WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.434 --> 00:00:13.434 Tonight, a conversation with 2 00:00:13.434 --> 00:00:14.534 President Obama. 3 00:00:14.534 --> 00:00:17.634 This week he traveled to Saudi Arabia, the United Kingdom, 4 00:00:17.634 --> 00:00:18.767 and Germany. 5 00:00:18.767 --> 00:00:21.501 Our relationship with those allies, the wars in Iraq and 6 00:00:21.501 --> 00:00:24.567 Syria, the roles of Russian and Iran will be key items 7 00:00:24.567 --> 00:00:25.968 on his agenda. 8 00:00:25.968 --> 00:00:28.400 Also talked with the president about how he sees America's role 9 00:00:28.400 --> 00:00:31.267 in the world, the lessons he has learned, and what he hopes 10 00:00:31.267 --> 00:00:34.133 to accomplish in his last year in office. 11 00:00:34.133 --> 00:00:35.934 The interview took place Monday afternoon, 12 00:00:35.934 --> 00:00:38.534 in the Blue Room at the White House. 13 00:00:38.534 --> 00:00:39.567 And here is that conversation. 14 00:00:40.701 --> 00:00:42.267 Thank you for letting us to be here, 15 00:00:42.267 --> 00:00:43.300 it's a great pleasure to see you again. 16 00:00:43.300 --> 00:00:44.300 Great to have you, Charlie. 17 00:00:44.300 --> 00:00:45.567 You're going to Saudi Arabia... 18 00:00:45.567 --> 00:00:46.100 Right. 19 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:47.701 ... and you arrive there on Wednesday. 20 00:00:47.701 --> 00:00:50.834 These are friends of the United States, and they've expressed 21 00:00:50.834 --> 00:00:54.000 some concern about the relationship with America. 22 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:56.767 A lot of it is old ideas having to do with the Iranian 23 00:00:56.767 --> 00:00:58.400 nuclear deal. 24 00:00:58.400 --> 00:01:01.167 Some new thing came out in a magazine article written by 25 00:01:01.167 --> 00:01:02.767 Jeff Goldberg. 26 00:01:02.767 --> 00:01:03.634 Right. 27 00:01:03.634 --> 00:01:05.300 Do you have any reservations about 28 00:01:05.300 --> 00:01:06.501 anything you've said? 29 00:01:06.501 --> 00:01:09.734 Would you like to change anything or modify in that 30 00:01:09.734 --> 00:01:12.701 article about how you saw the Obama Doctrine? 31 00:01:12.701 --> 00:01:15.033 No, I think it's important to look at my quotes 32 00:01:15.033 --> 00:01:17.734 as opposed to whatever is surrounding those quotes. 33 00:01:17.734 --> 00:01:21.434 And what I've indicated in the past, I continue to believe, 34 00:01:21.434 --> 00:01:25.100 which is that Saudi Arabia has been a strong ally of the 35 00:01:25.100 --> 00:01:27.701 United States, and a friend of the United States, 36 00:01:27.701 --> 00:01:29.801 certainly since I have been president. 37 00:01:29.801 --> 00:01:33.133 Our interactions with them around counterterrorism issues 38 00:01:33.133 --> 00:01:34.334 has been vital. 39 00:01:34.334 --> 00:01:36.968 I think that they have been cooperative in trying to 40 00:01:36.968 --> 00:01:41.501 stabilize a region that is going through tumultuous times. 41 00:01:41.501 --> 00:01:46.334 We did have a significant difference on the Iran nuclear 42 00:01:46.334 --> 00:01:49.767 deal, but ultimately they supported it, after we explained 43 00:01:49.767 --> 00:01:55.734 to them exactly why this was the best path for us making sure 44 00:01:55.734 --> 00:01:58.300 Iran did not obtain a nuclear weapon. 45 00:01:58.300 --> 00:02:03.400 I think that all the evidence subsequent to that deal has 46 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:08.934 borne out my argument that, in fact, Iran would abide by it. 47 00:02:08.934 --> 00:02:14.400 And I think that there is also a continuing belief on my part 48 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:19.701 that Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States, generally, have to be 49 00:02:19.701 --> 00:02:22.901 guarded against Iran, they have to be in a position where they 50 00:02:22.901 --> 00:02:27.701 can defend themselves against Iranian mischief in the region. 51 00:02:27.701 --> 00:02:33.267 But that, in the end, Iran is a large country in the region 52 00:02:33.267 --> 00:02:37.434 and that a proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran 53 00:02:37.434 --> 00:02:39.100 is in nobody's interest. 54 00:02:39.100 --> 00:02:43.567 It's not in Saudi Arabia's interests, it's not in Iraq's 55 00:02:43.567 --> 00:02:45.734 interests, it's not in Jordan's interests, 56 00:02:45.734 --> 00:02:47.334 it's not in the United States' interests. 57 00:02:47.334 --> 00:02:51.000 So when I had Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf countries up to 58 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:54.567 Camp David, our goal was to say how can we give you confidence 59 00:02:54.567 --> 00:02:59.534 that you are protected against any state that might attack you? 60 00:02:59.534 --> 00:03:06.734 How are you organized to prevent arms flowing into your country 61 00:03:06.734 --> 00:03:11.067 that get into the hands of provocateurs or terrorists? 62 00:03:11.067 --> 00:03:14.801 But also how can we work together on the diplomatic front 63 00:03:14.801 --> 00:03:20.501 to try to resolve conflicts like Syria that threaten to 64 00:03:20.501 --> 00:03:22.300 burn down the entire region? 65 00:03:22.300 --> 00:03:24.801 And occasionally, there going to be differences in terms of 66 00:03:24.801 --> 00:03:32.000 tactics in how we view both U.S. policy as well as Saudi policy, 67 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:35.734 but that's true among all the allies and friends that we have. 68 00:03:35.734 --> 00:03:37.100 Just back to the article for a second. 69 00:03:37.100 --> 00:03:39.534 It was titled, The Obama Doctrine. 70 00:03:39.534 --> 00:03:41.868 What is the Obama Doctrine? 71 00:03:41.868 --> 00:03:44.100 I didn't title as such. 72 00:03:44.100 --> 00:03:49.601 You know, I've always shied away from labeling my foreign policy 73 00:03:49.601 --> 00:03:56.334 under a single banner because the hallmark, I hope, of my 74 00:03:56.334 --> 00:04:01.701 foreign policy has been to be very practical in thinking 75 00:04:01.701 --> 00:04:05.033 about how do we advance U.S. interests, how do we make sure 76 00:04:05.033 --> 00:04:07.267 that the United States is safe and secure? 77 00:04:07.267 --> 00:04:12.601 How do we promote international rules and norms that have been 78 00:04:12.601 --> 00:04:18.601 critical in the development of not just U.S. peace 79 00:04:18.601 --> 00:04:22.734 and prosperity after World War II, but the entire world's? 80 00:04:22.734 --> 00:04:26.133 How do we promote our values in a way that recognizes it's not 81 00:04:26.133 --> 00:04:28.000 always going to be perfectly consistent? 82 00:04:28.000 --> 00:04:29.767 There's going to be times where we're dealing with a country 83 00:04:29.767 --> 00:04:33.968 that doesn't follow democracy the way we would hope, 84 00:04:33.968 --> 00:04:35.467 or human rights the way we would hope. 85 00:04:35.467 --> 00:04:39.868 But -- and so, what I think emerges from that article, 86 00:04:39.868 --> 00:04:42.634 but more importantly from the actions that we've taken since 87 00:04:42.634 --> 00:04:47.567 I have been president, is somebody who is committed to 88 00:04:47.567 --> 00:04:49.934 keeping Americans safe, we'll go after anybody who's going 89 00:04:49.934 --> 00:04:54.200 after us, whether ISIL, or Al- Qaeda, or Bin Laden, or anybody 90 00:04:54.200 --> 00:04:58.734 else, but also is using diplomacy, multi-lateral 91 00:04:58.734 --> 00:05:03.701 institutions, economic development strategies, human 92 00:05:03.701 --> 00:05:11.100 rights as tools to continue to promote what I think is the best 93 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:12.400 tradition of American foreign policy. 94 00:05:12.400 --> 00:05:13.701 But it has been part of your policy which is 95 00:05:13.701 --> 00:05:14.601 a pivot to China. 96 00:05:14.601 --> 00:05:15.400 Yes. 97 00:05:15.400 --> 00:05:17.767 And on top of that, is some sense that you 98 00:05:17.767 --> 00:05:21.334 think the United States, because of the future in Asia, 99 00:05:21.334 --> 00:05:23.934 should not get bogged down in the Middle East. 100 00:05:23.934 --> 00:05:26.934 What do you define as, getting bogged down in the Middle East? 101 00:05:26.934 --> 00:05:29.334 Well, what is true, is number one, 102 00:05:29.334 --> 00:05:33.267 I think that our invasion of Iraq was a mistake. 103 00:05:33.267 --> 00:05:38.300 I mean, that's well known, that was part of what the debate 104 00:05:38.300 --> 00:05:41.734 back in 2008 was about. 105 00:05:41.734 --> 00:05:45.667 What I believe is that the United States as the world's 106 00:05:45.667 --> 00:05:49.334 singular super power has an obligation in all areas of the 107 00:05:49.334 --> 00:05:53.801 world where there's mayhem, and war, and conflict, for us to 108 00:05:53.801 --> 00:05:55.868 try to be a positive force. 109 00:05:55.868 --> 00:06:01.100 But that does not mean that we should be deploying troops 110 00:06:01.100 --> 00:06:03.901 everywhere where a crisis is taking place, that we have to be 111 00:06:03.901 --> 00:06:07.300 judicious about how we use military power, that we should 112 00:06:07.300 --> 00:06:13.934 not view ourselves as the muscle for any particular side 113 00:06:13.934 --> 00:06:19.234 of a dispute if and when it does not directly relate to 114 00:06:19.234 --> 00:06:22.400 U.S. core interests, but rather, it's important for us to use 115 00:06:22.400 --> 00:06:26.734 diplomacy, and work with other countries, and build coalitions 116 00:06:26.734 --> 00:06:27.968 to try to resolve these issues. 117 00:06:27.968 --> 00:06:31.100 So, you know, probably the area where I've gotten the most 118 00:06:31.100 --> 00:06:35.400 criticism from, some in the foreign policy establishment 119 00:06:35.400 --> 00:06:38.167 here in Washington, is around the Syria situation. 120 00:06:38.167 --> 00:06:38.934 And the red line. 121 00:06:38.934 --> 00:06:43.267 And there, what you have is people who I think 122 00:06:43.267 --> 00:06:48.167 instinctively feel that, where something is going wrong, where 123 00:06:48.167 --> 00:06:51.868 we have a problem, the solution is for the United States 124 00:06:51.868 --> 00:06:55.334 to send its military in and impose order. 125 00:06:55.334 --> 00:06:59.400 Surely what we've learned, not just from Iraq, but even the 126 00:06:59.400 --> 00:07:01.767 great challenges that we've had in places like Afghanistan, 127 00:07:01.767 --> 00:07:06.667 where we've now been there 13 years, devoted enormous 128 00:07:06.667 --> 00:07:11.000 resources, lives lost, and I can tell you from visiting 129 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:12.501 Afghanistan, talking to our troops, 130 00:07:12.501 --> 00:07:14.033 they are the best of the best. 131 00:07:14.033 --> 00:07:15.634 I mean, these folks know what they are doing, 132 00:07:15.634 --> 00:07:17.667 they are outstanding in what they do. 133 00:07:17.667 --> 00:07:21.133 And yet, it's still a very challenging environment. 134 00:07:21.133 --> 00:07:24.734 So the notion that, while we were still busy in Afghanistan, 135 00:07:24.734 --> 00:07:30.801 still trying to keep Iraq together, that we would now then 136 00:07:30.801 --> 00:07:35.300 potentially involve ourselves in another military excursion in 137 00:07:35.300 --> 00:07:43.501 Syria, that's the kind of unwise decision-making that I think 138 00:07:43.501 --> 00:07:46.000 leads us to make big mistakes. 139 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.567 And ultimately, also miss out on opportunities 140 00:07:48.567 --> 00:07:49.501 elsewhere in the world. 141 00:07:49.501 --> 00:07:50.901 When you say don't do stupid stuff. 142 00:07:50.901 --> 00:07:53.300 And when you say, I rather be -- I'd like to be judged 143 00:07:53.300 --> 00:07:55.501 by what I didn't do. 144 00:07:55.501 --> 00:08:02.767 Some say that, in fact, that you're putting too much emphasis 145 00:08:02.767 --> 00:08:06.434 on what we don't do and not enough emphasis on the choices 146 00:08:06.434 --> 00:08:08.534 we might have to do. 147 00:08:08.534 --> 00:08:11.067 Yeah, and I've heard this argument and, look, 148 00:08:11.067 --> 00:08:15.200 Charlie, when we sat down together back in 2009, 149 00:08:15.200 --> 00:08:18.300 when I first came into office, we were still in the midst of 150 00:08:18.300 --> 00:08:25.100 two active wars, we had 180,000 troops that were deployed, 151 00:08:25.100 --> 00:08:30.100 we were still seeing hundreds of our young men and women killed 152 00:08:30.100 --> 00:08:33.567 and thousands injured. 153 00:08:33.567 --> 00:08:38.100 And since that time we have been able to wind down active combat 154 00:08:38.100 --> 00:08:39.934 in those two theaters. 155 00:08:39.934 --> 00:08:45.467 Those countries are by no means in great shape, but they are 156 00:08:45.467 --> 00:08:49.534 not in significantly worse shape than had we left 20, or 30, 157 00:08:49.534 --> 00:08:52.033 or 40,000 troops there. 158 00:08:52.033 --> 00:08:55.000 And diplomatically, we have been able to make sure that Iran 159 00:08:55.000 --> 00:08:57.100 doesn't have nuclear weapons. 160 00:08:57.100 --> 00:09:02.234 We have been able to at least begin the process of political 161 00:09:02.234 --> 00:09:05.400 conversations in Syria and a cessation of hostilities. 162 00:09:05.400 --> 00:09:10.501 We are, in the meantime, taking out terrorists constantly, 163 00:09:10.501 --> 00:09:14.567 so it's not as if we are passive and standing by. 164 00:09:14.567 --> 00:09:19.467 Al-Qaeda core has been dismantled, Bin Laden is dead, 165 00:09:19.467 --> 00:09:26.634 ISIL is losing territory, and, so, I've shown no hesitance 166 00:09:26.634 --> 00:09:31.667 to use our military where necessary to protect American 167 00:09:31.667 --> 00:09:37.000 lives, American interests, but what I am insisting on is making 168 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.734 sure that we think through why we're using our military, 169 00:09:41.734 --> 00:09:47.601 how we expect to shape results as a consequence of the use of 170 00:09:47.601 --> 00:09:51.100 our military, what other tools are available to us because, 171 00:09:51.100 --> 00:09:56.834 otherwise, we will have a constant repetition of the kind 172 00:09:56.834 --> 00:09:59.968 of experience that we had in Iraq in 2005, 2006. 173 00:09:59.968 --> 00:10:01.200 But let me focus on the red-line decision 174 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:03.067 that you made. 175 00:10:03.067 --> 00:10:06.501 Many look at that and say, because you did not, and you 176 00:10:06.501 --> 00:10:09.667 went over the opposition of some of your advisors which is 177 00:10:09.667 --> 00:10:13.000 what a president is expected to do, make the hard choices, 178 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:17.133 that what we have today in part because of that decision, 179 00:10:17.133 --> 00:10:22.133 we have a devastated state, we've had close to 500,000 180 00:10:22.133 --> 00:10:26.534 people die, and we've had refugees of up to 181 00:10:26.534 --> 00:10:29.400 four million people, and those -- 182 00:10:29.400 --> 00:10:30.434 Yeah, so let me respond. 183 00:10:30.434 --> 00:10:33.501 First of all, the state was devastated at the time we were 184 00:10:33.501 --> 00:10:34.734 thinking about making the decision -- 185 00:10:34.734 --> 00:10:35.567 But much worse today. 186 00:10:35.567 --> 00:10:38.434 No, no, hold on a second, Charlie, at that point 187 00:10:38.434 --> 00:10:41.167 you already had a couple hundred thousand dead, the state 188 00:10:41.167 --> 00:10:46.667 had already been shattered, and the question very narrowly, 189 00:10:46.667 --> 00:10:54.400 even among those who criticized me, was do we take a one-off, 190 00:10:54.400 --> 00:10:59.334 a pin-point strike to send a message to Assad, so that he 191 00:10:59.334 --> 00:11:02.734 would no longer use chemical weapons because the red line 192 00:11:02.734 --> 00:11:07.234 I had set was that, if you use chemical weapons, then we are 193 00:11:07.234 --> 00:11:09.934 going to make a different calculation in terms of 194 00:11:09.934 --> 00:11:11.667 how we view the conflict there. 195 00:11:11.667 --> 00:11:15.801 Now, in fact, as a consequence of the steps I took and the 196 00:11:15.801 --> 00:11:21.167 diplomacy that we engaged in, Assad removed the vast majority 197 00:11:21.167 --> 00:11:24.133 of those chemical weapons from Syria. 198 00:11:24.133 --> 00:11:27.767 There was never a claim that, had I taken military action 199 00:11:27.767 --> 00:11:31.868 because of those chemical weapons, that we would have 200 00:11:31.868 --> 00:11:35.934 resolved the civil war in Syria. 201 00:11:35.934 --> 00:11:37.767 But I want to be clear. 202 00:11:37.767 --> 00:11:41.000 I think that there are those who make the argument, Charlie, 203 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:46.701 that somehow we can change a civil war inside of Syria. 204 00:11:46.701 --> 00:11:50.300 If they are being honest, what they would have to argue is 205 00:11:50.300 --> 00:11:56.300 we would, in fact, deploy a large army to overthrow Assad. 206 00:11:56.300 --> 00:12:00.033 The notion that by sending a few missile strikes into Syria, 207 00:12:00.033 --> 00:12:04.133 that we would have resolved the Syrian conflict is simply 208 00:12:04.133 --> 00:12:06.400 not borne out by any of the subsequent facts. 209 00:12:06.400 --> 00:12:07.868 Well, beyond that, as you know, there is this 210 00:12:07.868 --> 00:12:11.000 question of red line, and if you announce a red line and 211 00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:14.701 somebody crosses the red line, that it raises questions about 212 00:12:14.701 --> 00:12:17.701 your will, your dependability, and your credibility. 213 00:12:17.701 --> 00:12:19.901 Except for the fact that we ended up removing 214 00:12:19.901 --> 00:12:23.567 those chemical weapons -- essentially, Syria caved, 215 00:12:23.567 --> 00:12:24.968 they gave in. 216 00:12:24.968 --> 00:12:28.000 With the help of the Russians, they, for the first time, 217 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.267 acknowledged that -- chemical weapons, signed up for the 218 00:12:31.267 --> 00:12:33.767 international treaty saying they would not have chemical 219 00:12:33.767 --> 00:12:36.434 weapons, and systematically removed them. 220 00:12:36.434 --> 00:12:40.133 So the notion that, even if they were willing to do what we've 221 00:12:40.133 --> 00:12:43.400 asked them to do, that we should still send a couple of 222 00:12:43.400 --> 00:12:46.234 bombs just to kill some people, so that they know 223 00:12:46.234 --> 00:12:48.067 that we're serious. 224 00:12:48.067 --> 00:12:52.234 That is precisely the kind of conventional wisdom that I think 225 00:12:52.234 --> 00:12:54.834 it's very important for me or anybody who occupies 226 00:12:54.834 --> 00:12:57.567 this office to test. 227 00:12:57.567 --> 00:13:01.033 Now, if the notion is that I have been hesitant to use 228 00:13:01.033 --> 00:13:05.868 military force, and the people doubt my willingness to do so, 229 00:13:05.868 --> 00:13:08.734 I think, as I've said before, they should ask Bin Laden. 230 00:13:08.734 --> 00:13:10.567 OK, but let me ask you the question, could we 231 00:13:10.567 --> 00:13:15.934 have done more in Syria, early on, to support the free Syrian 232 00:13:15.934 --> 00:13:20.267 army, and rebel forces, and if we had done that, and if Assad, 233 00:13:20.267 --> 00:13:23.267 perhaps, had been thrown out of power -- 234 00:13:23.267 --> 00:13:24.400 There's a lot of ifs. 235 00:13:24.400 --> 00:13:25.167 I know that. 236 00:13:25.167 --> 00:13:26.801 You understand this. 237 00:13:26.801 --> 00:13:29.868 No, no, but, Charlie, this is exactly why 238 00:13:29.868 --> 00:13:32.400 I think it is important for us to learn the right lessons 239 00:13:32.400 --> 00:13:33.501 from these decisions. 240 00:13:33.501 --> 00:13:34.133 And that's why I -- 241 00:13:34.133 --> 00:13:41.667 And the notion that somehow, had we provided 242 00:13:41.667 --> 00:13:51.167 some caches of arms to a very loose and not particularly 243 00:13:51.167 --> 00:13:54.634 well-organized opposition, that they would have been in 244 00:13:54.634 --> 00:14:00.133 a position to overthrow the Assad regime, isn't borne out 245 00:14:00.133 --> 00:14:01.701 by anything that's happened subsequently. 246 00:14:01.701 --> 00:14:05.334 Right now, there's no shortage of arms among the opposition. 247 00:14:05.334 --> 00:14:10.033 Right now -- and there hasn't been for quite some time, and 248 00:14:10.033 --> 00:14:13.501 what we saw was is that when they made progress, because of 249 00:14:13.501 --> 00:14:16.801 the support of Iran, and because of the support of Russia, 250 00:14:16.801 --> 00:14:20.467 of the Syrian regime, there was a limit to the progress they 251 00:14:20.467 --> 00:14:23.667 could make, there was not going to be a military solution. 252 00:14:23.667 --> 00:14:27.734 And so, we tend to have sometimes these fantasies about 253 00:14:27.734 --> 00:14:31.801 how the United States can go about bringing change 254 00:14:31.801 --> 00:14:32.868 in countries. 255 00:14:32.868 --> 00:14:36.400 One of the questions that I asked when we were making early 256 00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:40.601 decisions about Syria, I asked my team, I said, please provide 257 00:14:40.601 --> 00:14:46.701 me with some example somewhere of us providing some sort of 258 00:14:46.701 --> 00:14:55.501 insurgency opposition, arms, and then successfully creating 259 00:14:55.501 --> 00:15:01.434 a peaceful, functional society, and overthrowing a dictatorial 260 00:15:01.434 --> 00:15:05.067 regime that is supported by outside powers, 261 00:15:05.067 --> 00:15:08.000 and, not surprisingly, there were no such examples. 262 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:09.801 I just want to ask, are you saying that no 263 00:15:09.801 --> 00:15:13.334 leader in the Middle East has raised questions about, because 264 00:15:13.334 --> 00:15:17.567 of the principle of the thing, about how drawing a red line 265 00:15:17.567 --> 00:15:18.701 and then not doing -- 266 00:15:18.701 --> 00:15:20.167 Well, that's a different issue. 267 00:15:20.167 --> 00:15:20.801 I know it's a different issue. 268 00:15:20.801 --> 00:15:22.300 I'm talking two issues, the red line on the one hand, 269 00:15:22.300 --> 00:15:23.267 and supporting -- 270 00:15:23.267 --> 00:15:24.200 That's a different question. 271 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:24.801 -- rebel forces. 272 00:15:24.801 --> 00:15:26.400 I think there is no doubt that there are many 273 00:15:26.400 --> 00:15:28.334 in the Middle East who would have preferred me taking a shot 274 00:15:28.334 --> 00:15:29.501 at Assad. 275 00:15:29.501 --> 00:15:33.133 But the reason is not because of some abstract notions 276 00:15:33.133 --> 00:15:34.467 of red lines. 277 00:15:34.467 --> 00:15:41.801 The reason is because they view Assad as a client state of Iran, 278 00:15:41.801 --> 00:15:46.267 and their view was, and continues to be, to some extent, 279 00:15:46.267 --> 00:15:55.300 that what we should be doing is being a very clear military arm 280 00:15:55.300 --> 00:16:02.000 of an anti-Iran or anti-Assad Middle East strategy. 281 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:09.334 And, look, Iran's an adversary of ours, and if they go after 282 00:16:09.334 --> 00:16:13.667 any U.S. assets, if they are threatening us in any way, 283 00:16:13.667 --> 00:16:15.934 we will go after them, and they know that. 284 00:16:15.934 --> 00:16:21.901 Assad is a horrible leader, horrible dictator, who has 285 00:16:21.901 --> 00:16:25.033 shattered his country, and it continues to be our position 286 00:16:25.033 --> 00:16:28.200 that we need to get him out of there, but -- 287 00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:29.801 But is that a different dynamic now because 288 00:16:29.801 --> 00:16:31.567 Russia went in and supported him, 289 00:16:31.567 --> 00:16:34.400 and he's stronger now than -- 290 00:16:34.400 --> 00:16:37.267 No, no, no, he's not stronger now. 291 00:16:37.267 --> 00:16:40.901 He's -- there is been an even and flow, but keep in mind 292 00:16:40.901 --> 00:16:44.234 that Assad has been a client of Russia, 293 00:16:44.234 --> 00:16:46.033 and a client of Iran's for years. 294 00:16:46.033 --> 00:16:50.067 And, by the way, all those Arab states who now are seeking his 295 00:16:50.067 --> 00:16:53.400 overthrow, who are more than comfortable with having him in 296 00:16:53.400 --> 00:16:56.000 the Arab league, and he was a member of good standing with 297 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:00.567 them, the key for the United States is to make sure that 298 00:17:00.567 --> 00:17:05.400 we disentangle the regional interests and jockeying that's 299 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:12.601 taking place from our core interests as a country, and 300 00:17:12.601 --> 00:17:17.434 our efforts which have to be international, not just us but 301 00:17:17.434 --> 00:17:20.400 everybody, to try to relieve the human suffering that's taking 302 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.400 place in this region, and reduce the degree to which 303 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:25.634 this becomes a safe haven for terrorism. 304 00:17:25.634 --> 00:17:31.734 And the only way for us to do that is not to come in guns 305 00:17:31.734 --> 00:17:37.901 blazing and say we are going to impose militarily order in this 306 00:17:37.901 --> 00:17:41.567 massive region, where our engagement is already 307 00:17:41.567 --> 00:17:44.501 often viewed with suspicion. 308 00:17:44.501 --> 00:17:49.767 But, rather, to say we are going to insist that the various 309 00:17:49.767 --> 00:17:56.434 parties come up with a political solution that we will help, 310 00:17:56.434 --> 00:18:01.300 that, in Iraq, we will help to train and provide assistance 311 00:18:01.300 --> 00:18:04.868 so they can fight against those who would encroach on 312 00:18:04.868 --> 00:18:06.834 their territory and sovereignty. 313 00:18:06.834 --> 00:18:08.434 The same is true in Syria. 314 00:18:08.434 --> 00:18:12.667 But what we're not going to do is to duplicate the same kinds 315 00:18:12.667 --> 00:18:16.267 of mistakes that we've made in the past that did not result in 316 00:18:16.267 --> 00:18:21.501 more peace in the region, but, in fact, helped to precipitate 317 00:18:21.501 --> 00:18:22.801 some of the problems that we're dealing with today. 318 00:18:22.801 --> 00:18:24.567 But how do you convince that it would not have 319 00:18:24.567 --> 00:18:26.567 made a difference if you had done more? 320 00:18:26.567 --> 00:18:29.934 And do you ever ask yourself, if we had done more we would not 321 00:18:29.934 --> 00:18:32.701 be looking at the catastrophe we're looking at now? 322 00:18:32.701 --> 00:18:36.300 Look, Charlie, every single day 323 00:18:36.300 --> 00:18:37.234 I make decisions. 324 00:18:37.234 --> 00:18:37.834 Sure. 325 00:18:37.834 --> 00:18:44.801 And you are working with probabilities. 326 00:18:44.801 --> 00:18:50.300 So, in Libya, we did take out a dictator who was threatening 327 00:18:50.300 --> 00:18:52.200 his own people. 328 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.334 As I've said before, I actually believe that was 329 00:18:55.334 --> 00:18:56.467 the right decision. 330 00:18:56.467 --> 00:19:00.868 I think, had we not gone in, we would have seen another 331 00:19:00.868 --> 00:19:02.501 Syria in Libya. 332 00:19:02.501 --> 00:19:07.167 But Libya is still a big problem and a mess, and I think 333 00:19:07.167 --> 00:19:10.501 we did not do as good of a job as we should have. 334 00:19:10.501 --> 00:19:13.300 And I didn't do as good a job as I should have in thinking 335 00:19:13.300 --> 00:19:16.133 through the aftermath and how much work was going to be 336 00:19:16.133 --> 00:19:20.100 required in putting the pieces of that country back together 337 00:19:20.100 --> 00:19:24.467 again, and that's a much simpler proposition than in Syria. 338 00:19:24.467 --> 00:19:29.467 But nothing that's happened over the last several years leads me 339 00:19:29.467 --> 00:19:34.133 to believe that had I authorized some additional arms 340 00:19:34.133 --> 00:19:37.167 to the free Syrian army... 341 00:19:37.167 --> 00:19:38.567 That's incremental, is it not? 342 00:19:38.567 --> 00:19:39.734 I'm sorry? 343 00:19:39.734 --> 00:19:40.601 Incremental. 344 00:19:40.601 --> 00:19:41.734 What is incremental? 345 00:19:41.734 --> 00:19:44.534 Authorizing some additional arms. 346 00:19:44.534 --> 00:19:47.534 Well, but that's my point, Charlie, you can't 347 00:19:47.534 --> 00:19:50.634 have it both ways -- and I don't mean you, I mean sort -- 348 00:19:50.634 --> 00:19:53.100 some of the critics. 349 00:19:53.100 --> 00:19:53.901 Sure. 350 00:19:53.901 --> 00:19:55.901 Either you're making an argument, which is 351 00:19:55.901 --> 00:19:58.234 coherent, that we should have just invaded Syria 352 00:19:58.234 --> 00:19:59.400 and taken Assad out. 353 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.300 Now, keep in mind, that there was no basis for international 354 00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:08.701 law, Assad was not a threat to the United States, so we would 355 00:20:08.701 --> 00:20:14.200 have just been saying to ourselves that, as a matter of 356 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:18.167 policy, where we see there's a big problem in a country where 357 00:20:18.167 --> 00:20:20.801 things are really getting torn apart, then we should impose 358 00:20:20.801 --> 00:20:21.767 military order. 359 00:20:21.767 --> 00:20:25.434 Now, that's a coherent argument, but if that's what we're going 360 00:20:25.434 --> 00:20:28.300 to do, then we're going to have to figure out why Syria is 361 00:20:28.300 --> 00:20:33.501 different from the Congo, why is Syria different from Sudan. 362 00:20:33.501 --> 00:20:35.334 Why Syria is like Rwanda. 363 00:20:35.334 --> 00:20:39.400 Why -- well, no, except -- even with respect to 364 00:20:39.400 --> 00:20:44.634 Rwanda, I think it would be hard to argue that in Rwanda 365 00:20:44.634 --> 00:20:48.934 there were a whole bunch of folks who were shooting back and 366 00:20:48.934 --> 00:20:52.801 well-armed jihadists, and we hadn't just invaded and were 367 00:20:52.801 --> 00:20:56.167 still trying to hold together a country right next door. 368 00:20:56.167 --> 00:21:00.701 But my point is, though, that at least has coherence, right? 369 00:21:00.701 --> 00:21:02.968 You can make an argument that that's what we should do. 370 00:21:02.968 --> 00:21:05.901 I think that would be a bad decision for the United States 371 00:21:05.901 --> 00:21:11.133 to get into the business of unilaterally imposing 372 00:21:11.133 --> 00:21:14.601 militarily our will around the world. 373 00:21:14.601 --> 00:21:18.200 But, no, Charlie, it would have been unilateral because 374 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:20.033 nobody else would have signed up for that. 375 00:21:20.033 --> 00:21:24.767 I know that for a fact because I could not even get 376 00:21:24.767 --> 00:21:28.300 the Europeans, or I couldn't even get the U.S. Congress 377 00:21:28.300 --> 00:21:28.934 to authorize -- 378 00:21:28.934 --> 00:21:30.234 Which raises an interesting question -- 379 00:21:30.234 --> 00:21:32.634 But let me finish this thought. 380 00:21:32.634 --> 00:21:38.300 You couldn't even get those folks to support a very modest 381 00:21:38.300 --> 00:21:40.601 action, much the less a notion of an invasion, and the 382 00:21:40.601 --> 00:21:43.400 American people certainly should not have supported it, 383 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:45.000 would not have supported it. 384 00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:47.434 But at least there is coherence to the argument. 385 00:21:47.434 --> 00:21:50.100 Now, if what you're arguing is that a couple of pin-prick 386 00:21:50.100 --> 00:21:55.434 strikes and providing some arms to some opposition members 387 00:21:55.434 --> 00:22:00.567 would have led to a complete transformation of Syria, then, 388 00:22:00.567 --> 00:22:05.400 I can't say for certain, because I'm not omnipotent, but I can 389 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:09.901 say with great confidence, that would not have fundamentally 390 00:22:09.901 --> 00:22:11.334 changed the dynamic inside of Syria. 391 00:22:11.334 --> 00:22:13.400 No, really what I'm asking are this -- what 392 00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:16.801 circumstances would compel you, in a sense, to say, history 393 00:22:16.801 --> 00:22:20.767 will judge very harshly if we don't because of who we are, 394 00:22:20.767 --> 00:22:25.067 the United States of America, to do something about a situation 395 00:22:25.067 --> 00:22:28.000 creating a range of problems, destruction of a nation, 396 00:22:28.000 --> 00:22:30.667 refugees that are causing huge problems around the world. 397 00:22:30.667 --> 00:22:34.033 Men, and women, and children being killed in a devastating 398 00:22:34.033 --> 00:22:37.834 way, all of that, what's the test for you when you want to 399 00:22:37.834 --> 00:22:39.501 use American force? 400 00:22:39.501 --> 00:22:42.868 I don't think -- well, those are two 401 00:22:42.868 --> 00:22:44.467 separate questions. 402 00:22:44.467 --> 00:22:48.634 We are always prepared to use force, unilaterally if need be, 403 00:22:48.634 --> 00:22:51.534 to protect the American people, right. 404 00:22:51.534 --> 00:22:53.667 So you're asking a very narrow -- you're asking a narrow 405 00:22:53.667 --> 00:22:57.400 question, which is where should we be willing to intervene 406 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:02.601 militarily because we have a duty to protect other people, 407 00:23:02.601 --> 00:23:05.734 because things are getting chaotic and we need to impose 408 00:23:05.734 --> 00:23:07.000 order, and so forth. 409 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:12.167 And my approach is not to say we've got some perfect test 410 00:23:12.167 --> 00:23:12.934 that we can apply. 411 00:23:12.934 --> 00:23:13.667 Right. 412 00:23:13.667 --> 00:23:15.300 Each situation is different. 413 00:23:15.300 --> 00:23:18.467 The costs and the benefits of our intervention are going to be 414 00:23:18.467 --> 00:23:19.601 different each and every time. 415 00:23:19.601 --> 00:23:22.901 But I think what we can say is that, wherever possible, 416 00:23:22.901 --> 00:23:27.167 we should first and foremost try to get other countries to work 417 00:23:27.167 --> 00:23:32.400 with us to see if we can solve the problem, where the costs of 418 00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:39.400 our military intervention are manageable and the benefits 419 00:23:39.400 --> 00:23:43.434 are potentially high, then I think it makes sense. 420 00:23:43.434 --> 00:23:47.267 We saw this in, you know, the Balkans. 421 00:23:47.267 --> 00:23:48.067 Right. 422 00:23:48.067 --> 00:23:50.067 Where you have a situation -- 423 00:23:50.067 --> 00:23:52.400 Using economic power. 424 00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.868 Where you have a situation where you've got a 425 00:23:54.868 --> 00:24:00.434 much deeper structural problem and dynamics, as occur in the 426 00:24:00.434 --> 00:24:03.901 Middle East where you're seeing the kind of changes you only see 427 00:24:03.901 --> 00:24:06.033 every 50, 100 years. 428 00:24:06.033 --> 00:24:10.767 And that we have already extended ourselves greatly 429 00:24:10.767 --> 00:24:13.901 because we have already made massive commitments in Iraq and 430 00:24:13.901 --> 00:24:19.567 in Afghanistan, and where there is suspicion of U.S. motives, 431 00:24:19.567 --> 00:24:21.834 and there are other parties and players involved, 432 00:24:21.834 --> 00:24:24.167 then I think you make a different decision. 433 00:24:24.167 --> 00:24:26.667 So you look at each situation differently. 434 00:24:26.667 --> 00:24:29.200 This is part of the reason, going back full circle, 435 00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.400 to why I don't tend to label these things as doctrines. 436 00:24:32.400 --> 00:24:39.734 I think if you have some set, rigid theory by which you're 437 00:24:39.734 --> 00:24:41.934 approaching these problems, you're going to end up making 438 00:24:41.934 --> 00:24:44.033 mistakes because the world is messy and complicated. 439 00:24:44.033 --> 00:24:46.167 Let me turn to the issues that have been 440 00:24:46.167 --> 00:24:50.834 in the news recently which is the 28 pages of 441 00:24:50.834 --> 00:24:53.167 the 9/11 Commission Report. 442 00:24:53.167 --> 00:24:54.801 Have you read it? 443 00:24:54.801 --> 00:24:58.501 You know, I have a sense of what's in there, but 444 00:24:58.501 --> 00:25:04.467 this has been a process which we generally deal with through 445 00:25:04.467 --> 00:25:09.901 the intelligence community, and Jim Clapper, our director of 446 00:25:09.901 --> 00:25:14.067 National Intelligence, has been going through to make sure that 447 00:25:14.067 --> 00:25:19.701 whatever it is that is released is not going to compromise some 448 00:25:19.701 --> 00:25:24.467 major national security interest of the United States, and 449 00:25:24.467 --> 00:25:28.067 my understanding is that he is about to complete that process. 450 00:25:28.067 --> 00:25:30.968 We will get a sense from him about what is appropriate. 451 00:25:30.968 --> 00:25:32.667 I try not to -- 452 00:25:32.667 --> 00:25:33.767 I hear you. 453 00:25:33.767 --> 00:25:37.734 -- make decisions, you know, 454 00:25:37.734 --> 00:25:41.000 personally get engaged in each and every decision that's being 455 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:42.434 made about classification -- 456 00:25:42.434 --> 00:25:43.734 Bob Graham said that he talked to 457 00:25:43.734 --> 00:25:45.701 the White House, and they said they would be releasing 458 00:25:45.701 --> 00:25:49.400 those 28 pages sometime in the near future. 459 00:25:49.400 --> 00:25:50.834 Well, I'm going to wait for the recommendation 460 00:25:50.834 --> 00:25:56.000 from Jim Clapper because that's the only way in an orderly 461 00:25:56.000 --> 00:26:00.100 fashion we can make sure that we are being as open as possible 462 00:26:00.100 --> 00:26:03.400 while, at the same point, maintaining basic 463 00:26:03.400 --> 00:26:04.501 national security interests. 464 00:26:04.501 --> 00:26:06.100 As you know the 9/11 Commission Report basically 465 00:26:06.100 --> 00:26:07.734 said, we have no evidence that the Saudi government 466 00:26:07.734 --> 00:26:11.934 or prominent members of the Saudi royal family were involved 467 00:26:11.934 --> 00:26:15.734 in this, yet at the same time there this lingering notion that 468 00:26:15.734 --> 00:26:19.601 there were people on the ground in the United States that 469 00:26:19.601 --> 00:26:22.334 helped those people, and they could not have done it without. 470 00:26:22.334 --> 00:26:23.801 It seems to me, for the families, 471 00:26:23.801 --> 00:26:26.267 that's a very important thing to know. 472 00:26:26.267 --> 00:26:28.834 Look, I've met with 9/11 families repeatedly 473 00:26:28.834 --> 00:26:32.534 during my presidency, and the heartache that they're going 474 00:26:32.534 --> 00:26:35.801 through, and the insistence on understanding the truth 475 00:26:35.801 --> 00:26:41.467 and getting justice is critical. 476 00:26:41.467 --> 00:26:47.300 So this is something that I'm very sympathetic to. 477 00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:52.000 What is also true is that there are just reams of intelligence 478 00:26:52.000 --> 00:26:53.767 that are coming through constantly. 479 00:26:53.767 --> 00:26:57.767 Some of them are raw and not tested, some of them are -- 480 00:26:57.767 --> 00:26:59.501 And some of that may be in the 28 pages. 481 00:26:59.501 --> 00:27:00.901 Some of that may be in the 28 pages, 482 00:27:00.901 --> 00:27:02.067 I don't know. 483 00:27:02.067 --> 00:27:06.601 But the point is that it's important for there to be 484 00:27:06.601 --> 00:27:11.400 an orderly process where we evaluate this because what can 485 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.434 end up happening is if you just dump a whole bunch of stuff out 486 00:27:14.434 --> 00:27:18.434 there that nobody knows exactly how credible it is, 487 00:27:18.434 --> 00:27:20.901 was it verified or not, it could end up creating problems. 488 00:27:20.901 --> 00:27:22.267 But the point is, it's been a long time. 489 00:27:22.267 --> 00:27:23.033 Yeah, it has. 490 00:27:23.033 --> 00:27:24.300 It's a long time. 491 00:27:24.300 --> 00:27:26.868 That I will acknowledge, and hopefully that 492 00:27:26.868 --> 00:27:29.968 this process will come to a head fairly soon. 493 00:27:29.968 --> 00:27:32.434 And what about this legislation in the congress 494 00:27:32.434 --> 00:27:37.701 that will allow families to sue the Saudi government? 495 00:27:37.701 --> 00:27:39.400 I know the government's in different circumstances. 496 00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:39.968 Exactly. 497 00:27:39.968 --> 00:27:42.734 I'm opposed because of that second clause in your sentence 498 00:27:42.734 --> 00:27:46.133 and that is this is not just a bilateral U.S./Saudi issue. 499 00:27:46.133 --> 00:27:49.934 This is a matter of how generally the United States 500 00:27:49.934 --> 00:27:53.200 approaches our interactions with other countries. 501 00:27:53.200 --> 00:28:00.033 If we open up the possibility that individuals in the 502 00:28:00.033 --> 00:28:03.934 United States can routinely start suing other governments, 503 00:28:03.934 --> 00:28:07.467 then we are also opening up the United States to being 504 00:28:07.467 --> 00:28:12.501 continually sued by individuals in other countries, and that 505 00:28:12.501 --> 00:28:15.901 would be a bad precedent because we're the largest 506 00:28:15.901 --> 00:28:16.934 super power in the world. 507 00:28:16.934 --> 00:28:21.801 And we are everywhere and we are in people's business all 508 00:28:21.801 --> 00:28:26.334 the time and, you know, if we are in a situation where we're 509 00:28:26.334 --> 00:28:30.534 suddenly being hauled in to various courts because of the 510 00:28:30.534 --> 00:28:34.968 claim that some individual has been harmed, then that will tie 511 00:28:34.968 --> 00:28:39.734 us up and it could harm U.S. servicemen, U.S. diplomats, 512 00:28:39.734 --> 00:28:41.667 a whole bunch of stuff. 513 00:28:41.667 --> 00:28:44.801 So, as a matter of policy, this is just not something that 514 00:28:44.801 --> 00:28:47.634 we have ever done. 515 00:28:47.634 --> 00:28:51.200 This is not unique to this administration, and I think 516 00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:52.968 it's important for us to maintain that principle. 517 00:28:52.968 --> 00:28:54.567 When you walked in, I said this has been 518 00:28:54.567 --> 00:28:56.033 a very interesting news day. 519 00:28:56.033 --> 00:28:58.701 You said every day here at the White House is an interesting 520 00:28:58.701 --> 00:29:00.968 news day, but let me talk about two aspects of it. 521 00:29:00.968 --> 00:29:01.601 Sure. 522 00:29:01.601 --> 00:29:03.634 Number one, the announcement by Ash Carter about 523 00:29:03.634 --> 00:29:05.634 200 special forces going to Iraq. 524 00:29:05.634 --> 00:29:06.234 Yes. 525 00:29:06.234 --> 00:29:10.601 My question is as you've added more to that, 526 00:29:10.601 --> 00:29:14.267 and do you -- what do you think can be accomplished in the 527 00:29:14.267 --> 00:29:20.334 battle against ISIS in Iraq before your term of office ends? 528 00:29:20.334 --> 00:29:23.534 I'm thinking of the recapture of Mosul, specifically. 529 00:29:23.534 --> 00:29:25.000 Well, we've made significant progress. 530 00:29:25.000 --> 00:29:28.534 You know, talking to you and others a year ago... 531 00:29:28.534 --> 00:29:29.901 Right. 532 00:29:29.901 --> 00:29:31.767 And looking at what's happening over the course 533 00:29:31.767 --> 00:29:35.133 of this year, there was a question as to whether we'd not 534 00:29:35.133 --> 00:29:38.434 only get an Iran nuclear deal but more importantly would they 535 00:29:38.434 --> 00:29:40.567 actually start getting rid of their nuclear materials. 536 00:29:40.567 --> 00:29:41.267 Right. 537 00:29:41.267 --> 00:29:43.033 And a year later, even the head of 538 00:29:43.033 --> 00:29:46.868 the Israeli defense forces have indicated that in fact, Iran has 539 00:29:46.868 --> 00:29:52.400 abided by that deal and Iran's nuclear program has been greatly 540 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:55.200 constrained and the deal's working as it's supposed to. 541 00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:56.267 But also behavior. 542 00:29:56.267 --> 00:29:59.467 We also said that we were going to go after 543 00:29:59.467 --> 00:30:04.501 ISIL on every front and that is, in fact, what we've done. 544 00:30:04.501 --> 00:30:09.667 This is a long, hard fight as I just said last week, but what 545 00:30:09.667 --> 00:30:13.501 we've seen is they've lost territory and, as we get closer 546 00:30:13.501 --> 00:30:17.200 to Mosul in Iraq, and Raqqa in Syria, 547 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:20.400 they're two primary strongholds. 548 00:30:20.400 --> 00:30:24.601 What I've said to our Secretary of Defense and our generals is, 549 00:30:24.601 --> 00:30:29.767 let's continue to resource what works and, as we see the Iraqis 550 00:30:29.767 --> 00:30:32.267 willing to fight and gaining ground, let's make sure 551 00:30:32.267 --> 00:30:34.100 that we're providing them more support. 552 00:30:34.100 --> 00:30:36.400 We're not doing the fighting ourselves but when we provide 553 00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:39.300 training, when we provide special forces who are backing 554 00:30:39.300 --> 00:30:43.000 them up, when we are gaining intelligence, working with the 555 00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.934 coalitions that we have, what we've seen is that we can 556 00:30:45.934 --> 00:30:47.968 continually tighten the noose. 557 00:30:47.968 --> 00:30:52.667 My expectation is that by the end of the year, we will have 558 00:30:52.667 --> 00:30:57.167 created the conditions whereby Mosul will eventually fall. 559 00:30:57.167 --> 00:30:59.234 Created the conditions? 560 00:30:59.234 --> 00:31:01.901 But I don't know yet because we don't know 561 00:31:01.901 --> 00:31:05.467 what's going to be the actual situation on the ground 562 00:31:05.467 --> 00:31:07.901 as to whether something will have been launched. 563 00:31:07.901 --> 00:31:12.501 And I think it's important, and this is based on constant 564 00:31:12.501 --> 00:31:16.701 consultations with the Iraqi government and Iraqi military, 565 00:31:16.701 --> 00:31:19.334 with our own military, with our coalition members. 566 00:31:19.334 --> 00:31:21.200 What we've tried to do is let's make sure that 567 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:22.968 we're being very methodical. 568 00:31:22.968 --> 00:31:26.400 Let's make sure that across the board if we say we're going to 569 00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.868 get something done that we've done it in the right way. 570 00:31:28.868 --> 00:31:32.834 Because what we don't want is to start something and then give 571 00:31:32.834 --> 00:31:37.567 ISIL some sort of P.R. victory because they've been able to 572 00:31:37.567 --> 00:31:40.300 beat back an Iraqi force that wasn't adequately equipped. 573 00:31:40.300 --> 00:31:41.701 When you arrived in office, I think one of 574 00:31:41.701 --> 00:31:43.767 the early things you said to the CIA director is 575 00:31:43.767 --> 00:31:45.100 I want to get Osama Bin Laden. 576 00:31:45.100 --> 00:31:45.701 Yes. 577 00:31:45.701 --> 00:31:46.567 And you did. 578 00:31:46.567 --> 00:31:47.200 Yes. 579 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:48.267 I assume you feel the same way 580 00:31:48.267 --> 00:31:49.634 about Baghdadi. 581 00:31:49.634 --> 00:31:53.200 I feel the same way about the entire ISIL 582 00:31:53.200 --> 00:32:02.267 leadership structure, which is as wicked and as destructive 583 00:32:02.267 --> 00:32:04.667 as any group of individuals on this planet. 584 00:32:04.667 --> 00:32:05.534 I know you do. 585 00:32:05.534 --> 00:32:06.200 Yes. 586 00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:07.567 But you've got -- you've got Osama Bin Laden, 587 00:32:07.567 --> 00:32:09.434 Do you think you will be able to get Baghdadi 588 00:32:09.434 --> 00:32:10.968 by the end of your term? 589 00:32:10.968 --> 00:32:13.667 Because I would assume that would be very, 590 00:32:13.667 --> 00:32:15.267 very comforting for you. 591 00:32:15.267 --> 00:32:16.300 Well, you know -- 592 00:32:16.300 --> 00:32:19.567 My goal is to make sure we're doing things right, 593 00:32:19.567 --> 00:32:22.434 and we got a plan and we execute. 594 00:32:22.434 --> 00:32:25.000 You take Bin Laden as an example, I would have liked to 595 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:26.400 have gotten him the first year. 596 00:32:26.400 --> 00:32:27.133 Yes. 597 00:32:27.133 --> 00:32:28.968 But you don't have that luxury as president. 598 00:32:28.968 --> 00:32:34.834 What you have the ability to do is put and train all the pieces, 599 00:32:34.834 --> 00:32:39.200 the intelligence, military, diplomatic, and you just 600 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:40.968 keep on grinding it out. 601 00:32:40.968 --> 00:32:44.834 And one of the things about -- people always ask me what 602 00:32:44.834 --> 00:32:48.133 have you learned, what advice will you give? 603 00:32:48.133 --> 00:32:51.133 A guy with no grey hair who came into office. 604 00:32:51.133 --> 00:32:53.267 Can I tell you how many people that I talked to 605 00:32:53.267 --> 00:32:56.234 before I did this interview and the question of what has he 606 00:32:56.234 --> 00:32:59.300 learned and what is his advice for his successor 607 00:32:59.300 --> 00:33:00.801 came up all the time. 608 00:33:00.801 --> 00:33:01.400 Right. 609 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:07.701 And so, one of the things that I've learned is that the big 610 00:33:07.701 --> 00:33:11.934 breakthroughs are typically the result of just 611 00:33:11.934 --> 00:33:14.801 a lot of grunt work. 612 00:33:14.801 --> 00:33:17.300 There is a lot of just blocking and tackling. 613 00:33:17.300 --> 00:33:20.767 We have incredible members of our military and our 614 00:33:20.767 --> 00:33:26.634 intelligence, and they are just dogged, but they are putting 615 00:33:26.634 --> 00:33:30.400 together the pieces of all these things, whether it's the Iran 616 00:33:30.400 --> 00:33:33.167 nuclear deal, whether it's the breakthrough to Cuba, whether 617 00:33:33.167 --> 00:33:41.167 it is advances on something like Ebola or whether it is dealing 618 00:33:41.167 --> 00:33:44.067 with Al Qaeda and these terrorist organizations. 619 00:33:44.067 --> 00:33:47.400 What is important is making sure that you've got an organization 620 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:51.234 that has integrity, that is clear about its mission, 621 00:33:51.234 --> 00:33:54.734 that is doing things the right way and not taking short cuts, 622 00:33:54.734 --> 00:33:57.501 that you're not thinking in terms of short-term politics 623 00:33:57.501 --> 00:34:00.234 or P.R., but you're in it for the long haul. 624 00:34:00.234 --> 00:34:03.300 And when you do that then, ultimately, 625 00:34:03.300 --> 00:34:04.501 you're going to get the good outcome. 626 00:34:04.501 --> 00:34:07.200 But sometimes it's not on your timetable and that can be 627 00:34:07.200 --> 00:34:11.300 frustrating and I guarantee you it's frustrating to Josh 628 00:34:11.300 --> 00:34:15.667 Earnest, my Press Secretary and the folks who have to think 629 00:34:15.667 --> 00:34:18.400 about our politics because sometimes things don't happen 630 00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:21.133 on schedule. 631 00:34:21.133 --> 00:34:26.200 I'll give you a great example, our Ebola response was one of 632 00:34:26.200 --> 00:34:31.133 the singular, most effective international public health 633 00:34:31.133 --> 00:34:32.334 responses in history. 634 00:34:32.334 --> 00:34:36.901 The American people, through our doctors, our diplomats, our 635 00:34:36.901 --> 00:34:41.000 scientists, the CDC, we saved hundreds of thousands of lives. 636 00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:45.734 But it took about eight weeks longer 637 00:34:45.734 --> 00:34:48.634 than the news cycle that occurred. 638 00:34:48.634 --> 00:34:50.534 And so as a consequence, Americans may not fully 639 00:34:50.534 --> 00:34:54.033 appreciate what a historic, effective response that was 640 00:34:54.033 --> 00:34:59.334 because when we were seeing Ebola scares on television 641 00:34:59.334 --> 00:35:02.467 every single night, you know, things don't happen 642 00:35:02.467 --> 00:35:03.334 in two weeks. 643 00:35:03.334 --> 00:35:06.734 They happen over the course of months, and it's hard work. 644 00:35:06.734 --> 00:35:07.701 Telephone conversation today 645 00:35:07.701 --> 00:35:09.033 with President Putin. 646 00:35:09.033 --> 00:35:09.634 Yes. 647 00:35:09.634 --> 00:35:12.300 What did you agree on, is there a coming 648 00:35:12.300 --> 00:35:18.067 together in terms of ideas about peace and the ceasefire 649 00:35:18.067 --> 00:35:24.067 and who can do what to make Syria a better place? 650 00:35:24.067 --> 00:35:27.067 The cessation of hostilities has now held 651 00:35:27.067 --> 00:35:31.400 roughly for seven weeks. 652 00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:32.734 There have been a lot of breaches to it. 653 00:35:32.734 --> 00:35:34.434 It's a messy environment. 654 00:35:34.434 --> 00:35:38.133 But there's no doubt that violence has been reduced and 655 00:35:38.133 --> 00:35:41.067 that's helped people who have been caught in the crossfire. 656 00:35:41.067 --> 00:35:44.868 My call today to him was to indicate that we're starting 657 00:35:44.868 --> 00:35:47.801 to see it fray more rapidly. 658 00:35:47.801 --> 00:35:53.968 And if the United States and Russia are not in sync about 659 00:35:53.968 --> 00:35:57.601 maintaining it and getting a political track and transition 660 00:35:57.601 --> 00:36:02.467 moving, then we could be back in a situation we were three, 661 00:36:02.467 --> 00:36:07.934 four weeks ago, and that would serve neither of our interests. 662 00:36:07.934 --> 00:36:09.734 In theory, he agrees. 663 00:36:09.734 --> 00:36:13.934 Whether in practice, we'll actually see results 664 00:36:13.934 --> 00:36:19.334 as it remains to be seen. 665 00:36:19.334 --> 00:36:23.133 I think that Russia recognizes that it does not want another 666 00:36:23.133 --> 00:36:27.601 Afghanistan, where they are continually spending money 667 00:36:27.601 --> 00:36:30.834 and potentially losing lives, trying to prop up -- 668 00:36:30.834 --> 00:36:32.167 And lost the war. 669 00:36:32.167 --> 00:36:34.133 -- an Assad regime. 670 00:36:34.133 --> 00:36:38.701 But I think they are also very much committed to maintaining 671 00:36:38.701 --> 00:36:41.634 the structure of the Syrian state which, in theory, 672 00:36:41.634 --> 00:36:42.734 we don't object to either. 673 00:36:42.734 --> 00:36:46.434 Where we have continually butted heads -- and this has been true 674 00:36:46.434 --> 00:36:55.868 for six years now, is his insistence that he cannot back 675 00:36:55.868 --> 00:36:59.400 unilaterally the removal of Assad, that that's a decision 676 00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:01.968 that Assad and the Syrians have to make. 677 00:37:01.968 --> 00:37:04.000 But he said that to me, too, in two forums 678 00:37:04.000 --> 00:37:04.801 I've had with him. 679 00:37:04.801 --> 00:37:05.601 Right. 680 00:37:05.601 --> 00:37:06.267 That very thing. 681 00:37:06.267 --> 00:37:06.868 Right. 682 00:37:06.868 --> 00:37:08.601 But my impression is that he's not 683 00:37:08.601 --> 00:37:13.267 committed to Assad, he's just committed to a reasonable 684 00:37:13.267 --> 00:37:17.100 government in Syria, as he defines it and as you define it. 685 00:37:17.100 --> 00:37:20.567 And that's where there is a potential 686 00:37:20.567 --> 00:37:23.067 overlap in interests. 687 00:37:23.067 --> 00:37:28.200 Now, the challenge is that he's not the only person 688 00:37:28.200 --> 00:37:30.334 making the decisions. 689 00:37:30.334 --> 00:37:32.767 Assad himself has something to say about it and the Iranians 690 00:37:32.767 --> 00:37:34.000 have something to say about it. 691 00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:36.701 And do the Iranians interest in Syria 692 00:37:36.701 --> 00:37:39.901 and the Russian interests in Syria differ? 693 00:37:39.901 --> 00:37:41.667 They don't perfectly overlap. 694 00:37:41.667 --> 00:37:46.467 They largely overlap, but the Iranians are concerned about 695 00:37:46.467 --> 00:37:53.801 maintaining their connection to Hezbollah in Lebanon, they see 696 00:37:53.801 --> 00:38:00.133 Syria as a vital mechanism whereby Hezbollah retains 697 00:38:00.133 --> 00:38:01.934 its influence in Lebanon. 698 00:38:01.934 --> 00:38:05.334 The Russians may be less concerned about that. 699 00:38:05.334 --> 00:38:10.801 The Russians share, I think, as much of a concern about ISIL and 700 00:38:10.801 --> 00:38:13.601 Nusra and other organizations because they've got a whole lot 701 00:38:13.601 --> 00:38:18.234 of Muslims in Russia who get radicalized and may be 702 00:38:18.234 --> 00:38:20.868 traveling back and forth through Syria. 703 00:38:20.868 --> 00:38:24.834 So, there is the potential for a convergence of interests, 704 00:38:24.834 --> 00:38:27.701 but it has not yet been realized. 705 00:38:27.701 --> 00:38:29.467 The other thing we talked about was Ukraine. 706 00:38:29.467 --> 00:38:29.968 Yes. 707 00:38:29.968 --> 00:38:33.133 And these are the two areas that have put an 708 00:38:33.133 --> 00:38:36.534 enormous strain on U.S./Russia relations, and what I've said 709 00:38:36.534 --> 00:38:39.567 to Putin before and I will continue to say to him as long 710 00:38:39.567 --> 00:38:44.567 as I'm president, is that we cannot ratify Russian 711 00:38:44.567 --> 00:38:51.334 aggression in Eastern Ukraine, but that there is an opportunity 712 00:38:51.334 --> 00:38:55.033 through the Minsk process to resolve this peacefully. 713 00:38:55.033 --> 00:39:00.734 And if in fact, we can resolve that piece of business, then 714 00:39:00.734 --> 00:39:04.767 that clears out a lot of the underbrush and suspicion 715 00:39:04.767 --> 00:39:06.767 and tension that's existed between the United States and 716 00:39:06.767 --> 00:39:13.133 Russia, that would allow us to concentrate our efforts more on 717 00:39:13.133 --> 00:39:15.634 what's happening in Syria and what is happening 718 00:39:15.634 --> 00:39:16.968 around the world as well. 719 00:39:16.968 --> 00:39:18.267 But do you consider Ukraine part of 720 00:39:18.267 --> 00:39:19.901 the Russian sphere of influence? 721 00:39:19.901 --> 00:39:23.000 You know, I don't believe that any country, 722 00:39:23.000 --> 00:39:30.601 any sovereign country should be subject in 18th century or 19th 723 00:39:30.601 --> 00:39:34.234 century terms to being a vassal state of somebody else's. 724 00:39:34.234 --> 00:39:37.968 Do I think that there is a deep, historical link between 725 00:39:37.968 --> 00:39:39.868 Russia and Ukraine? 726 00:39:39.868 --> 00:39:40.601 Absolutely. 727 00:39:40.601 --> 00:39:41.934 Do I think that Russia is going to have some influence 728 00:39:41.934 --> 00:39:43.934 on what happens in Ukraine? 729 00:39:43.934 --> 00:39:45.033 Of course. 730 00:39:45.033 --> 00:39:48.067 The same way that we have influence over Canada or Mexico 731 00:39:48.067 --> 00:39:49.467 and they have an influence over us. 732 00:39:49.467 --> 00:39:52.167 But there is a difference between that and them 733 00:39:52.167 --> 00:39:56.968 financing heavy weaponry that goes in and carves off 734 00:39:56.968 --> 00:39:58.734 big chunks of another country. 735 00:39:58.734 --> 00:40:02.334 So, what I've said to him is, if we can get that resolved, 736 00:40:02.334 --> 00:40:06.934 then there is the opportunity for the United States and Russia 737 00:40:06.934 --> 00:40:09.634 to concentrate on those areas where we have common interests. 738 00:40:09.634 --> 00:40:11.601 There are going to be some fundamental differences between 739 00:40:11.601 --> 00:40:14.601 the United States and Russia and between me and Putin. 740 00:40:14.601 --> 00:40:18.067 We are different -- we have different values and different 741 00:40:18.067 --> 00:40:21.701 interests, but we do have the opportunity, I think, 742 00:40:21.701 --> 00:40:25.634 to solve some big pieces of business. 743 00:40:25.634 --> 00:40:31.434 Ukraine is an ongoing source of significant tension, 744 00:40:31.434 --> 00:40:33.501 not just between us and the Russians but also between 745 00:40:33.501 --> 00:40:34.567 the Europeans and the Russians. 746 00:40:34.567 --> 00:40:36.334 I hear optimism in your voice. 747 00:40:36.334 --> 00:40:38.534 I think there is a chance of it getting done. 748 00:40:38.534 --> 00:40:44.767 But, look, Mr. Putin and I, when we have conversations, 749 00:40:44.767 --> 00:40:50.567 they tend to be businesslike and courteous and rational, 750 00:40:50.567 --> 00:40:54.667 but the actions don't always match up with the words. 751 00:40:54.667 --> 00:40:55.434 Has he -- 752 00:40:55.434 --> 00:40:57.200 And so, my hope is that here's a situation 753 00:40:57.200 --> 00:40:58.601 where they will. 754 00:40:58.601 --> 00:41:01.567 Has Russia emerged as a global player? 755 00:41:01.567 --> 00:41:03.400 Well, Russia never stopped being a global 756 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:10.334 player, but I think that what is true is that Mr. Putin has 757 00:41:10.334 --> 00:41:16.667 made the use of Russian military and a willingness to 758 00:41:16.667 --> 00:41:21.400 extend themselves, to protect their equities more of 759 00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:27.701 a priority than they had prior to him getting back in office 760 00:41:27.701 --> 00:41:28.934 as the president. 761 00:41:28.934 --> 00:41:32.934 One thing that I always try to remind people, though, is that 762 00:41:32.934 --> 00:41:40.334 the fact that Russia had to intervene militarily in Ukraine, 763 00:41:40.334 --> 00:41:43.501 the fact that Russia has had to spend billions of dollars 764 00:41:43.501 --> 00:41:48.968 sending military support to Syria, that's not a sign of 765 00:41:48.968 --> 00:41:52.200 Russian strength, it's a sign of Russian weakness. 766 00:41:52.200 --> 00:41:58.167 These were states that, up until recently, they had control over 767 00:41:58.167 --> 00:41:59.968 without having to send weapons. 768 00:41:59.968 --> 00:42:00.701 But he -- 769 00:42:00.701 --> 00:42:06.100 And -- look, our influence is not based on us 770 00:42:06.100 --> 00:42:10.334 killing and muscling folks in order to cooperate with us. 771 00:42:10.334 --> 00:42:13.467 They cooperate with us because they see that their interests 772 00:42:13.467 --> 00:42:15.701 are best served by working with us. 773 00:42:15.701 --> 00:42:19.133 That's why we have all these alliances around the world. 774 00:42:19.133 --> 00:42:23.300 That's why we are a super power. 775 00:42:23.300 --> 00:42:27.033 The fact that we are very strong and have an extraordinarily 776 00:42:27.033 --> 00:42:31.634 effective military is obviously underpins a lot of what we do, 777 00:42:31.634 --> 00:42:34.200 just as the fact that we have the world's largest economy, 778 00:42:34.200 --> 00:42:40.534 and the fact that we have, you know, this incredible diplomatic 779 00:42:40.534 --> 00:42:42.601 apparatus, all those things make a difference. 780 00:42:42.601 --> 00:42:47.801 But ultimately, the best kind of power is the power that people 781 00:42:47.801 --> 00:42:53.534 consent to, that they say, we care about the United States and 782 00:42:53.534 --> 00:42:56.767 want to work with them because we actually think that when we 783 00:42:56.767 --> 00:42:58.968 work with the United States, they help meet our interests. 784 00:42:58.968 --> 00:43:00.033 And they admire our values. 785 00:43:00.033 --> 00:43:00.868 And they admire our values. 786 00:43:00.868 --> 00:43:01.701 OK, two questions. 787 00:43:01.701 --> 00:43:02.801 Last ones. 788 00:43:02.801 --> 00:43:04.033 Yes, two last questions. 789 00:43:04.033 --> 00:43:10.200 One, what good has come out of the Iranian nuclear deal 790 00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:14.234 other than they have lived up to the provisions of the specific 791 00:43:14.234 --> 00:43:19.067 deal about eliminating nuclear facilities? 792 00:43:19.067 --> 00:43:22.634 Is there a change in behavior? 793 00:43:22.634 --> 00:43:27.968 Is there a relationship that has improved because you got 794 00:43:27.968 --> 00:43:32.801 past this nuclear deal and the drawing down of sanctions? 795 00:43:32.801 --> 00:43:36.167 Well, I'll answer your question, but I do 796 00:43:36.167 --> 00:43:45.434 want to just point out that, if you asked me what good has -- 797 00:43:45.434 --> 00:43:54.701 what good have you done by, you know, protecting your family 798 00:43:54.701 --> 00:43:58.501 and making sure that your kids can go to college other than 799 00:43:58.501 --> 00:44:01.100 they can go to college and that they're safe. 800 00:44:01.100 --> 00:44:02.701 You know, you'd sort of say, well, 801 00:44:02.701 --> 00:44:03.868 I don't understand the question. 802 00:44:03.868 --> 00:44:05.267 No, I'm trying to be generous about this. 803 00:44:05.267 --> 00:44:06.100 No, no, but I guess... 804 00:44:06.100 --> 00:44:07.400 I would be generous about saying because 805 00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:09.834 they don't have this merit on its own, but beyond that, 806 00:44:09.834 --> 00:44:11.033 is there something else? 807 00:44:11.033 --> 00:44:12.601 I guess that's my point, right? 808 00:44:12.601 --> 00:44:14.634 The whole point of the deal was the deal. 809 00:44:14.634 --> 00:44:15.133 Yes. 810 00:44:15.133 --> 00:44:17.868 And making sure -- hold on a second. 811 00:44:17.868 --> 00:44:21.133 Just making sure that Iran didn't have a nuclear weapon. 812 00:44:21.133 --> 00:44:21.701 Right. 813 00:44:21.701 --> 00:44:22.667 Which -- 814 00:44:22.667 --> 00:44:23.267 Is important. 815 00:44:23.267 --> 00:44:24.534 Well, wasn't just important. 816 00:44:24.534 --> 00:44:29.234 I mean, according to -- many of my opponents when I ran for the 817 00:44:29.234 --> 00:44:35.067 presidency, according to Prime Minister Netanyahu and many 818 00:44:35.067 --> 00:44:37.934 in the Gulf who oftentimes have been my critics, 819 00:44:37.934 --> 00:44:39.534 this was the single most important thing. 820 00:44:39.534 --> 00:44:40.100 Right. 821 00:44:40.100 --> 00:44:41.934 And now that it's been accomplished suddenly 822 00:44:41.934 --> 00:44:43.934 everybody's, like, yes, what have you done for me lately? 823 00:44:43.934 --> 00:44:45.000 Yes. 824 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:46.868 They have to change their behavior. 825 00:44:46.868 --> 00:44:48.200 I tell you, it was a pretty big deal 826 00:44:48.200 --> 00:44:49.567 making sure that they don't have a nuclear weapon. 827 00:44:49.567 --> 00:44:50.400 We give you that. 828 00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:51.033 OK. 829 00:44:51.033 --> 00:44:53.267 So, now that that's been established. 830 00:44:53.267 --> 00:44:55.000 Yes, sir, you've done that. 831 00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.801 Look, I think that beyond that what we've done 832 00:44:59.801 --> 00:45:01.934 is we've created a conversation inside of Iran. 833 00:45:01.934 --> 00:45:02.634 Right. 834 00:45:02.634 --> 00:45:05.400 How that conversation plays out, 835 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:06.968 I don't know. 836 00:45:06.968 --> 00:45:10.467 And I always said that we would not do this deal premised 837 00:45:10.467 --> 00:45:12.501 on the notion that this transforms Iraq. 838 00:45:12.501 --> 00:45:13.601 Absolutely. 839 00:45:13.601 --> 00:45:14.701 There is -- 840 00:45:14.701 --> 00:45:15.767 But you hope it does. 841 00:45:15.767 --> 00:45:18.901 There is no doubt that there is a 842 00:45:18.901 --> 00:45:21.567 conversation inside of Iran between hardliners who want to 843 00:45:21.567 --> 00:45:25.934 preserve the old ways and those who want to open up 844 00:45:25.934 --> 00:45:27.300 to the world. 845 00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:33.734 This deal is a proof point potentially for those who want 846 00:45:33.734 --> 00:45:36.033 to open up to the world, which is why it's been resisted by 847 00:45:36.033 --> 00:45:40.434 the hardliners in Iran, and we're going to have to see 848 00:45:40.434 --> 00:45:42.000 who wins that argument. 849 00:45:42.000 --> 00:45:44.968 I think it is important for us to abide by our end of the deal, 850 00:45:44.968 --> 00:45:49.100 to make sure that Iran sees some benefit from the deal. 851 00:45:49.100 --> 00:45:53.334 In the meantime, we are going to continue to be very vigilant 852 00:45:53.334 --> 00:45:56.801 in monitoring those activities in terms of sponsoring 853 00:45:56.801 --> 00:46:00.868 terrorism or provocative activity outside of the region. 854 00:46:00.868 --> 00:46:04.501 We are continually concerned about the ballistic missile 855 00:46:04.501 --> 00:46:08.033 tests and other military actions that they may take. 856 00:46:08.033 --> 00:46:12.901 But the fact that there is that argument and that there is 857 00:46:12.901 --> 00:46:15.067 a channel between the United States and Iran for the first 858 00:46:15.067 --> 00:46:19.567 time since 1979, I think that is significant. 859 00:46:19.567 --> 00:46:23.100 It provides a possibility of additional changes in behaviors. 860 00:46:23.100 --> 00:46:26.968 In that sense, it's not perfectly analogous 861 00:46:26.968 --> 00:46:29.934 but similar to my trip to Cuba. 862 00:46:29.934 --> 00:46:32.701 Do I think that Cuba is going to change overnight? 863 00:46:32.701 --> 00:46:33.634 No. 864 00:46:33.634 --> 00:46:40.300 But do I think there is now a conversation in Cuba about how 865 00:46:40.300 --> 00:46:43.400 their society is organized, how their economy is organized and 866 00:46:43.400 --> 00:46:46.767 what their relationship should be with the outside world, and 867 00:46:46.767 --> 00:46:53.400 have we taken away an argument for not changing inside of Cuba? 868 00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:54.801 Absolutely. 869 00:46:54.801 --> 00:47:00.267 And this is part of going back to the question about 870 00:47:00.267 --> 00:47:01.701 an Obama Doctrine. 871 00:47:01.701 --> 00:47:07.300 Again, I don't subscribe to a single doctrine. 872 00:47:07.300 --> 00:47:15.868 What I do believe in is that the most powerful tools we have 873 00:47:15.868 --> 00:47:20.000 oftentimes in many of these situations are the power of 874 00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.934 our example, our economy, our culture, our values. 875 00:47:23.934 --> 00:47:29.133 And the fact that this internet-driven, 876 00:47:29.133 --> 00:47:32.467 innovation-driven, technologically-driven world 877 00:47:32.467 --> 00:47:37.200 that we live in is really our brain child, it's our creation. 878 00:47:37.200 --> 00:47:45.400 And so, if we can continue to create more space for people 879 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:49.667 to see the benefits of that, that's not going to guarantee 880 00:47:49.667 --> 00:47:52.000 peace and prosperity and an end to violence and war, 881 00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:53.133 but it can make a big difference. 882 00:47:53.133 --> 00:47:54.567 It's a fascinating model. 883 00:47:54.567 --> 00:47:58.300 You have said more than one time that we are the strongest 884 00:47:58.300 --> 00:48:01.601 military, we have the best economy, you've mentioned 885 00:48:01.601 --> 00:48:06.133 the culture, you look at the technological advantage 886 00:48:06.133 --> 00:48:06.767 we have... 887 00:48:06.767 --> 00:48:07.334 Right. 888 00:48:07.334 --> 00:48:09.534 ... and all of that -- America should own 889 00:48:09.534 --> 00:48:11.667 the 21st century, your words. 890 00:48:11.667 --> 00:48:12.601 Yeah. 891 00:48:12.601 --> 00:48:14.334 What could stop us? 892 00:48:14.334 --> 00:48:15.701 Well, a couple of things could stop us. 893 00:48:15.701 --> 00:48:20.200 Number one is if our political system continues 894 00:48:20.200 --> 00:48:22.801 to be dysfunctional. 895 00:48:22.801 --> 00:48:28.267 It's fascinating the degree to which the single most important 896 00:48:28.267 --> 00:48:31.400 question I'm asked these days from other world leaders is, 897 00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:32.767 what's going on with your elections? 898 00:48:32.767 --> 00:48:35.100 I was just in China, same thing. 899 00:48:35.100 --> 00:48:39.968 So, I think that -- but in some ways, the current 900 00:48:39.968 --> 00:48:45.300 presidential election just is the tip of a broader iceberg 901 00:48:45.300 --> 00:48:46.868 of dysfunction that we've seen. 902 00:48:46.868 --> 00:48:49.868 Congress threatening the full faith and credit of the 903 00:48:49.868 --> 00:48:55.534 United States because they want to overturn ObamaCare, or, 904 00:48:55.534 --> 00:48:59.434 you know, our inability to make basic investments in 905 00:48:59.434 --> 00:49:04.467 infrastructure which are part of what's made us such this -- 906 00:49:04.467 --> 00:49:06.234 such an incredible economic engine. 907 00:49:06.234 --> 00:49:10.434 There are basic things that we know if we do put us in a 908 00:49:10.434 --> 00:49:15.734 stronger position and, if we're not doing them, then it's not 909 00:49:15.734 --> 00:49:17.701 because of some technological issue, 910 00:49:17.701 --> 00:49:18.834 it's because of our politics. 911 00:49:18.834 --> 00:49:20.133 Why can't we fix our politics? 912 00:49:20.133 --> 00:49:23.000 Well, that's probably for part two of 913 00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:25.601 the interview because that's going to take us a long time. 914 00:49:25.601 --> 00:49:26.567 Yes. 915 00:49:26.567 --> 00:49:28.267 The other thing that could threaten our position 916 00:49:28.267 --> 00:49:36.501 internationally is, I think, an unwillingness 917 00:49:36.501 --> 00:49:38.601 to engage in the world. 918 00:49:38.601 --> 00:49:40.801 Part of what you're seeing right now in some of the 919 00:49:40.801 --> 00:49:45.400 presidential debates is the notion of we engage only to 920 00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:48.801 blow somebody up or to build a wall to keep people out. 921 00:49:48.801 --> 00:49:57.100 But beyond that, worrying about foreign aid, trying to create 922 00:49:57.100 --> 00:50:03.767 a fair trading system with other countries, trying to lift other 923 00:50:03.767 --> 00:50:06.767 continents out of poverty or electrify them, you know, 924 00:50:06.767 --> 00:50:12.133 that's all a waste of time and we should be just focused on us. 925 00:50:12.133 --> 00:50:15.133 And that, by the way, gets some traction both in democratic and 926 00:50:15.133 --> 00:50:19.934 republican circles, and part of what I think we have to realize 927 00:50:19.934 --> 00:50:24.400 is the choice is not between us going around invading everybody 928 00:50:24.400 --> 00:50:27.601 and being the world's policeman or just pulling back 929 00:50:27.601 --> 00:50:32.634 and withdrawing from the world. 930 00:50:32.634 --> 00:50:38.400 The key is for us to recognize that we've built this 931 00:50:38.400 --> 00:50:41.167 international order with the help of our allies. 932 00:50:41.167 --> 00:50:44.100 It has to be nurtured, it has to be tended. 933 00:50:44.100 --> 00:50:48.934 There are times when military interventions are required to 934 00:50:48.934 --> 00:50:55.200 support it, but more often it is us being willing to organize 935 00:50:55.200 --> 00:51:00.434 trade deals like the trans- Pacific partnership that prevent 936 00:51:00.434 --> 00:51:03.234 China from imposing its rules throughout the fastest growing 937 00:51:03.234 --> 00:51:04.100 region in the world. 938 00:51:04.100 --> 00:51:07.534 More often, it is helping on Ebola so that the continent of 939 00:51:07.534 --> 00:51:10.400 Africa sees the benefits of working with the United States 940 00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:13.267 and those diseases don't end up spreading here, 941 00:51:13.267 --> 00:51:15.567 now Zika coming out of South America. 942 00:51:15.567 --> 00:51:19.133 More often, it has to do with us organizing the Paris framework 943 00:51:19.133 --> 00:51:20.434 for climate change. 944 00:51:20.434 --> 00:51:23.334 Because it turns out that the atmosphere doesn't have any 945 00:51:23.334 --> 00:51:29.167 borders and if the oceans rise anywhere, eventually Miami and 946 00:51:29.167 --> 00:51:33.267 New York and the West Coast and my home State of Hawaii 947 00:51:33.267 --> 00:51:35.267 are all affected. 948 00:51:35.267 --> 00:51:38.267 You know, that's the kind of engagement that we need. 949 00:51:38.267 --> 00:51:41.467 And I think that we will be doing ourselves a great 950 00:51:41.467 --> 00:51:49.133 disservice if we define our leadership too narrowly as just 951 00:51:49.133 --> 00:51:54.868 military or if we abdicate that leadership and discount 952 00:51:54.868 --> 00:51:56.334 the role that we play. 953 00:51:56.334 --> 00:51:57.868 Or if we don't rise to the challenge when 954 00:51:57.868 --> 00:52:01.300 we are really challenged in a way that goes to the heart 955 00:52:01.300 --> 00:52:02.634 of who we are. 956 00:52:02.634 --> 00:52:03.534 That's exactly right. 957 00:52:03.534 --> 00:52:04.567 So, thank you, Charlie. 958 00:52:04.567 --> 00:52:05.868 Thank you, Mr. President, a pleasure. 959 00:52:05.868 --> 00:52:13.968 I appreciate it.