234
can we do to act now?

1105
00:44:21.234 --> 00:44:24.067
>>DR. RAVEN: Well, people appeared in an earth that had an

1106
00:44:24.067 --> 00:44:27.200
enormous number of species that were working together and making

1107
00:44:27.200 --> 00:44:29.267
the earth function as a whole, you know.

1108
00:44:29.267 --> 00:44:32.834
And basically, as a result of all of our activities, and if

1109
00:44:32.834 --> 00:44:35.567
you look at what's happened in the last 40 years, those effects

1110
00:44:35.567 --> 00:44:39.334
were tremendous, loss of topsoil, change in the air, loss

1111
00:44:39.334 --> 00:44:42.100
of water, loss of about a third of the forests that were around

1112
00:44:42.100 --> 00:44:43.100
then.

1113
00:44:43.100 --> 00:44:45.767
As a result of all of those activities, the elements that

1114
00:44:45.767 --> 00:44:50.601
make the earth work are being lost, the species, the forests,

1115
00:44:50.601 --> 00:44:51.834
the whole business.

1116
00:44:51.834 --> 00:44:54.767
Why is there a debate about this?

1117
00:44:54.767 --> 00:44:58.734
Because you and Julian Simon from the University of Maryland

1118
00:44:58.734 --> 00:45:01.000
have, in fact, had these, a couple of debates, one I read

1119
00:45:01.000 --> 00:45:04.601
about, I think, in St. Louis, in which some people are saying

1120
00:45:04.601 --> 00:45:09.367
you, Dr. RAVEN, are a doomsday prognosticator and

1121
00:45:09.367 --> 00:45:12.667
notwithstanding the reputation that you are held around the

1122
00:45:12.667 --> 00:45:17.367
world as a botanist and as one who has spent a considerable

1123
00:45:17.367 --> 00:45:20.934
amount of your own academic time, that there are not that

1124
00:45:20.934 --> 00:45:22.934
many species in danger.

1125
00:45:22.934 --> 00:45:25.601
>>DR. RAVEN: I think it's mainly wishful thinking.

1126
00:45:25.601 --> 00:45:29.300
If you look at what has happened in the last 40 years, loss of

1127
00:45:29.300 --> 00:45:32.234
about 20 percent of all the topsoil, loss of about a third

1128
00:45:32.234 --> 00:45:36.234
of the forests, loss of about 15 percent of all the agricultural

1129
00:45:36.234 --> 00:45:39.734
land, serious changes in the atmosphere, it's hard to imagine

1130
00:45:39.734 --> 00:45:41.834
how you wouldn't be losing a lot of species.

1131
00:45:41.834 --> 00:45:44.067
I think it's mainly sort of non-nothingism (sp?)

1132
00:45:44.067 --> 00:45:46.968
and a desire to get on with business as usual.

1133
00:45:46.968 --> 00:45:49.734
There is no serious scientific debate about what's going on.

1134
00:45:49.734 --> 00:45:52.167
There is a debate about the speed, but not about what's

1135
00:45:52.167 --> 00:45:53.167
going on.

1136
00:45:53.167 --> 00:45:54.701
What can we do?

1137
00:45:54.701 --> 00:45:59.734
>>DR. RAVEN: Species will be saved and therefore useful to us

1138
00:45:59.734 --> 00:46:03.734
or able to stabilize the world only if the world environment is

1139
00:46:03.734 --> 00:46:05.501
managed in a sustainable way.

1140
00:46:05.501 --> 00:46:08.400
You know, everybody talks about sustainability, but nobody does

1141
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:09.400
much about it.

1142
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:12.534
It's hard to define, it's hard to do.

1143
00:46:12.534 --> 00:46:14.801
Is any agriculture at all sustainable?

1144
00:46:14.801 --> 00:46:16.234
Probably very little.

1145
00:46:16.234 --> 00:46:18.234
Is anything that we do sustainable?

1146
00:46:18.234 --> 00:46:20.133
We still have to find out.

1147
00:46:20.133 --> 00:46:23.801
Our use of what the world produces is so intense and our

1148
00:46:23.801 --> 00:46:27.701
numbers are growing so rapidly that the jury is still out as to

1149
00:46:27.701 --> 00:46:30.000
whether we can manage the world sustainably.

1150
00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:32.834
It's certainly been a very long time since we have.

1151
00:46:32.834 --> 00:46:37.300
Until we do that, until we can control pollution and limit our

1152
00:46:37.300 --> 00:46:40.334
use of resources which are disappearing, you know, on a

1153
00:46:40.334 --> 00:46:44.601
one-shot basis, rather than being passed on in any kind of--

1154
00:46:44.601 --> 00:46:47.968
until we can do that, the preservation of biological

1155
00:46:47.968 --> 00:46:49.834
diversity is kind of a fantasy.

1156
00:46:49.834 --> 00:46:52.434
What is biological diversity, in fact?

1157
00:46:52.434 --> 00:46:55.601
>>DR. RAVEN: Well, all the kinds of organisms in the world,

1158
00:46:55.601 --> 00:46:59.000
plants and animals, microorganisms, put together,

1159
00:46:59.000 --> 00:47:01.167
all of their variation and all of the communities that they

1160
00:47:01.167 --> 00:47:03.701
make up, all of the aggregations that they make up.

1161
00:47:03.701 --> 00:47:07.067
The whole business, what makes the world work, what makes the

1162
00:47:07.067 --> 00:47:10.033
world able to capture energy from the sun and use it and

1163
00:47:10.033 --> 00:47:11.033
expend it.

1164
00:47:11.033 --> 00:47:13.300
So the biodiversity is this ecosystem that exists

1165
00:47:13.300 --> 00:47:16.234
between plants and animals.

1166
00:47:16.234 --> 00:47:17.467
>>DR. RAVEN: The whole business.

1167
00:47:17.467 --> 00:47:18.601
The whole business.

1168
00:47:18.601 --> 00:47:20.267
And the whole business.

1169
00:47:20.267 --> 00:47:23.501
You-- I assume you have enormous respect for Bruce Babbitt.

1170
00:47:23.501 --> 00:47:24.634
>>DR. RAVEN: I certainly do.

1171
00:47:24.634 --> 00:47:29.300
He has appointed you as one of two people

1172
00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:33.200
to oversee, as I understand it, the mapping of the--

1173
00:47:33.200 --> 00:47:34.200
>>DR. RAVEN: Well, not exactly.

1174
00:47:34.200 --> 00:47:36.200
I chaired a National Research Council study advising the

1175
00:47:36.200 --> 00:47:39.934
Department of Interior about how the National Biological Survey

1176
00:47:39.934 --> 00:47:41.334
might proceed.

1177
00:47:41.334 --> 00:47:44.367
He's yet to appoint a head for the survey, I mean, a permanent

1178
00:47:44.367 --> 00:47:45.367
head for the survey.

1179
00:47:45.367 --> 00:47:47.467
Why is the survey important, and what will it do?

1180
00:47:47.467 --> 00:47:50.033
>>DR. RAVEN: What's really important is Bruce Babbitt's

1181
00:47:50.033 --> 00:47:51.167
wholistic view of things.

1182
00:47:51.167 --> 00:47:53.567
I mean, look at the debate in the Pacific Northwest, for

1183
00:47:53.567 --> 00:47:54.567
example.

1184
00:47:54.567 --> 00:47:57.133
You know, people say it's about jobs versus owls.

1185
00:47:57.133 --> 00:47:59.567
You know, both of those terms are ridiculous.

1186
00:47:59.567 --> 00:48:02.267
The debate is really about what the Pacific Northwest is going

1187
00:48:02.267 --> 00:48:03.267
to be like.

1188
00:48:03.267 --> 00:48:05.267
So you've got to look at it as a region.

1189
00:48:05.267 --> 00:48:06.267
>>DR. RAVEN: Yeah.

1190
00:48:06.267 --> 00:48:08.267
Why do people really like to live there?

1191
00:48:08.267 --> 00:48:09.267
What have they got to offer?

1192
00:48:09.267 --> 00:48:10.267
Why is it beautiful?

1193
00:48:10.267 --> 00:48:12.300
Why is it a pleasant place to be?

1194
00:48:12.300 --> 00:48:13.300
Why are the streams clear?

1195
00:48:13.300 --> 00:48:15.434
Why does it have the kind of climate it does?

1196
00:48:15.434 --> 00:48:16.467
All of those things.

1197
00:48:16.467 --> 00:48:21.667
And we use the jobs which are, you know, short-term anyway, and

1198
00:48:21.667 --> 00:48:23.667
we use the owls as kind of surrogates, legalistic ways of

1199
00:48:23.667 --> 00:48:25.667
approaching it, but there's much more at stake than that.

1200
00:48:25.667 --> 00:48:27.667
It's what is the region, what do we want it to be like?

1201
00:48:27.667 --> 00:48:30.200
But let's assume you don't save the owl, okay?

1202
00:48:30.200 --> 00:48:32.200
How is that going to change the region?

1203
00:48:32.200 --> 00:48:44.167
>>DR. RAVEN: You know, the owl is really the symbol of the

1204
00:48:44.167 --> 00:48:45.167
forests, so to speak.

1205
00:48:45.167 --> 00:48:47.834
You're trying to save the owl because by doing that you save

1206
00:48:47.834 --> 00:48:48.834
forests.

1207
00:48:48.834 --> 00:48:50.834
If you cut the remaining forests on public land, ancient forests,

1208
00:48:50.834 --> 00:48:52.834
the character of the region changes permanently.

1209
00:48:52.834 --> 00:48:54.834
It already has been changed permanently.

1210
00:48:54.834 --> 00:48:56.834
So you say, well, an endangered subspecies is in those forests,

1211
00:48:56.834 --> 00:48:58.834
the owl, and we have laws that protect it, but the important

1212
00:48:58.834 --> 00:49:02.000
thing in the broad sense is what happens to all the other tens of

1213
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.033
thousands of species that are in those same forests?

1214
00:49:04.033 --> 00:49:06.100
What do Oregon and Washington end up looking like?

1215
00:49:06.100 --> 00:49:08.100
Why would tourists want to go there?

1216
00:49:08.100 --> 00:49:09.467
Why would streams be clear?

1217
00:49:09.467 --> 00:49:12.167
I should also make clear that you believe that--

1218
00:49:12.167 --> 00:49:15.868
>>DR. RAVEN: So you can't get rid of the owl and save the rest.

1219
00:49:15.868 --> 00:49:16.868
That's the point.

1220
00:49:16.868 --> 00:49:18.901
But you also have--

1221
00:49:18.901 --> 00:49:19.901
>>DR. RAVEN: (crosstalk) have saved the owl without saving

1222
00:49:19.901 --> 00:49:20.934
the rest, rather.

1223
00:49:20.934 --> 00:49:25.033
Rush Limbaugh and others who, as you know,

1224
00:49:25.033 --> 00:49:26.033
will make this point.

1225
00:49:26.033 --> 00:49:29.033
They will say, ``Look, there's not one owl that's worth the job

1226
00:49:29.033 --> 00:49:33.834
of a human being who supports his or her family with that

1227
00:49:33.834 --> 00:49:37.334
job.'' I don't think-- you are not immune to that argument, are

1228
00:49:37.334 --> 00:49:38.334
you?

1229
00:49:38.334 --> 00:49:41.267
You're not-- you accept that argument that those jobs are

1230
00:49:41.267 --> 00:49:45.634
important, and you point your finger at government and other

1231
00:49:45.634 --> 00:49:48.000
institutions for not creating alternative jobs for those

1232
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:49.000
people--

1233
00:49:49.000 --> 00:49:50.334
>>DR. RAVEN: Exactly.

1234
00:49:50.334 --> 00:49:53.033
--and being sympathetic to that argument.

1235
00:49:53.033 --> 00:49:54.033
>>DR. RAVEN: Precisely.

1236
00:49:54.033 --> 00:49:55.000
Precisely.

1237
00:49:55.000 --> 00:49:58.868
We haven't yet developed a national will or a way of coping

1238
00:49:58.868 --> 00:50:02.634
with situations like that that lets us really address it, you

1239
00:50:02.634 --> 00:50:03.634
know.

1240
00:50:03.634 --> 00:50:06.033
It's not a matter of depriving people of their jobs, it's a

1241
00:50:06.033 --> 00:50:08.567
matter of developing a national will to do something and then

1242
00:50:08.567 --> 00:50:10.567
getting on with doing it properly.

1243
00:50:10.567 --> 00:50:12.534
Are we the worst offenders in the world, or not?

1244
00:50:12.534 --> 00:50:14.534
>>DR. RAVEN: Well, we're the biggest consumers in the world,

1245
00:50:14.534 --> 00:50:15.534
you know.

1246
00:50:15.534 --> 00:50:17.534
We're so worried about population in other countries,

1247
00:50:17.534 --> 00:50:19.534
and yet a baby born in the United States consumes 40, 50

1248
00:50:19.534 --> 00:50:21.534
times what a baby born in Bangladesh consumes.

1249
00:50:21.534 --> 00:50:23.534
We use more individually than anybody else.

1250
00:50:23.534 --> 00:50:26.067
We're the richest country that's ever existed.

1251
00:50:26.067 --> 00:50:29.701
In that sense, our impact is tremendous.

1252
00:50:29.701 --> 00:50:32.434
Are we the worst offenders about exterminating our own

1253
00:50:32.434 --> 00:50:33.434
species?

1254
00:50:33.434 --> 00:50:36.000
No, because we spend a certain amount of capital in preserving

1255
00:50:36.000 --> 00:50:37.000
them.

1256
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:39.601
It is extraordinary to me that -- listen to this,

1257
00:50:39.601 --> 00:50:40.601
and this is from a piece about you that I read

1258
00:50:40.601 --> 00:50:43.267
when you were made the 1989

1259
00:50:43.267 --> 00:50:46.601
St. Louis man of the year -- ``Of the 2.7 billion people in

1260
00:50:46.601 --> 00:50:50.334
developing countries outside of China, the World Bank estimates

1261
00:50:50.334 --> 00:50:53.467
that 1 billion of them live in extreme poverty.

1262
00:50:53.467 --> 00:50:56.601
That's one out of five in the world, and that 500 million

1263
00:50:56.601 --> 00:50:59.901
receive less than 80 percent of the United Nations' recommended

1264
00:50:59.901 --> 00:51:02.834
minimum dietary allowance, which means that their minds and

1265
00:51:02.834 --> 00:51:04.834
bodies cannot develop properly.'' There's an

1266
00:51:04.834 --> 00:51:08.400
extraordinary sense of what is happening to the people of the

1267
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:09.400
world.

1268
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:12.200
>>DR. RAVEN: The problem is, the United States has more at stake

1269
00:51:12.200 --> 00:51:14.701
in all of those countries than anybody else.

1270
00:51:14.701 --> 00:51:17.467
I mean, we're the richest country that ever existed.

1271
00:51:17.467 --> 00:51:20.467
Everybody knows that economy is international right now and that

1272
00:51:20.467 --> 00:51:24.167
we have a huge stake in dealing with countries around the world

1273
00:51:24.167 --> 00:51:25.234
and in their stability.

1274
00:51:25.234 --> 00:51:29.000
And the point is, what we do in trying very properly to balance

1275
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:31.868
the budget is, we cut foreign development assistance outside

1276
00:51:31.868 --> 00:51:35.067
of Israel, Egypt and Russia, in half.

1277
00:51:35.067 --> 00:51:36.334
That's really wrong-minded.

1278
00:51:36.334 --> 00:51:38.334
We spend less on this than anybody else.

1279
00:51:38.334 --> 00:51:40.334
Of course, the American public would answer you by

1280
00:51:40.334 --> 00:51:42.334
saying, ``Look, we've got a lot of-- enough problems here at

1281
00:51:42.334 --> 00:51:43.334
home.

1282
00:51:43.334 --> 00:51:45.300
We can't worry about the rest of the world.''

1283
00:51:45.300 --> 00:51:46.300
>>DR. RAVEN: What we need is the longer-range vision

1284
00:51:46.300 --> 00:51:47.501
which says that the rest of the

1285
00:51:47.501 --> 00:51:50.934
world is the way we're either going to prosper or not.

1286
00:51:50.934 --> 00:51:51.934
Yeah.

1287
00:51:51.934 --> 00:51:54.167
We will either hang together or we'll hang separately, as

1288
00:51:54.167 --> 00:51:55.334
someone once said.

1289
00:51:55.334 --> 00:51:58.567
>>DR. RAVEN: We do need it to be stable and productive.

1290
00:51:58.567 --> 00:52:01.567
Let me look at some quick slides, and just

1291
00:52:01.567 --> 00:52:03.567
give me some sense of what we are looking at here.

1292
00:52:03.567 --> 00:52:04.567
Slide number one.

1293
00:52:04.567 --> 00:52:06.601
>>DR. RAVEN: That's an orchid in western Ecuador.

1294
00:52:06.601 --> 00:52:08.567
Only one individual was ever found.

1295
00:52:08.567 --> 00:52:10.567
It was found on a tree that had been cut down.

1296
00:52:10.567 --> 00:52:11.634
It's only now in cultivation.

1297
00:52:11.634 --> 00:52:13.634
And the thing is, western Ecuador has been totally

1298
00:52:13.634 --> 00:52:15.634
deforested in the last 40 years.

1299
00:52:15.634 --> 00:52:16.634
Yeah, next slide.

1300
00:52:16.634 --> 00:52:17.634
This is Sumatra.

1301
00:52:17.634 --> 00:52:18.634
>>DR. RAVEN: Mm-hmm.

1302
00:52:18.634 --> 00:52:20.634
That shows you how forests that could be productive, that

1303
00:52:20.634 --> 00:52:23.601
contain an awful lot, very, very many organisms that could be

1304
00:52:23.601 --> 00:52:25.601
used by people is being destroyed.

1305
00:52:25.601 --> 00:52:27.934
That's a clean cut if I've ever seen one.

1306
00:52:27.934 --> 00:52:31.200
>>DR. RAVEN: The problem is not just being used, the problem is

1307
00:52:31.200 --> 00:52:33.200
it's one time it's being consumed.

1308
00:52:33.200 --> 00:52:34.200
Slide three.

1309
00:52:34.200 --> 00:52:35.200
Corn.

1310
00:52:35.200 --> 00:52:37.467
>>DR. RAVEN: Corn, that's the diversity of corn from a single

1311
00:52:37.467 --> 00:52:39.100
crib in central Mexico.

1312
00:52:39.100 --> 00:52:43.834
It's put in to make the point that of all the crops we grow in

1313
00:52:43.834 --> 00:52:47.200
the United States, only a tiny handful were actually

1314
00:52:47.200 --> 00:52:48.200
domesticated here.

1315
00:52:48.200 --> 00:52:51.868
For all the others we depend on somebody else's genes, genetic

1316
00:52:51.868 --> 00:52:52.868
material.

1317
00:52:52.868 --> 00:52:53.868
Slide four.

1318
00:52:53.868 --> 00:52:57.234
>>DR. RAVEN: That's a plant, ancistro cladis (sp?)

1319
00:52:57.234 --> 00:52:59.634
that the Missouri Botanical Garden, under contract with the

1320
00:52:59.634 --> 00:53:04.067
National Cancer Institute, found in Cameroon, in west Africa.

1321
00:53:04.067 --> 00:53:07.234
So far, extracts from that plant have been effective against the

1322
00:53:07.234 --> 00:53:10.100
HIV virus, and it's going into clinical testing next year.

1323
00:53:10.100 --> 00:53:12.133
Yet it's very rare in the wild.

1324
00:53:12.133 --> 00:53:13.300
And is endangered.

1325
00:53:13.300 --> 00:53:14.934
>>DR. RAVEN: It's very much so.

1326
00:53:14.934 --> 00:53:17.634
But we've established a plantation in Cameroon, so now

1327
00:53:17.634 --> 00:53:18.634
it's being grown.

1328
00:53:18.634 --> 00:53:19.634
All right.

1329
00:53:19.634 --> 00:53:20.634
Quickly, the next one.

1330
00:53:20.634 --> 00:53:22.267
>>DR. RAVEN: Just cotton.

1331
00:53:22.267 --> 00:53:25.367
Half the insecticides in the world go on cotton, and yet

1332
00:53:25.367 --> 00:53:28.200
genetic engineering has the potential of producing cotton

1333
00:53:28.200 --> 00:53:30.200
that's resistant and avoiding that.

1334
00:53:30.200 --> 00:53:32.200
It would cut pollution tremendously.

1335
00:53:32.200 --> 00:53:34.200
And we were talking about the

1336
00:53:34.200 --> 00:53:36.200
Pacific Northwest forest, which is the region (inaudible)

1337
00:53:36.200 --> 00:53:37.200
that you're going to prospect.

1338
00:53:37.200 --> 00:53:38.167
I mean, if you can't love that.

1339
00:53:38.167 --> 00:53:40.167
>>DR. RAVEN: Well, you have to think about that.

1340
00:53:40.167 --> 00:53:42.501
That's not expressed either as jobs or as owls, that's

1341
00:53:42.501 --> 00:53:43.834
expressed as itself.

1342
00:53:43.834 --> 00:53:44.901
Yeah.

1343
00:53:44.901 --> 00:53:47.200
Are you hopeful that the victory can be-- that you can ignite the

1344
00:53:47.200 --> 00:53:51.267
consciousness of the public so that there is an imperative to

1345
00:53:51.267 --> 00:53:53.767
do something?

1346
00:53:53.767 --> 00:53:58.601
>>DR. RAVEN: Americans are more and more conscious about their

1347
00:53:58.601 --> 00:54:01.234
own consumption, and I think, during the '90s, we'll go to an

1348
00:54:01.234 --> 00:54:04.033
international consciousness, and I'm doing everything I can to

1349
00:54:04.033 --> 00:54:05.067
try to promote that.

1350
00:54:05.067 --> 00:54:09.133
And the place where you have the most --

1351
00:54:09.133 --> 00:54:10.133
am I correct in believing this?

1352
00:54:10.133 --> 00:54:12.400
-- that the most-- the hugest threat today is in the

1353
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:13.400
rainforest?

1354
00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:15.501
>>DR. RAVEN: It's in the rainforest, but you have to

1355
00:54:15.501 --> 00:54:17.968
remember it's all part of the system, and we're part of the

1356
00:54:17.968 --> 00:54:20.334
system as much as the people who live there.

1357
00:54:20.334 --> 00:54:24.167
Unless we work together to solve the problem, it won't be solved.

1358
00:54:24.167 --> 00:54:28.767
Peter Raven is a botanist, he is director of the

1359
00:54:28.767 --> 00:54:29.767
Missouri Botanical Gardens.

1360
00:54:29.767 --> 00:54:31.767
He's been in New York to make a speech with the--

1361
00:54:31.767 --> 00:54:32.767
>>DR. RAVEN: The Youth and Science Center.

1362
00:54:32.767 --> 00:54:34.767
--the (crosstalk) and Science Center.

1363
00:54:34.767 --> 00:54:36.767
and it's always a pleasure to have them make you and others

1364
00:54:36.767 --> 00:54:37.767
available to us.

1365
00:54:37.767 --> 00:54:38.767
I thank you for coming.

1366
00:54:38.767 --> 00:54:40.767
>>DR. RAVEN: That you for coming.

1367
00:54:40.767 --> 00:54:41.767
Pleasure.

1368
00:54:41.767 --> 00:54:42.767
We thank you for watching.

1369
00:54:42.767 --> 00:54:44.767
My thanks to PEGGY NOONAN and also ALAN PAKULA and Dr. PETER

1370
00:54:44.767 --> 00:54:45.767
RAVEN.

1371
00:54:45.767 --> 00:54:47.767
We look forward to seeing you tomorrow night from Washington,

1372
00:54:47.767 --> 00:54:49.767
D.C. Charles Krauthammer will talk about the President's

1373
00:54:49.767 --> 00:54:52.033
foreign policy -- the President is giving a major speech

1374
00:54:52.033 --> 00:54:53.667
tomorrow -- that and Vin Weber on the Republican Party tomorrow

1375
00:54:53.667 --> 00:54:55.200
night from Washington.

1376
00:54:55.200 --> 00:54:57.934
See you then.