WEBVTT

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Churkin, Hansen and Soyinka next.

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Russia today announced that it agreed to a

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cease-fire after five days of clashes with Georgia.

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The agreement would redeploy Russian and Georgian troops

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from the disputed border areas, where fighting

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erupted last week.

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However, Georgian leaders accused Russia of ignoring the

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truce and continuing their offensive.

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The announcement came a day after President Bush said

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Russia's actions had damaged its international standing.

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>>GEORGE W. BUSH: Russia's actions this

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week have raised serious questions about its intentions

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in Georgia and the region.

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These actions have substantially damaged Russia's

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standing in the world.

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And these actions jeopardized Russia's relations with the

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United States and Europe.

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Joining me now is Vitaly Churkin, Russia's

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ambassador to the United Nations.

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He has been in close talks with top U.S.

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and European diplomats about the crisis.

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I am pleased to have him back on this program, welcome.

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Thank you.

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President Sarkozy and your president,

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Mr. Medvedev, met and announced a six-point plan.

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Yes.

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Tell me what is in the six-point plan.

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Well, it is six principles of what is going to

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happen: cessation of hostilities, access to

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humanitarian aid, Georgian troops returning to their

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barracks, the Russian forces moving back to the line where

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they are on August 6th, Russian peace keepers remain in the

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area, and they can take additional security measures,

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pending international arrangements, and international

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discussions are starting for the future status of Abkhazia and

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South Ossetia, and the assured security for the people of

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South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

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Russia will insist on what ought to be the

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status of those two areas?

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Well, we are not going to insist on anything.

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It is a matter between Akhazians,

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South Ossetians, Georgians.

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And I think it is important to involve the international

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community in this discussion.

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Is the offensive continuing.

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No, no.

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Georgians have said after the announcement and

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after the cease fire announcement from Moscow.

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No, I am not in the field.

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What happened is as follows --I mean it is not absolutely

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accurate to say that there has been a cease-fire.

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What happened this morning is President Medvedev, our command

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in chief, gave orders to our troops to discontinue the peace

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making operation they have been involved in, even though he add

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that should there be provocations from the Georgian

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troops, of course, they should respond in kind.

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I don't know what the situation is currently on the ground.

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I hope -- I haven't heard any information or wire reports that

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something is wrong.

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But the other important thing is those six principles were

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adopted by the president of Russia, president of France.

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And, of course, France is no residing in the European Union.

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And the latest I heard is that President Sarkozy, who, of

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course, went on to Tbilisi, was able to persuade the Georgians

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to accept that.

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So, what hopefully will happen now is this plan being put in

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place on the ground.

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And then we will have assured return to normalcy in the area.

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As we tape this at 6:00 o'clock this evening, do

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we know whether the Georgians have responded to Sarkozy?

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Well, the latest I heard is that they

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responded positively, that they accepted.

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So you have a deal?

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Yes.

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That would mean that we have a deal, yes.

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It still remains to be seen how it is implemented, but basically

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we do have a deal.

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What is Russia's attitude about Saakashvili.

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Very negative, because we think

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that he is not credible.

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First of all, he has launched this crazy military adventure

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against South Ossetia, and we think it is an act of genocide

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and ethnic cleansing.

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By the way, have you heard what the code name of

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the operation was?

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The code name apparently was Clean Field, very telling in

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terms of trying to clean people out of South Ossetia.

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And then over the years we had a bad experience.

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As in cleaning as in ethnic cleaning?

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Ethnic cleansing exactly; Clean Field

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was the code name of the operation.

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From the Georgian side.

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From th Georgian side.

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It was when they moved into Ossetia, over running and

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shooting at our peace keepers, and killing civilians, over

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2000 civilians, creating massive flow of refugees to Russia.

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Out of 120,000 or so population of South Ossetia, over 30,000

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found themselves in the Russian territory, even though it is

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rather difficult to make it from South Ossetia to Russia,

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because of the Wanta (ph) tunnel, which is connecting the

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territory of South Ossetia with North Ossetia,

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which is in Russia.

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So we think he has done something horrible, something

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which is worthy of the International Criminal Court in

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the Hague.

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But this I is a thing --

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He's a war criminal?

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We think that there are some good grounds to

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look into it very carefully.

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But on the other hand, we have had a very negative experience

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to him over the years.

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Is that because he is a darling of

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the west and --

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No, no.

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Because America supports him so much?

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(CROSS TALK)

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No, no.

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Our presidents, I can assure you, have had more meetings

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with him than President Bush and Secretary Rice combined.

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You know, we have been talking with him.

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President Medvedev has had a couple of meetings with him.

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One thing we have been telling him from the outset, when he

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came to power I think in 2004, don't use military force against

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South Ossetia.

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And he was swearing to us and everybody else that he could

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not even contemplate that, because I can not use force

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against my own people.

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It is fair, because you said it on this

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program, you are not happy with Georgia becoming a part of NATO

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or the Ukraine becoming a part of NATO.

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That is an established Russian position, articulated by you on

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this show.

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It is.

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He is very much in favor of NATO.

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It doesn't have anything to

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do with our response

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to his military adventure in South Ossetia.

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But some way you went much

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further than was necessary.

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You could have had a response, but you didn't

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have to go as far.

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You went beyond -- you went beyond there to the other --

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We didn't do two things.

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We didn't --

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Stop?

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We didn't target civilians.

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But what we did do, we also took care of some infrastructure

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which was supporting their military operation against

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South Ossetia.

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You also bombed the pipelines, did you not?

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No, we did not.

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There is no bombing of the pipeline.

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There was no bombing of the pipeline.

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In fact, there may have been some misunderstanding, because

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at the same time reports were coming about some fire on the

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pipeline, but it was in the Turkish territory, actually.

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Some would argue that this is

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about regime change.

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This is a Russian effort to change the regime in Georgia.

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No.

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They want somebody a little bit more open

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to the Russian positions.

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You know, we are not about changing regimes.

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Some other countries have invented this thing, you know,

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removing people, putting people in office, in palaces.

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We don't do that.

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But we make no secret of th fact that we believe that should

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Mr. aakashvili step down, it will help everybody.

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It will help Georgia.

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Is it a demand of Russia?

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No.

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Will this be a demand of Russia.

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We are just saying that we are not going to

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have any dealings with him personally.

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Of course, that does not --

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How can we get this settled if you're not going

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to have any dealings with him personally?

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We are not going to talk to him.

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We regard him as --

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By definition, I mean --

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Not necessarily.

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You know, why are you --

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How will we have any kind of agreement if you're

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not willing talk to the man who has been elected president of

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the country.

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There is a possible indictment of the

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president of Sudan, for instance, and the United States

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is saying, well, we should not hesitate because no impunity is

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our high moral principle.

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For some reason, with this particular guy, the United

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States is willing to shield him, as if he was a not naughty

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child or something.

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In her conversations with our foreign minister, Secretary Rice

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kept saying, please do not use the term ethnic cleansing.

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Please do not use the term genocide.

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Today, I must tell you I was quite taken aback.

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My good colleague Ambassador Khalilzad was talking on the

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way, I think, to some radio station here in the U.S.

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and he Said Saakashvili may have made a tactical mistake, a

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tactical mistake.

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Over 2,000 civilians killed and all of those things I have

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described, and they call it a tactical mistake.

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You should realize that he has really let the United States

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down in a big way, because the United States has been

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associated with him.

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Many people have the impression that he couldn't have done it

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without the approval of the United States.

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Wait, wait.

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The United States has not -- haven't they denied that?

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(CROSS TALK)

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No.

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Haven't they denied that we gave them a green

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light to do this?

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Yes, they have.

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And we are investigating, we are told, what actually happened,

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and what may have brought the idea to his mind.

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And, you know, we do not want to believe that the United

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States gave him the green light.

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We know that he is not really an adequate person, that, you

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know, he can misinterpret stuff, and the things which have been

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said to him by various people

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from the U.S. administration.

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Would Russia like the fact that this has taken

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place to send the following message that this is our part of

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the world, and it doesn't pay to be close to the West?

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Because this is within our own hegemonic arena.

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No, it's not about messages.

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It is about preventing genocide.

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What would have happened if we did nothing

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under those circumstances?

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We would have had thousands of civilians killed in the South

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Ossetia, would have had maybe all of them moved to the

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territory of the Russian Federation.

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And then Abkhazia would be next.

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The same thing would have happened in Abkhazia.

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So it was -- it was a case, an attack, an invasion, a military

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adventure where no alternative but to respond.

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Was there risk for Russia, because many people

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look at this now and they say that the West is less enamored

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of Russia, less -- that it looks, as the president said in

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some very strong language, Russia can't do this.

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It is not in the national -- international interest for

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Russia to do this.

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So you have risked alienating the United States and the West.

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The genocide of Ossetians and

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Abkhazians is not

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a price we are prepared to pay for good relations with the

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United States or the West.

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In fact, we are unhappy about the role the United States and

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some of our western colleagues have played in this.

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We think that the United States has really been supporting

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Saakashvili, who is unreliable and treacherous.

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Well, they truly have been supporting him.

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Supporting him, absolutely, supplying weapons

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which he put to this horrible use.

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So they should really rethink their attitude to this person,

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and generally what they are trying to do, in terms of

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military stuff in Georgia.

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OK.

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Put aside -- you make the clear case that Russia wants to make

261
00:10:47.934 --> 00:10:50.133
about genocide.

262
00:10:50.133 --> 00:10:52.033
But do you accept the fact that it is a risk to the

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international order, as the president and

264
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others have suggested?

265
00:10:56.601 --> 00:10:59.200
No, I don't.

266
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:01.934
I don't see any risks of international disorder at all.

267
00:11:01.934 --> 00:11:04.534
I think there is now a possibility of restoring some

268
00:11:04.534 --> 00:11:07.400
international order to that part of the world, to finally move

269
00:11:07.400 --> 00:11:10.367
towards more stability in the conflicts which Georgia has in

270
00:11:10.367 --> 00:11:13.067
its territory with South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

271
00:11:13.067 --> 00:11:15.367
Richard Holbrook, in a column in one of the

272
00:11:15.367 --> 00:11:17.567
papers, maybe the "Washington Post," argued that this could

273
00:11:17.567 --> 00:11:19.734
have been prevented by diplomacy.

274
00:11:19.734 --> 00:11:21.868
Could it?

275
00:11:21.868 --> 00:11:23.701
It could have been, of course.

276
00:11:23.701 --> 00:11:25.968
And, you know, this is what I have been trying to do in our

277
00:11:25.968 --> 00:11:28.367
contacts with our western colleagues and, in fact, in the

278
00:11:28.367 --> 00:11:31.100
security council.

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We have been repeating -- before -- first, before this attack

280
00:11:33.667 --> 00:11:36.334
started, for weeks in the Security Council, we had been

281
00:11:36.334 --> 00:11:38.434
warning everybody that an attack may be imminent, that he is

282
00:11:38.434 --> 00:11:40.601
preparing some military adventure.

283
00:11:40.601 --> 00:11:42.767
And what was the response in

284
00:11:42.767 --> 00:11:44.901
the Security Council?

285
00:11:44.901 --> 00:11:47.300
The first thing which needed to be done was to

286
00:11:47.300 --> 00:11:50.067
urge him to sign a non-use of force agreement with South

287
00:11:50.067 --> 00:11:52.734
Ossetia and Abkhazia.

288
00:11:52.734 --> 00:11:55.400
And we even tried to work out a presidential statement, an

289
00:11:55.400 --> 00:11:58.133
official presidential statement in the Security Council.

290
00:11:58.133 --> 00:12:00.667
They kept attaching various conditions to it.

291
00:12:00.667 --> 00:12:03.100
We are telling him, well, other things, they will come later,

292
00:12:03.100 --> 00:12:05.467
the return of refugees and other things,

293
00:12:05.467 --> 00:12:07.834
they will come later.

294
00:12:07.834 --> 00:12:10.167
The first thing which must be done is a legally binding

295
00:12:10.167 --> 00:12:12.901
non-use of force agreement between them.

296
00:12:12.901 --> 00:12:15.801
We failed to get this document.

297
00:12:15.801 --> 00:12:18.968
They failed to send a strong message to him.

298
00:12:18.968 --> 00:12:21.934
And what we know has been happening around him, there were

299
00:12:21.934 --> 00:12:24.868
people and still are around him who are saying, Misha -- Misha,

300
00:12:24.868 --> 00:12:27.634
you are such a great statesman, and you have had so much luck in

301
00:12:27.634 --> 00:12:30.234
your political life.

302
00:12:30.234 --> 00:12:32.300
Make this other move to make you a really historic leader of the

303
00:12:32.300 --> 00:12:34.400
Georgian people, get rid --

304
00:12:34.400 --> 00:12:36.467
Who is saying that to him.

305
00:12:36.467 --> 00:12:38.534
There are some people in

306
00:12:38.534 --> 00:12:40.634
Georgia around him who

307
00:12:40.634 --> 00:12:43.501
are pushing him in that direction, the hot heads in the

308
00:12:43.501 --> 00:12:46.133
Georgian political establishment.

309
00:12:46.133 --> 00:12:48.634
Is it part of the conventional wisdom that he

310
00:12:48.634 --> 00:12:51.467
underestimated the Russian response, that he

311
00:12:51.467 --> 00:12:54.133
didn't assume --

312
00:12:54.133 --> 00:12:56.634
He said that.

313
00:12:56.634 --> 00:12:58.968
He said that in an CNN interview.

314
00:12:58.968 --> 00:13:01.601
Why would he believe that?

315
00:13:01.601 --> 00:13:04.067
What was he thinking? I have no idea.

316
00:13:04.067 --> 00:13:06.467
It was a crazy thing for him to have done.

317
00:13:06.467 --> 00:13:09.200
My impression is Russia has been looking for an

318
00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:11.734
opportunity to --

319
00:13:11.734 --> 00:13:14.334
No, no.

320
00:13:14.334 --> 00:13:17.234
For me, it is impossible to comprehend what

321
00:13:17.234 --> 00:13:20.100
he was really expecting.

322
00:13:20.100 --> 00:13:23.267
Was he expecting that we would have our peace keepers killed

323
00:13:23.267 --> 00:13:26.133
over there and we will have civilians killed and, in fact,

324
00:13:26.133 --> 00:13:29.167
many of them have Russian passports, Russian citizens, and

325
00:13:29.167 --> 00:13:32.167
we'll simply sit on our hands and worry about our relationship

326
00:13:32.167 --> 00:13:34.901
with the United States?

327
00:13:34.901 --> 00:13:37.467
Will Washington approve of our response or not?

328
00:13:37.467 --> 00:13:39.968
We were telling him for years that we will not allow a

329
00:13:39.968 --> 00:13:42.367
military solution to this conflict.

330
00:13:42.367 --> 00:13:44.634
We will not allow.

331
00:13:44.634 --> 00:13:46.868
Still, he did that.

332
00:13:46.868 --> 00:13:48.834
Why do you think he did it?

333
00:13:48.834 --> 00:13:50.834
I don't know if he is sane or not.

334
00:13:50.834 --> 00:13:52.868
Sane?

335
00:13:52.868 --> 00:13:54.901
Sane or not.

336
00:13:54.901 --> 00:13:57.033
I think that is what Medvedev said.

337
00:13:57.033 --> 00:13:59.234
I think it is an act of political insanity.

338
00:13:59.234 --> 00:14:01.434
I am not a medical doctor, so I cannot judge him.

339
00:14:01.434 --> 00:14:03.701
Although when I watch television, I have my doubts.

340
00:14:03.701 --> 00:14:06.000
But clearly, it is an act of political insanity.

341
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:08.300
It is a criminal blunder, if you will.

342
00:14:08.300 --> 00:14:10.601
Speaking of that, Mr. Holbrook, in

343
00:14:10.601 --> 00:14:12.634
his column, in

344
00:14:12.634 --> 00:14:14.701
his piece, said Russia has invaded a neighbor.

345
00:14:14.701 --> 00:14:16.767
It's an illegal act of aggression that violates the UN charter.

346
00:14:16.767 --> 00:14:18.801
I sent a letter to the president of the

347
00:14:18.801 --> 00:14:20.868
Security Council, as I am supposed to do on the UN

348
00:14:20.868 --> 00:14:22.901
charter, and explained

349
00:14:22.901 --> 00:14:25.901
that legally our actions have been taken under Article 51 of

350
00:14:25.901 --> 00:14:28.434
the UN charter because our peace keepers, who were there

351
00:14:28.434 --> 00:14:31.200
legally, on the basis of international agreements, had

352
00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.767
been attacked and killed, and because Russian citizens were

353
00:14:33.767 --> 00:14:36.234
attacked and killed.

354
00:14:36.234 --> 00:14:38.534
Politically, it was a peace making operation.

355
00:14:38.534 --> 00:14:40.534
When we are acting in a peace-keeping mode and they

356
00:14:40.534 --> 00:14:42.534
violated the peace-keeping agreement.

357
00:14:42.534 --> 00:14:44.300
So politically, it was a peace making, peace

358
00:14:44.300 --> 00:14:46.100
enforcement operation.

359
00:14:46.100 --> 00:14:48.033
This clearly has gotten the world community

360
00:14:48.033 --> 00:14:49.734
upset, as you well recognize.

361
00:14:49.734 --> 00:14:51.434
We are upset as well.

362
00:14:51.434 --> 00:14:53.234
You think we are happy about it all?

363
00:14:53.234 --> 00:14:54.834
We are also upset.

364
00:14:54.834 --> 00:14:56.767
We have other things to do.

365
00:14:56.767 --> 00:14:58.801
Do you think we want to do fighting anywhere?

366
00:14:58.801 --> 00:15:00.834
Is it over?

367
00:15:00.834 --> 00:15:02.901
Has the worst been contained or is it likely --

368
00:15:02.901 --> 00:15:04.934
Well, I hope -- I mean if the

369
00:15:04.934 --> 00:15:06.968
six principles are

370
00:15:06.968 --> 00:15:09.501
going to be implemented, it is over.

371
00:15:09.501 --> 00:15:12.067
Of course, there is going to be a long political process of

372
00:15:12.067 --> 00:15:14.234
finding the solution to the political status, the future

373
00:15:14.234 --> 00:15:16.100
political status of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

374
00:15:16.100 --> 00:15:18.067
Karl Bilt (ph), who you know -- you

375
00:15:18.067 --> 00:15:20.200
know who he is.

376
00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:22.467
You know what he said.

377
00:15:22.467 --> 00:15:24.701
He said it parallels the darkest chapters of Europe's history

378
00:15:24.701 --> 00:15:26.634
what has happened there, and what Russia did.

379
00:15:26.634 --> 00:15:28.767
Well, I think it is a vast

380
00:15:28.767 --> 00:15:31.067
exaggeration, vast exaggeration.

381
00:15:31.067 --> 00:15:33.400
What happened?

382
00:15:33.400 --> 00:15:35.734
I mean if you are talking about the invasion of South Ossetia,

383
00:15:35.734 --> 00:15:38.167
I think it does have parallels.

384
00:15:38.167 --> 00:15:40.400
I mean, what were they expecting?

385
00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:42.501
Were they expecting that our peace keepers were going to do

386
00:15:42.501 --> 00:15:44.667
what the peace keepers in Cerbrenitza (ph) did, that they

387
00:15:44.667 --> 00:15:46.868
were going to run away?

388
00:15:46.868 --> 00:15:48.767
Was it the expectation?

389
00:15:48.767 --> 00:15:50.701
We didn't want one of the darkest chapters of the history

390
00:15:50.701 --> 00:15:52.434
of Europe to be repeated, in terms of ethnic

391
00:15:52.434 --> 00:15:54.501
cleansing and genocide.

392
00:15:54.501 --> 00:15:57.000
That's the why we acted the way we did.

393
00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.367
Where is the dialogue now?

394
00:15:59.367 --> 00:16:02.267
Well, the dialogue is -- has been very

395
00:16:02.267 --> 00:16:04.934
good dialogue between Russia and the presidency of the

396
00:16:04.934 --> 00:16:07.634
European Union.

397
00:16:07.634 --> 00:16:10.634
Now, we are to implement th six principles and re-establish

398
00:16:10.634 --> 00:16:13.567
tranquility to that part of the world.

399
00:16:13.567 --> 00:16:16.300
Is there any concern that somehow we have --

400
00:16:16.300 --> 00:16:18.901
that this is going to do damage to Russian-American relations?

401
00:16:18.901 --> 00:16:21.334
You know, yes, but we don't want the

402
00:16:21.334 --> 00:16:23.734
Russian-American relations to be damaged.

403
00:16:23.734 --> 00:16:26.434
But, you know, we are not pressing our flesh on the

404
00:16:26.434 --> 00:16:28.968
United States.

405
00:16:28.968 --> 00:16:31.634
We think we have an equal interest in relations.

406
00:16:31.634 --> 00:16:34.234
We think that we are working together on a number of very

407
00:16:34.234 --> 00:16:36.801
important international issues.

408
00:16:36.801 --> 00:16:39.501
If the United States were to decide to go it alone, they

409
00:16:39.501 --> 00:16:42.501
would have a perfect opportunity to do that.

410
00:16:42.501 --> 00:16:45.467
Is it a watershed moment, as some have said?

411
00:16:45.467 --> 00:16:48.501
We -- I don't think so.

412
00:16:48.501 --> 00:16:51.334
I think that we have now an excellent opportunity of

413
00:16:51.334 --> 00:16:53.968
cooperation, even on resolving this matter, and of course to

414
00:16:53.968 --> 00:16:56.434
keep working on the broad agenda we have before us.

415
00:16:56.434 --> 00:16:58.834
Thank you for coming on a very busy day.

416
00:16:58.834 --> 00:17:01.133
Good to see you.

417
00:17:01.133 --> 00:17:03.367
Thank you.

418
00:17:03.367 --> 00:17:06.534
Vitaly Churkin is Russia's ambassador to the

419
00:17:06.534 --> 00:17:09.434
United Nations.

420
00:17:09.434 --> 00:17:12.100
We will be right back.

421
00:17:12.100 --> 00:17:14.634
Stay with us.

422
00:17:14.634 --> 00:17:17.334
Dr. James Hanson is here.

423
00:17:17.334 --> 00:17:19.901
He is the director of NASA's Goddard

424
00:17:19.901 --> 00:17:22.467
Institute for Space Studies.

425
00:17:22.467 --> 00:17:25.167
His Congressional testimony in 1988 brought national attention

426
00:17:25.167 --> 00:17:27.934
to the issue of global warming.

427
00:17:27.934 --> 00:17:30.734
He said at the time that the greenhouse effect has been

428
00:17:30.734 --> 00:17:33.400
detected and it is changing our climate now.

429
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:36.133
Today, he is one of the most respected experts on climate

430
00:17:36.133 --> 00:17:38.734
change in this country and around the world.

431
00:17:38.734 --> 00:17:41.367
He has never hesitated to speak out.

432
00:17:41.367 --> 00:17:44.367
In 2006, he made headlines when he accused the Bush

433
00:17:44.367 --> 00:17:47.434
administration of censorship.

434
00:17:47.434 --> 00:17:50.968
His story is the subject of a recent book called "Censoring

435
00:17:50.968 --> 00:17:54.100
Science, Inside the Political Attack on Dr. James Hanson." I

436
00:17:54.100 --> 00:17:56.934
am pleased to have him here at this table for the first time to

437
00:17:56.934 --> 00:17:59.334
talk about where we are in climate -- in global warming and

438
00:17:59.334 --> 00:18:03.901
climate issues. Welcome.

439
00:18:03.901 --> 00:18:06.367
Glad to be here.

440
00:18:06.367 --> 00:18:09.200
You just returned from around the world.

441
00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.267
Tell me who you saw.

442
00:18:12.267 --> 00:18:15.334
Tell me what the response was and where we are and are you

443
00:18:15.334 --> 00:18:18.601
encouraged or pessimistic about what countries are doing?

444
00:18:18.601 --> 00:18:21.567
Well, I am a little discouraged based on this

445
00:18:21.567 --> 00:18:24.767
trip, because even those countries that talk the right

446
00:18:24.767 --> 00:18:28.100
line and recognize there is a problem are not taking the

447
00:18:28.100 --> 00:18:31.434
actions that are needed to deal with it.

448
00:18:31.434 --> 00:18:34.167
Now I had written a letter, a dear Chancellor, to Dr. erkel,

449
00:18:34.167 --> 00:18:37.000
the German leader, with the thought that as a physicist, she

450
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.367
could understand the basic geo- physical boundary conditions on

451
00:18:39.367 --> 00:18:41.367
the climate problem.

452
00:18:41.367 --> 00:18:43.133
And those are formed by looking at the magnitude of the fossil

453
00:18:43.133 --> 00:18:45.400
fuel reservoirs.

454
00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:47.901
There is oil.

455
00:18:47.901 --> 00:18:50.701
There is gas.

456
00:18:50.701 --> 00:18:53.667
And then there is coal, with coal being by far the largest

457
00:18:53.667 --> 00:18:56.667
source of atmospheric Carbon Dioxide.

458
00:18:56.667 --> 00:18:59.167
If we are going to solve the problem, we are going to either

459
00:18:59.167 --> 00:19:01.834
have to decide not to burn the coal, or if we do burn it, burn

460
00:19:01.834 --> 00:19:04.067
it at power plants where we capture the CO2

461
00:19:04.067 --> 00:19:06.534
and sequester it.

462
00:19:06.534 --> 00:19:09.167
Otherwise, the planet is headed eventually to

463
00:19:09.167 --> 00:19:11.334
an ice free state.

464
00:19:11.334 --> 00:19:13.501
There is enough carbon dioxide in these fossil fuels to take

465
00:19:13.501 --> 00:19:15.667
us back to where the Earth was before there was any ice.

466
00:19:15.667 --> 00:19:17.834
Let me make sure I understand

467
00:19:17.834 --> 00:19:20.000
what you just said.

468
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:22.067
Regardless of what we do about oil, the with respect to coal,

469
00:19:22.067 --> 00:19:24.200
unless we do something about coal, we are going to an ice

470
00:19:24.200 --> 00:19:26.100
less planet?

471
00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:28.400
Yes.

472
00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.367
We will go into more than double carbon

473
00:19:30.367 --> 00:19:32.367
dioxide in the atmosphere.

474
00:19:32.367 --> 00:19:34.200
It has already increased too from 280 to

475
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.067
320 parts per million.

476
00:19:36.067 --> 00:19:38.534
So what did the Germans and the Japanese say

477
00:19:38.534 --> 00:19:41.067
about doing something about coal burning plants?

478
00:19:41.067 --> 00:19:44.000
That's interesting thing.

479
00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:47.167
They recognize and their science adviser recognizes what I am

480
00:19:47.167 --> 00:19:50.367
saying is basically right.

481
00:19:50.367 --> 00:19:53.434
But they say, well, we will put a carbon -- carbon tax -- not a

482
00:19:53.434 --> 00:19:56.501
carbon tax, a carbon cap, and we will -- and we will try to

483
00:19:56.501 --> 00:19:59.434
reduce the CO2 emissions by 20 percent, and then 40 percent,

484
00:19:59.434 --> 00:20:02.400
and then 60 percent.

485
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.200
The problem is, in the meantime, they are allowing more and more

486
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.100
coal fired power plants to be built.

487
00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:10.767
And there is no way that you are going to stop most of the

488
00:20:10.767 --> 00:20:13.367
oil from being used.

489
00:20:13.367 --> 00:20:15.901
You can't tell Saudi Arabia or Russia not to sell its oil.

490
00:20:15.901 --> 00:20:18.467
You know that they are going to do it.

491
00:20:18.467 --> 00:20:20.934
And the thing is, when the CO2 gets in the atmosphere, much of

492
00:20:20.934 --> 00:20:23.267
it stays there more than 1,000 years.

493
00:20:23.267 --> 00:20:25.868
So you have to -- it doesn't matter if you slow down the

494
00:20:25.868 --> 00:20:28.467
emissions a little bit.

495
00:20:28.467 --> 00:20:31.534
That doesn't help much.

496
00:20:31.534 --> 00:20:34.367
We have to cut off the biggest source.

497
00:20:34.367 --> 00:20:37.000
That is coal.

498
00:20:37.000 --> 00:20:39.501
And we could do that, but, as of now, Germany is building a

499
00:20:39.501 --> 00:20:41.868
lot of coal fired power plants.

500
00:20:41.868 --> 00:20:44.133
Britain is planning to do that, the United States is.

501
00:20:44.133 --> 00:20:46.701
China does one a week.

502
00:20:46.701 --> 00:20:49.267
China does even more.

503
00:20:49.267 --> 00:20:51.701
But we can't say anything to China, because most of the

504
00:20:51.701 --> 00:20:54.267
excess CO2 in the atmosphere is from our history --

505
00:20:54.267 --> 00:20:56.667
from our history but not from today.

506
00:20:56.667 --> 00:20:59.000
Today, well, we are all -- we are almost the

507
00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:01.234
same -- the United States is almost the same as China.

508
00:21:01.234 --> 00:21:03.400
Who contributes the most today?

509
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:05.200
China has just passed us.

510
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:06.968
And they always look at what our past has been

511
00:21:06.968 --> 00:21:08.767
in order to say, don't point the finger at us?

512
00:21:08.767 --> 00:21:10.567
Right, because we are responsible

513
00:21:10.567 --> 00:21:12.367
for most of the

514
00:21:12.367 --> 00:21:14.501
stuff that is up there.

515
00:21:14.501 --> 00:21:16.367
Now, they are going to have to be part of the solution, but we

516
00:21:16.367 --> 00:21:18.534
are most of the problem.

517
00:21:18.534 --> 00:21:20.868
And so we have got to take the first step.

518
00:21:20.868 --> 00:21:23.133
We have got -- and we could.

519
00:21:23.133 --> 00:21:25.300
You know, it is the fossil fuel industry, which resists the

520
00:21:25.300 --> 00:21:27.567
changes that are necessary in order to solve the problem.

521
00:21:27.567 --> 00:21:30.501
What is the fossil fuel industry?

522
00:21:30.501 --> 00:21:33.767
Well, it is the coal industry and it's also the

523
00:21:33.767 --> 00:21:36.934
oil industry.

524
00:21:36.934 --> 00:21:40.033
But, you know, we could have a moratorium on new coal fired

525
00:21:40.033 --> 00:21:42.567
plants until we have the technology to capture the CO2

526
00:21:42.567 --> 00:21:45.634
and sequester it, or use alternative energies.

527
00:21:45.634 --> 00:21:48.400
And, in fact, I think we would end up using

528
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:51.200
alternative energies.

529
00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:54.100
But that is -- that -- the marketplace should decide that.

530
00:21:54.100 --> 00:21:56.501
And the only way to reduce the amount of coal is

531
00:21:56.501 --> 00:21:58.801
to stop building coal burning plants, yes?

532
00:21:58.801 --> 00:22:01.033
Yes, unless you capture the CO2

533
00:22:01.033 --> 00:22:03.200
and sequester it.

534
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.067
And as of today, we don't have that technology.

535
00:22:05.067 --> 00:22:07.000
We are close to it, but they have really not worked on it

536
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:08.667
very hard, because that will make it more expensive and they

537
00:22:08.667 --> 00:22:10.200
would rather --

538
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:11.601
So we don't have coal sequestration

539
00:22:11.601 --> 00:22:13.000
coal plants today.

540
00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:14.400
Right.

541
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.801
And we don't know how much they

542
00:22:15.801 --> 00:22:17.200
would cost and how

543
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:19.801
effective they would be today, right?

544
00:22:19.801 --> 00:22:22.901
It is probably possible to make them effective,

545
00:22:22.901 --> 00:22:26.133
although there are things about coal which make it less

546
00:22:26.133 --> 00:22:29.200
desirable that renewable energies.

547
00:22:29.200 --> 00:22:32.367
What do we do?

548
00:22:32.367 --> 00:22:35.200
If we can't sequester it today, are you still saying we ought

549
00:22:35.200 --> 00:22:38.067
to shut down all coal burning plants today?

550
00:22:38.067 --> 00:22:41.167
Well, we will have to phase them out over the

551
00:22:41.167 --> 00:22:43.734
next 20 years.

552
00:22:43.734 --> 00:22:46.634
We have shown if you phased out the existing plants between now

553
00:22:46.634 --> 00:22:49.501
and 2030, then the peek CO2 would be a little more than 400

554
00:22:49.501 --> 00:22:52.167
parts per million.

555
00:22:52.167 --> 00:22:54.901
And that would still be at a range where we could get it back

556
00:22:54.901 --> 00:22:57.801
to a safe level by means of improved agricultural and

557
00:22:57.801 --> 00:23:00.834
forestry practices, which soak up CO2.

558
00:23:00.834 --> 00:23:04.033
A lot of people are suggesting -- lots of

559
00:23:04.033 --> 00:23:07.367
people, because of our history and because of what we have done

560
00:23:07.367 --> 00:23:10.367
and haven't done, not being a signatory to Kyoto, all of that,

561
00:23:10.367 --> 00:23:13.734
that a new president, whoever he is, ought to take the lead in

562
00:23:13.734 --> 00:23:16.501
terms of looking at global environmental issues, including

563
00:23:16.501 --> 00:23:19.534
global warming and climate control.

564
00:23:19.534 --> 00:23:22.901
If the president decided to do that, what is the minimum he has

565
00:23:22.901 --> 00:23:25.934
to do?

566
00:23:25.934 --> 00:23:28.467
That is exactly what is needed.

567
00:23:28.467 --> 00:23:30.834
We need the next president to take a leadership role in this.

568
00:23:30.834 --> 00:23:33.467
A globa leadership role.

569
00:23:33.467 --> 00:23:36.234
Right.

570
00:23:36.234 --> 00:23:39.367
And the most important thing will be to have a moratorium on

571
00:23:39.367 --> 00:23:42.801
new coal fired power plants until we have the technology to

572
00:23:42.801 --> 00:23:46.534
capture the CO2.

573
00:23:46.534 --> 00:23:50.000
We are also going to have to have a price on carbon

574
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.300
emissions to encourage the innovations, the renewable

575
00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:56.501
energies, the energy efficiency that is needed so that we can

576
00:23:56.501 --> 00:23:59.734
move beyond fossil fuels.

577
00:23:59.734 --> 00:24:02.734
Fossil fuels are finite.

578
00:24:02.734 --> 00:24:05.601
We are going to have to find a way to live without fossil

579
00:24:05.601 --> 00:24:08.334
fuels on the long run, and why not do it now and save the

580
00:24:08.334 --> 00:24:11.033
climate in the process?

581
00:24:11.033 --> 00:24:14.100
Just for my information, no matter how much

582
00:24:14.100 --> 00:24:16.968
drilling and how much we spend for drilling in places we

583
00:24:16.968 --> 00:24:19.634
haven't been drilling, no matter how much new technology we have

584
00:24:19.634 --> 00:24:22.267
for drilling, there is not enough fossil fuels to be

585
00:24:22.267 --> 00:24:24.934
uncovered, discovered and extracted?

586
00:24:24.934 --> 00:24:27.534
Absolutely.

587
00:24:27.534 --> 00:24:30.534
We are already approximately at peak oil, which means we have

588
00:24:30.534 --> 00:24:33.300
used about half of it.

589
00:24:33.300 --> 00:24:36.067
So it is going to -- the supplies of oil are going to

590
00:24:36.067 --> 00:24:38.767
continue to be tight from now on, because we are -- we have

591
00:24:38.767 --> 00:24:41.300
used about half of it.

592
00:24:41.300 --> 00:24:44.033
So we should be thinking what are we going to do beyond oil?

593
00:24:44.033 --> 00:24:46.367
And when does it end, basically, if you look at

594
00:24:46.367 --> 00:24:48.601
the kind of projections you see?

595
00:24:48.601 --> 00:24:51.000
Well, it would last several more decades.

596
00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:53.501
Right.

597
00:24:53.501 --> 00:24:56.367
But with a decreasing amount, and so the

598
00:24:56.367 --> 00:24:59.100
price will -- on the long run, it will fluctuate, but it will

599
00:24:59.100 --> 00:25:01.701
continue to go up if we don't have alternatives.

600
00:25:01.701 --> 00:25:03.968
Once we have alternatives, then we may end up leaving part of

601
00:25:03.968 --> 00:25:06.467
the oil in the ground, which would not be a bad idea.

602
00:25:06.467 --> 00:25:09.300
Simply because we shouldn't be using it, not

603
00:25:09.300 --> 00:25:11.901
because of any other reason?

604
00:25:11.901 --> 00:25:14.634
Well, because we will find better alternatives.

605
00:25:14.634 --> 00:25:17.267
Alternatives for you in part is nuclear.

606
00:25:17.267 --> 00:25:19.501
Well, we should be looking at it.

607
00:25:19.501 --> 00:25:21.467
That is actually an interesting story, and that is discussed in

608
00:25:21.467 --> 00:25:23.434
a book that is about to come out by Tom Blees.

609
00:25:23.434 --> 00:25:29.133
Right. Blees?

610
00:25:29.133 --> 00:25:32.400
Blees, yes.

611
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.501
One of the things he points out is that in 1994, Argon National

612
00:25:35.501 --> 00:25:38.467
Laboratory had put together the basic elements to make a fourth

613
00:25:38.467 --> 00:25:41.234
generation nuclear power plant, and the Clinton administration

614
00:25:41.234 --> 00:25:43.701
decided to cancel the project.

615
00:25:43.701 --> 00:25:46.067
The thing about fourth generation nuclear power, that

616
00:25:46.067 --> 00:25:48.100
is the so-called fast reactor.

617
00:25:48.100 --> 00:25:50.133
Right.

618
00:25:50.133 --> 00:25:52.133
A breeder reactor, which burns all of the

619
00:25:52.133 --> 00:25:54.234
nuclear material.

620
00:25:54.234 --> 00:25:57.067
The present generation --

621
00:25:57.067 --> 00:25:59.400
So there is no waste?

622
00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:01.934
So there is no -- so there is minimal waste.

623
00:26:01.934 --> 00:26:04.067
Now, we burn less than one percent of the nuclear energy in

624
00:26:04.067 --> 00:26:06.334
the uranium.

625
00:26:06.334 --> 00:26:08.534
And most of it is waste that has lifetimes of tens of

626
00:26:08.534 --> 00:26:10.434
thousands of years.

627
00:26:10.434 --> 00:26:13.033
And it has to be stored somewhere.

628
00:26:13.033 --> 00:26:16.200
It has to be stored someplace for a very long

629
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.968
time period.

630
00:26:18.968 --> 00:26:21.300
With the fourth generation nuclear power, it burns all of

631
00:26:21.300 --> 00:26:23.701
this waste, which solves our waste problem, and minimizes the

632
00:26:23.701 --> 00:26:25.767
dangers of proliferation.

633
00:26:25.767 --> 00:26:28.400
OK.

634
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:30.868
Where are they using fourth generation nuclear

635
00:26:30.868 --> 00:26:33.467
power plants today?

636
00:26:33.467 --> 00:26:36.334
India has an initial reactor, and there are

637
00:26:36.334 --> 00:26:39.167
other countries that are also doing this.

638
00:26:39.167 --> 00:26:41.634
So the thought was, I think that what -- in the Clinton

639
00:26:41.634 --> 00:26:44.133
administration, I think that the extreme environmentalists put a

640
00:26:44.133 --> 00:26:46.734
lot of pressure on them, and thought maybe we will end up

641
00:26:46.734 --> 00:26:49.200
with a nuclear free world.

642
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.167
But, in fact, we can't control the rest of the world, and

643
00:26:52.167 --> 00:26:55.000
there are several other countries that are working on

644
00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:57.634
this fourth generation of nuclear power.

645
00:26:57.634 --> 00:27:00.367
So we shouldn't give up our ability to control and help

646
00:27:00.367 --> 00:27:03.300
maintain standards on how that is done.

647
00:27:03.300 --> 00:27:06.367
Among people concerned about global warming

648
00:27:06.367 --> 00:27:09.868
and also concerned about protecting the environment in

649
00:27:09.868 --> 00:27:13.033
general, not extremist, but people who have a heightened

650
00:27:13.033 --> 00:27:15.701
concern, is there a critical mass saying nuclear is the

651
00:27:15.701 --> 00:27:18.267
answer, in addition to alternative fuels?

652
00:27:18.267 --> 00:27:20.467
I think that there would be if people looked

653
00:27:20.467 --> 00:27:22.367
at it very carefully.

654
00:27:22.367 --> 00:27:24.167
Many people are just afraid of nuclear because of the world.

655
00:27:24.167 --> 00:27:26.434
It has been demonized.

656
00:27:26.434 --> 00:27:28.968
Reputation.

657
00:27:28.968 --> 00:27:31.100
Its reputation.

658
00:27:31.100 --> 00:27:33.434
But I think we need to take a hard look at that.

659
00:27:33.434 --> 00:27:35.868
And, in fact, I think it has potential to be a good part of

660
00:27:35.868 --> 00:27:38.400
the solution.

661
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.167
But, you know, frankly, I hope that renewable energies can do

662
00:27:41.167 --> 00:27:44.200
the job, and some people think that they will.

663
00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.501
If we had a low loss electric grid that allowed us to send

664
00:27:47.501 --> 00:27:50.534
energy around the country, so that we could make better use

665
00:27:50.534 --> 00:27:53.367
of the solar energy in the Southwest and the wind where it

666
00:27:53.367 --> 00:27:56.000
is abundant, then maybe renewables could do the job.

667
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.501
I kind of doubt that.

668
00:27:58.501 --> 00:28:00.834
Through renewables, you talk about solar

669
00:28:00.834 --> 00:28:03.234
and wind.

670
00:28:03.234 --> 00:28:05.834
Those are the two.

671
00:28:05.834 --> 00:28:08.434
Those are the two that have a lot of potential.

672
00:28:08.434 --> 00:28:11.100
Today?

673
00:28:11.100 --> 00:28:13.601
You know, today they are only like one percent

674
00:28:13.601 --> 00:28:16.567
of our electric power.

675
00:28:16.567 --> 00:28:19.501
And they are financially feasible when oil is

676
00:28:19.501 --> 00:28:22.901
at 100?

677
00:28:22.901 --> 00:28:26.133
Well, wind is now financially feasible.

678
00:28:26.133 --> 00:28:29.367
It is competitive.

679
00:28:29.367 --> 00:28:32.701
It is close to the other -- solar is still more expensive,

680
00:28:32.701 --> 00:28:35.634
but solar thermal is getting close.

681
00:28:35.634 --> 00:28:38.467
In fact, there is a plant being built in Nevada that will

682
00:28:38.467 --> 00:28:41.601
supply electricity to California based on solar thermal.

683
00:28:41.601 --> 00:28:44.601
So I think it has potential.

684
00:28:44.601 --> 00:28:47.367
But, again it is a distribution problem.

685
00:28:47.367 --> 00:28:50.434
So these different things should be allowed to compete,

686
00:28:50.434 --> 00:28:53.234
but I think we should not have just thrown in the towel on

687
00:28:53.234 --> 00:28:56.434
nuclear, because there is a very good chance -- there is

688
00:28:56.434 --> 00:28:59.100
enough -- the nuclear waste that we have provides enough energy

689
00:28:59.100 --> 00:29:01.767
to last us for a few hundreds years.

690
00:29:01.767 --> 00:29:04.000
We wouldn't have to mine anymore uranium in the next few

691
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:06.434
hundred years.

692
00:29:06.434 --> 00:29:08.534
We could just use the nuclear waste we have

693
00:29:08.534 --> 00:29:10.701
and solve that problem.

694
00:29:10.701 --> 00:29:12.601
You are against all drilling

695
00:29:12.601 --> 00:29:15.033
offshore anywhere else.

696
00:29:15.033 --> 00:29:17.767
In other words, we should have a cessation or a draw down of

697
00:29:17.767 --> 00:29:20.767
drilling for new oil?

698
00:29:20.767 --> 00:29:23.234
Well, I think that if we put a proper price on

699
00:29:23.234 --> 00:29:25.601
carbon emissions that that would discourage going to the

700
00:29:25.601 --> 00:29:27.634
extreme environments, to the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge

701
00:29:27.634 --> 00:29:29.634
and those place.

702
00:29:29.634 --> 00:29:31.934
There is not enough oil there to solve the problem.

703
00:29:31.934 --> 00:29:34.234
Exactly.

704
00:29:34.234 --> 00:29:36.767
So it just doesn't make sense to do that.

705
00:29:36.767 --> 00:29:39.067
I think we need to find the energy sources that we are going

706
00:29:39.067 --> 00:29:41.567
to be using the rest of this century.

707
00:29:41.567 --> 00:29:43.667
And that will make it unnecessary to go to these

708
00:29:43.667 --> 00:29:45.501
extreme environments.

709
00:29:45.501 --> 00:29:47.400
Are we going to have to get serious about

710
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:49.834
conservation in order to do it?

711
00:29:49.834 --> 00:29:51.968
Oh, absolutely.

712
00:29:51.968 --> 00:29:53.834
The energy efficiency is the cheapest new energy.

713
00:29:53.834 --> 00:29:55.467
We could reduce our energy use by -- in many

714
00:29:55.467 --> 00:29:57.400
cases, by 50 percent.

715
00:29:57.400 --> 00:29:59.734
Fifty percent?

716
00:29:59.734 --> 00:30:02.100
Yes.

717
00:30:02.100 --> 00:30:04.501
Sure, just compare California, where they have had a few

718
00:30:04.501 --> 00:30:07.434
decades in which they have tried to make their use more

719
00:30:07.434 --> 00:30:10.367
efficient, compare that with some other states.

720
00:30:10.367 --> 00:30:12.767
There are some other states that use more than twice as much

721
00:30:12.767 --> 00:30:15.200
energy per unit measured GNP or whatever. So yes. there is a lot

722
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:17.634
of potential in efficiency.

723
00:30:17.634 --> 00:30:20.033
Global warming. There was the debate among some

724
00:30:20.033 --> 00:30:22.467
who said, yes, global warming

725
00:30:22.467 --> 00:30:25.667
is an issue.

726
00:30:25.667 --> 00:30:28.934
But on the other hand, we don't believe it all came from -- it

727
00:30:28.934 --> 00:30:32.200
wasn't because of human contribution.

728
00:30:32.200 --> 00:30:35.434
That argument is over or not?

729
00:30:35.434 --> 00:30:38.367
Well, yes, practically it is over.

730
00:30:38.367 --> 00:30:41.300
But in the public's eye, it is not because the fossil fuel

731
00:30:41.300 --> 00:30:44.434
industry continues to promote the idea that the argument is

732
00:30:44.434 --> 00:30:47.200
still going on.

733
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:50.167
You know, we have a National Academy of Sciences, which

734
00:30:50.167 --> 00:30:53.400
President Lincoln established to advise the government on

735
00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:56.601
technical issues like this.

736
00:30:56.601 --> 00:30:59.701
Well, at the beginning of the Bush administration, they did

737
00:30:59.701 --> 00:31:02.634
ask the Academy to look at the global warming problem, because

738
00:31:02.634 --> 00:31:05.667
they had the impression that the Academy would be critical of

739
00:31:05.667 --> 00:31:08.634
the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United

740
00:31:08.634 --> 00:31:11.100
Nations' scientific group.

741
00:31:11.100 --> 00:31:13.601
Well, in fact, the Academy came out with a very strong statement

742
00:31:13.601 --> 00:31:15.701
that said this is real and this is a problem and

743
00:31:15.701 --> 00:31:17.868
we need to do things.

744
00:31:17.868 --> 00:31:19.868
So the administration has not asked for anymore advice.

745
00:31:19.868 --> 00:31:22.133
Right.

746
00:31:22.133 --> 00:31:24.934
They prefer to make the policy and then try to

747
00:31:24.934 --> 00:31:28.234
get the science to fit the policy.

748
00:31:28.234 --> 00:31:31.234
My impression, and I think you have a different

749
00:31:31.234 --> 00:31:34.267
impression of this, and you can correct me, oil company

750
00:31:34.267 --> 00:31:37.367
executives that I have talked to recognize that global warming

751
00:31:37.367 --> 00:31:40.167
is real.

752
00:31:40.167 --> 00:31:43.033
It is not some seasonal change, you know.

753
00:31:43.033 --> 00:31:46.033
And that we have to do something dramatic about our

754
00:31:46.033 --> 00:31:48.834
addiction to oil.

755
00:31:48.834 --> 00:31:51.567
They said that at this table.

756
00:31:51.567 --> 00:31:54.300
Now, you have said basically something more -- you pointed a

757
00:31:54.300 --> 00:31:56.968
much more serious finger at them.

758
00:31:56.968 --> 00:31:59.501
Where am I wrong?

759
00:31:59.501 --> 00:32:01.634
Where are they wrong to come to this table and say we believe

760
00:32:01.634 --> 00:32:04.133
that global warming is a reality, and we believe we have

761
00:32:04.133 --> 00:32:06.467
to do something about it.

762
00:32:06.467 --> 00:32:08.901
We understand the danger.

763
00:32:08.901 --> 00:32:11.734
And we understand what has contributed to it?

764
00:32:11.734 --> 00:32:14.467
Look at their investments.

765
00:32:14.467 --> 00:32:17.667
They have hundreds of billions of dollars of profits.

766
00:32:17.667 --> 00:32:20.567
How much of that is being put into investments in future

767
00:32:20.567 --> 00:32:23.267
energies to replace the fossil fuels?

768
00:32:23.267 --> 00:32:25.834
In companies like Exxon/Mobil, it is totally negligible.

769
00:32:25.834 --> 00:32:28.033
What are they putting it into?

770
00:32:28.033 --> 00:32:30.300
Because they have all of these commercials on the air talking

771
00:32:30.300 --> 00:32:32.968
about batteries and how much money they are

772
00:32:32.968 --> 00:32:35.767
spending on batteries.

773
00:32:35.767 --> 00:32:38.801
That is what you call green wash.

774
00:32:38.801 --> 00:32:41.801
They want to appear to be doing something, but they're milking

775
00:32:41.801 --> 00:32:44.300
fossil fuels for all the profits they can get.

776
00:32:44.300 --> 00:32:46.467
And they are not spending those profits in term

777
00:32:46.467 --> 00:32:48.934
of research and development, or developing alternative sources

778
00:32:48.934 --> 00:32:51.067
of emergency?

779
00:32:51.067 --> 00:32:53.467
That's right.

780
00:32:53.467 --> 00:32:55.534
There are some fossil fuel companies that are beginning to

781
00:32:55.534 --> 00:32:57.334
do that.

782
00:32:57.334 --> 00:32:59.734
But the biggest ones, Exxon/Mobil in

783
00:32:59.734 --> 00:33:02.000
particular, are not.

784
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:04.634
Shell?

785
00:33:04.634 --> 00:33:07.267
Shell, I am going to give a talk to Shell

786
00:33:07.267 --> 00:33:09.868
executives in the near future.

787
00:33:09.868 --> 00:33:11.634
I will find out, but that -- you know, that is what we have to

788
00:33:11.634 --> 00:33:13.367
change, because these are the captains of industry.

789
00:33:13.367 --> 00:33:15.100
These are the people who could solve the problem.

790
00:33:15.100 --> 00:33:16.834
Because they have the

791
00:33:16.834 --> 00:33:18.601
resources and the scientists

792
00:33:18.601 --> 00:33:20.033
to do it.

793
00:33:20.033 --> 00:33:21.501
Yes, they are the ones who could solve the

794
00:33:21.501 --> 00:33:22.968
problem, better than the government.

795
00:33:22.968 --> 00:33:24.434
Do you think they don't want

796
00:33:24.434 --> 00:33:25.868
to solve the problem,

797
00:33:25.868 --> 00:33:27.601
is that the point?

798
00:33:27.601 --> 00:33:29.534
Some of them don't because it

799
00:33:29.534 --> 00:33:31.467
is just too profitable.

800
00:33:31.467 --> 00:33:33.434
Their profits now are just too great.

801
00:33:33.434 --> 00:33:35.400
Not withstanding the consequences?

802
00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:37.367
Not withstanding the consequences.

803
00:33:37.367 --> 00:33:39.601
Of automobile emissions, they are prepared --

804
00:33:39.601 --> 00:33:42.367
That's why I am trying to draw to their

805
00:33:42.367 --> 00:33:45.501
attention how they are going to be viewed by their own children

806
00:33:45.501 --> 00:33:48.701
and grandchildren, because they are actually spending money to

807
00:33:48.701 --> 00:33:52.000
disinform the public and, therefore, prevent the actions

808
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.200
that are need to solve -- to avoid climate disasters.

809
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:58.734
So if we do get climate disasters, then I feel that they

810
00:33:58.734 --> 00:34:02.033
are responsible for that, because they are preventing us

811
00:34:02.033 --> 00:34:05.567
from doing things which would make a lot of sense anyhow.

812
00:34:05.567 --> 00:34:09.167
This book is written by Mark Bowen (ph) and

813
00:34:09.167 --> 00:34:12.901
basically it is about what happened to you.

814
00:34:12.901 --> 00:34:16.501
I am much more interested personally in terms of how you

815
00:34:16.501 --> 00:34:20.334
see the world, and what your prescriptions are than this

816
00:34:20.334 --> 00:34:23.901
experience that you have had, in which you testified before

817
00:34:23.901 --> 00:34:26.801
Congress in 1988, and then there were certain restrictions,

818
00:34:26.801 --> 00:34:30.033
and they even had a monitor they assigned to you to sort of

819
00:34:30.033 --> 00:34:32.701
-- from reading this book, rein you in, so that you didn't do

820
00:34:32.701 --> 00:34:35.467
so much media.

821
00:34:35.467 --> 00:34:38.200
You seemed to me to always be a man who says

822
00:34:38.200 --> 00:34:41.200
what is on his mind.

823
00:34:41.200 --> 00:34:43.901
So they were really trying to censor the wrong person.

824
00:34:43.901 --> 00:34:46.801
Well, yes, it was a mistake because it gave more

825
00:34:46.801 --> 00:34:50.067
publicity to the issue than it would have had if they just let

826
00:34:50.067 --> 00:34:53.200
me say what I was saying.

827
00:34:53.200 --> 00:34:56.033
But, you know, this is actually a very important issue, because

828
00:34:56.033 --> 00:34:58.734
this problem is not restricted to the current administration.

829
00:34:58.734 --> 00:35:01.000
And it is not restricted to the current party.

830
00:35:01.000 --> 00:35:03.767
You make a point that when you tried to talk --

831
00:35:03.767 --> 00:35:06.968
do some things with the Clinton administration in terms of

832
00:35:06.968 --> 00:35:10.501
global warming --

833
00:35:10.501 --> 00:35:13.667
yes, what really needs to be pointed out is that

834
00:35:13.667 --> 00:35:17.067
the -- these public affairs offices in the different science

835
00:35:17.067 --> 00:35:20.534
agencies are now staffed by political appointees who treat

836
00:35:20.534 --> 00:35:23.634
these as offices of propaganda.

837
00:35:23.634 --> 00:35:26.467
So, -- and when there is a new election, if there is a change

838
00:35:26.467 --> 00:35:28.968
of party in power, those people will be out instantly.

839
00:35:28.968 --> 00:35:30.667
And there will be new people put in.

840
00:35:30.667 --> 00:35:32.367
And they feel -- and they don't give up --

841
00:35:32.367 --> 00:35:34.033
OK.

842
00:35:34.033 --> 00:35:35.734
-- the ability to control the

843
00:35:35.734 --> 00:35:37.434
information going to

844
00:35:37.434 --> 00:35:39.133
the public.

845
00:35:39.133 --> 00:35:40.834
Let me make this again

846
00:35:40.834 --> 00:35:42.534
in terms of a prescription

847
00:35:42.534 --> 00:35:45.300
from you for a new president.

848
00:35:45.300 --> 00:35:48.200
What would you want a new president to insist on that

849
00:35:48.200 --> 00:35:51.100
comes out of your experience that is detailed in this book,

850
00:35:51.100 --> 00:35:53.767
Censoring Science?

851
00:35:53.767 --> 00:35:56.868
What promise would you like to hear from a new president about

852
00:35:56.868 --> 00:36:00.234
science and scientific consequences?

853
00:36:00.234 --> 00:36:04.067
Two things.

854
00:36:04.067 --> 00:36:07.400
One is that the offices of public affairs should become

855
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:10.701
professional offices under civil servants, who are protected by

856
00:36:10.701 --> 00:36:14.467
civil service regulations, so that they are not subject to

857
00:36:14.467 --> 00:36:18.601
political pressures.

858
00:36:18.601 --> 00:36:22.567
That would be an enormous improvement.

859
00:36:22.567 --> 00:36:26.033
The other thing is that th Executive Branch should give up

860
00:36:26.033 --> 00:36:29.200
its practice of demanding that all government scientists get

861
00:36:29.200 --> 00:36:32.300
their testimonies approved by the Office of Management and

862
00:36:32.300 --> 00:36:35.100
Budget before they can testify to Congress.

863
00:36:35.100 --> 00:36:37.734
It makes no sense.

864
00:36:37.734 --> 00:36:40.634
The government scientists are paid by the public.

865
00:36:40.634 --> 00:36:44.200
And Congress should ge unadulterated information from

866
00:36:44.200 --> 00:36:47.367
the scientists.

867
00:36:47.367 --> 00:36:50.234
It shouldn't be determined by the Executive Branch.

868
00:36:50.234 --> 00:36:52.868
Is there any censorship of you today?

869
00:36:52.868 --> 00:36:55.133
I mean, you are on this program.

870
00:36:55.133 --> 00:36:57.300
You can pretty much say whatever you want to today, can't you?

871
00:36:57.300 --> 00:36:59.634
Yes, that is because of all of the publicity

872
00:36:59.634 --> 00:37:01.634
that surrounded this.

873
00:37:01.634 --> 00:37:04.367
They realized it was a lost cause and that you

874
00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:07.400
had become so highly visible that it was not politically wise

875
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:10.033
to try to censor you?

876
00:37:10.033 --> 00:37:12.934
But I am sure you have seen the stories in the

877
00:37:12.934 --> 00:37:15.868
last several weeks and months about scientists in EPA, in the

878
00:37:15.868 --> 00:37:18.934
National Institute of Health.

879
00:37:18.934 --> 00:37:21.934
They are still not free to say what the science says.

880
00:37:21.934 --> 00:37:24.434
You know, that is the important thing.

881
00:37:24.434 --> 00:37:27.100
Scientists should not be attempting to determine policy,

882
00:37:27.100 --> 00:37:29.968
but they shouldn't be prevented from describing

883
00:37:29.968 --> 00:37:32.834
the science accurately.

884
00:37:32.834 --> 00:37:36.033
And then the elected representatives of the people

885
00:37:36.033 --> 00:37:38.667
can make the decisions, and they can many overrule what

886
00:37:38.667 --> 00:37:41.501
might be indicated by the science, because there may be

887
00:37:41.501 --> 00:37:44.133
other considerations and the elected representatives should

888
00:37:44.133 --> 00:37:46.868
make the decisions.

889
00:37:46.868 --> 00:37:49.868
But they shouldn't do it by changing the science.

890
00:37:49.868 --> 00:37:52.868
Al Gore said when the history of the climate

891
00:37:52.868 --> 00:37:56.067
crisis is written, Hanson will be seen as a scientist with the

892
00:37:56.067 --> 00:37:59.033
most powerful and consistent voice calling for intelligent

893
00:37:59.033 --> 00:38:02.100
action to preserve our planet's environment.

894
00:38:02.100 --> 00:38:04.734
To review now, as we close, intelligent action has to do

895
00:38:04.734 --> 00:38:07.067
with coal burning plants.

896
00:38:07.067 --> 00:38:09.934
It has to do with no more drilling for oil.

897
00:38:09.934 --> 00:38:12.667
It has to -- go ahead.

898
00:38:12.667 --> 00:38:15.000
Yes.

899
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:16.968
We should -- I wouldn't completely rule out drilling

900
00:38:16.968 --> 00:38:18.968
for oil, but we shouldn't be going to

901
00:38:18.968 --> 00:38:20.934
these extreme environments.

902
00:38:20.934 --> 00:38:23.767
And the point is --

903
00:38:23.767 --> 00:38:26.133
Some off shore is OK but Alaska is not?

904
00:38:26.133 --> 00:38:28.534
Even off shore, we are better off if we leave

905
00:38:28.534 --> 00:38:31.067
that oil in the ground and focus on renewable energy and

906
00:38:31.067 --> 00:38:33.234
energy efficiency.

907
00:38:33.234 --> 00:38:35.634
The third thing is energy efficiency and the

908
00:38:35.634 --> 00:38:38.267
fourth thing is renewable, sun and wind.

909
00:38:38.267 --> 00:38:40.834
Right.

910
00:38:40.834 --> 00:38:43.234
And we should look at fourth generation nuclear power.

911
00:38:43.234 --> 00:38:46.267
We shouldn't just rule out nuclear because it scares us.

912
00:38:46.267 --> 00:38:48.801
Have either of the two political candidates

913
00:38:48.801 --> 00:38:51.200
expressed any interest in talking to you?

914
00:38:51.200 --> 00:38:53.234
Their people have, and so far I

915
00:38:53.234 --> 00:38:55.267
have resisted it.

916
00:38:55.267 --> 00:38:57.300
I am not either a Democrat or Republican.

917
00:38:57.300 --> 00:38:59.067
Yes, but --

918
00:38:59.067 --> 00:39:01.100
I'm an independent.

919
00:39:01.100 --> 00:39:03.267
That was not true in 2004 and John Kerry?

920
00:39:03.267 --> 00:39:05.868
Right.

921
00:39:05.868 --> 00:39:09.033
At that time I said, I hoped -- I wished that John McCain were

922
00:39:09.033 --> 00:39:11.667
on the ballot, but he wasn't.

923
00:39:11.667 --> 00:39:14.968
And of the two candidates, I preferred John Kerry.

924
00:39:14.968 --> 00:39:17.767
And now, I am disappointed with some of the things that McCain

925
00:39:17.767 --> 00:39:20.300
has said.

926
00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:22.968
So I am not yet -- I have not yet made a commitment as to --

927
00:39:22.968 --> 00:39:25.234
A choice?

928
00:39:25.234 --> 00:39:27.200
-- a choice.

929
00:39:27.200 --> 00:39:29.167
But I am trying to make clear what the scientific story is.

930
00:39:29.167 --> 00:39:30.968
OK.

931
00:39:30.968 --> 00:39:33.100
You have help us understand.

932
00:39:33.100 --> 00:39:35.534
"Censoring Science" is a book by Mark Bowen.

933
00:39:35.534 --> 00:39:38.234
It is about Dr. James Hanson.

934
00:39:38.234 --> 00:39:41.434
It is not just Al Gore, but he is one of the people when the

935
00:39:41.434 --> 00:39:44.434
Congress wants to know more, they call to testify, and one

936
00:39:44.434 --> 00:39:47.000
of the people respected by climatologists and I am pleased

937
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:49.334
to have him here, and hope that I can get you back and we can do

938
00:39:49.334 --> 00:39:51.200
a significant more number of programs on the issue.

939
00:39:51.200 --> 00:39:54.567
Thank you.

940
00:39:54.567 --> 00:40:06.601
Thank you.

941
00:40:06.601 --> 00:40:10.901
Wole Soyinka joins us.

942
00:40:10.901 --> 00:40:14.601
He is a Nobel Prize writer from Nigeria.

943
00:40:14.601 --> 00:40:17.634
in 1988, he published a volume called "Mandela's Earth and

944
00:40:17.634 --> 00:40:20.367
Other Poems." I am pleased to have him on this program to talk

945
00:40:20.367 --> 00:40:23.167
about Nelson Mandela.

946
00:40:23.167 --> 00:40:26.501
Welcome to the program.

947
00:40:26.501 --> 00:40:29.267
Thank you.

948
00:40:29.267 --> 00:40:31.834
Tell me about Nelson Mandela.

949
00:40:31.834 --> 00:40:34.634
Well, you asked the biggest question right from

950
00:40:34.634 --> 00:40:37.234
the beginning.

951
00:40:37.234 --> 00:40:40.167
I do.

952
00:40:40.167 --> 00:40:43.501
Tell me about Nelson Mandela.

953
00:40:43.501 --> 00:40:47.234
What can one say?

954
00:40:47.234 --> 00:40:50.300
I have described him before as an avatar.

955
00:40:50.300 --> 00:40:53.701
And you remember the fellow we have (INAUDIBLE) of

956
00:40:53.701 --> 00:40:57.133
anthropomorphic deities, who are sort of part

957
00:40:57.133 --> 00:41:00.601
human and part deity.

958
00:41:00.601 --> 00:41:03.434
And I think that Nelson Mandela belongs to that group.

959
00:41:03.434 --> 00:41:06.100
After Rishanla (ph), the supreme deity, maybe.

960
00:41:06.100 --> 00:41:08.567
He threw the mold away, to use a cliche, but one which I think

961
00:41:08.567 --> 00:41:10.934
is very true.

962
00:41:10.934 --> 00:41:13.200
Threw the mold away.

963
00:41:13.200 --> 00:41:15.133
No one like him before or after him?

964
00:41:15.133 --> 00:41:17.200
No, non whatsoever.

965
00:41:17.200 --> 00:41:20.400
What made him great?

966
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:24.400
What makes him great?

967
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:28.334
Well, it is a mystery.

968
00:41:28.334 --> 00:41:32.801
You know that when Lennon died, the Russians went to great

969
00:41:32.801 --> 00:41:36.434
pains to preserve his brain and have it dissected to find out

970
00:41:36.434 --> 00:41:40.601
why he appeared to be different from other human beings.

971
00:41:40.601 --> 00:41:44.200
I think that besides Nelson Mandela, that kind of inquiry

972
00:41:44.200 --> 00:41:48.133
actually applies.

973
00:41:48.133 --> 00:41:51.334
Except that in the case of Mandela, it's not just the brain

974
00:41:51.334 --> 00:41:54.834
you have to examine.

975
00:41:54.834 --> 00:41:58.801
You really have to analyze his soul, his

976
00:41:58.801 --> 00:42:03.267
temperament, his genes.

977
00:42:03.267 --> 00:42:07.067
It would require almost a whole generation of scientific inquiry

978
00:42:07.067 --> 00:42:10.934
to discover what kind of a person really Nelson Mandela is.

979
00:42:10.934 --> 00:42:14.267
Well, he was so -- he so engaged you that you

980
00:42:14.267 --> 00:42:17.300
wrote these poems to him.

981
00:42:17.300 --> 00:42:19.934
I am just going to read one, a paragraph of one: "your logic

982
00:42:19.934 --> 00:42:22.901
frightens me, Mandela.

983
00:42:22.901 --> 00:42:26.234
Your logic frightens me, Mandela.

984
00:42:26.234 --> 00:42:29.634
Your logic frightens me.

985
00:42:29.634 --> 00:42:33.334
Those years of dreams, of time accelerated in visionary hopes

986
00:42:33.334 --> 00:42:37.634
of savoring the tasks anew, the call, the timbow (ph) prime, to

987
00:42:37.634 --> 00:42:41.100
burst in Supernova round of brave new world.

988
00:42:41.100 --> 00:42:45.167
Then stillness, silence, the world closes round, your soul

989
00:42:45.167 --> 00:42:48.467
reality, the rest is dreams."

990
00:42:48.467 --> 00:42:52.234
Why did you write this?

991
00:42:52.234 --> 00:42:56.334
What was it about Nelson Mandela that engaged a

992
00:42:56.334 --> 00:43:00.534
poetry of your soul?

993
00:43:00.534 --> 00:43:04.667
Well, perhaps it all began with me as a student

994
00:43:04.667 --> 00:43:09.067
so many decades ago, when we all dreamt of marching to South

995
00:43:09.067 --> 00:43:13.334
Africa and liberating the black people from the stranglehold of

996
00:43:13.334 --> 00:43:16.767
this minority apartheid regime.

997
00:43:16.767 --> 00:43:20.467
And one man came to symbolize, during that period, the whole

998
00:43:20.467 --> 00:43:24.534
meaning, the sense, the essence of our

999
00:43:24.534 --> 00:43:28.868
commitment, of our understanding.

1000
00:43:28.868 --> 00:43:32.501
And this is an individual who, having gone through enormous

1001
00:43:32.501 --> 00:43:36.667
privations, the deprivation of an entire -- his entire youth,

1002
00:43:36.667 --> 00:43:40.234
he was offered the possibility of a kind of limited and

1003
00:43:40.234 --> 00:43:43.334
conditional parole.

1004
00:43:43.334 --> 00:43:46.634
Now, how many of us would have said, yes, I

1005
00:43:46.634 --> 00:43:50.133
can negotiate afterwards?

1006
00:43:50.133 --> 00:43:52.968
Nearly all of us.

1007
00:43:52.968 --> 00:43:55.934
But he said, oh, no, there are some conditions to be met.

1008
00:43:55.934 --> 00:43:59.300
I know why I came here in the first place, and that goal has

1009
00:43:59.300 --> 00:44:03.100
not been achieved.

1010
00:44:03.100 --> 00:44:06.968
You cannot give me limited freedom.

1011
00:44:06.968 --> 00:44:10.868
And for those of us who always believed in freedom as the

1012
00:44:10.868 --> 00:44:15.234
essence of humanity, as the very meaning of human dignity, this

1013
00:44:15.234 --> 00:44:19.234
man articulated something which we all felt, towards which we

1014
00:44:19.234 --> 00:44:23.367
all struggled in our various minuscule ways.

1015
00:44:23.367 --> 00:44:27.234
And that is how the poem was born, that somebody at that

1016
00:44:27.234 --> 00:44:31.033
moment, after so many years, said no, I am willing to

1017
00:44:31.033 --> 00:44:34.200
continue to be a prisoner because when I go outside, I

1018
00:44:34.200 --> 00:44:36.934
will continue to be a prisoner under these conditions.

1019
00:44:36.934 --> 00:44:39.634
It is so profound, so total, so comprehensive of everything we

1020
00:44:39.634 --> 00:44:42.434
believed in.

1021
00:44:42.434 --> 00:44:44.868
So it gave rise to the poem.

1022
00:44:44.868 --> 00:44:47.434
You received the Nobel Prize for literature in

1023
00:44:47.434 --> 00:44:50.133
1986, I remember, correct?

1024
00:44:50.133 --> 00:44:52.734
Yes.

1025
00:44:52.734 --> 00:44:55.300
This poem, these poems, "Mandela's Earth and

1026
00:44:55.300 --> 00:44:57.501
Other Poems" came out in 1988, correct?

1027
00:44:57.501 --> 00:44:59.667
Yes, that's right.

1028
00:44:59.667 --> 00:45:01.534
Nelson Mandela was still in

1029
00:45:01.534 --> 00:45:03.801
prison at that time.

1030
00:45:03.801 --> 00:45:08.634
That's true. Yes.

1031
00:45:08.634 --> 00:45:11.834
And I remember when I was beginning to be a little bit

1032
00:45:11.834 --> 00:45:15.667
optimistic also.

1033
00:45:15.667 --> 00:45:19.667
And being optimistic meant that you moved away from the man as

1034
00:45:19.667 --> 00:45:23.534
symbol of a struggle to the man as a human being.

1035
00:45:23.534 --> 00:45:26.934
And I was asking, since such millions fastened on this one

1036
00:45:26.934 --> 00:45:31.067
individual as hope, as a symbol, as, in fact, essence of

1037
00:45:31.067 --> 00:45:35.701
their own existence, what would he be like when he actually

1038
00:45:35.701 --> 00:45:39.434
came out as a human being?

1039
00:45:39.434 --> 00:45:43.534
Could he ever recover himself as a person, as a human entity?

1040
00:45:43.534 --> 00:45:47.033
And so I moved away slightly from him as

1041
00:45:47.033 --> 00:45:50.901
a symbol of struggle.

1042
00:45:50.901 --> 00:45:54.701
For instance, I run into one of the officials of the ANC during

1043
00:45:54.701 --> 00:45:58.033
the divestment struggle.

1044
00:45:58.033 --> 00:46:01.534
I think this is in Ithaca.

1045
00:46:01.534 --> 00:46:04.968
And I said to her, I have written this poem, and I am

1046
00:46:04.968 --> 00:46:08.033
going to send it to him through you.

1047
00:46:08.033 --> 00:46:11.434
But I guarantee you that I shall read to him from this

1048
00:46:11.434 --> 00:46:14.901
volume within the next few years.

1049
00:46:14.901 --> 00:46:17.767
I said, I am absolutely confident of that.

1050
00:46:17.767 --> 00:46:20.400
So this volume is just for him to keep, but his real copy, I

1051
00:46:20.400 --> 00:46:22.934
am going to bring it personally and I will read it to him in

1052
00:46:22.934 --> 00:46:25.367
his living room.

1053
00:46:25.367 --> 00:46:27.434
When did you read it to him?

1054
00:46:27.434 --> 00:46:29.934
Oh, several years afterwards.

1055
00:46:29.934 --> 00:46:32.267
I just read one or two lines from memory.

1056
00:46:32.267 --> 00:46:34.300
I didn't have the book with me.

1057
00:46:34.300 --> 00:46:36.400
But you had the spirit of it?

1058
00:46:36.400 --> 00:46:42.467
Yes. Yes.

1059
00:46:42.467 --> 00:46:45.934
And that was a memorable experience for me.

1060
00:46:45.934 --> 00:46:49.801
How do you think prison shaped him?

1061
00:46:49.801 --> 00:46:53.634
Because to listen to you talk about how he came out, his

1062
00:46:53.634 --> 00:46:56.901
coming out of prison added to his nobility.

1063
00:46:56.901 --> 00:46:59.834
Well, one thing we must all remember, I mean

1064
00:46:59.834 --> 00:47:03.300
there is a little bit of mystique about his coming out,

1065
00:47:03.300 --> 00:47:06.801
not missing a beat.

1066
00:47:06.801 --> 00:47:10.934
Of course he didn't miss a beat.

1067
00:47:10.934 --> 00:47:14.300
But that is because he was always informed, even in

1068
00:47:14.300 --> 00:47:17.868
prison, in the Gulag of Robin Island.

1069
00:47:17.868 --> 00:47:21.701
He and his companions were in some kind of contact with their

1070
00:47:21.701 --> 00:47:25.467
comrades outside.

1071
00:47:25.467 --> 00:47:28.534
So even though Nelson Mandela, as you said, when he came out

1072
00:47:28.534 --> 00:47:31.801
didn't quite know what a fax machine was -- he was

1073
00:47:31.801 --> 00:47:34.501
bewildered that messages were being transmitted so fast.

1074
00:47:34.501 --> 00:47:37.000
Yes.

1075
00:47:37.000 --> 00:47:39.667
He did know what level, what state

1076
00:47:39.667 --> 00:47:42.667
the struggle was.

1077
00:47:42.667 --> 00:47:46.367
He knew of the internecine struggles.

1078
00:47:46.367 --> 00:47:50.567
He knew about the problems of the Zulu (INAUDIBLE).

1079
00:47:50.567 --> 00:47:54.000
He was up to date with all of that although, even though he

1080
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:57.801
didn't -- wasn't -- was like Rip Van Winkle in terms of modern

1081
00:47:57.801 --> 00:48:01.267
technology and the development of Internet and so on when he

1082
00:48:01.267 --> 00:48:04.267
came out.

1083
00:48:04.267 --> 00:48:07.067
But, no, what really mattered, the struggle, the world

1084
00:48:07.067 --> 00:48:09.434
situation, oh he was very much, you know --

1085
00:48:09.434 --> 00:48:12.701
Informed?

1086
00:48:12.701 --> 00:48:16.634
-- familiar with all of that, yes.

1087
00:48:16.634 --> 00:48:19.934
So he didn't miss a beat.

1088
00:48:19.934 --> 00:48:22.701
What did the over-throw of Apartheid and the

1089
00:48:22.701 --> 00:48:26.000
liberation of South Africa mean in the overall sort of long-term

1090
00:48:26.000 --> 00:48:28.767
evolution of Africa?

1091
00:48:28.767 --> 00:48:31.534
Yes.

1092
00:48:31.534 --> 00:48:34.334
In a sense, in a very symbolic way, which we must not

1093
00:48:34.334 --> 00:48:37.100
exaggerate, it meant for many of us the

1094
00:48:37.100 --> 00:48:39.868
liberation of the African

1095
00:48:39.868 --> 00:48:43.367
continent entirely.

1096
00:48:43.367 --> 00:48:48.033
Now, there were other liberation struggles going on, the anti-

1097
00:48:48.033 --> 00:48:52.501
Portuguese Angolan, Mozambique and Cape Verde

1098
00:48:52.501 --> 00:48:57.000
struggles going on.

1099
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:01.300
But it sort after gave not just a (INAUDIBLE), but a signal to

1100
00:49:01.300 --> 00:49:05.634
the remaining holdings of both colonial and neo-colonial

1101
00:49:05.634 --> 00:49:09.234
stranglehold on the African continent.

1102
00:49:09.234 --> 00:49:12.701
But additionally, additionally, let's never forget that the

1103
00:49:12.701 --> 00:49:15.734
struggle for liberation of the African continent has not -- is

1104
00:49:15.734 --> 00:49:18.634
not over yet.

1105
00:49:18.634 --> 00:49:21.601
You still have what we like to describe, for instance, as

1106
00:49:21.601 --> 00:49:24.534
internal colonialism.

1107
00:49:24.534 --> 00:49:27.467
Zimbabwe is one example.

1108
00:49:27.467 --> 00:49:30.400
Those front line leaders who felt that they were also --

1109
00:49:30.400 --> 00:49:33.334
they were meant to be first line beneficiaries of

1110
00:49:33.334 --> 00:49:36.267
the struggle of

1111
00:49:36.267 --> 00:49:40.667
the totality of the African people, as well.

1112
00:49:40.667 --> 00:49:44.767
Mandela, because -- not just because of the struggle, the

1113
00:49:44.767 --> 00:49:48.100
Apartheid struggle, but because of his conduct, even after the

1114
00:49:48.100 --> 00:49:51.868
independence of South Africa, became a lesson, a kind of

1115
00:49:51.868 --> 00:49:55.667
beacon for the internal struggle for the liberation of the

1116
00:49:55.667 --> 00:49:59.567
African peoples.

1117
00:49:59.567 --> 00:50:04.634
And his position in relation to all of these petty dictators,

1118
00:50:04.634 --> 00:50:10.000
who are no better than the former colonial masters or the

1119
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:15.167
military rulers, his conduct, his very principled proved that

1120
00:50:15.167 --> 00:50:20.367
you can lead a struggle, you can sacrifice an entire, you

1121
00:50:20.367 --> 00:50:25.467
know, generation of span of the existence, and yet continue to

1122
00:50:25.467 --> 00:50:29.601
behave as just one of the totality of a people.

1123
00:50:29.601 --> 00:50:32.934
So he is a constant rebuke to characters like Mugabe, for

1124
00:50:32.934 --> 00:50:36.901
instance, or all these other sit tight, so called Democrats

1125
00:50:36.901 --> 00:50:40.734
of the African continent.

1126
00:50:40.734 --> 00:50:44.667
He continues.

1127
00:50:44.667 --> 00:50:47.901
He continues just to be the exemplar for the liberation of

1128
00:50:47.901 --> 00:50:51.000
humanity, not just of African humanity, but giving true

1129
00:50:51.000 --> 00:50:54.234
meaning to the word liberation, in the most profound sense of

1130
00:50:54.234 --> 00:50:56.868
the word.

1131
00:50:56.868 --> 00:50:59.734
Was he a Democrat in lower D?

1132
00:50:59.734 --> 00:51:03.167
I beg your pardon.

1133
00:51:03.167 --> 00:51:06.200
Could you say that again?

1134
00:51:06.200 --> 00:51:08.901
Was he a Democrat, not Democrat in terms

1135
00:51:08.901 --> 00:51:11.534
of the party as known in the United States, but was Nelson

1136
00:51:11.534 --> 00:51:14.968
Mandela a Democrat?

1137
00:51:14.968 --> 00:51:19.367
Yes.

1138
00:51:19.367 --> 00:51:23.968
He is a compulsive Democrat.

1139
00:51:23.968 --> 00:51:27.667
In fact, if you look at th whole internal history of the

1140
00:51:27.667 --> 00:51:31.601
DNC, you will see that Nelson Mandela sometimes even, shall

1141
00:51:31.601 --> 00:51:36.000
we say, went over board for the preservation of the principle

1142
00:51:36.000 --> 00:51:40.234
of democracy.

1143
00:51:40.234 --> 00:51:44.701
And I am speaking of someone who has rather close and intimate

1144
00:51:44.701 --> 00:51:49.167
relations with members of the ANC, and I learn about the

1145
00:51:49.167 --> 00:51:54.000
debates and internal decisions and so on.

1146
00:51:54.000 --> 00:51:58.834
And whenever the chips were down, Nelson Mandela always

1147
00:51:58.834 --> 00:52:04.000
tried to solve situations by the Democratic principle.

1148
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:08.667
I know of only one exception of an important nature, and that is

1149
00:52:08.667 --> 00:52:13.067
when he took the private decision over what appeared to

1150
00:52:13.067 --> 00:52:17.234
be the consensus of the ANC to meet, because he realized that

1151
00:52:17.234 --> 00:52:21.067
this was now critical to the future of South Africa.

1152
00:52:21.067 --> 00:52:25.033
And despite opposition within the ranks of the ANC, he took

1153
00:52:25.033 --> 00:52:28.234
that decision to meet with the liaison privately.

1154
00:52:28.234 --> 00:52:31.400
That is the only exception I know of.

1155
00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:34.901
So he was a really deep dyed, convinced, you

1156
00:52:34.901 --> 00:52:38.000
know, idealized Democrat.

1157
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:40.834
It is my pleasure to have you on this program.

1158
00:52:40.834 --> 00:52:43.400
I thank you for taking time to do this.

1159
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:45.801
And you are welcome any time.

1160
00:52:45.801 --> 00:52:48.234
It is my great pleasure to be speaking to you

1161
00:52:48.234 --> 
about Nelson Mandela, any time.