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Welcome to our broadcast.

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Tonight, former President Jimmy Carter will be here.

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Also, George Archibald.

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He is the Director of the International Crane Foundation,

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and he has devoted his life to saving those rare

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and beautiful birds.

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We begin with President Carter.

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He enjoyed a special moment at the White House three weeks ago,

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as he witnessed the historic signing of the Israeli and

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Palestinian Liberation Organization peace agreement.

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Fourteen years ago, it was Jimmy Carter who broke ground for

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wider peace in the Middle East as architect of the Camp David

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accord between Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and

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Israeli Prime Minister, Menachem Begin.

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Since leaving the Oval Office in 1981,

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President Carter continues

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to push for peace at the Carter Center in Atlanta which he and

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his wife, Roslyn, founded in 1982.

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The Center has mediated foreign conflicts, monitored elections

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in Nicaragua and Panama and Haiti and in other countries.

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As well, he has campaigned

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internationally for human rights.

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Talking Peace is Mr. Carter's new book for young adults.

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It is both a personal and a broad look at non-violent

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conflict resolution, both at home and abroad.

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I'm pleased to welcome him back. Welcome.

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Thank you, Charlie.

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It's nice to be here.

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I want to talk about this a little bit because

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it is fascinating.

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And, there is a direct contact to world events in a sense that

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we witnessed today whether we're talking

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about Somalia or whether

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we're talking about the Mid East accord and

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whether we're talking

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about conflict in Africa.

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This book points out the number of places in the world where

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people are fighting each other for land, for freedom, for a lot

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of other values, and I want to talk about that.

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First though, let me pike you back to that time when you came

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back to the White House, and you sat there and you watched peace

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-- at least an accord, an agreement

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symbolized by a handshake.

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Tell me what you thought and what you felt and what kind of

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moment that was for you as they signed it on the same table that

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Camp David had been signed.

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Well, a lot of people have

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forgotten the exact sequence.

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We spent 13 days locked up voluntarily at Camp David trying

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to negotiate an agreement between two leaders who had been

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at war four times.

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Their people had.

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And, who were totally and personally incompatible.

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I tried to negotiate in the same room with them.

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But, after the third day, they were so incompatible that all of

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us agreed that they shouldn't see each other any more.

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So, for the last ten days at Camp David, Begin and Sadat

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never saw each other.

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And, I went back and forth between them.

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It was on pins and needles.

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We didn't know until the last moment that they would finally

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agree on something.

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But, they did, and we flew back on a helicopter to the White

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House, and they signed the Camp David accords which is a

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framework for peace.

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And, which was then later adopted by the Israeli

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parliament, the Knesset.

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Since then, it has been a part of the Israeli law.

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But, a lot of people don't realize that on that framework,

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we then negotiated six more months.

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And, it was March of 1979 before the peace treaty between Israel

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and Egypt was concluded.

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And, that treaty now has been meticulously

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observed by both sides.

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Not a single word in that treaty has been violated.

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And, I think the fact that the most powerful Arab nation of all

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and Israel have been able to negotiate using the techniques

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of mediation that I describe in this book -- an agreement where

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both sides won.

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And, that it has been observed, shows everyone else in the

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Middle East region at least, that peace is possible.

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Why did it take them so long after Camp David to

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reach this point?

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I think for one reason -- Prime Minister Begin

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kind of backed off.

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He had done some things at Camp David, agreed to some things at

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Camp David that he swore he would never do.

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He had taken a solemn oath, "May my right hand

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fall off if I ever

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dismantle an Israeli settlement".

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And, that was a key issue that delayed the

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agreement at Camp David.

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But, eventually, we worked out a deal at Camp David so that he

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would not authorize the dismantling of a settlement.

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He would let the Knesset make that decision, the parliament.

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Which they did.

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So, his right hand wouldn't fall off.

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Yes, and he really went against the more

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conservative members of the Likud party which he headed.

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In fact, a lot -- most of the leaders who have been in the

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Israeli government under the Likud party did not vote for

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Camp David.

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And, I have had them condemn me very severely even for the peace

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treaty agreement with Egypt when the Israelis gave

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up the Sinai Desert.

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But, 85% of the Knesset members did vote for Camp David.

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So, it took a long time to bring them up to the point of

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seriously considering a permanent peace treaty.

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And, the Israeli withdrawal from the Sinai Desert region, which

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belonged to Egypt, was a very difficult thing for them to do.

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What is interesting though is that

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Menachem Begin was willing to give the Palestinians more than

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this agreement gives them.

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That's right.

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I wrote the Camp David accords with my own fountain pen on a

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scratch pad, and I put down that the Palestinians should have

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autonomy during the transition period.

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Begin said, no, no -- let's make this full autonomy.

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And so, full is in the Camp David text, put

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in there by Begin.

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As a matter of fact until recently, the Palestinians have

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had zero autonomy.

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But, under the new agreement between the PLO and the

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Israelis, they will get autonomy in the Gaza

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Strip and in Jericho.

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So, in most cases, the Palestinians did not get as much

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in this agreement as they would have gotten if they had adopted

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Camp David.

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But, in some key issues they have gotten a little bit more.

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For instance, one of the things that I could never get Prime

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Minister Begin to agree to was to let the Palestinians in East

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Jerusalem either vote in the election to choose their own

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leaders or to run for office.

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In Norway, they decided to let the Palestinians in East

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Jerusalem both vote and seek office.

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So, that's a step in the right direction.

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When you look forward, do you think that they

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will ever be able to reach some agreement on Jerusalem?

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Because if you listen to Arafat, he is saying one thing, and if

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you listen to Rabin, he is saying

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something quite different.

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Well, I think the answer is yes.

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And, what would it be?

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Well, at Camp David, I crafted a paragraph

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about Jerusalem.

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Begin accepted it, and Sadat accepted it.

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As the days percolated by, both of them got very nervous because

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they were plowing new ground, you might say, in the overall

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Camp David accord.

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So, both of them came to me independently and said,

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Mr. President, please leave out the paragraph on Jerusalem.

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So, I got some nice deals from them.

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Because you were willing to leave out Jerusalem.

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Because I was willing to leave it out.

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Well, basically, it said that Jerusalem

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would never be divided.

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That the holy places would be sacrosanct and would be operated

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by the believers in that particular faith, and that there

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would be a joint committee that would manage the

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affairs of East Jerusalem.

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The collection of garbage and the repair of the streets,

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things of that kind.

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That's such a sensitive issue still though that I think it's

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going to be one of the last things on which they will agree.

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But, if the Palestinians and the Israelis can just prove during

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this scheduled interim period that they can live in harmony,

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live in peace, get to trust each other.

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Reduce the level of violence.

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I think it will make it much easier in the future to work out

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a common agreement on East Jerusalem.

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I don't think any Israeli that would be willing to separate

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Jerusalem into two parts or to give up a strong voice in the

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permanent arrangement of Jerusalem's affairs.

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If you start talking about words like

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sovereignty, it becomes very sticky.

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Well, one of the big arguments that Begin and

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Sadat had -- I tried to get Sadat to yield on this at an

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early morning walk before daybreak, as a matter of fact.

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And, that is whether the flags of the individual entities could

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fly over the holy places.

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Sadat insisted the flags must fly, and Sadat said no flag can

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fly in East Jerusalem except the Israeli flag.

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So, finally we backed away from Jerusalem.

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In another book I wrote later called Blood of Abraham, I

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actually had the text of that paragraph in that book.

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And , it might be a guide to the future.

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What's fascinating about this -- and I

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want to move to some other hotspots.

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What's fascinating about this, too, is how much time you spent

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before bringing these two leaders together

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to understand them.

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Give me a little sense of what you understood about Menachem

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Begin and about Anwar Sadat that made you a) believe it was

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possible for them to reach an agreement.

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And, b) it would be very difficult.

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Well, within the total intelligence network of

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our country, there is a group of historians and anthropologists

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and sociologists and psychiatrists and psychologists

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who analyzed the character of leaders in the world that are

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very important to us.

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I had directed them to do a complete analysis as best they

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could of the psychological make-up of Begin and Sadat.

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Let me just interrupt one second.

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Did you get that before every meeting with every head of state

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that you had before you had a meeting?

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No, no.

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That was not necessary.

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But, when it was an important -- like Brezhnev or Marshall Tito,

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I did.

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Or, Deng Xiaoping when we normalized relations with China.

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But, in this case, I took these two big briefing books out to

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Idaho, as a matter of fact.

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And, I had a brief vacation.

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And, I studied these books.

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And, it was obvious to me that the men were totally different

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in many ways.

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Both strong.

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Both courageous.

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Both dedicated to leadership and capable, but different.

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I'll just give you one quick example to save time.

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Under pressure, Begin resorted to minutiae.

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He would go into the details of a sentence -- the commas and the

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exact semantics of a word.

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So, under pressure, he would go into the details.

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Under pressure, Sadat would revert to generalities.

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To global issues.

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To concepts.

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Concepts.

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And so, that was just one example.

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And, at Camp David, Sadat was much more forthcoming.

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Sadat, in effect, trusted me too much.

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In effect he said, with just two exceptions -- anything you say,

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I will accept it for Egypt.

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Begin didn't trust me enough.

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Another difference was that Sadat was the most eager of all

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the Egyptians at Camp David to reach an agreement.

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Begin was the most reluctant Israeli at Camp David to reach

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an agreement.

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So, knowing how different they were, and since as I said

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earlier, they never saw each other over the last ten days --

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I was able to go back and forth and work out an (arrangement).

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It's fascinating history.

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Couple of things also about more recent history.

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You knew about the meetings in Oslo before President Clinton

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knew probably.

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Yes, I knew about the direct talks as early as

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June -- the middle of June.

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How did you know?

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I went to the Global Conference on Human

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Rights in Vienna, and the foreign minister of Israel was

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there, Shimon Peres.

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He asked me to meet with him late at night.

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We actually met in the private living room of the

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President of Austria.

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And, he told me that they had agreed -- the Israelis had -- to

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withdraw completely from the Gaza Strip.

257
00:12:07.868 --> 00:12:10.234
They were offering that to the Palestinians, and he also said

258
00:12:10.234 --> 00:12:12.601
that they were contemplating adding on as a bonus withdrawing

259
00:12:12.601 --> 00:12:15.667
from Jericho.

260
00:12:15.667 --> 00:12:18.267
That was not certain then.

261
00:12:18.267 --> 00:12:20.734
So, I knew about the back (channel).

262
00:12:20.734 --> 00:12:23.501
And also, have met frequently with PLO leaders even though our

263
00:12:23.501 --> 00:12:26.434
country would not.

264
00:12:26.434 --> 00:12:29.033
And, I've met on occasion with Arafat as well.

265
00:12:29.033 --> 00:12:32.067
And, there was never any doubt in my mind that the West Bank

266
00:12:32.067 --> 00:12:35.000
and Gaza Palestinian delegation were answering directly to

267
00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.834
Arafat in Tunis.

268
00:12:37.834 --> 00:12:40.601
So, in effect, they were promoted by the Western media as

269
00:12:40.601 --> 00:12:43.434
the spokespersons for the Palestinians when actually

270
00:12:43.434 --> 00:12:45.901
Arafat never relinquished control.

271
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And, whenever the Palestinian delegation would come to the

272
00:12:47.767 --> 00:12:49.634
United States to negotiate, they would come down to Atlanta and

273
00:12:49.634 --> 00:12:51.501
talk to me about the details.

274
00:12:51.501 --> 00:12:53.334
When you do this, do you feel a

275
00:12:53.334 --> 00:12:55.200
responsibility to

276
00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:57.133
report back to -- when you hear things like that -- to report to

277
00:12:57.133 --> 00:12:58.868
President Clinton -- .

278
00:12:58.868 --> 00:13:00.400
Yes.

279
00:13:00.400 --> 00:13:02.033
Or, to the Secretary of State

280
00:13:02.033 --> 00:13:05.667
or whoever it is. (inaudible)

281
00:13:05.667 --> 00:13:07.934
I do, and when I make a trip overseas -- every

282
00:13:07.934 --> 00:13:10.267
time I make a trip overseas on the way home I type on my own

283
00:13:10.267 --> 00:13:12.534
little portable computer a trip report.

284
00:13:12.534 --> 00:13:14.767
And, when President Reagan and Bush and Clinton were in office

285
00:13:14.767 --> 00:13:17.267
and their Secretaries of State -- the next day after I get home

286
00:13:17.267 --> 00:13:19.400
I send them my personal trip report.

287
00:13:19.400 --> 00:13:22.033
Any difference in the response or the nature of

288
00:13:22.033 --> 00:13:24.267
the response from the Clinton administration than it was from

289
00:13:24.267 --> 00:13:26.367
the Bush administration?

290
00:13:26.367 --> 00:13:28.167
I don't know if you want me to tell you the

291
00:13:28.167 --> 00:13:30.434
truth or not?

292
00:13:30.434 --> 00:13:32.834
Yes, I do.

293
00:13:32.834 --> 00:13:35.501
Okay.

294
00:13:35.501 --> 00:13:37.701
Of course, I want you to tell the truth.

295
00:13:37.701 --> 00:13:40.267
President Bush and Secretary Baker were very

296
00:13:40.267 --> 00:13:43.667
interested in having me involved in areas where they couldn't

297
00:13:43.667 --> 00:13:47.000
involve themselves.

298
00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.033
For instance, the -- when Bush and Baker decided to end the

299
00:13:50.033 --> 00:13:52.667
military support for the contra army, Secretary Baker came down

300
00:13:52.667 --> 00:13:55.634
to the Carter Center and met with me and met with some Latin

301
00:13:55.634 --> 00:13:58.567
American leaders and said, this is what we are going to work out

302
00:13:58.567 --> 00:14:01.501
with the Congress.

303
00:14:01.501 --> 00:14:04.300
So, with their full support and knowledge, I went into Nicaragua

304
00:14:04.300 --> 00:14:06.701
and helped to orchestrate the election there.

305
00:14:06.701 --> 00:14:09.167
And, it ended the war, and I stayed and negotiated between

306
00:14:09.167 --> 00:14:11.300
the Sandinistas and Mrs. Chamorro, who is the

307
00:14:11.300 --> 00:14:13.801
present President.

308
00:14:13.801 --> 00:14:17.000
I did the same thing in Panama and the same

309
00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:20.534
thing later in Haiti.

310
00:14:20.534 --> 00:14:24.133
When President Clinton came in and most of his foreign affairs

311
00:14:24.133 --> 00:14:27.300
leaders worked for me, they pretty well cut off that avenue

312
00:14:27.300 --> 00:14:30.467
of sharing.

313
00:14:30.467 --> 00:14:33.100
Until recently, I have been quite disturbed about it because

314
00:14:33.100 --> 00:14:35.834
there are some things that a government cannot do.

315
00:14:35.834 --> 00:14:38.534
The government can't meet with Arafat.

316
00:14:38.534 --> 00:14:40.801
I can meet with Arafat.

317
00:14:40.801 --> 00:14:43.901
Not as a delegation from the government, but on my own

318
00:14:43.901 --> 00:14:46.968
initiative as a college professor and as head of the

319
00:14:46.968 --> 00:14:49.834
Carter Center.

320
00:14:49.834 --> 00:14:52.267
When we withdrew our ambassador from Syria, years back, the

321
00:14:52.267 --> 00:14:55.000
National Security Advisor for President Reagan called me.

322
00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:57.601
The National Security Advisor had also worked

323
00:14:57.601 --> 00:15:00.467
for me, Frank Carlucci.

324
00:15:00.467 --> 00:15:03.300
And, he gave me an agenda of things I should talk to Assad

325
00:15:03.300 --> 00:15:05.901
about when I went to Damascus.

326
00:15:05.901 --> 00:15:08.834
So, I had been displaced at the relationship with the Clinton

327
00:15:08.834 --> 00:15:11.634
administration until a couple of weeks ago.

328
00:15:11.634 --> 00:15:14.267
And, I let them know that I was displeased.

329
00:15:14.267 --> 00:15:16.634
And, I can say now that all of those displeasures have been

330
00:15:16.634 --> 00:15:19.067
alleviated, and we have a very good working relationship now.

331
00:15:19.067 --> 00:15:21.601
Why do you think it was true though?

332
00:15:21.601 --> 00:15:23.734
Why was that coldness there?

333
00:15:23.734 --> 00:15:25.834
Warren Christopher was your Deputy Secretary of State?

334
00:15:25.834 --> 00:15:27.901
And, people at the National Security Council.

335
00:15:27.901 --> 00:15:29.968
I know.

336
00:15:29.968 --> 00:15:32.000
This is a little embarrassing to me.

337
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.033
Help us understand.

338
00:15:34.033 --> 00:15:36.334
I've never said this this publicly, but I think

339
00:15:36.334 --> 00:15:38.334
part of it was when President Clinton was first choosing his

340
00:15:38.334 --> 00:15:40.067
cabinet members and the top leaders in his administration,

341
00:15:40.067 --> 00:15:41.601
almost everyone he chose in foreign policy

342
00:15:41.601 --> 00:15:43.267
had worked for me.

343
00:15:43.267 --> 00:15:45.000
It's almost inevitable.

344
00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:46.634
Sure.

345
00:15:46.634 --> 00:15:48.901
I went back to the Kennedy and Johnson

346
00:15:48.901 --> 00:15:51.167
administration to get qualified people who had worked for a

347
00:15:51.167 --> 00:15:53.467
Democratic president.

348
00:15:53.467 --> 00:15:55.434
And, Clinton was ridiculed or criticized because it was a

349
00:15:55.434 --> 00:15:57.167
resurrected Carter foreign policy -- .

350
00:15:57.167 --> 00:15:58.968
And, they kind of avoided

351
00:15:58.968 --> 00:16:00.567
that during the campaign.

352
00:16:00.567 --> 00:16:02.267
Being reminded of you.

353
00:16:02.267 --> 00:16:04.033
I think in the campaign, and also when he went

354
00:16:04.033 --> 00:16:05.901
into office.

355
00:16:05.901 --> 00:16:07.834
I imagine -- I don't know that they were sitting around the

356
00:16:07.834 --> 00:16:09.734
Oval Office one day, and Clinton may have said, we need to back

357
00:16:09.734 --> 00:16:12.334
away from the Carter times.

358
00:16:12.334 --> 00:16:14.801
And, when a president says something like that, it has

359
00:16:14.801 --> 00:16:16.968
profound influence.

360
00:16:16.968 --> 00:16:19.434
And, Secretary Christopher a couple of weeks ago told me that

361
00:16:19.434 --> 00:16:21.934
in a way, Mr. President, we may have kind of

362
00:16:21.934 --> 00:16:24.100
taken you for granted.

363
00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:26.701
When we have a problem, we want it to be a bipartisan approach,

364
00:16:26.701 --> 00:16:29.734
and so we would be more inclined to reach out to a former

365
00:16:29.734 --> 00:16:32.868
Republican president.

366
00:16:32.868 --> 00:16:35.634
And, we kind of assumed that you were always part of our team.

367
00:16:35.634 --> 00:16:38.467
But, I think now that they know that the Carter Center and I,

368
00:16:38.467 --> 00:16:40.501
personally, can do some things -- and will do things that they

369
00:16:40.501 --> 00:16:42.567
can't do officially.

370
00:16:42.567 --> 00:16:44.634
I think they will be calling on us and communicating more.

371
00:16:44.634 --> 00:16:46.701
And, it's fair to say to

372
00:16:46.701 --> 00:16:48.767
you, you have a different

373
00:16:48.767 --> 00:16:51.000
level of respect within the world community because of the

374
00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:52.901
things that you have done since you left the White House.

375
00:16:52.901 --> 00:16:54.868
Yes.

376
00:16:54.868 --> 00:16:57.033
The American government has never had any

377
00:16:57.033 --> 00:16:59.434
interest much in Africa.

378
00:16:59.434 --> 00:17:01.901
Most of our work at the Carter Center is in Africa because

379
00:17:01.901 --> 00:17:04.300
those are the countries where nobody wants to visit.

380
00:17:04.300 --> 00:17:06.567
And, not just in settling conflict, but also in

381
00:17:06.567 --> 00:17:08.534
terms of nutrition and in terms of immunization a lot of other

382
00:17:08.534 --> 00:17:10.501
things, in effect to help the people -- .

383
00:17:10.501 --> 00:17:12.467
Eradicating diseases.

384
00:17:12.467 --> 00:17:14.467
Planting crops.

385
00:17:14.467 --> 00:17:16.200
Let me make one point before we go on.

386
00:17:16.200 --> 00:17:18.000
Is that a lot of things did change between Camp David and

387
00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:19.868
this new accord that had a real influence on the

388
00:17:19.868 --> 00:17:22.133
forces at work there.

389
00:17:22.133 --> 00:17:24.534
You had the end of the Cold War.

390
00:17:24.534 --> 00:17:26.834
You had the Gulf War in which Arafat supported the wrong guy.

391
00:17:26.834 --> 00:17:29.434
And then, you had in addition to that, you had the rise of

392
00:17:29.434 --> 00:17:32.300
Islamic fundamentalism which they all seem to be fearful of

393
00:17:32.300 --> 00:17:34.734
and those factors were out there.

394
00:17:34.734 --> 00:17:37.501
May I move now to today's headlines which is -- Pentagon

395
00:17:37.501 --> 00:17:39.934
changes its Somalia goals as effort

396
00:17:39.934 --> 00:17:43.467
falters, focuses on rebuilding.

397
00:17:43.467 --> 00:17:46.834
Warlords' capture not deemed vital as US seeks to shed the

398
00:17:46.834 --> 00:17:50.400
image of combatant.

399
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:53.334
My question is what happened in Somalia to lead us to a point

400
00:17:53.334 --> 00:17:55.968
and a policy that you strongly disagree with?

401
00:17:55.968 --> 00:17:58.567
Let me give you one other example as a prelude

402
00:17:58.567 --> 00:18:01.501
to my answer.

403
00:18:01.501 --> 00:18:05.100
Take Sudan.

404
00:18:05.100 --> 00:18:08.901
Sudan is the worst conflict on earth.

405
00:18:08.901 --> 00:18:12.868
It's worse as far as deaths and casualties and suffering and the

406
00:18:12.868 --> 00:18:16.734
potential adverse impact on the surrounding area than Somalia

407
00:18:16.734 --> 00:18:20.534
and Bosnia and Mozambique put together.

408
00:18:20.534 --> 00:18:23.868
Here is a case where we don't have a way for our government to

409
00:18:23.868 --> 00:18:26.901
communicate with the leaders in the Khartoum who are

410
00:18:26.901 --> 00:18:29.701
fundamentalist Muslims and the revolutionaries i the south who

411
00:18:29.701 --> 00:18:32.968
are basically Christians.

412
00:18:32.968 --> 00:18:36.033
And, the United Nations can't get involved in it.

413
00:18:36.033 --> 00:18:39.467
And, this is typical of a civil war.

414
00:18:39.467 --> 00:18:42.767
It's totally inappropriate for a member of -- representative of

415
00:18:42.767 --> 00:18:45.901
the United Nations.

416
00:18:45.901 --> 00:18:48.501
Or, a member of a US embassy staff even to communicate with

417
00:18:48.501 --> 00:18:50.934
revolutionaries who are trying to overthrow a government that

418
00:18:50.934 --> 00:18:53.767
is a member of the United Nations or to whom our

419
00:18:53.767 --> 00:18:56.434
ambassador is (accredited).

420
00:18:56.434 --> 00:18:59.934
I don't have any such restraints.

421
00:18:59.934 --> 00:19:02.901
I can go in and meet with whom I choose and go where I wish and

422
00:19:02.901 --> 00:19:05.601
talk about any subject that pleases me.

423
00:19:05.601 --> 00:19:07.968
So, I constantly relate to unsavory people like Arafat was.

424
00:19:07.968 --> 00:19:10.667
Like Aidid.

425
00:19:10.667 --> 00:19:13.400
And like Aidid.

426
00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:16.234
This brings us down to Somalia.

427
00:19:16.234 --> 00:19:18.968
I think that it was very admirable that we decided to

428
00:19:18.968 --> 00:19:22.400
alleviate the suffering of the Somali people by sending in UN

429
00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:25.667
forces, most of which were Americans.

430
00:19:25.667 --> 00:19:28.467
Lately though, I think it has been a disaster where Admiral

431
00:19:28.467 --> 00:19:31.067
Howe over there has taken as a primary goal of his of his

432
00:19:31.067 --> 00:19:34.267
tenure in Somalia the capture or killing of Aidid.

433
00:19:34.267 --> 00:19:37.367
I've never met Aidid.

434
00:19:37.367 --> 00:19:40.467
I don't know if he's a criminal or not.

435
00:19:40.467 --> 00:19:44.567
The fact is that Aidid is a hero now throughout Somalia.

436
00:19:44.567 --> 00:19:47.167
Not only in his own tribe but among other tribes as well.

437
00:19:47.167 --> 00:19:49.801
But clearly, men fighting under his command have

438
00:19:49.801 --> 00:19:52.400
committed some atrocities and have attacked UN forces.

439
00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:55.033
Yes. Again, I'm reluctant to get

440
00:19:55.033 --> 00:19:57.634
involved in this.

441
00:19:57.634 --> 00:20:05.033
What is an atrocity? Yes.

442
00:20:05.033 --> 00:20:08.334
A few weeks ago, American Cobra helicopters attacked a group of

443
00:20:08.334 --> 00:20:11.868
civilians and killed more than a hundred women and children.

444
00:20:11.868 --> 00:20:15.033
Our point of view is that Aidid has put these women and children

445
00:20:15.033 --> 00:20:18.400
up as a shield around himself.

446
00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.634
The fact is, that Aidid has got about 50,000 members of his own

447
00:20:21.634 --> 00:20:23.801
tribe in Mogadishu.

448
00:20:23.801 --> 00:20:25.968
They look upon him as a hero who overthrew the Siad Barre regime

449
00:20:25.968 --> 00:20:28.100
and who cooperated with the United Nations ahead of time.

450
00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:30.267
So, we make him a martyr by

451
00:20:30.267 --> 00:20:32.434
making him the object

452
00:20:32.434 --> 00:20:35.067
of our search.

453
00:20:35.067 --> 00:20:38.167
For a while, he was the preeminent warlord but

454
00:20:38.167 --> 00:20:41.467
just one of a crowd.

455
00:20:41.467 --> 00:20:44.934
Now, he's become the preeminent warlord and a hero.

456
00:20:44.934 --> 00:20:48.501
And, last night, I was talking to leaders of a country near --

457
00:20:48.501 --> 00:20:52.501
in East Africa, Eritrea.

458
00:20:52.501 --> 00:20:56.133
They sent a delegation to Mogadishu at my request to

459
00:20:56.133 --> 00:20:59.667
investigate the situation and to talk to Aidid's leaders.

460
00:20:59.667 --> 00:21:02.801
And, what they told me now was that now the other tribal

461
00:21:02.801 --> 00:21:05.400
members are supporting Aidid whereas formerly they were

462
00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.300
looked upon as opponents of Aidid.

463
00:21:08.300 --> 00:21:10.868
Let's get down to the basic point.

464
00:21:10.868 --> 00:21:13.601
What do we do about it?

465
00:21:13.601 --> 00:21:16.767
Do we continue to try to attack civilians on the streets who are

466
00:21:16.767 --> 00:21:19.701
loyal to Aidid?

467
00:21:19.701 --> 00:21:22.868
Or, do we try to work out a peaceful resolution of the Aidid

468
00:21:22.868 --> 00:21:26.400
problem and revert to the humanitarian effort that is now

469
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.267
being interrupted by this altercation?

470
00:21:29.267 --> 00:21:32.200
I think we ought to always keep open a channel of communications

471
00:21:32.200 --> 00:21:35.067
with even an unsavory leader if his own people are

472
00:21:35.067 --> 00:21:37.701
suffering, in particular.

473
00:21:37.701 --> 00:21:40.200
Or, if we don't want to get engaged in war.

474
00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:42.968
I think it would be a serious mistake for American troops to

475
00:21:42.968 --> 00:21:45.501
be withdrawn from Mogadishu.

476
00:21:45.501 --> 00:21:48.133
But, I think it will be a serious mistake to for us to

477
00:21:48.133 --> 00:21:51.000
continue as a high priority the killing or capture of Aidid

478
00:21:51.000 --> 00:21:54.234
which is probably impossible.

479
00:21:54.234 --> 00:21:57.300
We couldn't kill or capture Saddam Hussein.

480
00:21:57.300 --> 00:22:00.100
President Reagan tried to bomb Tripoli and kill Gaddafi.

481
00:22:00.100 --> 00:22:02.734
It was a little different though.

482
00:22:02.734 --> 00:22:04.934
We didn't have troops in Baghdad.

483
00:22:04.934 --> 00:22:07.133
I know it's different.

484
00:22:07.133 --> 00:22:09.300
I'm not drawing an exact parallel.

485
00:22:09.300 --> 00:22:11.467
But, there is a parallel.

486
00:22:11.467 --> 00:22:13.601
And, we've tried for 30 years to get rid of Castro.

487
00:22:13.601 --> 00:22:15.801
In the meantime, the people under Castro suffer.

488
00:22:15.801 --> 00:22:18.267
The people under Saddam Hussein suffer, and the people in

489
00:22:18.267 --> 00:22:20.767
Mogadishu are suffering because the supplies are not being

490
00:22:20.767 --> 00:22:23.300
delivered properly and because war takes place on the street.

491
00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:25.734
So, I think that in every case when there is a war in the

492
00:22:25.734 --> 00:22:28.968
world, or an altercation, we ought to have some means by

493
00:22:28.968 --> 00:22:32.167
which the war would be addressed through mediation, through

494
00:22:32.167 --> 00:22:35.367
negotiation, through communication.

495
00:22:35.367 --> 00:22:38.534
Through some means that would substitute a peaceful resolution

496
00:22:38.534 --> 00:22:42.000
for a war-like and combat solution.

497
00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.133
What would you do now in Somalia?

498
00:22:45.133 --> 00:22:48.167
You would try to open up conversations with Aidid?

499
00:22:48.167 --> 00:22:51.033
He had you deliver a letter to Warren Christopher at the time

500
00:22:51.033 --> 00:22:53.434
of the signing of the peace accord.

501
00:22:53.434 --> 00:22:55.968
About four weeks ago, Aidid contacted me.

502
00:22:55.968 --> 00:22:58.300
I'm in Africa often because that's where most

503
00:22:58.300 --> 00:23:00.968
of our work is.

504
00:23:00.968 --> 00:23:03.200
And, he asked if he could send a delegation to talk to me.

505
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:05.367
I'm very sensitive about this.

506
00:23:05.367 --> 00:23:07.667
So, I contacted directly the State Department

507
00:23:07.667 --> 00:23:09.601
and the United Nations.

508
00:23:09.601 --> 00:23:11.567
I said I've had a request from Aidid.

509
00:23:11.567 --> 00:23:13.534
Is it okay with both of you for Aidid to communicate with me?

510
00:23:13.534 --> 00:23:15.801
They said yes.

511
00:23:15.801 --> 00:23:18.834
They thought it would be helpful.

512
00:23:18.834 --> 00:23:21.801
So, he had a delegation come down to Atlanta, and they

513
00:23:21.801 --> 00:23:24.767
explained their version of this very complicated situation.

514
00:23:24.767 --> 00:23:27.133
So, to make a long story short, one of the things that came out

515
00:23:27.133 --> 00:23:29.534
of that was a thought that maybe a nearby

516
00:23:29.534 --> 00:23:31.901
country in East Africa,

517
00:23:31.901 --> 00:23:34.267
near Somalia, would accept Aidid to come to that

518
00:23:34.267 --> 00:23:36.634
country while an

519
00:23:36.634 --> 00:23:39.367
investigation was made of allegations against Aidid.

520
00:23:39.367 --> 00:23:42.267
So, I visited two or three of those countries, and in effect,

521
00:23:42.267 --> 00:23:45.434
asked them to do this.

522
00:23:45.434 --> 00:23:48.634
And, they have done so.

523
00:23:48.634 --> 00:23:51.868
When I got back to the United States from the last visit to

524
00:23:51.868 --> 00:23:55.067
Africa, I had a letter from Aidid saying that he had thought

525
00:23:55.067 --> 00:23:58.267
it over, and he had decided that he would accept

526
00:23:58.267 --> 00:24:01.467
the findings and

527
00:24:01.467 --> 00:24:04.834
the recommendations of an international investigative

528
00:24:04.834 --> 00:24:09.067
group that would be appointed totally, every member, by the UN

529
00:24:09.067 --> 00:24:12.801
Security Council.

530
00:24:12.801 --> 00:24:15.033
Not half by him and half by them.

531
00:24:15.033 --> 00:24:17.234
But, that the UN Security Council would appoint a group --

532
00:24:17.234 --> 00:24:19.467
He'd accept the findings.

533
00:24:19.467 --> 00:24:21.701
He had said -- to use his exact words -- I will

534
00:24:21.701 --> 00:24:23.934
accept the findings and the decisions.

535
00:24:23.934 --> 00:24:25.934
I am quoting verbatim from his (inaudible).

536
00:24:25.934 --> 00:24:27.701
He also asked me to mediate.

537
00:24:27.701 --> 00:24:29.534
I'm not looking for a mediation job.

538
00:24:29.534 --> 00:24:31.133
I never have met Aidid.

539
00:24:31.133 --> 00:24:32.834
I don't know Aidid.

540
00:24:32.834 --> 00:24:34.400
Don't know if he's guilty or innocent.

541
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:36.300
Maybe he is guilty.

542
00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:38.400
Well, anyway, I think this is a kind of avenue that

543
00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:40.634
ought to be explored.

544
00:24:40.634 --> 00:24:42.901
So, I immediately shared his letter with the Secretary

545
00:24:42.901 --> 00:24:45.534
General of the United Nations and with the Secretary of State

546
00:24:45.534 --> 00:24:48.634
in Washington, Warren Christopher.

547
00:24:48.634 --> 00:24:51.767
What's going to happen --I don't know.

548
00:24:51.767 --> 00:24:54.701
I hope that President Clinton's statement to the United Nations

549
00:24:54.701 --> 00:24:57.200
yesterday would be followed and the criticisms from our own

550
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.834
Congress will be considered carefully.

551
00:24:59.834 --> 00:25:01.601
People like Robert Byrd who is saying, get

552
00:25:01.601 --> 00:25:03.367
out of there.

553
00:25:03.367 --> 00:25:05.167
I don't agree with getting out of there, but I

554
00:25:05.167 --> 00:25:06.934
do agree that we ought to try to find a political

555
00:25:06.934 --> 00:25:08.701
solution to the

556
00:25:08.701 --> 00:25:10.701
problem in Mogadishu and not just a

557
00:25:10.701 --> 00:25:12.734
military solution (inaudible).

558
00:25:12.734 --> 00:25:14.467
And, what has happened in the last several

559
00:25:14.467 --> 00:25:16.000
months has exacerbated the opportunity.

560
00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:17.534
Has made more difficult the opportunity of finding a

561
00:25:17.534 --> 00:25:19.067
political solution?

562
00:25:19.067 --> 00:25:20.601
That's because we don't have any

563
00:25:20.601 --> 00:25:22.100
means by which we

564
00:25:22.100 --> 00:25:24.067
can even communicate with Aidid.

565
00:25:24.067 --> 00:25:26.033
Because he's in hiding.

566
00:25:26.033 --> 00:25:28.000
Yes, he's in hiding.

567
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:30.000
Actually, he's in the southern part of Mogadishu.

568
00:25:30.000 --> 00:25:31.968
I think everybody realizes that.

569
00:25:31.968 --> 00:25:33.968
But, everybody says -- is it that the Marines

570
00:25:33.968 --> 00:25:35.968
can't find him and everybody else can find him?

571
00:25:35.968 --> 00:25:38.601
He's surrounded by half the population of

572
00:25:38.601 --> 00:25:41.234
Mogadishu who are totally loyal to him.

573
00:25:41.234 --> 00:25:43.667
Many of whom will lay down their lives for him.

574
00:25:43.667 --> 00:25:46.267
He's not a lonely person who is in hiding in a basement -- .

575
00:25:46.267 --> 00:25:48.467
He's a fugitive on the lamb.

576
00:25:48.467 --> 00:25:50.701
No, in fact, many people in Somalia give Aidid

577
00:25:50.701 --> 00:25:53.934
major credit for overthrowing Siad Barre who

578
00:25:53.934 --> 00:25:57.234
was a terrible dictator.

579
00:25:57.234 --> 00:26:00.501
So, more than in bringing to this state.

580
00:26:00.501 --> 00:26:03.467
But, I think that Aidid -- he may be totally guilty.

581
00:26:03.467 --> 00:26:06.200
But, this is a typical example of a serious military

582
00:26:06.200 --> 00:26:08.534
confrontation where there is no peaceful alternative.

583
00:26:08.534 --> 00:26:11.133
Let me take it one -- this is in his book.

584
00:26:11.133 --> 00:26:14.334
Take it one step further, and then I want to

585
00:26:14.334 --> 00:26:17.400
get to Bosnia, too.

586
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:19.968
Is that you believe that perhaps the Gulf War was not necessary?

587
00:26:19.968 --> 00:26:22.367
That mediation and communication could have prevented that war,

588
00:26:22.367 --> 00:26:24.434
and it may have been a mistake to take the course we did, when

589
00:26:24.434 --> 00:26:26.234
we did.

590
00:26:26.234 --> 00:26:28.434
That's exactly right.

591
00:26:28.434 --> 00:26:31.000
No one ever knows.

592
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.200
But, I think that -- .

593
00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:35.901
This was a very popular war with America.

594
00:26:35.901 --> 00:26:45.033
A war -- wisely or not -- is

595
00:26:45.033 --> 00:26:52.601
almost always popular.

596
00:26:52.601 --> 00:26:58.534
A president that is just down on his luck and who has bad poll

597
00:26:58.534 --> 00:27:03.501
results, who sends American troops into battle --

598
00:27:03.501 --> 00:27:07.701
immediately can count on a 15% or 20% or 25%

599
00:27:07.701 --> 00:27:11.367
increase in his popularity.

600
00:27:11.367 --> 00:27:14.601
But, it won't necessarily stay there.

601
00:27:14.601 --> 00:27:17.534
No, but see he changes from a civilian,

602
00:27:17.534 --> 00:27:20.000
beleaguered, working on budgets and so forth to the

603
00:27:20.000 --> 00:27:22.067
Commander-in-Chief of the American -- .

604
00:27:22.067 --> 00:27:24.133
And, there's a bipartisan

605
00:27:24.133 --> 00:27:25.934
rallying behind the Commander-in-Chief.

606
00:27:25.934 --> 00:27:27.801
Sure, there is.

607
00:27:27.801 --> 00:27:29.434
Two weeks after our Marines were killed in Lebanon, President

608
00:27:29.434 --> 00:27:30.701
Reagan invaded Grenada.

609
00:27:30.701 --> 00:27:31.934
And immediately, Lebanon was forgotten, and

610
00:27:31.934 --> 00:27:33.167
Grenada came along.

611
00:27:33.167 --> 00:27:34.434
And, you believe that also was an

612
00:27:34.434 --> 00:27:35.667
unnecessary use

613
00:27:35.667 --> 00:27:37.334
of military force?

614
00:27:37.334 --> 00:27:38.834
I do.

615
00:27:38.834 --> 00:27:40.200
There was no effort made to resolve it peacefully.

616
00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:41.734
And, was Panama an unnecessary use

617
00:27:41.734 --> 00:27:43.400
of military force?

618
00:27:43.400 --> 00:27:45.133
I think so.

619
00:27:45.133 --> 00:27:46.934
I believe that we should have worked through the Organization

620
00:27:46.934 --> 00:27:48.767
of American States, through a collection of strong Western

621
00:27:48.767 --> 00:27:50.434
Hemispheric leaders including the United States.

622
00:27:50.434 --> 00:27:52.167
And, it could have been resolved in that fashion.

623
00:27:52.167 --> 00:27:53.701
In the case of Iraq, I think it was a horrible crime that Iraq

624
00:27:53.701 --> 00:27:55.167
invaded Kuwait.

625
00:27:55.167 --> 00:27:56.634
There was no effort ever made to negotiate to see if Iraq would

626
00:27:56.634 --> 00:27:58.067
withdraw its forces peacefully.

627
00:27:58.067 --> 00:27:59.534
Many people thought that -- .

628
00:27:59.534 --> 00:28:00.968
I assume that Jim Baker who is

629
00:28:00.968 --> 00:28:02.434
watching this must

630
00:28:02.434 --> 00:28:04.100
say, are you -- what is the former President saying because

631
00:28:04.100 --> 00:28:06.601
clearly we wanted him to withdraw from -- .

632
00:28:06.601 --> 00:28:09.434
Jim Baker knows -- he's heard this

633
00:28:09.434 --> 00:28:11.834
before (from me).

634
00:28:11.834 --> 00:28:15.367
The Defense Minister of Saudi Arabia and many other Arab

635
00:28:15.367 --> 00:28:19.334
leaders in that part of the world knew that negotiation

636
00:28:19.334 --> 00:28:23.400
might be successful.

637
00:28:23.400 --> 00:28:26.767
In fact, the Defense Minister of Saudi Arabia, Prince Sultan,

638
00:28:26.767 --> 00:28:30.067
publicly called for no military attacks and for an effort by the

639
00:28:30.067 --> 00:28:33.634
Arab leaders to negotiate with Saddam Hussein for a peaceful

640
00:28:33.634 --> 00:28:36.801
withdrawal from Kuwait.

641
00:28:36.801 --> 00:28:39.667
To the three major issues involved -- I may not going go

642
00:28:39.667 --> 00:28:42.534
into detail here that he named publicly should be addressed.

643
00:28:42.534 --> 00:28:45.634
Why didn't it happen?

644
00:28:45.634 --> 00:28:48.601
Because I think there had been a decision made

645
00:28:48.601 --> 00:28:51.100
in Washington that the best result was to attack.

646
00:28:51.100 --> 00:28:53.267
And, once they had attacked, should they have

647
00:28:53.267 --> 00:28:55.834
gone all the way to Baghdad which has been the remaining

648
00:28:55.834 --> 00:28:58.000
historical question.

649
00:28:58.000 --> 00:29:00.133
I don't know.

650
00:29:00.133 --> 00:29:02.567
And, eliminated Saddam Hussein

651
00:29:02.567 --> 00:29:05.167
whatever way they could?

652
00:29:05.167 --> 00:29:07.400
I don't know that much about it.

653
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:10.000
I would hate to condemn President Bush and General

654
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.434
Schwarzkopf and all for making the decision about which I was

655
00:29:12.434 --> 00:29:14.868
thoroughly unfamiliar.

656
00:29:14.868 --> 00:29:16.934
But, the fact is -- what have we achieved in Iraq?

657
00:29:16.934 --> 00:29:19.067
Saddam Hussein is still in power.

658
00:29:19.067 --> 00:29:21.167
They may still have nuclear

659
00:29:21.167 --> 00:29:23.234
capability of some sort.

660
00:29:23.234 --> 00:29:25.067
They might have still (inaudible) capabilities.

661
00:29:25.067 --> 00:29:26.901
They are still attacking the Kurds.

662
00:29:26.901 --> 00:29:28.801
Kuwait is no closer to a

663
00:29:28.801 --> 00:29:30.467
democracy than it was.

664
00:29:30.467 --> 00:29:32.634
The Kurds and the Shiites in the south are being attacked.

665
00:29:32.634 --> 00:29:34.534
And, the people of Iraq are suffering horribly because we've

666
00:29:34.534 --> 00:29:36.267
got a blockade around them.

667
00:29:36.267 --> 00:29:38.767
They can't get military -- they can't get humanitarian supplies.

668
00:29:38.767 --> 00:29:41.634
They can't sell their oil.

669
00:29:41.634 --> 00:29:44.801
They can't pay their debts.

670
00:29:44.801 --> 00:29:47.767
So, we've got a deadlock now that might continue for eight or

671
00:29:47.767 --> 00:29:50.534
ten more years with the Iraqi people already suffering under a

672
00:29:50.534 --> 00:29:53.400
horribly oppressive leader when we're not taking action to work

673
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:56.634
it out so that they can be relieved of their suffering.

674
00:29:56.634 --> 00:29:59.734
Bosnia.

675
00:29:59.734 --> 00:30:02.300
The President now -- there's a possibility of an agreement.

676
00:30:02.300 --> 00:30:04.834
The President has said that he will commit American troops as

677
00:30:04.834 --> 00:30:07.000
part of a UN or NATO peacekeeping force.

678
00:30:07.000 --> 00:30:10.033
Is that a good idea?

679
00:30:10.033 --> 00:30:13.400
To send 25,000 American troops over there as part of a

680
00:30:13.400 --> 00:30:16.501
peacekeeping force?

681
00:30:16.501 --> 00:30:19.067
I never have disapproved of American troops

682
00:30:19.067 --> 00:30:21.767
being used to ensure the carrying out of a peace

683
00:30:21.767 --> 00:30:24.434
agreement that has been reached by the people

684
00:30:24.434 --> 00:30:27.067
in what was Yugoslavia.

685
00:30:27.067 --> 00:30:29.667
I think -- I have always thought and still think that the

686
00:30:29.667 --> 00:30:32.734
Europeans should be in the forefront, and we should provide

687
00:30:32.734 --> 00:30:35.334
support but that American troops should not be in the forefront.

688
00:30:35.334 --> 00:30:38.033
This is basically a European problem.

689
00:30:38.033 --> 00:30:40.300
So, to preserve or to enforce a peace that has been negotiated

690
00:30:40.300 --> 00:30:42.334
at (inaudible).

691
00:30:42.334 --> 00:30:44.801
But, what kind of rules of engagement would you

692
00:30:44.801 --> 00:30:47.334
like to see?

693
00:30:47.334 --> 00:30:50.300
I don't know.

694
00:30:50.300 --> 00:30:53.000
I'm not an expert on Central Europe.

695
00:30:53.000 --> 00:30:56.033
I've never been briefed on the Bosnian situation.

696
00:30:56.033 --> 00:30:58.868
But, I would say that whatever it took to enforce an agreement

697
00:30:58.868 --> 00:31:01.901
that both sides had reached (inaudible).

698
00:31:01.901 --> 00:31:05.167
You seem to have -- you went back after the

699
00:31:05.167 --> 00:31:08.767
defeat at the hands of President Reagan.

700
00:31:08.767 --> 00:31:12.133
You went back to Plains and then established the Carter Center

701
00:31:12.133 --> 00:31:15.801
and written a number of books and have done all the things

702
00:31:15.801 --> 00:31:19.400
that we have talked about, and it is well known now how you are

703
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:22.801
the most popular former President, whatever that means.

704
00:31:22.801 --> 00:31:26.367
And, you have -- you now do the things that I've talked about in

705
00:31:26.367 --> 00:31:29.701
terms of monitoring elections and in terms of having the

706
00:31:29.701 --> 00:31:33.200
Carter Center be a forward-reaching out in terms of

707
00:31:33.200 --> 00:31:36.667
nutrition and in terms of health and a lot of other things.

708
00:31:36.667 --> 00:31:39.534
And, Habitat and a lot of other things.

709
00:31:39.534 --> 00:31:42.400
Is there anything -- is there a role in addition to what you're

710
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:45.200
doing now that you think you could make a

711
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:48.234
different kind of contribution.

712
00:31:48.234 --> 00:31:51.434
I raise this question because Al Hunt of the Wall Street Journal

713
00:31:51.434 --> 00:31:54.868
in a column said that President Clinton ought to appoint you as

714
00:31:54.868 --> 00:31:57.934
his own envoy to the Middle East.

715
00:31:57.934 --> 00:32:00.868
To be there for -- and representing America to shepherd

716
00:32:00.868 --> 00:32:03.300
whatever needed to be done as these two historical hostile

717
00:32:03.300 --> 00:32:05.367
forces try to come to an agreement.

718
00:32:05.367 --> 00:32:07.434
Is that a kind of role that you would accept if the President

719
00:32:07.434 --> 00:32:09.200
would come to you?

720
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.033
Certainly.

721
00:32:11.033 --> 00:32:13.234
And, I would have accepted it if the President had been Ronald

722
00:32:13.234 --> 00:32:16.567
Reagan or George Bush.

723
00:32:16.567 --> 00:32:20.434
I think that a former President should be at the disposal of the

724
00:32:20.434 --> 00:32:23.901
President of the United States.

725
00:32:23.901 --> 00:32:27.300
On a peace mission, particularly fulfilling some role that can't

726
00:32:27.300 --> 00:32:31.033
be adequately accomplished by professional diplomats, even a

727
00:32:31.033 --> 00:32:34.701
Secretary of State.

728
00:32:34.701 --> 00:32:38.434
Also, I know from experience having been there, that the

729
00:32:38.434 --> 00:32:42.567
President and the Secretary of State are immersed in dozens,

730
00:32:42.567 --> 00:32:46.367
sometimes hundreds, of simultaneous issues.

731
00:32:46.367 --> 00:32:49.901
And, to ask a distinguished person who is well known and --

732
00:32:49.901 --> 00:32:53.334
like a former President -- to take on a unique responsibility

733
00:32:53.334 --> 00:32:56.767
where almost full-time can be devoted to it.

734
00:32:56.767 --> 00:32:59.868
I think would be an appropriate thing.

735
00:32:59.868 --> 00:33:02.467
In any altercation around the world or even the special

736
00:33:02.467 --> 00:33:04.901
challenge that our country faces, if President Clinton,

737
00:33:04.901 --> 00:33:07.434
Secretary of State felt that I could (pull the load), I would

738
00:33:07.434 --> 00:33:10.100
take it.

739
00:33:10.100 --> 00:33:13.200
When you went down on Monday night to -- on

740
00:33:13.200 --> 00:33:16.834
Monday for the signing of the peace accord, you and the

741
00:33:16.834 --> 00:33:20.133
President spent late hours talking.

742
00:33:20.133 --> 00:33:23.334
Long conversation with the President of the United States.

743
00:33:23.334 --> 00:33:25.734
Give us some sense of what that conversation was about?

744
00:33:25.734 --> 00:33:28.133
And, whether it might lead to some role like this?

745
00:33:28.133 --> 00:33:30.534
We didn't discuss a specific role for me.

746
00:33:30.534 --> 00:33:32.934
But, he must have talked about

747
00:33:32.934 --> 00:33:35.334
how you could help

748
00:33:35.334 --> 00:33:38.100
his administration in terms of your efforts and his efforts to

749
00:33:38.100 --> 00:33:40.734
bring about change?

750
00:33:40.734 --> 00:33:43.200
We went down pretty much the gamut of things

751
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:45.634
that were problems for him or challenges for him.

752
00:33:45.634 --> 00:33:48.133
We discussed, for instance, the situation in Russia.

753
00:33:48.133 --> 00:33:50.234
We discussed the situation in Somalia.

754
00:33:50.234 --> 00:33:52.334
We talked about the war in Sudan.

755
00:33:52.334 --> 00:33:54.167
We talked about the problem in Haiti.

756
00:33:54.167 --> 00:33:56.601
We discussed -- .

757
00:33:56.601 --> 00:33:59.267
Where he seems to have changed his

758
00:33:59.267 --> 00:34:01.501
mind from the campaign.

759
00:34:01.501 --> 00:34:03.968
Well, Haiti is a case where in the absence of

760
00:34:03.968 --> 00:34:06.400
involvement there by the Reagan and Bush administration, I went

761
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.701
to Haiti seven times.

762
00:34:09.701 --> 00:34:13.100
We helped put together an election, and since then, both

763
00:34:13.100 --> 00:34:16.601
sides have asked us to play a role.

764
00:34:16.601 --> 00:34:19.701
So, there are areas of the world in which our government can't

765
00:34:19.701 --> 00:34:22.534
play an official role where others can be of help.

766
00:34:22.534 --> 00:34:25.167
Another thing that we discussed that was publicized the day

767
00:34:25.167 --> 00:34:27.634
after the peace treaty signing was

768
00:34:27.634 --> 00:34:30.000
Another thing that we discussed that was

769
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.234
publicized the day after the peace treaty signing was

770
00:34:32.234 --> 00:34:34.434
the North American Free Trade Agreement.

771
00:34:34.434 --> 00:34:36.601
I was going to get to that.

772
00:34:36.601 --> 00:34:38.133
Did he ask you how to handle Ross Perot?

773
00:34:38.133 --> 00:34:39.701
I'm not going to tell any details of our

774
00:34:39.701 --> 00:34:41.234
conversation, but we discussed these things in general terms.

775
00:34:41.234 --> 00:34:42.801
He certainly must have been

776
00:34:42.801 --> 00:34:46.634
pleased with what you said.

777
00:34:46.634 --> 00:34:48.701
And, my question is, what brought you to say that?

778
00:34:48.701 --> 00:34:50.968
This was a lacerating criticism without mentioning his name.

779
00:34:50.968 --> 00:34:53.234
Well, there was no correspondence

780
00:34:53.234 --> 00:34:55.934
among the four presidents.

781
00:34:55.934 --> 00:34:58.200
It was not talked about how this -- .

782
00:34:58.200 --> 00:35:00.667
About who would talk about what.

783
00:35:00.667 --> 00:35:02.801
Each one of us made our own notes and didn't share them with

784
00:35:02.801 --> 00:35:05.033
each other.

785
00:35:05.033 --> 00:35:06.934
Then, why did you come forward with

786
00:35:06.934 --> 00:35:08.901
that kind of language?

787
00:35:08.901 --> 00:35:10.834
Because I just hate to see the American people

788
00:35:10.834 --> 00:35:12.801
misled and underestimated.

789
00:35:12.801 --> 00:35:14.801
I think this country is strong enough.

790
00:35:14.801 --> 00:35:16.567
Our workers are competent enough.

791
00:35:16.567 --> 00:35:18.767
Our managers are intelligent enough.

792
00:35:18.767 --> 00:35:20.667
Our goods are higher enough quality to compete in any

793
00:35:20.667 --> 00:35:22.567
marketplace successfully.

794
00:35:22.567 --> 00:35:24.767
Not withstanding differences in

795
00:35:24.767 --> 00:35:26.701
wages and all of that.

796
00:35:26.701 --> 00:35:28.601
Well, that's true.

797
00:35:28.601 --> 00:35:31.601
But, the two great emerging trade areas in the world -- one

798
00:35:31.601 --> 00:35:34.934
is in Asia.

799
00:35:34.934 --> 00:35:38.367
The other one is in this hemisphere.

800
00:35:38.367 --> 00:35:41.667
In Asia, they're inevitably mostly exporters, and we have a

801
00:35:41.667 --> 00:35:45.067
horrible trade deficit with Asia that has still been persistent.

802
00:35:45.067 --> 00:35:48.100
In Latin America in this hemisphere, this enormous trade

803
00:35:48.100 --> 00:35:50.434
area is importers.

804
00:35:50.434 --> 00:35:52.767
We have tripled our exports to Mexico in the last five years

805
00:35:52.767 --> 00:35:55.100
because they lowered some tariffs.

806
00:35:55.100 --> 00:35:57.434
Do you believe as President

807
00:35:57.434 --> 00:35:59.767
Clinton believed that

808
00:35:59.767 --> 00:36:02.567
will be a net creation of jobs rather than a giant sucking of

809
00:36:02.567 --> 00:36:05.400
jobs going to Mexico as Ross Perot says?

810
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.901
Well, I would say that of maybe 15 professional

811
00:36:07.901 --> 00:36:10.234
groups that have analyzed this, all but one of them -- the one

812
00:36:10.234 --> 00:36:12.434
that Ross Perot selectively quotes shows that there will be

813
00:36:12.434 --> 00:36:14.968
a net increase of jobs.

814
00:36:14.968 --> 00:36:17.734
There will be some jobs lost.

815
00:36:17.734 --> 00:36:20.567
There is no doubt about that.

816
00:36:20.567 --> 00:36:23.634
But, if we have no NAFTA agreement, and if you look back

817
00:36:23.634 --> 00:36:26.234
at the last 15 years, there have been some jobs lost.

818
00:36:26.234 --> 00:36:28.667
For instance, when I was campaigning for President in New

819
00:36:28.667 --> 00:36:30.801
England, I went to a lot of shoe factories and shook hands with

820
00:36:30.801 --> 00:36:33.300
people making shoes.

821
00:36:33.300 --> 00:36:35.434
Probably every one of them.

822
00:36:35.434 --> 00:36:37.601
They've gone.

823
00:36:37.601 --> 00:36:39.934
We're not making shoes any more in New England

824
00:36:39.934 --> 00:36:42.467
like we did before.

825
00:36:42.467 --> 00:36:44.801
Those jobs have moved overseas, and more lucrative jobs, more

826
00:36:44.801 --> 00:36:47.234
high-paying jobs, more high-tech jobs have taken their place.

827
00:36:47.234 --> 00:36:49.934
There are going to be inevitable, progressive changes

828
00:36:49.934 --> 00:36:52.868
in job availabilities.

829
00:36:52.868 --> 00:36:55.801
But, I think in NAFTA with the side agreements that have been

830
00:36:55.801 --> 00:36:58.267
negotiated, we will not only have to clean up the horrible

831
00:36:58.267 --> 00:37:01.133
environmental deterioration along the border, but we'll also

832
00:37:01.133 --> 00:37:03.534
make sure that we do protect those workers who have lost

833
00:37:03.534 --> 00:37:06.000
their jobs.

834
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:08.434
And, we'll increase the wages and the working

835
00:37:08.434 --> 00:37:10.901
conditions in Mexico.

836
00:37:10.901 --> 00:37:13.734
There are some things -- let me say one other thing.

837
00:37:13.734 --> 00:37:16.968
There are some things that don't have to be in the law.

838
00:37:16.968 --> 00:37:20.801
I would like to see American business leaders -- say the

839
00:37:20.801 --> 00:37:24.100
business roundtable or whatever -- voluntarily accept a code of

840
00:37:24.100 --> 00:37:27.200
conduct for their operations in Mexico where they would

841
00:37:27.200 --> 00:37:29.767
guarantee to America that if we put a factory in Mexico that the

842
00:37:29.767 --> 00:37:32.367
wages will e a certain level.

843
00:37:32.367 --> 00:37:34.901
We'll give certain health benefits, and we'll comply with

844
00:37:34.901 --> 00:37:37.300
environmental standards.

845
00:37:37.300 --> 00:37:39.367
You expect the business leaders would do that,

846
00:37:39.367 --> 00:37:41.634
or will they say -- listen, that's not -- that goes against

847
00:37:41.634 --> 00:37:43.868
what my commitment is to my shareholders which is to

848
00:37:43.868 --> 00:37:46.267
maximize profits?

849
00:37:46.267 --> 00:37:48.734
I think it's not an impossibility because they

850
00:37:48.734 --> 00:37:51.901
did the same thing in South America -- in South Africa.

851
00:37:51.901 --> 00:37:55.167
They had a code of conduct which they voluntarily adopted until

852
00:37:55.167 --> 00:37:57.868
the total embargo was placed on trade with South Africa.

853
00:37:57.868 --> 00:38:00.133
And, I think that self-imposed, voluntary code of dealing with

854
00:38:00.133 --> 00:38:02.067
South Africa is a model that could be used by

855
00:38:02.067 --> 00:38:04.033
the business community.

856
00:38:04.033 --> 00:38:05.767
Healthcare.

857
00:38:05.767 --> 00:38:07.300
The other issue.

858
00:38:07.300 --> 00:38:08.968
The President has got three big issues this coming up -- in the

859
00:38:08.968 --> 00:38:10.467
immediate future.

860
00:38:10.467 --> 00:38:12.734
One is NAFTA.

861
00:38:12.734 --> 00:38:15.033
The other is healthcare which is a bigger issue for him.

862
00:38:15.033 --> 00:38:17.000
Will it pass, you think?

863
00:38:17.000 --> 00:38:18.734
Are you surprised at the almost bipartisan enthusiasm for reform

864
00:38:18.734 --> 00:38:20.534
even though they may come to loggerheads over

865
00:38:20.534 --> 00:38:22.501
how to finance it.

866
00:38:22.501 --> 00:38:24.868
It will pass.

867
00:38:24.868 --> 00:38:27.300
And, I think it will probably pass next year.

868
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:30.133
The reason is that almost all the politicians in Washington

869
00:38:30.133 --> 00:38:32.501
realize that the American people now want to see health reform.

870
00:38:32.501 --> 00:38:34.767
At least, health reform, quote.

871
00:38:34.767 --> 00:38:36.734
Exactly how to finance it will be debated in

872
00:38:36.734 --> 00:38:39.133
Congress ad nauseum.

873
00:38:39.133 --> 00:38:41.868
Would this be probably the signal achievement

874
00:38:41.868 --> 00:38:44.400
of the Clinton administration?

875
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:47.000
I think that achievement in itself -- if some

876
00:38:47.000 --> 00:38:49.200
of the present hopes are realized -- will be a landmark

877
00:38:49.200 --> 00:38:51.334
achievement for any President, yes.

878
00:38:51.334 --> 00:38:53.434
In a sense, some are saying, it

879
00:38:53.434 --> 00:38:55.634
closes the New Deal.

880
00:38:55.634 --> 00:38:57.901
It was the remaining thing to be done to close the -- .

881
00:38:57.901 --> 00:39:00.434
I think it will have -- it could have as

882
00:39:00.434 --> 00:39:02.767
profound a beneficial effect as say, Social Security could.

883
00:39:02.767 --> 00:39:04.934
Or, the evolution of Medicaid and Medicare.

884
00:39:04.934 --> 00:39:07.267
And, it was a courageous thing for him to do?

885
00:39:07.267 --> 00:39:09.300
Yes, it was.

886
00:39:09.300 --> 00:39:11.601
I think he grew into it.

887
00:39:11.601 --> 00:39:14.234
He had done a lot of work on this same subject in

888
00:39:14.234 --> 00:39:16.567
Arkansas as Governor.

889
00:39:16.567 --> 00:39:19.267
And, during the campaign, as he talked about health reform,

890
00:39:19.267 --> 00:39:22.033
there was a resonance from the audiences, and I think he became

891
00:39:22.033 --> 00:39:24.601
increasingly committed to it.

892
00:39:24.601 --> 00:39:27.033
And, in his post-election period, during the transition

893
00:39:27.033 --> 00:39:29.467
phase, I would say he talked about the importance of health

894
00:39:29.467 --> 00:39:32.133
reform more than any other single issue.

895
00:39:32.133 --> 00:39:34.834
One last personal question.

896
00:39:34.834 --> 00:39:37.334
Did you have an sense when you went back to Plains and began to

897
00:39:37.334 --> 00:39:39.968
write those books that you could come to the point you are now?

898
00:39:39.968 --> 00:39:42.200
Was that anywhere in the back of your head in terms of the

899
00:39:42.200 --> 00:39:44.367
respect you have with the American people.

900
00:39:44.367 --> 00:39:46.901
A growing appreciation of some of the things that

901
00:39:46.901 --> 00:39:49.267
you wanted to do.

902
00:39:49.267 --> 00:39:51.467
People now are writing in different publications.

903
00:39:51.467 --> 00:39:53.868
No longer is when you talk of Jimmy Carter is the next two

904
00:39:53.868 --> 00:39:56.334
words, failed Presidency.

905
00:39:56.334 --> 00:39:58.467
That's beginning to change.

906
00:39:58.467 --> 00:40:00.534
Part of it is about post-Presidential activities

907
00:40:00.534 --> 00:40:02.601
also, but looking back at some of the things that you wanted to

908
00:40:02.601 --> 00:40:05.000
do but weren't able to do.

909
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:07.033
Did you know that was possible?

910
00:40:07.033 --> 00:40:09.234
Did you -- giant sense that -- ?

911
00:40:09.234 --> 00:40:11.767
First of all, I assess my own Presidency as a

912
00:40:11.767 --> 00:40:13.901
successful Presidency.

913
00:40:13.901 --> 00:40:15.801
There are a lot of people -- .

914
00:40:15.801 --> 00:40:17.701
They never persuaded you that this was a

915
00:40:17.701 --> 00:40:19.701
failed Presidency.

916
00:40:19.701 --> 00:40:21.801
No, it wasn't.

917
00:40:21.801 --> 00:40:23.868
We had some notable achievements there.

918
00:40:23.868 --> 00:40:26.100
But, I wanted a second term and didn't get it, and so there were

919
00:40:26.100 --> 00:40:28.567
some pent-up ambitions in my life that have been partially

920
00:40:28.567 --> 00:40:30.634
realized at least at the Carter Center.

921
00:40:30.634 --> 00:40:32.868
The thing that troubles me -- the reason I wrote this book.

922
00:40:32.868 --> 00:40:35.701
Most Americans don't know that there are 34 major wars going on

923
00:40:35.701 --> 00:40:38.334
right now.

924
00:40:38.334 --> 00:40:40.901
Most Americans don't know what causes wars.

925
00:40:40.901 --> 00:40:43.634
Most Americans don't know how peace and democracy and freedom

926
00:40:43.634 --> 00:40:46.167
and human rights and the alleviation of suffering are

927
00:40:46.167 --> 00:40:48.701
inextricably entwined.

928
00:40:48.701 --> 00:40:51.234
Most people don't know the basic techniques of resolving or

929
00:40:51.234 --> 00:40:53.767
preventing a conflict that apply not only in

930
00:40:53.767 --> 00:40:56.300
Sudan or Somalia but

931
00:40:56.300 --> 00:40:58.801
also apply in the local home or in a high school or in a college

932
00:40:58.801 --> 00:41:01.200
environment or in a ghetto neighborhood.

933
00:41:01.200 --> 00:41:03.501
The same principles apply.

934
00:41:03.501 --> 00:41:06.200
Conflict resolution.

935
00:41:06.200 --> 00:41:08.934
Conflict resolution.

936
00:41:08.934 --> 00:41:12.200
There are some very simple but intriguing facts there.

937
00:41:12.200 --> 00:41:14.934
The last reason I wrote this book is that people

938
00:41:14.934 --> 00:41:17.734
underestimate what young people can do.

939
00:41:17.734 --> 00:41:20.868
The teenagers in high school and college can transform the

940
00:41:20.868 --> 00:41:23.701
policies of a nation.

941
00:41:23.701 --> 00:41:26.534
My sons grew up during the late 1960s.

942
00:41:26.534 --> 00:41:29.100
They were in that age group, and we saw that it was the young

943
00:41:29.100 --> 00:41:31.534
people who got us out of Viet Nam.

944
00:41:31.534 --> 00:41:33.667
It wasn't voluntarily done on the part of President Johnson

945
00:41:33.667 --> 00:41:36.000
and the Secretary of State.

946
00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.033
It was the young people that brought about Earth Day and an

947
00:41:38.033 --> 00:41:40.033
awareness of environment.

948
00:41:40.033 --> 00:41:42.367
It was the young people who brought about an end to racial

949
00:41:42.367 --> 00:41:44.801
segregation in the South.

950
00:41:44.801 --> 00:41:47.868
It wasn't the leaders who said we've got to do this.

951
00:41:47.868 --> 00:41:50.901
It was young people with idealism and enthusiasm and an

952
00:41:50.901 --> 00:41:53.667
element of freedom who said let's do this together.

953
00:41:53.667 --> 00:41:56.267
I think that when you start talking about peace, the young,

954
00:41:56.267 --> 00:41:58.767
the idealistic, maybe older people who are young at heart

955
00:41:58.767 --> 00:42:01.267
ought to know the basic principles.

956
00:42:01.267 --> 00:42:03.634
I'm glad that you made that addition to it.

957
00:42:03.634 --> 00:42:06.000
Talking Peace: A Vision for the Next Generation is a primer

958
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:08.267
about conflict resolution.

959
00:42:08.267 --> 00:42:11.167
Also, the number of conflicts around the country.

960
00:42:11.167 --> 00:42:13.868
A review of what happened with insight into what happened at

961
00:42:13.868 --> 00:42:17.067
Camp David.

962
00:42:17.067 --> 00:42:19.701
One of the signal achievements of the Carter administration

963
00:42:19.701 --> 00:42:21.901
along with some other things that the President has talked

964
00:42:21.901 --> 00:42:23.734
about in other books.

965
00:42:23.734 --> 00:42:25.334
It's always a pleasure to have you here, and I

966
00:42:25.334 --> 00:42:26.667
thank you very much.

967
00:42:26.667 --> 00:42:27.868
I've enjoyed it, Charlie.

968
00:42:27.868 --> 00:42:29.067
Good luck.

969
00:42:29.067 --> 00:42:30.400
Thank you.

970
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:31.801
Former President Jimmy Carter.

971
00:42:31.801 --> 00:42:33.801
Coming up, we'll talk about cranes.

972
00:42:33.801 --> 00:42:36.901
George Archibald is here.

973
00:42:36.901 --> 00:42:39.434
All about these wonderful creatures.

974
00:42:39.434 --> 00:42:46.634
Stay with us.

975
00:42:46.634 --> 00:42:49.133
A winner of the MacArthur Genius Award, Time

976
00:42:49.133 --> 00:42:51.868
Magazine dubbed him the Don Juan of the Audobon.

977
00:42:51.868 --> 00:42:54.334
As Director of the International Crane Foundation, George

978
00:42:54.334 --> 00:42:57.067
Archibald has devoted his life to saving cranes through a

979
00:42:57.067 --> 00:42:59.801
process of education, research, and conservation of the birds in

980
00:42:59.801 --> 00:43:02.300
their natural habitats.

981
00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:04.834
He has traveled to Australia, Iran, China, India, Japan, Korea

982
00:43:04.834 --> 00:43:07.334
and throughout the United States studying the ecology of eight

983
00:43:07.334 --> 00:43:09.601
species of cranes.

984
00:43:09.601 --> 00:43:11.567
He has established a species bank of captive cranes to be

985
00:43:11.567 --> 00:43:13.234
used for breeding, and we're pleased to have

986
00:43:13.234 --> 00:43:16.067
him here this evening. Welcome.

987
00:43:16.067 --> 00:43:17.467
Thank you, Charlie.

988
00:43:17.467 --> 00:43:19.334
Great to have you here.

989
00:43:19.334 --> 00:43:20.968
Tell me about cranes.

990
00:43:20.968 --> 00:43:22.601
That's what I want to know.

991
00:43:22.601 --> 00:43:24.701
What makes them -- what's unique?

992
00:43:24.701 --> 00:43:27.133
What's special?

993
00:43:27.133 --> 00:43:29.434
Why do love them?

994
00:43:29.434 --> 00:43:30.234
Infuse me with your passion for these birds.

995
00:43:30.234 --> 00:43:31.334
Well, first of all,

996
00:43:31.334 --> 00:43:32.801
they're enormous creatures.

997
00:43:32.801 --> 00:43:34.167
Some of them stand almost six feet tall.

998
00:43:34.167 --> 00:43:35.701
And, they live as long as a man.

999
00:43:35.701 --> 00:43:37.501
In captivity at least, we've had them live into their 80s.

1000
00:43:37.501 --> 00:43:39.334
They're monogamous.

1001
00:43:39.334 --> 00:43:41.501
Same partner throughout their life.

1002
00:43:41.501 --> 00:43:43.834
Well, they'll change if one dies.

1003
00:43:43.834 --> 00:43:46.300
Sometimes, we have divorces, but not so often.

1004
00:43:46.300 --> 00:43:49.067
So, as a general rule, they're monogamous.

1005
00:43:49.067 --> 00:43:51.567
As a general rule, yes.

1006
00:43:51.567 --> 00:43:53.701
They have a very elaborate communication system.

1007
00:43:53.701 --> 00:43:56.000
They have 16 different types of calls, and it's not what you say

1008
00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:58.000
but how you say it.

1009
00:43:58.000 --> 00:44:00.000
Different tones.

1010
00:44:00.000 --> 00:44:02.000
And, male and female are different which you

1011
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:03.767
obviously discovered.

1012
00:44:03.767 --> 00:44:05.767
Right, right.

1013
00:44:05.767 --> 00:44:07.567
Male and female have different voices for certain calls.

1014
00:44:07.567 --> 00:44:09.534
And, they have long migrations.

1015
00:44:09.534 --> 00:44:11.801
They travel thousands of miles between the areas in which they

1016
00:44:11.801 --> 00:44:13.734
breed and where they winter.

1017
00:44:13.734 --> 00:44:16.634
And, at this time, they become social, and they have all this

1018
00:44:16.634 --> 00:44:19.634
communication going on within their flock

1019
00:44:19.634 --> 00:44:22.100
to get along together.

1020
00:44:22.100 --> 00:44:24.434
They depend on wide expanses of wetland in order to survive.

1021
00:44:24.434 --> 00:44:26.934
A habitat that's very endangered that supports a

1022
00:44:26.934 --> 00:44:31.567
lot of other life. Biodiversity.

1023
00:44:31.567 --> 00:44:33.701
And, they're a wonderful indicator species of the health

1024
00:44:33.701 --> 00:44:35.801
of the wetlands.

1025
00:44:35.801 --> 00:44:37.634
If the cranes are around, it means everything

1026
00:44:37.634 --> 00:44:39.801
else is okay, too.

1027
00:44:39.801 --> 00:44:42.067
The ecosystem is in balance.

1028
00:44:42.067 --> 00:44:44.300
Right.

1029
00:44:44.300 --> 00:44:46.767
I chose to work on these birds because of that.

1030
00:44:46.767 --> 00:44:48.868
Because they are representative of an entire ecosystem.

1031
00:44:48.868 --> 00:44:50.834
Where are they endangered?

1032
00:44:50.834 --> 00:44:52.834
Well, there are 15 species in the world, and

1033
00:44:52.834 --> 00:44:54.634
eight are endangered.

1034
00:44:54.634 --> 00:44:56.767
Five of those are in Asia.

1035
00:44:56.767 --> 00:44:58.634
One is in North America, the whooping crane.

1036
00:44:58.634 --> 00:45:00.734
One is in Africa.

1037
00:45:00.734 --> 00:45:02.601
So, most of my work has been in Asia, particularly in Russia and

1038
00:45:02.601 --> 00:45:04.267
in China.

1039
00:45:04.267 --> 00:45:06.067
What has been your signal contribution to the

1040
00:45:06.067 --> 00:45:08.334
life of cranes?

1041
00:45:08.334 --> 00:45:10.667
The longevity of cranes?

1042
00:45:10.667 --> 00:45:12.901
I think perhaps together with my

1043
00:45:12.901 --> 00:45:15.501
colleague from Cornell University, Ron Sauey.

1044
00:45:15.501 --> 00:45:17.734
We were graduate students there together, and we had this dream

1045
00:45:17.734 --> 00:45:20.200
of starting a foundation.

1046
00:45:20.200 --> 00:45:22.734
And, since 1973, we have established this International

1047
00:45:22.734 --> 00:45:24.901
Crane Foundation.

1048
00:45:24.901 --> 00:45:27.167
So, it was two college kids with a dream, and now it's quite a

1049
00:45:27.167 --> 00:45:29.334
stable and fairly large organization that is doing a lot

1050
00:45:29.334 --> 00:45:31.501
of good work.

1051
00:45:31.501 --> 00:45:33.367
They ar interesting to me in addition to

1052
00:45:33.367 --> 00:45:35.000
all these things we're talking about.

1053
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:36.501
They're also symbols in certain countries.

1054
00:45:36.501 --> 00:45:37.868
Right.

1055
00:45:37.868 --> 00:45:39.133
Very, very powerful symbols.

1056
00:45:39.133 --> 00:45:40.334
Of what?

1057
00:45:40.334 --> 00:45:41.734
Peace.

1058
00:45:41.734 --> 00:45:43.167
Long life.

1059
00:45:43.167 --> 00:45:44.734
Good luck.

1060
00:45:44.734 --> 00:45:46.567
Throughout the Oriental countries.

1061
00:45:46.567 --> 00:45:48.367
And, in many other countries.

1062
00:45:48.367 --> 00:45:50.200
In Viet Nam, specifically.

1063
00:45:50.200 --> 00:45:52.000
In Viet Nam, the people

1064
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.834
believe that when you

1065
00:45:53.834 --> 00:45:55.968
die, the cranes carry your spirit to heaven.

1066
00:45:55.968 --> 00:45:58.834
And, on the war memorials in South Viet Nam, cranes are all

1067
00:45:58.834 --> 00:46:01.767
over these memorials.

1068
00:46:01.767 --> 00:46:04.667
Taking the souls of the soldiers to the next world.

1069
00:46:04.667 --> 00:46:07.734
Because they are very powerful symbols, local people can

1070
00:46:07.734 --> 00:46:11.033
understand the importance of saving cranes.

1071
00:46:11.033 --> 00:46:14.167
And then, the next step is saving the habitat.

1072
00:46:14.167 --> 00:46:17.300
So, we have been able to work with our colleagues overseas to

1073
00:46:17.300 --> 00:46:19.901
have enormous tracts of wetlands and grasslands protected that

1074
00:46:19.901 --> 00:46:22.501
otherwise not have been saved had the cranes not been there.

1075
00:46:22.501 --> 00:46:25.467
What was that experiment you did in terms of

1076
00:46:25.467 --> 00:46:28.067
listening to them that -- ?

1077
00:46:28.067 --> 00:46:30.834
Well, I studied their vocalizations when

1078
00:46:30.834 --> 00:46:33.601
I was at Cornell University, and I discovered that you can sex

1079
00:46:33.601 --> 00:46:36.367
cranes by their voice.

1080
00:46:36.367 --> 00:46:39.067
They look identical although the males are usually larger.

1081
00:46:39.067 --> 00:46:41.601
But, when they do this particular duet, called the

1082
00:46:41.601 --> 00:46:44.000
unison call, we can tell who the boys are and who the girls are.

1083
00:46:44.000 --> 00:46:46.033
I wish we had sounds of that.

1084
00:46:46.033 --> 00:46:47.834
Let me go to these pictures and take a look.

1085
00:46:47.834 --> 00:46:49.400
We want to see some cranes, don't we?

1086
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:50.868
Cranes in the wild.

1087
00:46:50.868 --> 00:46:52.434
Let's see the first slide.

1088
00:46:52.434 --> 00:46:54.133
Now, where is this?

1089
00:46:54.133 --> 00:46:56.000
Sure.

1090
00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.267
This is in Sweden at Lake Hornborga.

1091
00:46:58.267 --> 00:47:00.267
Photographer (Story) Carlson won a national competition for this

1092
00:47:00.267 --> 00:47:02.100
photograph and a car went along with it.

1093
00:47:02.100 --> 00:47:03.968
Shows the Eurasian cranes when they came back from Spain where

1094
00:47:03.968 --> 00:47:06.200
they spent the winter.

1095
00:47:06.200 --> 00:47:08.567
They're trumpeting.

1096
00:47:08.567 --> 00:47:11.033
They're posturing to each other.

1097
00:47:11.033 --> 00:47:13.601
They're all high on hormones ready to begin the next breeding

1098
00:47:13.601 --> 00:47:15.834
season and splitting up from the flock to their breeding

1099
00:47:15.834 --> 00:47:17.934
territories where they nest.

1100
00:47:17.934 --> 00:47:19.767
They're solitary as pairs during the breeding period but quite

1101
00:47:19.767 --> 00:47:21.801
social on migration.

1102
00:47:21.801 --> 00:47:23.601
Second slide.

1103
00:47:23.601 --> 00:47:25.367
Third slide.

1104
00:47:25.367 --> 00:47:27.567
This is at the Crane Foundation, and these

1105
00:47:27.567 --> 00:47:30.133
are whooping cranes.

1106
00:47:30.133 --> 00:47:32.934
The rarest of all.

1107
00:47:32.934 --> 00:47:35.734
There were only 16 left alive in the migratory flock in North

1108
00:47:35.734 --> 00:47:38.701
America 50 years ago, but now there are about 140.

1109
00:47:38.701 --> 00:47:41.501
In addition, there are about 80 birds in captivity, and these

1110
00:47:41.501 --> 00:47:44.367
are at the Crane Foundation in Wisconsin.

1111
00:47:44.367 --> 00:47:47.367
More are maintained at the Patuxent Wildlife Research

1112
00:47:47.367 --> 00:47:49.901
Center in Maryland, and we breed them in captivity.

1113
00:47:49.901 --> 00:47:52.033
And now, we're releasing them into the wild in Florida to

1114
00:47:52.033 --> 00:47:53.901
start a non-migratory flock of whooping cranes on

1115
00:47:53.901 --> 00:47:56.067
the Kissimmee prairie.

1116
00:47:56.067 --> 00:47:58.133
These two are dancing.

1117
00:47:58.133 --> 00:48:00.434
It's spring.

1118
00:48:00.434 --> 00:48:03.067
Cranes have very elaborate courtship dances that they do

1119
00:48:03.067 --> 00:48:05.367
which are spectacular -- .

1120
00:48:05.367 --> 00:48:07.734
Now, when do they mate up?

1121
00:48:07.734 --> 00:48:09.801
They start to pair when they're about 18

1122
00:48:09.801 --> 00:48:12.100
months of age.

1123
00:48:12.100 --> 00:48:14.601
Solid pair bonds are usually formed in their

1124
00:48:14.601 --> 00:48:17.767
third or fourth year.

1125
00:48:17.767 --> 00:48:20.367
First breeding, maybe fifth or sixth year.

1126
00:48:20.367 --> 00:48:22.567
Wait a minute.

1127
00:48:22.567 --> 00:48:24.467
They start dating when they're 18 months.

1128
00:48:24.467 --> 00:48:26.400
Right.

1129
00:48:26.400 --> 00:48:28.501
Okay.

1130
00:48:28.501 --> 00:48:30.601
Hang out together.

1131
00:48:30.601 --> 00:48:32.434
And, hang out together.

1132
00:48:32.434 --> 00:48:34.033
But, it takes -- at 18 months -- then, it's 36

1133
00:48:34.033 --> 00:48:35.767
months before they become monogamous with each other.

1134
00:48:35.767 --> 00:48:37.400
Begin to mate?

1135
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:39.100
Right.

1136
00:48:39.100 --> 00:48:40.901
They have a lot of transient relationships.

1137
00:48:40.901 --> 00:48:42.734
They'll stay together -- .

1138
00:48:42.734 --> 00:48:44.634
They'll play the field.

1139
00:48:44.634 --> 00:48:46.534
They play the field, really.

1140
00:48:46.534 --> 00:48:48.067
The pair bonds are very unstable.

1141
00:48:48.067 --> 00:48:49.634
Eventually, they'll find the right crane.

1142
00:48:49.634 --> 00:48:51.200
Hook up, and then be completely devoted.

1143
00:48:51.200 --> 00:48:52.734
There are many stories of cranes where one mate

1144
00:48:52.734 --> 00:48:54.300
will die, and the

1145
00:48:54.300 --> 00:48:56.200
other one will stay with the dead bird and

1146
00:48:56.200 --> 00:48:57.868
actually die itself.

1147
00:48:57.868 --> 00:48:59.968
That has been reported in Japan and Korea.

1148
00:48:59.968 --> 00:49:01.801
How do they choose their mates?

1149
00:49:01.801 --> 00:49:03.701
Do we know?

1150
00:49:03.701 --> 00:49:05.634
Well, it's fairly easy to induce cranes to

1151
00:49:05.634 --> 00:49:07.567
pair in captivity.

1152
00:49:07.567 --> 00:49:09.467
I think the key thing is finding birds that are

1153
00:49:09.467 --> 00:49:11.400
at the same point

1154
00:49:11.400 --> 00:49:13.801
in their hormonal cycle that are well adjusted to a setting -- .

1155
00:49:13.801 --> 00:49:16.133
These birds could teach us a lot.

1156
00:49:16.133 --> 00:49:18.100
They're ready to go for it.

1157
00:49:18.100 --> 00:49:20.300
One of the things we have to do in working with them in

1158
00:49:20.300 --> 00:49:22.501
captivity is getting the right circumstances and the right

1159
00:49:22.501 --> 00:49:24.434
birds together -- .

1160
00:49:24.434 --> 00:49:26.534
In order to breed -- because you want to -- you

1161
00:49:26.534 --> 00:49:28.400
want to breed the flock to whatever you can, correct?

1162
00:49:28.400 --> 00:49:30.033
Right.

1163
00:49:30.033 --> 00:49:31.767
I think we did -- did we do the last

1164
00:49:31.767 --> 00:49:34.968
slide there before? Okay.

1165
00:49:34.968 --> 00:49:36.934
I think there are a couple more slides.

1166
00:49:36.934 --> 00:49:39.167
There you go.

1167
00:49:39.167 --> 00:49:41.467
There you go.

1168
00:49:41.467 --> 00:49:44.200
This is a young whooping crane, and these little guys grown from

1169
00:49:44.200 --> 00:49:46.968
about four inches to about five feet in three months.

1170
00:49:46.968 --> 00:49:50.434
It's a tremendous growth rate, and that's the reason they need

1171
00:49:50.434 --> 00:49:53.267
so much land because they feed on aquatic animal food.

1172
00:49:53.267 --> 00:49:55.634
And, to produce their food, they have to have a lot of defended

1173
00:49:55.634 --> 00:49:57.968
real estate.

1174
00:49:57.968 --> 00:49:59.968
Okay.

1175
00:49:59.968 --> 00:50:01.701
There you go.

1176
00:50:01.701 --> 00:50:03.267
Now, that's not a crane feeding a crane.

1177
00:50:03.267 --> 00:50:04.934
That's a puppet.

1178
00:50:04.934 --> 00:50:06.434
A hand puppet.

1179
00:50:06.434 --> 00:50:08.067
And, we are raising -- .

1180
00:50:08.067 --> 00:50:09.567
That's something artificial?

1181
00:50:09.567 --> 00:50:11.167
Right.

1182
00:50:11.167 --> 00:50:12.634
That's an artificial -- someone's

1183
00:50:12.634 --> 00:50:14.267
hand is in that things.

1184
00:50:14.267 --> 00:50:15.734
And, this little chick is being raised by people that are

1185
00:50:15.734 --> 00:50:17.434
dressed as cranes.

1186
00:50:17.434 --> 00:50:19.434
These birds raise their own kind and successfully

1187
00:50:19.434 --> 00:50:21.434
go into the wild.

1188
00:50:21.434 --> 00:50:23.167
So, that's a technique that we've -- we are using to

1189
00:50:23.167 --> 00:50:25.000
increase the sample size of the number of birds we can release.

1190
00:50:25.000 --> 00:50:26.601
I want to come back for my

1191
00:50:26.601 --> 00:50:28.300
enthusiasm for these birds.

1192
00:50:28.300 --> 00:50:30.133
You call them birds of superlatives.

1193
00:50:30.133 --> 00:50:31.567
Because they live longer.

1194
00:50:31.567 --> 00:50:33.000
Because they're more monogamous.

1195
00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:34.434
What else is superlative about them?

1196
00:50:34.434 --> 00:50:35.834
Well, they're voices can

1197
00:50:35.834 --> 00:50:37.267
be heard for several

1198
00:50:37.267 --> 00:50:39.067
miles in the still morning air.

1199
00:50:39.067 --> 00:50:40.634
Carry great distances.

1200
00:50:40.634 --> 00:50:43.367
They're among the oldest birds on earth.

1201
00:50:43.367 --> 00:50:45.934
They go back millions of years in the fossil record to the age

1202
00:50:45.934 --> 00:50:49.334
of dinosaurs.

1203
00:50:49.334 --> 00:50:52.434
They're the birds that most people are interested in in

1204
00:50:52.434 --> 00:50:55.033
these other countries.

1205
00:50:55.033 --> 00:50:57.234
And so on.

1206
00:50:57.234 --> 00:50:59.133
As much as anything, the international

1207
00:50:59.133 --> 00:51:01.267
bird, would you say?

1208
00:51:01.267 --> 00:51:03.133
Right.

1209
00:51:03.133 --> 00:51:05.033
I think so.

1210
00:51:05.033 --> 00:51:06.934
More so even than a bald eagle which is the

1211
00:51:06.934 --> 00:51:09.000
American -- .

1212
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:11.033
Much more so.

1213
00:51:11.033 --> 00:51:13.167
This is Peter Matthiessen on the crane.

1214
00:51:13.167 --> 00:51:15.000
Peter Matthiessen being the great writer said, it's the most

1215
00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:17.100
celebrated bird of all world cultures.

1216
00:51:17.100 --> 00:51:19.167
Appearing in all sorts of art forms, designs, and motifs.

1217
00:51:19.167 --> 00:51:21.234
And, on royal robes.

1218
00:51:21.234 --> 00:51:23.267
Being faithful to their mates, the red crowned also bedrock

1219
00:51:23.267 --> 00:51:25.434
wedding cakes and anniversary cards.

1220
00:51:25.434 --> 00:51:27.400
Indeed, they are granted a spiritual dimension with

1221
00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:29.367
heaven-bound sages commonly depicted riding on a crane and

1222
00:51:29.367 --> 00:51:31.567
even assuming the crane's beautiful form for their rival

1223
00:51:31.567 --> 00:51:34.067
in the clouds of immortality.

1224
00:51:34.067 --> 00:51:36.601
In the inimitable style of Peter Matthiessen.

1225
00:51:36.601 --> 00:51:39.133
Tell me about the effort to do something with the international

1226
00:51:39.133 --> 00:51:41.601
society and what -- I assume that's why you got the Mac

1227
00:51:41.601 --> 00:51:44.267
Arthur Genius Award because of the efforts you're making here.

1228
00:51:44.267 --> 00:51:46.868
Well, the beautiful thing about cranes is

1229
00:51:46.868 --> 00:51:49.300
that everybody agrees that we should save them.

1230
00:51:49.300 --> 00:51:51.701
And, back in the 1970s when we initiated our work with the

1231
00:51:51.701 --> 00:51:54.000
Russians and the Chinese, scientists on both sides agree

1232
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:56.367
we have to work on the cranes.

1233
00:51:56.367 --> 00:51:58.968
And, the International Crane Foundation was the vehicle

1234
00:51:58.968 --> 00:52:01.167
through which they could work together.

1235
00:52:01.167 --> 00:52:03.567
Reserves were established in both countries, and we were able

1236
00:52:03.567 --> 00:52:06.367
to introduce the Russians to the Chinese at a

1237
00:52:06.367 --> 00:52:09.234
conference in India.

1238
00:52:09.234 --> 00:52:11.634
And now, we're working in border areas between those countries

1239
00:52:11.634 --> 00:52:13.901
and getting the two sides to work together in saving the

1240
00:52:13.901 --> 00:52:16.133
wetlands now that warmer relations are the case between

1241
00:52:16.133 --> 00:52:18.300
Russia and China.

1242
00:52:18.300 --> 00:52:20.167
You mention wetlands.

1243
00:52:20.167 --> 00:52:21.934
Seeing -- if there are no cranes, the wetlands are

1244
00:52:21.934 --> 00:52:24.067
endangered and imperiled, correct?

1245
00:52:24.067 --> 00:52:26.267
Right.

1246
00:52:26.267 --> 00:52:28.167
And so -- .

1247
00:52:28.167 --> 00:52:30.100
Many wetlands have been saved and protected

1248
00:52:30.100 --> 00:52:32.067
that don't have cranes on them, but it's much easier when the

1249
00:52:32.067 --> 00:52:34.334
cranes are there.

1250
00:52:34.334 --> 00:52:36.634
What's the biggest threat to the cranes?

1251
00:52:36.634 --> 00:52:39.133
It depends on the population.

1252
00:52:39.133 --> 00:52:41.501
In tropical areas, it's drainage of the wetlands.

1253
00:52:41.501 --> 00:52:43.667
For some of the migratory cranes, it's hunting.

1254
00:52:43.667 --> 00:52:45.601
For example, we have a flock of Siberian cranes that breeds in

1255
00:52:45.601 --> 00:52:47.601
Russia, winters in India, and they have to fly across

1256
00:52:47.601 --> 00:52:49.434
Afghanistan and Pakistan.

1257
00:52:49.434 --> 00:52:51.801
And, they're hunted.

1258
00:52:51.801 --> 00:52:54.100
And, they're revered in both India and Russia at either end

1259
00:52:54.100 --> 00:52:56.067
of their migration corridor.

1260
00:52:56.067 --> 00:52:57.801
This began for you as a young man in Nova

1261
00:52:57.801 --> 00:52:59.334
Scotia -- or as a kid in Nova Scotia.

1262
00:52:59.334 --> 00:53:00.767
With ducks, or what?

1263
00:53:00.767 --> 00:53:02.534
Yes.

1264
00:53:02.534 --> 00:53:04.100
Ducks and chickens.

1265
00:53:04.100 --> 00:53:05.801
My parents were very loving.

1266
00:53:05.801 --> 00:53:07.534
They realized this kid has a special interest, and they

1267
00:53:07.534 --> 00:53:09.467
encouraged me.

1268
00:53:09.467 --> 00:53:11.133
From there, I moved on to other things.

1269
00:53:11.133 --> 00:53:12.901
Isn't it wonderful to find a life's work

1270
00:53:12.901 --> 00:53:14.734
involving something that you had an early

1271
00:53:14.734 --> 00:53:16.601
enthusiasm for as a child?

1272
00:53:16.601 --> 00:53:18.834
Yes, I feel very fortunate.

1273
00:53:18.834 --> 00:53:20.901
And, you should be honored.

1274
00:53:20.901 --> 00:53:22.701
George Archibald is Director of the International Crane

1275
00:53:22.701 --> 00:53:24.534
Foundation, and clearly, the best friend the cranes ever had.

1276
00:53:24.534 --> 00:53:26.167
I thank you for joining us.

1277
00:53:26.167 --> 00:53:27.901
Pleasure to have you here.

1278
00:53:27.901 --> 00:53:29.334
Thank you very much.

1279
00:53:29.334 --> 00:53:30.767
Pleasure to be here.

1280
00:53:30.767 --> 00:53:32.234
We thank also former President Jimmy Carter

1281
00:53:32.234 --> 00:53:33.667
here to talk about the world and to talk about

1282
00:53:33.667 --> 00:53:35.100
his own career and

1283
00:53:35.100 --> 00:53:36.868
his relationship with the Clinton administration.

1284
00:53:36.868 --> 00:53:38.601
We look forward to seeing you next time.

1285
00:53:38.601 --> 
Thank you for joining us.