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Jack Lang and David Steinberg, next.

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Jack Lang is here.

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He is a member of the French Socialist Party and was one of

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Segolene Royal's top advisors during her

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campaign for the presidency.

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On June 17th he was re-elected in the parliamentary elections

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of the district of Bouillon.

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He is best known as a former culture minister in the 1980s,

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and education minister in the 1990s.

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This week he is in New York to launch the Make Music New York

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day long festival.

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I am pleased to have him here at

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this table. Welcome.

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Many people believe that Sarkozy represents

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dramatic change for France.

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What do you think he represents?

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Not really.

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It is a change, but it's not a dramatic change.

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Sarkozy is a perfect expression of the - of the

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right wing in France.

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His temper is a very active one.

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He brings to the political system a new energy, a new

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vision of the political system.

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But it's not a dramatic situation.

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What is the new vision of the political system?

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The new vision is, first, that he will realize what

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he has promised.

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Namely, his economic and social policy.

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He's a conservative.

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He has an economic vision (ph) not very far from the vision of

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Bush and Reagan.

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But in the same time, he has a modern

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conception of the society.

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He wants to open the country to the new generations.

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And I am obliged to say that his government expressed the

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French diversity  --

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Yes.

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-- the diversity also of talents.

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And he has a sort of audace - how do you say - a sort of

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intrepidity  --

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Yes.

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Yes.

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He's chosen young people.

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He's chosen people coming from the immigration.

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Yes.

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And I must recognize that it is really a change.

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You congratulate him on his  --

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For this  --

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-- governance.

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Not for the government but for the choice of

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some people --

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For the cabinet.

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Yes.

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Half of them are women.

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Yes -- no, he has not succeeded.

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It's only 40 percent.

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But it's a progress.

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His foreign minister is a Socialist?

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He is a Socialist.

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A special Socialist, if you want.

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He is -- I know him very well, he is a friend.

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He's a friend.

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Yeah.

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It wasn't -- in the past, he was not very purely

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(ph) integrated in the Socialist

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Party for many reasons.

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He's a free man.

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He is an original man.

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He doesn't represent the Socialist

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Party inside the government.

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It's obvious.

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But he brings its own temper, its own

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character, its own vision.

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Do you believe Sarkozy, with the majority he

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has in the National Assembly, will be able to carry out the

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reforms he wants to carry out?

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It will not be easy, because the French

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society has . .

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.

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What -- the French society what?

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Well, yes, the structures, the history, the

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traditions, the strong tradition of resistance.

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And if he wants to realize too rapidly his program, he will

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have many difficulties.

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What is it he represents that you

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think is not appropriate?

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He wants to end the 35-hour week, in terms of allowing

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people who want to work more than 35 hours to

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be able to do so.

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Yes.

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But you know, if we speak about this question, the proposal --

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the proposal of Sarkozy is not a good one.

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You know, what he proposes is this -- it is to abolish taxes

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on supplementary  --

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Yes supplementary.

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-- supplementary hours of work.

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You understand what I'm saying?

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Yes. Yes.

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You can work extra hour without paying taxes.

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Yes.

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Additional taxes.

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Yes.

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And I think it's very - it's very generous.

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First, it will cost much more the public treasury.

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But it is an incentive to work more.

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Yes, to work more for people who have a job.

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But it will - it will be very bad, very bad for people who has

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no job.

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The French problem is underemployment of many people.

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You know, a company will prefer to give supplementary hours --

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Yes, than hire new employees.

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Yes, it's obvious.

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But it seems that according to polls, that the

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French people wanted to change the 35-hour workweek, correct?

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It is complex.

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It is not a clear way.

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He also talks about a word that he didn't use

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in the campaign, a rupture.

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That the French social system needs to be changed, ruptured.

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Yes, it depends of the way, yes, if necessary  --

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Too much state.

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It's not the question of too much state.

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Too much -- too much rigid structures, too much inequities.

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Too much control from the top.

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No, too much absurd rules.

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You know, for instance, I take an example.

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The taxes on the work are too high.

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But you have different way to how do you say - to  --

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Yeah.

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To bring them down.

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To bring them -- the way of Sarkozy is

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to decide to . .

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.

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Oh, no, no.

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The way for him is to decide to do what with taxes?

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No, he wants to augmentez les teviars (ph).

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It's going to be new taxes.

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New taxes?

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Yes.

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Raise the  --

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No, his way is to introduce

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new taxes to (inaudible).

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It is said he is very pro-American.

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You consider we have finished on the  --

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Yes, yes, we'll skip.

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Unless - unless - we could -- I will help you.

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I want to resume.

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Make the point about taxes.

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Some -- some questions, some economical

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questions which are put by Sarkozy are not bad questions,

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but the way he has chosen could be dangerous for the social

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equilibrium of the society.

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And I am not sure it will be good for the health of our

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public treasury.

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Do you believe that France

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was doing OK economically?

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Not bad.

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It's a rich country.

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Not as good as  --

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No, France is a rich country.

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We have many possibilities, many investments.

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But the main question, the main question of the French economy

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is not -- is a question of the - of the -- we

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have to, in France,

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you understand, in France, our economic and industrial system,

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we have to invest much money private and public money in

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scientific research.

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Scientific research?

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Scientific - scientific research, excuse me.

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In new technology.

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It is very, very important.

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It is the main problem of the French economy, the health of

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our industries, of our companies.

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They have to invest much more in the future.

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What will be the incentive?

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The incentive -- first, our public budget are --

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is not sufficient.

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And when you compare, with unity (ph) state, contrary to the

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common idea here in your country, the public investment

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in scientific research are -- is very high.

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Yes.

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If you introduce monetary (ph) research in

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France, it's too weak.

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And we have to make an effort.

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And we have also to make an effort

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through private investment.

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Do you understand what I say?

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I do.

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I do.

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On foreign policy  --

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Yes.

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He is clearly -- strongly believes in Europe.

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He's opposed to Turkey coming into the European Union.

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Probably will change.

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He'll change.

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He's pro-American.

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He - all the French are pro-American.

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All the French people have a friendship for America.

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Yes.

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The question is do we approve the decisions of the

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present American administration.

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Having to do with the war.

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Yes.

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The question of Iraq.

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Yes.

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I think it was not so  --

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He was against the war.

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He was --

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Sarkozy.

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-- weakly against the war.

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And my friend Kouchner  --

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Kouchner  --

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I like him.

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-- was in favor of the war.

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-- was in favor of the war.

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You see the complexity of the French situation.

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But friends of yours, intellectuals, were also

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in some cases in favor of the war.

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Yes.

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But we, the majority of people  --

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Yes.

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-- were against the war.

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Chirac was against the war.

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I was against the war, and I think it was a mistake to  --

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Yeah.

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But has France moved beyond that in terms of its

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attitude about America?

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Yes, you know, deeply we have  --

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The government.

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Yes.

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The government, yes, but deeply, the majority of people, the

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French people, the French parties have a great admiration

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for America, for the United States.

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We agree to certain policies, for instance, the Bush policy

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concerning the protection of environment  --

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Environment.

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Environment.

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And we observe that today -- I'm very happy of this -- we

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observe that today about this question of rechauffement

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climatique  --

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Yes.

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Climate warming.

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Many people, I mean, good people

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in the United States

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are making a struggle -- Bloomberg, Schwarzenegger, Al

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Gore and other people.

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Bush now is a little isolated, and it's a

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good thing for humanity.

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Yes.

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And I think that the next month, there will be many

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progress and many, how you say, many possibility of agreement

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between America and Europe about this question.

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In fact, Mr. Sarkozy, President Sarkozy

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is going to meet with Governor Schwarzenegger on June 24th,

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this month.

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Yes.

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He will see him at the end of the week in Paris.

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In Paris.

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Yes.

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And Mr. Schwarzenegger has sometimes excellent ideas.

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Especially on the environment.

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Exactly.

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California is leading the country.

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Exactly, and very important for the world and very

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important for California.

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Very important for the United States.

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What do you define in terms of these two states,

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France and the United States, other than the war, which is

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unpopular here as well?

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Yes. Now.

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As the basic difference in America and

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France, other than power -- military power, economic power.

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In terms of the society, in terms of the attitude?

274
00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:39.701
First, America is a deep and real democracy.

275
00:13:39.701 --> 00:13:44.801
And I consider that we have many progress to do to change

276
00:13:44.801 --> 00:13:48.868
the French democratic system.

277
00:13:48.868 --> 00:13:52.567
If Segolene Royal has been elected, we wanted to change

278
00:13:52.567 --> 00:13:55.767
deeply the French constitution to, you know, to

279
00:13:55.767 --> 00:13:58.467
have a real parliament.

280
00:13:58.467 --> 00:14:01.501
Our parliament has no power.

281
00:14:01.501 --> 00:14:04.734
It's not the American Congress.

282
00:14:04.734 --> 00:14:07.634
Sure.

283
00:14:07.634 --> 00:14:11.000
In order to give to citizen new life (ph).

284
00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.934
And I was interested by what Sarkozy has said yesterday

285
00:14:13.934 --> 00:14:16.567
through the French TV.

286
00:14:16.567 --> 00:14:18.934
He said that he wants also himself change the constitution.

287
00:14:18.934 --> 00:14:21.234
In what way?

288
00:14:21.234 --> 00:14:24.701
I don't know.

289
00:14:24.701 --> 00:14:28.033
I'm very curious.

290
00:14:28.033 --> 00:14:31.634
And I want to put him the question.

291
00:14:31.634 --> 00:14:34.601
And if he introduce more democracy, I will support him.

292
00:14:34.601 --> 00:14:37.334
But do you think that's what he wants to do?

293
00:14:37.334 --> 00:14:41.033
Because other people believe he likes to use power in the

294
00:14:41.033 --> 00:14:44.067
executive office.

295
00:14:44.067 --> 00:14:46.067
It's probably the way.

296
00:14:46.067 --> 00:14:48.100
But - and I am a democrat in the etymological sense  --

297
00:14:48.100 --> 00:14:50.100
Yes.

298
00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:52.100
If Sarkozy decides to open our

299
00:14:52.100 --> 00:14:54.133
system, it will be good

300
00:14:54.133 --> 00:14:56.367
for our country.

301
00:14:56.367 --> 00:14:58.334
Who will be  --

302
00:14:58.334 --> 00:15:00.334
There is (inaudible) difference between France and

303
00:15:00.334 --> 00:15:02.133
America  --

304
00:15:02.133 --> 00:15:03.701
Yes.

305
00:15:03.701 --> 00:15:05.400
-- but you have to read again de

306
00:15:05.400 --> 00:15:07.200
Tocqueville, you know.

307
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.334
Yes.

308
00:15:09.334 --> 00:15:11.200
Here, there is a sense of auto organization, the

309
00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.100
capacity of people to take initiative.

310
00:15:13.100 --> 00:15:14.934
And especially in the city of New York  --

311
00:15:14.934 --> 00:15:17.367
Yes.

312
00:15:17.367 --> 00:15:19.767
-- fabulous, the energy, the initiative of

313
00:15:19.767 --> 00:15:22.567
people, the dynamism of people.

314
00:15:22.567 --> 00:15:25.100
In France, it's a long story.

315
00:15:25.100 --> 00:15:27.934
People are waiting from state.

316
00:15:27.934 --> 00:15:31.601
But that is what Mr. Sarkozy, President Sarkozy

317
00:15:31.601 --> 00:15:34.701
says he wants to change.

318
00:15:34.701 --> 00:15:37.868
If he is able to change this tradition without

319
00:15:37.868 --> 00:15:40.567
destroying the public services, it will be a good thing for the

320
00:15:40.567 --> 00:15:43.100
- for the society.

321
00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:45.734
What happened to Mrs. Royal?

322
00:15:45.734 --> 00:15:48.267
Was she a good candidate?

323
00:15:48.267 --> 00:15:51.234
She was a good candidate.

324
00:15:51.234 --> 00:15:55.133
She was a -- she has great character.

325
00:15:55.133 --> 00:15:59.200
She has a strong energy.

326
00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:03.467
She is very, very strong.

327
00:16:03.467 --> 00:16:07.334
But I think that the campaign, not only because of her, was not

328
00:16:07.334 --> 00:16:10.767
sufficiently clear, sufficiently concrete,

329
00:16:10.767 --> 00:16:13.834
sufficiently coherent, I would say, sufficiently -- and  --

330
00:16:13.834 --> 00:16:16.267
What - excuse me.

331
00:16:16.267 --> 00:16:18.701
Excuse me.

332
00:16:18.701 --> 00:16:21.133
Excuse me.

333
00:16:21.133 --> 00:16:23.534
When a campaign is not

334
00:16:23.534 --> 00:16:28.968
clear, it's the candidate's responsibility.

335
00:16:28.968 --> 00:16:31.901
You can't blame the advisors.

336
00:16:31.901 --> 00:16:35.300
You can't blame you or the other, quote, "elephants."

337
00:16:35.300 --> 00:16:38.501
Yes.

338
00:16:38.501 --> 00:16:41.400
It's the candidate.

339
00:16:41.400 --> 00:16:44.067
Sarkozy made his campaign, not his campaign manager, not

340
00:16:44.067 --> 00:16:51.334
Mr. Fillon, Sarkozy. Yes?

341
00:16:51.334 --> 00:16:54.901
Yes.

342
00:16:54.901 --> 00:16:58.634
Mr. Sarkozy has prepared very well his campaign

343
00:16:58.634 --> 00:17:03.067
during five years.

344
00:17:03.067 --> 00:17:08.467
And his strategy was excellent, very professional.

345
00:17:08.467 --> 00:17:13.133
And very long prepared, very thoroughly prepared.

346
00:17:13.133 --> 00:17:18.767
Segolene Royal has been chosen as candidate in the last month,

347
00:17:18.767 --> 00:17:24.367
and probably the time was too short to be completely able to

348
00:17:24.367 --> 00:17:29.367
win against Sarkozy.

349
00:17:29.367 --> 00:17:33.367
Many people are amazed that Mr. arkozy, who was

350
00:17:33.367 --> 00:17:37.000
part of the Chirac government, finance minister, interior

351
00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:40.000
minister, he was of the government.

352
00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:43.133
No --

353
00:17:43.133 --> 00:17:46.334
The government was very unpopular.

354
00:17:46.334 --> 00:17:49.000
It's true.

355
00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.934
And yet he becomes the man of change.

356
00:17:51.934 --> 00:17:58.334
He becomes -- throw the rascals out. Yes?

357
00:17:58.334 --> 00:18:02.100
You are a very good observer.

358
00:18:02.100 --> 00:18:05.701
You're -- it's true.

359
00:18:05.701 --> 00:18:09.667
And I have to say that what I am, I don't -- it is clear I

360
00:18:09.667 --> 00:18:13.300
don't approve the ideological vision of Sarkozy.

361
00:18:13.300 --> 00:18:17.067
But -- but as  --

362
00:18:17.067 --> 00:18:20.167
But you do approve some of it.

363
00:18:20.167 --> 00:18:22.968
You'd like to see more democracy.

364
00:18:22.968 --> 00:18:25.300
You would like to see  --

365
00:18:25.300 --> 00:18:27.334
If it is realized.

366
00:18:27.334 --> 00:18:29.334
-- some -- you would like to see the energy you

367
00:18:29.334 --> 00:18:31.100
find in New York  --

368
00:18:31.100 --> 00:18:32.667
If it is realized.

369
00:18:32.667 --> 00:18:33.968
-- individual sort of meritocracy you find in

370
00:18:33.968 --> 00:18:35.234
New York.

371
00:18:35.234 --> 00:18:36.534
If it is realized.

372
00:18:36.534 --> 00:18:37.801
You would like to see France have

373
00:18:37.801 --> 00:18:39.100
-- do better in

374
00:18:39.100 --> 00:18:40.667
terms of people having an opportunity to  --

375
00:18:40.667 --> 00:18:42.100
Exactly.

376
00:18:42.100 --> 00:18:43.667
But if it is  --

377
00:18:43.667 --> 00:18:45.367
As long as there was a flow of -- support  --

378
00:18:45.367 --> 00:18:47.100
Yes.

379
00:18:47.100 --> 00:18:48.667
-- for social welfare.

380
00:18:48.667 --> 00:18:51.567
No, because I want to be objective.

381
00:18:51.567 --> 00:18:54.501
And I repeat, if Sarkozy realized all of the things you

382
00:18:54.501 --> 00:18:57.400
are expressing now.

383
00:18:57.400 --> 00:19:00.100
But concerning -- I wanted to say that objectively -- his

384
00:19:00.100 --> 00:19:02.601
campaign was excellent.

385
00:19:02.601 --> 00:19:04.968
From a professional point of view.

386
00:19:04.968 --> 00:19:08.934
And I agree with you, he ha realized a miracle.

387
00:19:08.934 --> 00:19:13.934
He was member of the former government, number two.

388
00:19:13.934 --> 00:19:19.801
And he -- he had succeed to appear as a new man coming from

389
00:19:19.801 --> 00:19:25.367
a new planet, coming from Venus, coming from Mars.

390
00:19:25.367 --> 00:19:30.868
He was as Zorro to - it's fantastic.

391
00:19:30.868 --> 00:19:35.501
And we were unable -- we were unable to express clearly to the

392
00:19:35.501 --> 00:19:39.434
people that Sarkozy was the man of the ancient government.

393
00:19:39.434 --> 00:19:43.100
It's because everybody knew that Sarkozy and

394
00:19:43.100 --> 00:19:46.467
Chirac were  --

395
00:19:46.467 --> 00:19:49.534
It's true.

396
00:19:49.534 --> 00:19:52.400
But nevertheless, he was number two,

397
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.067
number two of the government.

398
00:19:55.067 --> 00:19:58.367
And he was responsible.

399
00:19:58.367 --> 00:20:01.334
But he was -- and he was head of the party?

400
00:20:01.334 --> 00:20:04.033
Yes, exactly, he was the president of the party.

401
00:20:04.033 --> 00:20:06.601
Some - something very curious, and  --

402
00:20:06.601 --> 00:20:09.701
Only in France?

403
00:20:09.701 --> 00:20:13.567
Only - I don't know.

404
00:20:13.567 --> 00:20:17.701
It is a strange specialty, perhaps, I don't know.

405
00:20:17.701 --> 00:20:21.300
No, the second miracle he has realized through words who were

406
00:20:21.300 --> 00:20:24.801
sometimes non-acceptable was to integrate, to incorporate the

407
00:20:24.801 --> 00:20:27.901
National Front -- the neo-fascists.

408
00:20:27.901 --> 00:20:30.234
Yes.

409
00:20:30.234 --> 00:20:32.567
He just had Le Pen come into the meeting.

410
00:20:32.567 --> 00:20:34.901
Yes.

411
00:20:34.901 --> 00:20:37.234
But you know what, Mitterrand,

412
00:20:37.234 --> 00:20:39.567
your friend - your

413
00:20:39.567 --> 00:20:43.801
friend, you were in his cabinet. Yes?

414
00:20:43.801 --> 00:20:45.501
Yes.

415
00:20:45.501 --> 00:20:47.300
Minister of culture for Francois Mitterrand.

416
00:20:47.300 --> 00:20:48.901
Yes.

417
00:20:48.901 --> 00:20:50.334
And I'm very proud of this.

418
00:20:50.334 --> 00:20:52.767
And very proud of it -- united the left.

419
00:20:52.767 --> 00:20:55.868
Yes.

420
00:20:55.868 --> 00:20:58.467
He did.

421
00:20:58.467 --> 00:21:00.634
Many say Nicolas Sarkozy is uniting the right and putting it

422
00:21:00.634 --> 00:21:02.534
squarely in the middle, as Francois Mitterrand

423
00:21:02.534 --> 00:21:04.434
did for the left.

424
00:21:04.434 --> 00:21:06.133
Yes.

425
00:21:06.133 --> 00:21:08.234
Did for the (inaudible) --

426
00:21:08.234 --> 00:21:10.100
He folded the Communists into

427
00:21:10.100 --> 00:21:12.100
the Socialist Party.

428
00:21:12.100 --> 00:21:13.834
He folded the left in, in the same way that Sarkozy is taking

429
00:21:13.834 --> 00:21:15.634
the right and saying  --

430
00:21:15.634 --> 00:21:18.267
But it's not completely wrong.

431
00:21:18.267 --> 00:21:20.534
It is true.

432
00:21:20.534 --> 00:21:23.400
It's not completely wrong.

433
00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:26.367
Mitterrand has succeeded to integrate the people who voted

434
00:21:26.367 --> 00:21:29.400
Communist in the past.

435
00:21:29.400 --> 00:21:32.133
And it's the same now for Sarkozy, in relation with

436
00:21:32.133 --> 00:21:34.400
people who has voted Front National in the past.

437
00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.634
Francois Mitterrand believed in a very

438
00:21:36.634 --> 00:21:38.701
strong president.

439
00:21:38.701 --> 00:21:41.467
Yes.

440
00:21:41.467 --> 00:21:45.000
So does Nicolas Sarkozy.

441
00:21:45.000 --> 00:21:47.868
Yes.

442
00:21:47.868 --> 00:21:50.601
It's not -- I'm not against a strong president.

443
00:21:50.601 --> 00:21:53.934
What is a problem in France is that you have

444
00:21:53.934 --> 00:21:57.100
no check and balance.

445
00:21:57.100 --> 00:22:00.067
We have no equilibrium.

446
00:22:00.067 --> 00:22:03.701
Can you imagine in the country, where the separation of powers

447
00:22:03.701 --> 00:22:07.467
has been invented by Montesquieu  --

448
00:22:07.467 --> 00:22:11.734
Montesquieu, yes.

449
00:22:11.734 --> 00:22:15.667
-- after Locke -- we were historically unable to

450
00:22:15.667 --> 00:22:19.901
establish check and balance in France during two centuries

451
00:22:19.901 --> 00:22:23.567
until we give the power to a chief, a king, an emperor, a

452
00:22:23.567 --> 00:22:27.367
dictator, a super-president.

453
00:22:27.367 --> 00:22:31.667
No assembly, no contre-pouvoir, no check and balance.

454
00:22:31.667 --> 00:22:35.434
But you had a revolution.

455
00:22:35.434 --> 00:22:38.534
Yes, but this revolution has not opened the

456
00:22:38.534 --> 00:22:42.200
way to harmonious (ph) democracy.

457
00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:45.634
Maybe it is in your DNA.

458
00:22:45.634 --> 00:22:48.300
Excuse me?

459
00:22:48.300 --> 00:22:51.000
Maybe it's in your

460
00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:53.667
What it means?

461
00:22:53.667 --> 00:22:56.367
It means that it is in your nature, it's in your

462
00:22:56.367 --> 00:22:59.033
-- it's who you are, to like a strong  --

463
00:22:59.033 --> 00:23:01.634
No, it's not wrong.

464
00:23:01.634 --> 00:23:03.901
You know if you read "La democratie en Amerique..:"

465
00:23:03.901 --> 00:23:06.334
Yes.

466
00:23:06.334 --> 00:23:09.100
"Democracy in America," of Tocqueville --

467
00:23:09.100 --> 00:23:12.000
Yeah, exactly.

468
00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:15.267
It express very -- it's very modern.

469
00:23:15.267 --> 00:23:18.834
He say that the difference between American society, the

470
00:23:18.834 --> 00:23:22.000
American people and the French people is that in America,

471
00:23:22.000 --> 00:23:25.234
American people are able to organize themselves.

472
00:23:25.234 --> 00:23:27.901
They has a relation of - (inaudible) -- non-confidence?

473
00:23:27.901 --> 00:23:30.400
Yes.

474
00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:32.501
They have a relation of non-confidence  --

475
00:23:32.501 --> 00:23:34.367
Right.

476
00:23:34.367 --> 00:23:36.000
-- in the public system.

477
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:39.067
Right. Right.

478
00:23:39.067 --> 00:23:40.767
No, no, it's exactly right.

479
00:23:40.767 --> 00:23:42.300
It's a contrary.

480
00:23:42.300 --> 00:23:43.934
More power for the individual.

481
00:23:43.934 --> 00:23:46.000
More power for the individual.

482
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.968
And democracy.

483
00:23:48.968 --> 00:23:52.701
In democracy.

484
00:23:52.701 --> 00:23:57.234
And you are really a deep and serious democracy.

485
00:23:57.234 --> 00:24:01.167
In France, because of, Tocqueville say, the obsession

486
00:24:01.167 --> 00:24:04.667
of French people for formal equality, has this consequence

487
00:24:04.667 --> 00:24:08.067
that the people want to have a chief to

488
00:24:08.067 --> 00:24:11.334
decide for the country.

489
00:24:11.334 --> 00:24:14.300
Yes.

490
00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:17.100
Authoritative figure.

491
00:24:17.100 --> 00:24:19.801
It's deeply in our culture.

492
00:24:19.801 --> 00:24:24.167
Some say it is true in the Russian culture too.

493
00:24:24.167 --> 00:24:28.767
Perhaps also, yes.

494
00:24:28.767 --> 00:24:33.834
But it's - yes.

495
00:24:33.834 --> 00:24:38.100
So if Sarkozy is able to change this and if he is able to give

496
00:24:38.100 --> 00:24:41.834
to the country a real parliament, a real right for the

497
00:24:41.834 --> 00:24:45.133
people, a real system of - of democracy,

498
00:24:45.133 --> 00:24:48.100
it will be a progress.

499
00:24:48.100 --> 00:24:50.834
But I'm not sure he will succeed.

500
00:24:50.834 --> 00:24:53.367
I'm not sure he won't.

501
00:24:53.367 --> 00:24:56.133
But you seem to be contradictory.

502
00:24:56.133 --> 00:24:58.934
You're saying there is no checks and balances --

503
00:24:58.934 --> 00:25:01.701
(inaudible).

504
00:25:01.701 --> 00:25:04.501
On the other hand, you're

505
00:25:04.501 --> 00:25:07.267
saying he may not succeed

506
00:25:07.267 --> 00:25:11.300
because he can't get his programs enacted.

507
00:25:11.300 --> 00:25:14.968
What forces will keep him from getting his program passed?

508
00:25:14.968 --> 00:25:18.200
I think he wants to realize his program, his

509
00:25:18.200 --> 00:25:21.801
economical and social program.

510
00:25:21.801 --> 00:25:25.801
But if there are no checks and balances, then he

511
00:25:25.801 --> 00:25:31.033
should probably get it realized.

512
00:25:31.033 --> 00:25:36.400
It's a question.

513
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.567
I think it's -- even if he has many powers, if he is not able

514
00:25:41.567 --> 00:25:46.534
to give to the opposition, to the parliament real possibility

515
00:25:46.534 --> 00:25:50.934
of dialogue, of discussion, there will be a deep crisis in

516
00:25:50.934 --> 00:25:54.934
our country, because of this lack of democracy now.

517
00:25:54.934 --> 00:25:58.501
But just to tap the  --

518
00:25:58.501 --> 00:26:02.367
I don't know if I am clear.

519
00:26:02.367 --> 00:26:06.133
No, you are very clear, very clear.

520
00:26:06.133 --> 00:26:09.634
It is also this.

521
00:26:09.634 --> 00:26:12.767
He -- you are admiring of how he has come out of the gate.

522
00:26:12.767 --> 00:26:15.834
You are admiring of his first weeks in office, you, yes?

523
00:26:15.834 --> 00:26:18.634
Admire?

524
00:26:18.634 --> 00:26:21.634
What - could you repeat, please?

525
00:26:21.634 --> 00:26:25.000
He seems to be doing the right things.

526
00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:28.033
No, he is a good professional.

527
00:26:28.033 --> 00:26:30.534
So you admire the steps he's taken so far.

528
00:26:30.534 --> 00:26:33.334
No, I admire -- I like people

529
00:26:33.334 --> 00:26:36.000
who are good professionals.

530
00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.501
Why?

531
00:26:38.501 --> 00:26:40.834
Why, because policy is a serious thing.

532
00:26:40.834 --> 00:26:43.067
Was Ms. Royal a good professional?

533
00:26:43.067 --> 00:26:45.434
In a sense, yes.

534
00:26:45.434 --> 00:26:47.501
In a sense  --

535
00:26:47.501 --> 00:26:50.167
In a sense, yes.

536
00:26:50.167 --> 00:26:52.501
But she has been chosen as candidate very late.

537
00:26:52.501 --> 00:26:55.000
OK.

538
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:57.767
What happens to the Socialist Party in France, your party?

539
00:26:57.767 --> 00:27:00.067
Is she the leader?

540
00:27:00.067 --> 00:27:02.400
Is Mr. Hollande, her former companion, the leader?

541
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:04.634
To say - to speak frankly, I'm very severe with my

542
00:27:04.634 --> 00:27:08.667
own party.

543
00:27:08.667 --> 00:27:13.767
Today, they are divided.

544
00:27:13.767 --> 00:27:19.667
Today it is a war between the different leaders.

545
00:27:19.667 --> 00:27:24.767
And I think there is a lack of dignity.

546
00:27:24.767 --> 00:27:29.968
After a defeat, we have to try to preserve a unity, and to -

547
00:27:29.968 --> 00:27:34.234
to take the time to understand why we have lose, because the

548
00:27:34.234 --> 00:27:37.968
real question is this one.

549
00:27:37.968 --> 00:27:41.033
We had in the hands several months ago the

550
00:27:41.033 --> 00:27:43.601
possibilities to win.

551
00:27:43.601 --> 00:27:47.634
And we -- and it was a defeat. Why?

552
00:27:47.634 --> 00:27:49.400
You tell me.

553
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:50.968
Yes?

554
00:27:50.968 --> 00:27:52.767
Why?

555
00:27:52.767 --> 00:27:54.634
No, I don't know exactly why.

556
00:27:54.634 --> 00:27:56.534
You must have ideas.

557
00:27:56.534 --> 00:27:58.234
I mean, you were there.

558
00:27:58.234 --> 00:27:59.734
I have some ideas.

559
00:27:59.734 --> 00:28:01.100
You saw it; you witnessed it.

560
00:28:01.100 --> 00:28:02.634
You discussed it.

561
00:28:02.634 --> 00:28:04.267
I have some ideas.

562
00:28:04.267 --> 00:28:05.767
I have not --

563
00:28:05.767 --> 00:28:07.334
So why?

564
00:28:07.334 --> 00:28:08.767
Give us one or two of your ideas.

565
00:28:08.767 --> 00:28:10.734
Just one.

566
00:28:10.734 --> 00:28:14.667
You are excellent.

567
00:28:14.667 --> 00:28:16.634
Finally, you are here in New

568
00:28:16.634 --> 00:28:18.634
York because of this

569
00:28:18.634 --> 00:28:22.634
music thing.

570
00:28:22.634 --> 00:28:28.000
What is it?

571
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:32.300
No, I think -- no, I don't refuse to answer, but it

572
00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:35.901
is very difficult to -- I think that the French left is too

573
00:28:35.901 --> 00:28:39.300
abstract- she -- she's not really in --

574
00:28:39.300 --> 00:28:42.133
near for the people.

575
00:28:42.133 --> 00:28:44.934
She is not?

576
00:28:44.934 --> 00:28:47.400
Not -- the French left --

577
00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:49.734
Yes.

578
00:28:49.734 --> 00:28:51.734
-- has too abstract language.

579
00:28:51.734 --> 00:28:53.734
Abstract.

580
00:28:53.734 --> 00:28:55.501
Abstract.

581
00:28:55.501 --> 00:28:57.033
Abstract.

582
00:28:57.033 --> 00:28:59.067
Sorry, because I repeat.

583
00:28:59.067 --> 00:29:04.734
You (inaudible). Yes.

584
00:29:04.734 --> 00:29:09.367
The strategy, the strategies, the presidential

585
00:29:09.367 --> 00:29:13.234
strategy was not sufficiently clear and concrete.

586
00:29:13.234 --> 00:29:16.968
And the French left is too abstract, too -- it is -- the

587
00:29:16.968 --> 00:29:20.667
French left is cut from the deep reality of the

588
00:29:20.667 --> 00:29:23.734
country, of the people.

589
00:29:23.734 --> 00:29:26.501
And we have to imagine a new way.

590
00:29:26.501 --> 00:29:28.834
We have to imagine a real revolution for

591
00:29:28.834 --> 00:29:31.434
the Socialist Party.

592
00:29:31.434 --> 00:29:33.634
It will be fun to watch.

593
00:29:33.634 --> 00:29:35.834
Excuse me?

594
00:29:35.834 --> 00:29:38.601
It will be fun to watch, to observe.

595
00:29:38.601 --> 00:29:41.300
Yes, yes.

596
00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:43.601
Thank you for  --

597
00:29:43.601 --> 00:29:45.567
I really to give you news in the future.

598
00:29:45.567 --> 00:29:50.033
If we find - the  --

599
00:29:50.033 --> 00:29:52.133
Thank you.

600
00:29:52.133 --> 00:29:53.934
No, thank you.

601
00:29:53.934 --> 00:29:56.467
And I'm very impressed by your knowledge

602
00:29:56.467 --> 00:29:59.200
of the French reality.

603
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.501
It's not new.

604
00:30:01.501 --> 00:30:04.000
I know that you are a good friend of France and you know

605
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.200
very well the question and the

606
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:08.133
subjects, and our contradictions.

607
00:30:08.133 --> 00:30:09.934
Thank you.

608
00:30:09.934 --> 00:30:11.501
It's a place that I care about.

609
00:30:11.501 --> 00:30:12.901
Thank you very much.

610
00:30:12.901 --> 00:30:14.667
Thank you very much.

611
00:30:14.667 --> 00:30:16.367
Thank you very much.

612
00:30:16.367 --> 00:30:19.067
We'll be back.

613
00:30:19.067 --> 00:30:26.667
Stay with us.

614
00:30:26.667 --> 00:30:29.434
David Steinberg is here.

615
00:30:29.434 --> 00:30:32.133
He is an Emmy Award-winning director, writer, producer,

616
00:30:32.133 --> 00:30:34.501
actor and comedian.

617
00:30:34.501 --> 00:30:36.901
He began his career at Chicago's famed Second City.

618
00:30:36.901 --> 00:30:39.667
And he is perhaps best known for his numerous appearances on

619
00:30:39.667 --> 00:30:42.534
Johnny Carson's "Tonight Show."

620
00:30:42.534 --> 00:30:45.467
More recently, he has earned acclaim as a director for

621
00:30:45.467 --> 00:30:48.801
television shows such as "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and "Seinfeld."

622
00:30:48.801 --> 00:30:52.067
As host of the television interview series "Sit-Down

623
00:30:52.067 --> 00:30:54.767
Comedy With David Steinberg," he has interviewed some of today's

624
00:30:54.767 --> 00:30:57.267
top comedians.

625
00:30:57.267 --> 00:30:59.667
Even in New York, I used to get in

626
00:30:59.667 --> 00:31:01.701
fights on the street.

627
00:31:01.701 --> 00:31:03.968
You know, just something would set me off.

628
00:31:03.968 --> 00:31:05.968
Like - like what?

629
00:31:05.968 --> 00:31:07.901
I don't know.

630
00:31:07.901 --> 00:31:10.267
I would be walking down the street, and you know, I had

631
00:31:10.267 --> 00:31:12.634
asked somebody for the time.

632
00:31:12.634 --> 00:31:14.667
Oh, sorry, you know!

633
00:31:14.667 --> 00:31:17.133
Oh, sorry for making you look at your wrist!

634
00:31:17.133 --> 00:31:19.567
Oh, I'll never ask again, OK!

635
00:31:19.567 --> 00:31:21.868
You know?

636
00:31:21.868 --> 00:31:24.200
You know, just a little, a little face - a little face

637
00:31:24.200 --> 00:31:26.234
would set me off, you know.

638
00:31:26.234 --> 00:31:28.000
David also has a new book.

639
00:31:28.000 --> 00:31:29.834
It is called "The Book of David." I'm pleased to have him

640
00:31:29.834 --> 00:31:33.167
at this table. Welcome.

641
00:31:33.167 --> 00:31:34.701
Thank you, Charlie.

642
00:31:34.701 --> 00:31:36.367
It's a pleasure to be here.

643
00:31:36.367 --> 00:31:37.834
Now, how did you like that gig,

644
00:31:37.834 --> 00:31:39.467
interviewing comedians?

645
00:31:39.467 --> 00:31:40.934
I love it probably more than anything I've

646
00:31:40.934 --> 00:31:42.534
done in years.

647
00:31:42.534 --> 00:31:44.000
Now, here is what is interesting

648
00:31:44.000 --> 00:31:45.367
about that for me.

649
00:31:45.367 --> 00:31:46.868
Comedians are always the first to tell you -- Johnny Carson

650
00:31:46.868 --> 00:31:48.234
used to say this  --

651
00:31:48.234 --> 00:31:49.534
Yes.

652
00:31:49.534 --> 00:31:51.000
-- talking about comedy is not funny.

653
00:31:51.000 --> 00:31:52.934
Correct.

654
00:31:52.934 --> 00:31:55.534
It's true.

655
00:31:55.534 --> 00:31:57.834
It is the worst thing that you can do.

656
00:31:57.834 --> 00:31:59.834
So when I -- when I did this show, and I invited comedians

657
00:31:59.834 --> 00:32:01.834
on, it was not, let's not discuss the craft of comedy.

658
00:32:01.834 --> 00:32:03.834
Let's show it.

659
00:32:03.834 --> 00:32:05.767
Yeah.

660
00:32:05.767 --> 00:32:07.534
By how you talk about your life.

661
00:32:07.534 --> 00:32:09.367
And then, of course, th smartest thing I did was I put

662
00:32:09.367 --> 00:32:11.234
it in front of an audience.

663
00:32:11.234 --> 00:32:12.901
Right.

664
00:32:12.901 --> 00:32:14.634
You put a comedian in front of an

665
00:32:14.634 --> 00:32:16.868
audience; they're going to be funny.

666
00:32:16.868 --> 00:32:19.033
And - and they all were.

667
00:32:19.033 --> 00:32:21.334
Are they born or made, comedians?

668
00:32:21.334 --> 00:32:24.000
You can't teach -- you can't teach someone --

669
00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:27.534
you can't give someone a sense of humor.

670
00:32:27.534 --> 00:32:30.767
You have to be - but you know, a sense of humor is sort of like

671
00:32:30.767 --> 00:32:33.567
-- it always reminds me of these sort of weekend athletes, who

672
00:32:33.567 --> 00:32:36.400
always feel, you know, just -- I could do as well as LeBron

673
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:38.834
James if I was playing with him, you know, on a good day because

674
00:32:38.834 --> 00:32:41.267
my shot is hot.

675
00:32:41.267 --> 00:32:43.467
But everyone is sort of an athlete and everyone has a sense

676
00:32:43.467 --> 00:32:46.067
of humor.

677
00:32:46.067 --> 00:32:48.267
So they all think they, you know, you've got to meet my

678
00:32:48.267 --> 00:32:50.434
friend; he's so funny.

679
00:32:50.434 --> 00:32:52.534
But the difference between being professionally funny and just

680
00:32:52.534 --> 00:32:54.634
having a sense of humor --

681
00:32:54.634 --> 00:32:56.467
That's the profession.

682
00:32:56.467 --> 00:32:58.133
That is what it's about.

683
00:32:58.133 --> 00:32:59.834
It is a career and a craft.

684
00:32:59.834 --> 00:33:01.534
Yes.

685
00:33:01.534 --> 00:33:03.200
It may be in this book, or I may

686
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:04.901
have read it and

687
00:33:04.901 --> 00:33:07.100
you can correct me if I'm wrong, that Jack Benny was with

688
00:33:07.100 --> 00:33:09.100
George Burns, and George Burns made some funny remark --

689
00:33:09.100 --> 00:33:10.834
Yes.

690
00:33:10.834 --> 00:33:12.467
-- to Benny.

691
00:33:12.467 --> 00:33:14.467
And what did Benny say?

692
00:33:14.467 --> 00:33:17.133
Well --

693
00:33:17.133 --> 00:33:19.367
Set the stage.

694
00:33:19.367 --> 00:33:21.934
Well, I was invited -- an amazing thing to

695
00:33:21.934 --> 00:33:24.133
happen when you are 28 -- I was working on a draft of a play on

696
00:33:24.133 --> 00:33:26.300
the Marx Brothers.

697
00:33:26.300 --> 00:33:28.601
So I was with Groucho for about a year every Tuesday at lunch,

698
00:33:28.601 --> 00:33:30.634
that's where we met.

699
00:33:30.634 --> 00:33:32.868
And he would take me to Hillcrest.

700
00:33:32.868 --> 00:33:34.934
It's in

701
00:33:34.934 --> 00:33:36.968
>>L.A. DAVID STEINBERG: It's in L.A. It's a country club.

702
00:33:36.968 --> 00:33:39.400
And at the table would be, every Tuesday, George Burns,

703
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:42.334
Jack Benny and Groucho.

704
00:33:42.334 --> 00:33:45.501
And Irving Find (ph), who was their manager.

705
00:33:45.501 --> 00:33:48.300
And imagine, and me at 28 years old.

706
00:33:48.300 --> 00:33:51.334
I, you know, I was arrogant at 28, but not arrogant enough to

707
00:33:51.334 --> 00:33:53.868
not realize that I was at the sort of Mount Rushmore of comedy

708
00:33:53.868 --> 00:33:56.267
sitting across from me.

709
00:33:56.267 --> 00:33:58.334
And Groucho was always funny in sort of reacting to something,

710
00:33:58.334 --> 00:34:00.133
right, that was his style.

711
00:34:00.133 --> 00:34:02.000
Benny, anything that George Burns said --

712
00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:03.868
Benny laughed.

713
00:34:03.868 --> 00:34:05.968
Benny laughed.

714
00:34:05.968 --> 00:34:08.033
He laughed at everything that George Burns said.

715
00:34:08.033 --> 00:34:10.133
And he made a career out of making that point.

716
00:34:10.133 --> 00:34:12.200
Yes, and on TV, he always gave

717
00:34:12.200 --> 00:34:14.300
the jokes away to

718
00:34:14.300 --> 00:34:16.901
other people, Benny.

719
00:34:16.901 --> 00:34:19.434
So at one lunch, I forget what George Burns said, but he said

720
00:34:19.434 --> 00:34:22.267
something to Benny sort of in a put-down way that

721
00:34:22.267 --> 00:34:25.467
was just so funny.

722
00:34:25.467 --> 00:34:28.868
And just Benny started to laugh, we all laughed.

723
00:34:28.868 --> 00:34:31.701
And Jack Benny waited, just perfect timing, and he said to

724
00:34:31.701 --> 00:34:34.300
George, you know, if I had my comedy writers with me now, you

725
00:34:34.300 --> 00:34:36.767
would hear a put-down the likes of which you have

726
00:34:36.767 --> 00:34:39.367
never heard before.

727
00:34:39.367 --> 00:34:42.167
Yeah, and that of course topped everyone.

728
00:34:42.167 --> 00:34:45.334
Timing is everything for comedy.

729
00:34:45.334 --> 00:34:48.167
Timing is -- boy, is it ever.

730
00:34:48.167 --> 00:34:51.667
It's everything in terms of the career, itself.

731
00:34:51.667 --> 00:34:55.133
You have to hit a perfect period of time.

732
00:34:55.133 --> 00:34:57.968
You have to be right for that time.

733
00:34:57.968 --> 00:35:00.701
You know, there's Dave Chappelle, this comedian who is

734
00:35:00.701 --> 00:35:03.767
Comedy Central, brilliantly, brilliantly, funny, and a

735
00:35:03.767 --> 00:35:07.200
wonderful show.

736
00:35:07.200 --> 00:35:10.000
And then for whatever reason, he's off.

737
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:13.033
And I was thinking, if he comes back now, he can be as

738
00:35:13.033 --> 00:35:16.234
brilliantly funny as he was then, but he owned that period

739
00:35:16.234 --> 00:35:19.601
of time.

740
00:35:19.601 --> 00:35:22.434
And the timing of when you come back, it shifts.

741
00:35:22.434 --> 00:35:24.567
The culture changes, the zeitgeist changes, and I'm just

742
00:35:24.567 --> 00:35:26.667
wondering, if they gave him the same show a year later, would he

743
00:35:26.667 --> 00:35:28.801
catch on in the same way?

744
00:35:28.801 --> 00:35:30.901
What's interesting about him, to

745
00:35:30.901 --> 00:35:33.033
me, is that they

746
00:35:33.033 --> 00:35:35.133
just -- they unloaded the trough, just backed it up and

747
00:35:35.133 --> 00:35:36.934
just poured the money there.

748
00:35:36.934 --> 00:35:39.033
Correct.

749
00:35:39.033 --> 00:35:41.167
And he said no, I just don't

750
00:35:41.167 --> 00:35:43.267
want to do it anymore.

751
00:35:43.267 --> 00:35:45.400
No, no, but he is an

752
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:47.501
example to me of something

753
00:35:47.501 --> 00:35:51.067
that networks forget about, and sometimes the fringe cable

754
00:35:51.067 --> 00:35:54.701
outlets sort of heed.

755
00:35:54.701 --> 00:35:58.167
And that is the most personal comedy gets the widest audience.

756
00:35:58.167 --> 00:36:01.267
It's the opposite of what networks do.

757
00:36:01.267 --> 00:36:04.167
If you are personal on a network, they will say to you,

758
00:36:04.167 --> 00:36:06.634
as you are developing, it's got to be more generic.

759
00:36:06.634 --> 00:36:09.000
Could you make that character more likable?

760
00:36:09.000 --> 00:36:11.367
Can you - can you middle it out.

761
00:36:11.367 --> 00:36:14.067
But the surprise is --

762
00:36:14.067 --> 00:36:16.367
Can you dumb it down.

763
00:36:16.367 --> 00:36:18.701
Yeah, can you dumb it down.

764
00:36:18.701 --> 00:36:21.334
But the surprise is, if it's personal, it will

765
00:36:21.334 --> 00:36:23.801
get you a wide audience.

766
00:36:23.801 --> 00:36:26.467
Like Dave Chappelle - you know, he would do black/white humor,

767
00:36:26.467 --> 00:36:29.400
but it did - it appealed to anyone who just is watching

768
00:36:29.400 --> 00:36:32.334
something that is genuinely funny and personal.

769
00:36:32.334 --> 00:36:35.567
And the clip we saw, Larry David, "Curb Your Enthusiasm" --

770
00:36:35.567 --> 00:36:38.501
you would think "Curb Your Enthusiasm" would be watched by

771
00:36:38.501 --> 00:36:41.501
misanthropic Jews and nobody else.

772
00:36:41.501 --> 00:36:44.501
But you would be amazed how wide the audience is.

773
00:36:44.501 --> 00:36:47.000
What does that say?

774
00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:49.133
It just says that misanthropic Jewish humor is great?

775
00:36:49.133 --> 00:36:51.334
No, it's not a comment on

776
00:36:51.334 --> 00:36:53.234
misanthropic Jewish humor.

777
00:36:53.234 --> 00:36:56.501
It's personal.

778
00:36:56.501 --> 00:36:59.634
It is Larry's personal -- it is -- he's a

779
00:36:59.634 --> 00:37:02.734
Jewish W.C. Fields.

780
00:37:02.734 --> 00:37:06.067
And he is not afraid to not win over the entire world.

781
00:37:06.067 --> 00:37:09.100
Could there have been a "Seinfeld," in terms of

782
00:37:09.100 --> 00:37:11.601
the television show, without Larry David?

783
00:37:11.601 --> 00:37:13.734
I don't think so.

784
00:37:13.734 --> 00:37:15.901
Well, it wouldn't have happened.

785
00:37:15.901 --> 00:37:17.734
And others.

786
00:37:17.734 --> 00:37:19.767
It wasn't just Larry.

787
00:37:19.767 --> 00:37:21.567
No, no, but Jerry -- you

788
00:37:21.567 --> 00:37:23.567
know, here's the thing.

789
00:37:23.567 --> 00:37:26.067
Larry David is one of the best comedy writers I've ever worked

790
00:37:26.067 --> 00:37:28.734
with, period.

791
00:37:28.734 --> 00:37:31.634
If you asked Larry to define himself, even as he's

792
00:37:31.634 --> 00:37:35.200
performing, he would define himself as a writer.

793
00:37:35.200 --> 00:37:39.067
In fact, "Curb Your Enthusiasm," what is interesting about it,

794
00:37:39.067 --> 00:37:42.234
is it is -- the dialogue is improvised.

795
00:37:42.234 --> 00:37:45.267
So - and so because "Curb Your Enthusiasm" is so successful,

796
00:37:45.267 --> 00:37:47.801
it's unleashed this sort of improvisational kind of style

797
00:37:47.801 --> 00:37:50.000
all over the television and --.

798
00:37:50.000 --> 00:37:52.167
And in part, that's what Chappelle does.

799
00:37:52.167 --> 00:37:54.267
What, who?

800
00:37:54.267 --> 00:37:56.100
David Chappelle?

801
00:37:56.100 --> 00:37:57.968
David Chappelle, yes.

802
00:37:57.968 --> 00:37:59.868
But David Chappelle doesn't improvise the dialogue.

803
00:37:59.868 --> 00:38:01.567
He writes it.

804
00:38:01.567 --> 00:38:03.067
He writes it, right, right.

805
00:38:03.067 --> 00:38:04.834
This is scripted stuff, and the dialogue

806
00:38:04.834 --> 00:38:06.434
is improvised.

807
00:38:06.434 --> 00:38:07.968
So the script takes Larry --

808
00:38:07.968 --> 00:38:09.501
Wherever the character that he

809
00:38:09.501 --> 00:38:11.000
engages takes him.

810
00:38:11.000 --> 00:38:12.534
The mathematics of the story is

811
00:38:12.534 --> 00:38:14.067
really what the

812
00:38:14.067 --> 00:38:16.501
writing is about, and then you just improvise the dialogue.

813
00:38:16.501 --> 00:38:19.200
So is he then a reactor, or --

814
00:38:19.200 --> 00:38:21.467
No, the reason he improvised the dialogue and

815
00:38:21.467 --> 00:38:23.767
unleashed this sort of whole community of improvisers, is

816
00:38:23.767 --> 00:38:26.234
because he said, you know, I directed the second show of this

817
00:38:26.234 --> 00:38:28.968
-- when we started this.

818
00:38:28.968 --> 00:38:31.634
He said, "I can't act.

819
00:38:31.634 --> 00:38:34.300
So I will never be able to repeat anything.

820
00:38:34.300 --> 00:38:36.634
So I just want to improvise." So he didn't have any commitment

821
00:38:36.634 --> 00:38:39.200
to this form or Second City.

822
00:38:39.200 --> 00:38:41.634
That is why he -- that is why he does it.

823
00:38:41.634 --> 00:38:44.000
Now, he could do it all.

824
00:38:44.000 --> 00:38:46.534
I'm also struck by -- when comedians leave their

825
00:38:46.534 --> 00:38:48.701
television know, and I assume this happened with Jerry

826
00:38:48.701 --> 00:38:50.567
Seinfeld -- I don't know -- but certainly I have read about

827
00:38:50.567 --> 00:38:52.601
David - Dave Chappelle's beginning to sort of sneak into

828
00:38:52.601 --> 00:38:54.868
comedy clubs.

829
00:38:54.868 --> 00:38:57.434
Yes.

830
00:38:57.434 --> 00:38:59.601
It seems always, when they are getting ready or

831
00:38:59.601 --> 00:39:01.534
in transition, or have left something on their way to

832
00:39:01.534 --> 00:39:03.434
something else, the place they go is they begin

833
00:39:03.434 --> 00:39:05.267
doing stand-up again.

834
00:39:05.267 --> 00:39:06.901
Yes.

835
00:39:06.901 --> 00:39:08.367
Testing stuff.

836
00:39:08.367 --> 00:39:09.968
Yes.

837
00:39:09.968 --> 00:39:11.434
At comedy clubs.

838
00:39:11.434 --> 00:39:13.000
Yes.

839
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:14.834
It's how comedians find their authentic self, and you have to

840
00:39:14.834 --> 00:39:16.467
go back to it all the time.

841
00:39:16.467 --> 00:39:18.300
It's like retraining.

842
00:39:18.300 --> 00:39:20.634
It's like going back for a golf  --

843
00:39:20.634 --> 00:39:22.701
Exactly.

844
00:39:22.701 --> 00:39:25.000
It reminds you of who you are again.

845
00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:27.567
Because you get -- fame hits you, you are with a community of

846
00:39:27.567 --> 00:39:30.133
people and all of that.

847
00:39:30.133 --> 00:39:32.601
When you get -- when you do stand-up comedy, Charlie, and

848
00:39:32.601 --> 00:39:34.934
the audience doesn't like you, they are not saying, "we don't

849
00:39:34.934 --> 00:39:37.467
like the set, we don't like the author --"

850
00:39:37.467 --> 00:39:39.667
We don't like your tie.

851
00:39:39.667 --> 00:39:41.801
We don't like your tie.

852
00:39:41.801 --> 00:39:44.534
They say you, we don't get it.

853
00:39:44.534 --> 00:39:47.667
It's not funny.

854
00:39:47.667 --> 00:39:50.868
It's not funny.

855
00:39:50.868 --> 00:39:54.367
And if you can carve yourself out of that, then you emerge

856
00:39:54.367 --> 00:39:57.234
somehow as -- as a comedian, and an entity.

857
00:39:57.234 --> 00:39:59.634
Is it fair to say that there is not one comedian

858
00:39:59.634 --> 00:40:02.033
alive who has not stood before an audience who said, "you are

859
00:40:02.033 --> 00:40:04.434
not funny?"

860
00:40:04.434 --> 00:40:06.834
Oh, not only -- not only has

861
00:40:06.834 --> 00:40:09.234
every comedian --

862
00:40:09.234 --> 00:40:12.033
comedians understand each other because they go through this.

863
00:40:12.033 --> 00:40:14.901
They are - you --

864
00:40:14.901 --> 00:40:17.300
It's like --

865
00:40:17.300 --> 00:40:19.400
It is - it's something that we know, yes.

866
00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:21.501
I'm a comedian and I have failed a lot.

867
00:40:21.501 --> 00:40:23.767
Exactly.

868
00:40:23.767 --> 00:40:26.234
Here is my story.

869
00:40:26.234 --> 00:40:28.801
Here's my story.

870
00:40:28.801 --> 00:40:31.434
I mean, Jerry Seinfeld, one of the best stand-up comedians

871
00:40:31.434 --> 00:40:34.434
that there is -- and incidentally, to answer your

872
00:40:34.434 --> 00:40:37.067
question about would "Seinfeld" exist without Jerry - without

873
00:40:37.067 --> 00:40:39.934
Larry -- the interesting thing about comedians who get a

874
00:40:39.934 --> 00:40:42.901
sit-com and it succeeds on the level of "Seinfeld" is that they

875
00:40:42.901 --> 00:40:45.801
have to be writers themselves.

876
00:40:45.801 --> 00:40:48.834
Jerry has to be -- Jerry is a great writer.

877
00:40:48.834 --> 00:40:51.901
So he is able to capture sort of whatever that aura is that an

878
00:40:51.901 --> 00:40:54.467
audience identifies with when they are seeing him live as a

879
00:40:54.467 --> 00:40:57.501
stand-up comedian, and translate that into this show.

880
00:40:57.501 --> 00:41:00.534
Now, he and Larry David, they will admit, they were major

881
00:41:00.534 --> 00:41:03.601
partners and --

882
00:41:03.601 --> 00:41:06.634
They were on the same wavelength

883
00:41:06.634 --> 00:41:09.901
and they were --

884
00:41:09.901 --> 00:41:13.167
2:00 at night, if you were on the lot, you

885
00:41:13.167 --> 00:41:15.934
know, at

886
00:41:15.934 --> 00:41:18.701
>>CBS (sic): In fact, I know this from Jack Welch's book, then

887
00:41:18.701 --> 00:41:21.467
CEO/chairman of General Electric -- which owned

888
00:41:21.467 --> 00:41:24.234
You could name-drop people that I would have no contact

889
00:41:24.234 --> 00:41:27.000
with ever in my lifetime.

890
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.267
Here's the point.

891
00:41:30.267 --> 00:41:33.334
Evidently in his book, Welch said we were going to give him

892
00:41:33.334 --> 00:41:36.133
-- if he would just give us one more year -- $100

893
00:41:36.133 --> 00:41:38.501
million, to Seinfeld.

894
00:41:38.501 --> 00:41:40.767
He knew he was going to make a ton of money, as Larry did,

895
00:41:40.767 --> 00:41:42.701
when they started syndication --

896
00:41:42.701 --> 00:41:44.667
Sure.

897
00:41:44.667 --> 00:41:47.067
And Jerry said no.

898
00:41:47.067 --> 00:41:49.267
That's right.

899
00:41:49.267 --> 00:41:51.400
Said no, because he said, "you don't know what

900
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.534
it's like." Because of their personal sense of quality.

901
00:41:53.534 --> 00:41:55.601
Correct.

902
00:41:55.601 --> 00:41:57.400
It's got to be good for us, first.

903
00:41:57.400 --> 00:41:59.200
First, got to be --

904
00:41:59.200 --> 00:42:00.868
If it's not good for us, we're not going to put

905
00:42:00.868 --> 00:42:02.868
it out there.

906
00:42:02.868 --> 00:42:04.868
That is exactly right.

907
00:42:04.868 --> 00:42:06.868
He said, "you don't know what it's like

908
00:42:06.868 --> 00:42:08.601
sitting there, slaving away."

909
00:42:08.601 --> 00:42:10.167
It is the hardest work.

910
00:42:10.167 --> 00:42:11.834
And it's not worth $100 million for another year

911
00:42:11.834 --> 00:42:13.601
for me.

912
00:42:13.601 --> 00:42:15.167
Correct.

913
00:42:15.167 --> 00:42:16.834
And it's the hardest work to do.

914
00:42:16.834 --> 00:42:18.601
You are not - you can't be with your family when you are working

915
00:42:18.601 --> 00:42:20.400
on a television show.

916
00:42:20.400 --> 00:42:22.367
And then Jerry, he is so committed to stand-up comedy --

917
00:42:22.367 --> 00:42:24.067
Jerry never has to do stand-up comedy again forever.

918
00:42:24.067 --> 00:42:25.868
He doesn't have to do anything, he's so successful financially.

919
00:42:25.868 --> 00:42:27.701
He loves the form so much  --

920
00:42:27.701 --> 00:42:29.601
Right.

921
00:42:29.601 --> 00:42:31.501
-- and in answer to another one of your

922
00:42:31.501 --> 00:42:33.434
question, when Jerry goes on stage, the audience -- the

923
00:42:33.434 --> 00:42:35.367
hardest thing for a comedian is when you are starting out is

924
00:42:35.367 --> 00:42:37.100
for the audience to know who you are.

925
00:42:37.100 --> 00:42:38.868
If they don't know who you are, they -- why should they give you

926
00:42:38.868 --> 00:42:40.467
their trust and why should you be talking about

927
00:42:40.467 --> 00:42:42.133
your life to them?

928
00:42:42.133 --> 00:42:43.801
So they have -- you have to introduce

929
00:42:43.801 --> 00:42:45.834
yourself to the audience.

930
00:42:45.834 --> 00:42:48.200
What is great about being known, like Jerry Seinfeld, is the

931
00:42:48.200 --> 00:42:50.501
audience knows him coming in.

932
00:42:50.501 --> 00:42:52.501
So they give him their trust.

933
00:42:52.501 --> 00:42:55.033
He didn't go on stage, do al of his new material, then -- all

934
00:42:55.033 --> 00:42:57.868
of the material he has worked out in front of

935
00:42:57.868 --> 00:43:01.467
an audience before.

936
00:43:01.467 --> 00:43:04.434
When he tries his new piece of material, they could have been

937
00:43:04.434 --> 00:43:07.167
going nuts for him, if that material lacks a little bit of

938
00:43:07.167 --> 00:43:09.701
confidence, and a structure that isn't exactly right  --

939
00:43:09.701 --> 00:43:12.000
Yes.

940
00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:14.300
-- the audience retreats as if you're

941
00:43:14.300 --> 00:43:16.300
starting up all over again.

942
00:43:16.300 --> 00:43:18.267
Show us.

943
00:43:18.267 --> 00:43:20.033
So, I haven't asked Jerry.

944
00:43:20.033 --> 00:43:21.834
Show us.

945
00:43:21.834 --> 00:43:23.667
But that is what it's like.

946
00:43:23.667 --> 00:43:25.334
Yeah.

947
00:43:25.334 --> 00:43:26.567
You know, when I started out, I started out

948
00:43:26.567 --> 00:43:27.801
doing stand- up at the Bitter End.

949
00:43:27.801 --> 00:43:29.067
Right.

950
00:43:29.067 --> 00:43:30.300
And I played to audiences

951
00:43:30.300 --> 00:43:31.567
of eight, 12 people,

952
00:43:31.567 --> 00:43:32.968
14 people.

953
00:43:32.968 --> 00:43:34.934
I opened for folk singers.

954
00:43:34.934 --> 00:43:37.501
That was - that was the era of the folk singer.

955
00:43:37.501 --> 00:43:39.901
Right.

956
00:43:39.901 --> 00:43:42.200
And the Bitter End made its money by the Gray

957
00:43:42.200 --> 00:43:44.434
Line bus tours that would, they would drop tourists off to look

958
00:43:44.434 --> 00:43:46.601
at sort of the weird  --

959
00:43:46.601 --> 00:43:48.467
Right.

960
00:43:48.467 --> 00:43:50.367
-- hippie beatnik type people.

961
00:43:50.367 --> 00:43:52.033
You take them to the Village  --

962
00:43:52.033 --> 00:43:53.801
Yeah.

963
00:43:53.801 --> 00:43:55.701
-- and then you go by the Bitter End.

964
00:43:55.701 --> 00:43:57.567
Right.

965
00:43:57.567 --> 00:43:59.701
So I mean -- giving me the Gray Line bus tour audience is about

966
00:43:59.701 --> 00:44:01.567
the saddest thing you can do to a comedian.

967
00:44:01.567 --> 00:44:03.434
So -- so they would come  --

968
00:44:03.434 --> 00:44:05.334
Why, because they don't want to be there or  --

969
00:44:05.334 --> 00:44:07.200
Well, they want a comedian

970
00:44:07.200 --> 00:44:09.067
who certainly talks

971
00:44:09.067 --> 00:44:11.267
-- they would say to me on stage, when the bus tour was

972
00:44:11.267 --> 00:44:13.734
there, the Bitter End is so small, smaller than this table,

973
00:44:13.734 --> 00:44:15.801
there is 150 seats in it, and I would

974
00:44:15.801 --> 00:44:17.601
have - have the microphone.

975
00:44:17.601 --> 00:44:19.467
And I would be talking to the mike to them and I say, well,

976
00:44:19.467 --> 00:44:21.367
welcome tonight.

977
00:44:21.367 --> 00:44:23.200
And thank you.

978
00:44:23.200 --> 00:44:25.067
And they would holler, talk louder!

979
00:44:25.067 --> 00:44:26.767
It's because they were used to comedians like being out there.

980
00:44:26.767 --> 00:44:28.267
And I sort of just  --

981
00:44:28.267 --> 00:44:29.634
They were used to Bob Hope.

982
00:44:29.634 --> 00:44:32.601
Bob Hope. Yes.

983
00:44:32.601 --> 00:44:34.968
I have no range whatsoever.

984
00:44:34.968 --> 00:44:37.033
I just talk.

985
00:44:37.033 --> 00:44:39.267
And then I was - then I was doing my biblical material, so I

986
00:44:39.267 --> 00:44:41.868
would say something about Moses and God, totally

987
00:44:41.868 --> 00:44:44.534
inoffensive so far.

988
00:44:44.534 --> 00:44:48.400
And they would say, honey, a woman stood up to me and really,

989
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:51.734
one night, said "honey, if you know what's good for you, leave

990
00:44:51.734 --> 00:44:54.667
God alone." So I said, "I have no choice; this is the only

991
00:44:54.667 --> 00:44:57.934
material I have." And she very cleverly said, "well, but why

992
00:44:57.934 --> 00:45:01.267
should we suffer?"

993
00:45:01.267 --> 00:45:04.067
So I remember this very well.

994
00:45:04.067 --> 00:45:07.400
Because the next night, the owner of the Bitter End canceled

995
00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:10.167
- said, David, we're sorry, the Gray Line bus tours won't come

996
00:45:10.167 --> 00:45:12.734
in if you are performing.

997
00:45:12.734 --> 00:45:14.901
And so we are - we're canceling  --

998
00:45:14.901 --> 00:45:17.033
You.

999
00:45:17.033 --> 00:45:18.901
We're canceling you.

1000
00:45:18.901 --> 00:45:20.534
So -- and I had one more night.

1001
00:45:20.534 --> 00:45:22.334
I went back the next night, and it was back to six people.

1002
00:45:22.334 --> 00:45:24.634
Six people, maybe eight people.

1003
00:45:24.634 --> 00:45:27.300
And I did the show.

1004
00:45:27.300 --> 00:45:30.300
And the interesting thing about comedians, Charlie, is if you

1005
00:45:30.300 --> 00:45:33.467
have six people in the audience, you - you don't hate

1006
00:45:33.467 --> 00:45:36.100
all the people that haven't come to see you.

1007
00:45:36.100 --> 00:45:39.300
You hate the six for making you have to do a show for them,

1008
00:45:39.300 --> 00:45:42.200
because six people is not enough audience.

1009
00:45:42.200 --> 00:45:44.601
Yes.

1010
00:45:44.601 --> 00:45:46.934
So I was - tried to talk to the owner, you

1011
00:45:46.934 --> 00:45:49.267
know, it's my last night, I'm not coming back, why make me

1012
00:45:49.267 --> 00:45:51.300
work for six people?

1013
00:45:51.300 --> 00:45:53.067
But I went out and I did the show, because Sydney Poitier was

1014
00:45:53.067 --> 00:45:54.634
there and he had directed me in a play on Broadway, and was a

1015
00:45:54.634 --> 00:45:56.534
friend of mine.

1016
00:45:56.534 --> 00:45:58.200
Yeah.

1017
00:45:58.200 --> 00:45:59.734
And what was the play?

1018
00:45:59.734 --> 00:46:01.367
It was a play called "Carry Me Back to

1019
00:46:01.367 --> 00:46:03.334
Morningside Heights."

1020
00:46:03.334 --> 00:46:04.667
Right.

1021
00:46:04.667 --> 00:46:06.033
So - so with Sydney there  --

1022
00:46:06.033 --> 00:46:07.367
An audience of one.

1023
00:46:07.367 --> 00:46:08.734
Well, but there are six people,

1024
00:46:08.734 --> 00:46:10.067
but I have to do

1025
00:46:10.067 --> 00:46:11.634
-- I love this person.

1026
00:46:11.634 --> 00:46:13.501
Right.

1027
00:46:13.501 --> 00:46:15.567
You can't not.

1028
00:46:15.567 --> 00:46:17.601
And so I did as good a show as you possibly can.

1029
00:46:17.601 --> 00:46:19.934
There were maybe Sydney laughing and - and whoever he was with.

1030
00:46:19.934 --> 00:46:22.434
And you can't hear six people laughing.

1031
00:46:22.434 --> 00:46:24.601
And - and that was it.

1032
00:46:24.601 --> 00:46:26.534
And so I went home, and Sydney said, David, it's going so well,

1033
00:46:26.534 --> 00:46:28.567
and you're working great, and, you know -- Sydney is so, you

1034
00:46:28.567 --> 00:46:30.834
know, encouraging.

1035
00:46:30.834 --> 00:46:33.033
He was a mentor of mine.

1036
00:46:33.033 --> 00:46:34.934
And I said, yeah, it's my last night, and all of that.

1037
00:46:34.934 --> 00:46:36.634
Anyway, the next morning I woke up and a friend of mine called

1038
00:46:36.634 --> 00:46:38.367
me and said, "have you seen "The New York

1039
00:46:38.367 --> 00:46:40.734
Times" this morning?"

1040
00:46:40.734 --> 00:46:43.534
I said no.

1041
00:46:43.534 --> 00:46:46.067
So I'm going to read it, but I haven't seen it.

1042
00:46:46.067 --> 00:46:48.200
He said, look in the -- and gave me the page, and the headline

1043
00:46:48.200 --> 00:46:50.334
was a review -- the reviewer for "The New York Times" was in

1044
00:46:50.334 --> 00:46:52.400
that audience.

1045
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:54.234
Yeah.

1046
00:46:54.234 --> 00:46:56.267
And he said, "David Steinberg, a cross

1047
00:46:56.267 --> 00:46:58.334
between Woody Allen and Lenny Bruce" -- it was just one of

1048
00:46:58.334 --> 00:47:00.434
these great reviews.

1049
00:47:00.434 --> 00:47:02.300
And the next night I came to work, you couldn't get into the

1050
00:47:02.300 --> 00:47:03.934
Village, there were that many people there.

1051
00:47:03.934 --> 00:47:05.400
And your career was made at that time?

1052
00:47:05.400 --> 00:47:06.834
Absolutely.

1053
00:47:06.834 --> 00:47:08.234
Wow!

1054
00:47:08.234 --> 00:47:09.634
That, that  --

1055
00:47:09.634 --> 00:47:11.033
The luck of "The New York Times"

1056
00:47:11.033 --> 00:47:12.467
critic having to

1057
00:47:12.467 --> 00:47:14.400
be there for your last performance?

1058
00:47:14.400 --> 00:47:16.367
A show that - if - if Sydney wasn't there, I

1059
00:47:16.367 --> 00:47:18.100
would have dogged and I know I wouldn't have been as good.

1060
00:47:18.100 --> 00:47:19.901
You had to be good for Sydney.

1061
00:47:19.901 --> 00:47:21.501
I had to be good for Sydney.

1062
00:47:21.501 --> 00:47:22.968
All right.

1063
00:47:22.968 --> 00:47:24.300
In the remaining time, let me just talk about two people

1064
00:47:24.300 --> 00:47:25.634
because - Woody Allen.

1065
00:47:25.634 --> 00:47:26.968
Yes.

1066
00:47:26.968 --> 00:47:28.300
Where is he, what does he mean,

1067
00:47:28.300 --> 00:47:31.834
stand for, all of that?

1068
00:47:31.834 --> 00:47:34.501
Well, there is no comedian that - that's

1069
00:47:34.501 --> 00:47:36.767
working -- the writing community in television is such

1070
00:47:36.767 --> 00:47:39.667
a smart, witty group of people.

1071
00:47:39.667 --> 00:47:42.133
You know, nowadays, Charlie, people, you know, writers used

1072
00:47:42.133 --> 00:47:44.267
to come from all over.

1073
00:47:44.267 --> 00:47:46.367
But - but now we get graduates of Harvard who want to write on

1074
00:47:46.367 --> 00:47:48.200
Curb Your Enthusiasm.

1075
00:47:48.200 --> 00:47:50.067
And are.

1076
00:47:50.067 --> 00:47:51.701
And are, that's true.

1077
00:47:51.701 --> 00:47:53.601
They are.

1078
00:47:53.601 --> 00:47:55.267
There are three who are

1079
00:47:55.267 --> 00:47:57.501
wonderful writers. Yes.

1080
00:47:57.501 --> 00:47:59.501
And so - so you get -- but to them, there is no one like

1081
00:47:59.501 --> 00:48:02.000
Woody Allen.

1082
00:48:02.000 --> 00:48:04.734
Woody Allen is just the paragon of -- he's sort of the best  --

1083
00:48:04.734 --> 00:48:07.067
But what is it?

1084
00:48:07.067 --> 00:48:09.300
Is it because they think, A, because I mean, he is a very

1085
00:48:09.300 --> 00:48:11.467
literate man and he writes very interesting  --

1086
00:48:11.467 --> 00:48:13.601
Yeah.

1087
00:48:13.601 --> 00:48:15.434
-- not just comedy but prose, and he writes

1088
00:48:15.434 --> 00:48:17.334
a whole, you know, magazine articles and essays.

1089
00:48:17.334 --> 00:48:19.167
He's got a new book out, all of that.

1090
00:48:19.167 --> 00:48:20.968
Yeah.

1091
00:48:20.968 --> 00:48:22.834
But he is a film director and has done things

1092
00:48:22.834 --> 00:48:24.467
that people just love.

1093
00:48:24.467 --> 00:48:25.968
Yes.

1094
00:48:25.968 --> 00:48:27.300
You know, he's been a stand-up comedian of

1095
00:48:27.300 --> 00:48:28.601
great success.

1096
00:48:28.601 --> 00:48:30.033
That's what.

1097
00:48:30.033 --> 00:48:31.634
Actor.

1098
00:48:31.634 --> 00:48:33.300
Yeah.

1099
00:48:33.300 --> 00:48:34.834
He influenced -- the comedy is genuinely funny.

1100
00:48:34.834 --> 00:48:36.467
Yeah.

1101
00:48:36.467 --> 00:48:37.934
As opposed to fake funny.

1102
00:48:37.934 --> 00:48:39.300
It's genuinely funny.

1103
00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:40.567
But does he write it all himself?

1104
00:48:40.567 --> 00:48:42.033
Absolutely.

1105
00:48:42.033 --> 00:48:43.601
OK.

1106
00:48:43.601 --> 00:48:45.067
Oh, yeah.

1107
00:48:45.067 --> 00:48:46.400
Woody writes everything himself.

1108
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:47.634
And make no mistake about it, Larry David is the auteur of

1109
00:48:47.634 --> 00:48:48.834
Curb Your Enthusiasm.

1110
00:48:48.834 --> 00:48:51.334
Right. Right.

1111
00:48:51.334 --> 00:48:52.601
Yeah.

1112
00:48:52.601 --> 00:48:54.033
So, he writes it all himself.

1113
00:48:54.033 --> 00:48:55.367
So, so - he's just as respected as you could be.

1114
00:48:55.367 --> 00:48:56.868
Johnny Carson.

1115
00:48:56.868 --> 00:48:58.267
You had the record second to somebody or  --

1116
00:48:58.267 --> 00:48:59.534
Yes.

1117
00:48:59.534 --> 00:49:00.767
Bob Hope did the most appearances, and I did the

1118
00:49:00.767 --> 00:49:01.901
second most appearances.

1119
00:49:01.901 --> 00:49:03.300
Amazing.

1120
00:49:03.300 --> 00:49:04.567
Yeah.

1121
00:49:04.567 --> 00:49:06.000
About 140, I think.

1122
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:07.367
Just chemistry with Carson?

1123
00:49:07.367 --> 00:49:08.868
Yes, yes.

1124
00:49:08.868 --> 00:49:10.400
The moment, right after that review, in '68  --

1125
00:49:10.400 --> 00:49:12.033
Yeah.

1126
00:49:12.033 --> 00:49:13.634
-- Carson invited me on the show.

1127
00:49:13.634 --> 00:49:15.334
And we just connected immediately.

1128
00:49:15.334 --> 00:49:17.067
We connected immediately.

1129
00:49:17.067 --> 00:49:18.901
And you know, I did stand-up, and then I sat down.

1130
00:49:18.901 --> 00:49:20.767
And for a few years on the show, I was doing stand-up.

1131
00:49:20.767 --> 00:49:23.100
And one of the things about doing stand-up when you are --

1132
00:49:23.100 --> 00:49:25.400
when you are -- when you are sitting down next to Carson

1133
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:27.734
after you talk to him, you know, stand-up comedians, you have to

1134
00:49:27.734 --> 00:49:30.000
sort of - you have to blow yourself up like a Thanksgiving

1135
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:32.200
Day balloon.

1136
00:49:32.200 --> 00:49:34.400
Because you have -- it's all about -- you are

1137
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:36.300
talking about yourself.

1138
00:49:36.300 --> 00:49:38.634
Right.

1139
00:49:38.634 --> 00:49:40.901
It's a very solipsistic, and

1140
00:49:40.901 --> 00:49:43.334
it's all about you.

1141
00:49:43.334 --> 00:49:45.801
And I realized I was running out of things to talk about, if

1142
00:49:45.801 --> 00:49:48.367
it was just going to be about me.

1143
00:49:48.367 --> 00:49:50.934
And then one of the appearances, I said to Johnny, I said, you

1144
00:49:50.934 --> 00:49:53.701
know, I'm just going to talk -- not talk about myself, but let's

1145
00:49:53.701 --> 00:49:56.634
talk about just what's in the news.

1146
00:49:56.634 --> 00:49:59.367
I would say Lakers and dating.

1147
00:49:59.367 --> 00:50:01.667
And -- but no notes, not -- nothing that he -- he wouldn't

1148
00:50:01.667 --> 00:50:03.667
-- I wouldn't be coordinated ahead of time, so he knew where

1149
00:50:03.667 --> 00:50:05.400
the material was and all of that.

1150
00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:07.200
Right. Right.

1151
00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:10.667
Right.

1152
00:50:10.667 --> 00:50:12.167
And he didn't like the idea.

1153
00:50:12.167 --> 00:50:13.767
He said no, I got to know where your outlines are; I've got to

1154
00:50:13.767 --> 00:50:15.467
know where this is and that.

1155
00:50:15.467 --> 00:50:17.267
But he tried it with me.

1156
00:50:17.267 --> 00:50:19.100
So he actually took a risk with you.

1157
00:50:19.100 --> 00:50:20.734
He took a risk with me.

1158
00:50:20.734 --> 00:50:22.434
No notes, I'll just go ahead  --

1159
00:50:22.434 --> 00:50:24.234
No notes, I will do that.

1160
00:50:24.234 --> 00:50:25.834
Right.

1161
00:50:25.834 --> 00:50:27.534
And what happened in that -- in that

1162
00:50:27.534 --> 00:50:29.033
material, is I sort of had my ideas of

1163
00:50:29.033 --> 00:50:30.667
beginning, middle and end.

1164
00:50:30.667 --> 00:50:32.567
I said, you can interrupt wherever you

1165
00:50:32.567 --> 00:50:34.868
want and all of that.

1166
00:50:34.868 --> 00:50:36.901
In that material, he was certainly funnier than I was or

1167
00:50:36.901 --> 00:50:39.567
as funny, and he could relax and get loose.

1168
00:50:39.567 --> 00:50:41.901
And it was about our connection as we sort of just dealt with

1169
00:50:41.901 --> 00:50:44.000
the subject comedically.

1170
00:50:44.000 --> 00:50:45.801
And I think that increased my longevity on the show by

1171
00:50:45.801 --> 00:50:47.400
another 15 years.

1172
00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:49.100
Because  --

1173
00:50:49.100 --> 00:50:50.901
He liked it.

1174
00:50:50.901 --> 00:50:52.734
Yes.

1175
00:50:52.734 --> 00:50:54.367
He liked the result of it.

1176
00:50:54.367 --> 00:50:55.667
He liked the result of it.

1177
00:50:55.667 --> 00:50:56.968
But he could only do it with you.

1178
00:50:56.968 --> 00:50:58.300
I bet you didn't  --

1179
00:50:58.300 --> 00:50:59.601
No, he had - he could do

1180
00:50:59.601 --> 00:51:00.901
it with a few people.

1181
00:51:00.901 --> 00:51:02.501
He had - he had go-to guys when someone would

1182
00:51:02.501 --> 00:51:03.934
drop out on the show.

1183
00:51:03.934 --> 00:51:05.501
Who were they?

1184
00:51:05.501 --> 00:51:06.934
Bob Newhart  --

1185
00:51:06.934 --> 00:51:08.267
Right.

1186
00:51:08.267 --> 00:51:09.734
Myself.

1187
00:51:09.734 --> 00:51:11.100
Rickles, maybe.

1188
00:51:11.100 --> 00:51:12.634
Rickles, yeah.

1189
00:51:12.634 --> 00:51:14.300
But - but Rickles was always in Vegas, Newhart was around.

1190
00:51:14.300 --> 00:51:16.133
Right.

1191
00:51:16.133 --> 00:51:18.367
But I think that Bob told me that the reason

1192
00:51:18.367 --> 00:51:20.267
he liked us so much is because he was as happy when we bombed

1193
00:51:20.267 --> 00:51:23.000
in front of the audience as when we succeeded.

1194
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:26.167
He would get a great kick out of seeing us struggle there.

1195
00:51:26.167 --> 00:51:28.767
Like that.

1196
00:51:28.767 --> 00:51:31.234
He, it is often said, cared more about making

1197
00:51:31.234 --> 00:51:33.334
the guest look good than anybody who has

1198
00:51:33.334 --> 00:51:35.734
ever sat on the chair.

1199
00:51:35.734 --> 00:51:38.300
No one could make anyone look as good in

1200
00:51:38.300 --> 00:51:40.501
front of an audience as Johnny.

1201
00:51:40.501 --> 00:51:42.634
When - when Carson, as opposed to the talk shows now, when

1202
00:51:42.634 --> 00:51:44.968
Carson -- let's just talk about the comedians.

1203
00:51:44.968 --> 00:51:47.801
Right.

1204
00:51:47.801 --> 00:51:50.400
When Carson said to Jerry Seinfeld, who

1205
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:52.934
talked to me about it on the air, when he said "you are

1206
00:51:52.934 --> 00:51:55.067
really funny, come on over and sit down," Jerry had a career

1207
00:51:55.067 --> 00:51:57.167
the next day.

1208
00:51:57.167 --> 00:51:59.067
He could ordain the culture, practically.

1209
00:51:59.067 --> 00:52:01.634
Wow.

1210
00:52:01.634 --> 00:52:03.767
It wasn't a power that he was looking for or

1211
00:52:03.767 --> 00:52:06.601
cared about.

1212
00:52:06.601 --> 00:52:09.234
When he would satirize Nixon, you knew that the world had

1213
00:52:09.234 --> 00:52:11.701
turned already.

1214
00:52:11.701 --> 00:52:14.067
Like Cronkite had turned against  --

1215
00:52:14.067 --> 00:52:16.334
Just perfect pitch for all that.

1216
00:52:16.334 --> 00:52:18.534
And all these comedians that I talked to, Charlie, you ask them

1217
00:52:18.534 --> 00:52:20.434
their most emotional, most exciting moment and all that --

1218
00:52:20.434 --> 00:52:22.100
"Tonight," first "Tonight Show," Johnny accepting.

1219
00:52:22.100 --> 00:52:23.868
"The Book of David" by David Steinberg.

1220
00:52:23.868 --> 00:52:25.434
I hope you'll come back.

1221
00:52:25.434 --> 00:52:26.934
This has been terrific.

1222
00:52:26.934 --> 00:52:28.367
Oh, Thank you, Charlie.

1223
00:52:28.367 --> 00:52:29.767
My pleasure.

1224
00:52:29.767 --> 00:52:31.334
Thank you.

1225
00:52:31.334 --> 00:52:32.868
Thank you for joining us.

1226
00:52:32.868 --> 
See you next time.