WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.701 Stay with us. 2 00:00:00.701 --> 00:00:01.734 Ed Koch served three terms as mayor of New York 3 00:00:01.734 --> 00:00:04.167 City from 1978 to 1989. 4 00:00:04.167 --> 00:00:06.734 Since leaving office, he's been a columnist for both the New 5 00:00:06.734 --> 00:00:08.734 York Daily News and the New York Post. 6 00:00:08.734 --> 00:00:11.701 He hosts his own radio talk show and until recently presided over 7 00:00:11.701 --> 00:00:14.234 The People's Court on daytime television. 8 00:00:14.234 --> 00:00:16.467 He is the author of numerous books, both fiction and 9 00:00:16.467 --> 00:00:17.467 non-fiction. 10 00:00:17.467 --> 00:00:20.133 His latest is titled Giuliani, Nasty Man. 11 00:00:20.133 --> 00:00:22.534 I am pleased to have him back on this program. 12 00:00:22.534 --> 00:00:24.534 You know that they're saying about this. 13 00:00:24.534 --> 00:00:25.734 What? 14 00:00:25.734 --> 00:00:27.734 Here's what they're saying. 15 00:00:27.734 --> 00:00:29.734 They're saying it's a cheap shot -- some. 16 00:00:29.734 --> 00:00:30.734 Some, some -- cheap shot. 17 00:00:30.734 --> 00:00:33.367 And that this is an example of a former mayor-- 18 00:00:33.367 --> 00:00:34.367 Yeah. 19 00:00:34.367 --> 00:00:36.367 --having at his successor even though he 20 00:00:36.367 --> 00:00:38.000 supported him in the past. 21 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.000 Well, let me put you right on this. 22 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.000 OK. 23 00:00:41.000 --> 00:00:43.000 Firstly-- 24 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:44.000 Do you have to put it that way? 25 00:00:44.000 --> 00:00:46.033 I began this book long before he announced that he 26 00:00:46.033 --> 00:00:48.567 was considering running for the Senate. 27 00:00:48.567 --> 00:00:50.734 I didn't say you were trying to stop his Senate 28 00:00:50.734 --> 00:00:51.734 campaign. 29 00:00:51.734 --> 00:00:53.734 No, I understand. 30 00:00:53.734 --> 00:00:54.868 But it's all part of the same thing. 31 00:00:54.868 --> 00:00:58.467 And what is interesting is that I did not break with the mayor 32 00:00:58.467 --> 00:01:00.467 until two years into his administration. 33 00:01:00.467 --> 00:01:04.200 The forward, which I wrote for the book -- it's about 5,000 34 00:01:04.200 --> 00:01:06.400 words -- puts it all in context. 35 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:11.000 And, when I supported him he acknowledged he couldn't have 36 00:01:11.000 --> 00:01:15.100 won if I -- along with three other people -- hadn't helped 37 00:01:15.100 --> 00:01:17.100 him. 38 00:01:17.100 --> 00:01:19.100 After all, I was crossing party lines. 39 00:01:19.100 --> 00:01:27.667 I was supporting a Republican. 40 00:01:27.667 --> 00:01:31.167 I was the one who was out in the streets doing that for him 41 00:01:31.167 --> 00:01:32.167 and with him. 42 00:01:32.167 --> 00:01:34.434 I was in the front row when he was inaugurated. 43 00:01:34.434 --> 00:01:38.601 It was the mayor, his son and Mrs. Giuliani-- Ms. Hanover and 44 00:01:38.601 --> 00:01:39.601 myself. 45 00:01:39.601 --> 00:01:41.601 Now, why did I break with him? 46 00:01:41.601 --> 00:01:44.767 I broke with him on something that's exceedingly important. 47 00:01:44.767 --> 00:01:47.300 He gutted the merit-judicial selection system. 48 00:01:47.300 --> 00:01:49.767 And he did it two years into his administration. 49 00:01:49.767 --> 00:01:51.767 Now, why does it become important? 50 00:01:51.767 --> 00:01:56.234 Basically, without boring your viewers, what I assured judges 51 00:01:56.234 --> 00:02:01.167 was that, if what they did satisfied the committees that 52 00:02:01.167 --> 00:02:06.334 reviewed their redesignation to office, they didn't have to 53 00:02:06.334 --> 00:02:09.901 worry whether they pleased the mayor or anybody else. 54 00:02:09.901 --> 00:02:13.467 If, on looking at their whole career, the committee 55 00:02:13.467 --> 00:02:17.033 recommending to the mayor said, ``Reappoint them,'' or ``Don't 56 00:02:17.033 --> 00:02:21.400 reappoint them.'' And I said that I would do what the 57 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.167 committee said without reservation of any kind. 58 00:02:24.167 --> 00:02:26.067 And I did. 59 00:02:26.067 --> 00:02:28.868 Now, I'll tell why it becomes important. 60 00:02:28.868 --> 00:02:32.834 The mayor decided, no, he would not reappoint judges necessarily 61 00:02:32.834 --> 00:02:37.200 and didn't in some cases where the committee said he should. 62 00:02:37.200 --> 00:02:41.567 And he reappointed at least one where the committee said he 63 00:02:41.567 --> 00:02:43.567 shouldn't. 64 00:02:43.567 --> 00:02:46.868 The current imbroglio involving the Brooklyn Museum, where it is 65 00:02:46.868 --> 00:02:48.300 now before a federal judge. 66 00:02:48.300 --> 00:02:50.300 Now, federal judges are there for life. 67 00:02:50.300 --> 00:02:52.300 And they don't have to worry about being reappointed by 68 00:02:52.300 --> 00:02:54.300 anybody, including the president. 69 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:58.133 And that was done so as to give them the opportunity to be 70 00:02:58.133 --> 00:02:59.133 independent. 71 00:02:59.133 --> 00:03:01.133 Immunity from political pressure. 72 00:03:01.133 --> 00:03:02.167 Right. 73 00:03:02.167 --> 00:03:05.133 I read the other day that the judge who is hearing this case-- 74 00:03:05.133 --> 00:03:09.234 her husband is an acting Supreme Court judge. 75 00:03:09.234 --> 00:03:12.133 Now, ``acting'' means that he's not really a Supreme Court 76 00:03:12.133 --> 00:03:13.133 judge. 77 00:03:13.133 --> 00:03:15.968 He is a Criminal Court judge or a Family Court judge who is 78 00:03:15.968 --> 00:03:17.400 sitting in the Supreme Court. 79 00:03:17.400 --> 00:03:19.868 And the Criminal Court and Family Court judges are 80 00:03:19.868 --> 00:03:20.934 appointed by the mayor. 81 00:03:20.934 --> 00:03:25.000 Now, with this mayor and this mayor being the center of 82 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.968 attention in that lawsuit, if that case were being heard not 83 00:03:28.968 --> 00:03:33.501 by the federal judge, but by her husband, would I worry whether 84 00:03:33.501 --> 00:03:37.834 or not that judge might say to himself, ``Gee, I'm coming up 85 00:03:37.834 --> 00:03:39.434 for redesignation. 86 00:03:39.434 --> 00:03:40.434 I know the only one I have to--'' 87 00:03:40.434 --> 00:03:43.234 Satisfy. 88 00:03:43.234 --> 00:03:45.501 ``--assure and satisfy is Mayor Giuliani. 89 00:03:45.501 --> 00:03:49.367 And I know how he gets angry when he's not satisfied.'' You 90 00:03:49.367 --> 00:03:51.367 think the people should rest easy? 91 00:03:51.367 --> 00:03:53.367 And that is why I broke with him. 92 00:03:53.367 --> 00:03:55.868 OK, but that's a political difference. 93 00:03:55.868 --> No, it's-- 94 00:03:55.868 --> 00:03:56.868 It's what? 95 00:03:56.868 --> 00:03:57.868 Well, it is a political difference-- 96 00:03:57.868 --> 00:03:58.868 It's a political difference. 97 00:03:58.868 --> 00:04:00.868 But it's extraordinary-- 98 00:04:00.868 --> You-- 99 00:04:00.868 --> 00:04:01.534 That's like saying, ``Having a democracy as 100 00:04:01.534 --> 00:04:03.534 opposed to despotism is a political difference.'' 101 00:04:03.534 --> 00:04:05.534 Well, it wasn't because the mayor stole 102 00:04:05.534 --> 00:04:06.534 something. 103 00:04:06.534 --> 00:04:08.534 It wasn't because the mayor was drunk. 104 00:04:08.534 --> 00:04:10.534 It wasn't because the mayor had a bad character. 105 00:04:10.534 --> 00:04:11.534 No. 106 00:04:11.534 --> 00:04:13.567 It was because of a political issue. 107 00:04:13.567 --> 00:04:15.567 No, but-- 108 00:04:15.567 --> You see the appointment 109 00:04:15.567 --> 00:04:17.567 of judges different than he does. 110 00:04:17.567 --> 00:04:19.567 Oh, well, no, no, no. 111 00:04:19.567 --> 00:04:22.300 Let me just say this-- He didn't see it differently when he was-- 112 00:04:22.300 --> 00:04:23.300 Campaigning. 113 00:04:23.300 --> 00:04:24.300 --elected. 114 00:04:24.300 --> 00:04:26.300 Right, well, he changed his mind. 115 00:04:26.300 --> 00:04:27.300 Come on. 116 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:29.300 Well, you bet he did. 117 00:04:29.300 --> 00:04:31.300 It's still politics. 118 00:04:31.300 --> 00:04:33.300 Charlie, I believe that-- 119 00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:34.300 ``Charlie,'' what? 120 00:04:34.300 --> 00:04:36.300 That public office is the noblest of 121 00:04:36.300 --> 00:04:37.300 professions. 122 00:04:37.300 --> 00:04:38.300 So do I. 123 00:04:38.300 --> 00:04:40.300 If it's done honestly and done well. 124 00:04:40.300 --> 00:04:42.267 The mayor is a good mayor in delivering services. 125 00:04:42.267 --> 00:04:44.267 He's a terrific police commissioner. 126 00:04:44.267 --> 00:04:46.267 The next mayor ought to consider making him the police 127 00:04:46.267 --> 00:04:47.300 commissioner. 128 00:04:47.300 --> 00:04:49.300 Oh, here you go. 129 00:04:49.300 --> 00:04:51.300 If he's lookin' for a job. 130 00:04:51.300 --> 00:04:53.300 But the mayor has to be more than a police commissioner. 131 00:04:53.300 --> 00:04:54.300 I will tell you. 132 00:04:54.300 --> 00:04:56.767 It has to shock the mayor that, when he goes to the opera -- and 133 00:04:56.767 --> 00:04:58.767 he's also an opera fan and deserves the applause that he 134 00:04:58.767 --> 00:05:00.767 always gets when he goes to Lincoln Center -- when he was 135 00:05:00.767 --> 00:05:02.767 recently in Lincoln Center, the audience, which normally 136 00:05:02.767 --> 00:05:03.767 applauds him, booed him. 137 00:05:03.767 --> 00:05:04.767 That was in the Times. 138 00:05:04.767 --> 00:05:06.767 Why do you think that was? 139 00:05:06.767 --> 00:05:08.767 Well, because-- 140 00:05:08.767 --> 00:05:09.767 Because there are culture-lovers there. 141 00:05:09.767 --> 00:05:10.767 And they're not happy-- 142 00:05:10.767 --> 00:05:11.767 I want to tell you why. I know exactly why. 143 00:05:11.767 --> 00:05:13.734 --with the Brooklyn Museum. 144 00:05:13.734 --> 00:05:14.734 I know exactly why. 145 00:05:14.734 --> 00:05:15.734 You see, the mayor's greatest support comes from the upper 146 00:05:15.734 --> 00:05:16.767 middle class and the wealthy -- or ``richies'' as I like to call 147 00:05:16.767 --> 00:05:17.767 'em -- of which I'm one, by the way. 148 00:05:17.767 --> 00:05:18.434 OK. 149 00:05:18.434 --> 00:05:21.434 Life's been good to Ed. 150 00:05:21.434 --> 00:05:24.434 Right, since leaving office. 151 00:05:24.434 --> 00:05:26.434 Yeah, exactly. 152 00:05:26.434 --> 00:05:28.434 Now, those people support the mayor without 153 00:05:28.434 --> 00:05:30.434 question. Why? 154 00:05:30.434 --> 00:05:32.434 'Cause they don't depend on other services. 155 00:05:32.434 --> 00:05:34.434 They don't go down to City Hall to want to demonstrate and be 156 00:05:34.434 --> 00:05:36.434 turned away from the steps of City Hall, which used to be our 157 00:05:36.434 --> 00:05:38.434 Hyde Park, where people could do that freely. 158 00:05:38.434 --> 00:05:40.434 So, so long as the mayor delivered police and reduced 159 00:05:40.434 --> 00:05:45.234 crime and fire services and sanitation, that's all they 160 00:05:45.234 --> 00:05:47.234 cared about. 161 00:05:47.234 --> 00:05:49.234 But I-- 162 00:05:49.234 --> 00:05:51.968 But now they see he's a threat to civil liberties. 163 00:05:51.968 --> 00:05:53.968 Did you have to say, Nasty Man? 164 00:05:53.968 --> 00:05:55.968 I thought it was a terrific title. 165 00:05:55.968 --> 00:05:58.000 And I thought of it. 166 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:00.267 And I will tell you why. 167 00:06:00.267 --> 00:06:05.634 Nasty Man means mean-spirited, and he is very mean-spirited. 168 00:06:05.634 --> 00:06:08.234 There is no question about it. 169 00:06:08.234 --> 00:06:10.234 Well, then why did you support him in the first 170 00:06:10.234 --> 00:06:12.234 place? 171 00:06:12.234 --> 00:06:14.234 Because I thought that David Dinkins was such a 172 00:06:14.234 --> 00:06:16.234 terrible mayor that he didn't deserve a second term. 173 00:06:16.234 --> 00:06:18.634 So, you'll take mean-spirited over what? 174 00:06:18.634 --> 00:06:20.634 Well, I will-- First of all, I didn't know he 175 00:06:20.634 --> 00:06:21.634 was mean-spirited. 176 00:06:21.634 --> 00:06:22.634 I had a suspicion. 177 00:06:22.634 --> 00:06:23.634 Come on. 178 00:06:23.634 --> 00:06:25.634 But I didn't know. 179 00:06:25.634 --> 00:06:27.634 No, no, no. Listen. 180 00:06:27.634 --> 00:06:29.634 When I asked him about the two things that really bothered me-- 181 00:06:29.634 --> 00:06:31.901 One was his putting three stock brokers into handcuffs. 182 00:06:31.901 --> 00:06:32.901 Yeah, right. 183 00:06:32.901 --> 00:06:34.901 He denied that he was responsible. 184 00:06:34.901 --> 00:06:35.901 To me, too. 185 00:06:35.901 --> 00:06:37.901 I don't believe him anymore. 186 00:06:37.901 --> 00:06:39.901 I wanted to believe him then because I didn't want to support 187 00:06:39.901 --> 00:06:40.901 David Dinkins for reelection. 188 00:06:40.901 --> 00:06:42.901 He said it was the marshals did that. 189 00:06:42.901 --> 00:06:44.901 Yeah, that's what he said. 190 00:06:44.901 --> 00:06:46.367 I don't believe him anymore. 191 00:06:46.367 --> 00:06:48.601 And secondly, when he allowed Sucrete Gable to tape her mother 192 00:06:48.601 --> 00:06:51.033 for criminal prosecution and he said, ``Oh, I had nothing to do 193 00:06:51.033 --> 00:06:52.033 with that. 194 00:06:52.033 --> 00:06:54.601 She did it on her own, and it was a mistake on her part, not 195 00:06:54.601 --> 00:06:56.868 on my part.'' I don't believe him anymore on that either. 196 00:06:56.868 --> 00:06:59.701 But the fact is that he's ruined his place in history. 197 00:06:59.701 --> I see now-- 198 00:06:59.701 --> 00:07:01.701 What? 199 00:07:01.701 --> 00:07:03.667 I will tell why-- 200 00:07:03.667 --> 00:07:04.667 How can you say that? 201 00:07:04.667 --> 00:07:06.667 Oh, I can easily. 202 00:07:06.667 --> 00:07:07.667 I will tell you why. 203 00:07:07.667 --> 00:07:09.667 He's ruined his place in history? 204 00:07:09.667 --> 00:07:10.667 Yes, he has. 205 00:07:10.667 --> 00:07:12.667 As mayor of New York? 206 00:07:12.667 --> 00:07:13.667 Yes, he has. 207 00:07:13.667 --> 00:07:15.701 Because-- Listen -- more people think that 208 00:07:15.701 --> this mayor-- 209 00:07:15.701 --> 00:07:17.701 Yeah. 210 00:07:17.701 --> 00:07:19.701 --did more to affect the quality of life in 211 00:07:19.701 --> 00:07:21.701 New York than this [point to Koch] mayor. 212 00:07:21.701 --> 00:07:23.701 Let me say this to you. 213 00:07:23.701 --> 00:07:25.701 Am I right or not? 214 00:07:25.701 --> 00:07:27.701 Let me rest on what he said. 215 00:07:27.701 --> 00:07:29.334 He said the two greatest mayors of the city of New York, were 216 00:07:29.334 --> 00:07:30.334 LaGuardia and Koch. 217 00:07:30.334 --> 00:07:31.334 Right. 218 00:07:31.334 --> 00:07:33.334 And he said that up at Harvard. 219 00:07:33.334 --> 00:07:34.334 Right. 220 00:07:34.334 --> 00:07:36.300 I rest my case on that, and I will leave to 221 00:07:36.300 --> 00:07:38.300 history to determine whether his judgment on that issue was 222 00:07:38.300 --> 00:07:39.300 correct. 223 00:07:39.300 --> 00:07:41.300 But I'll bet you, if you could ask him now, 224 00:07:41.300 --> 00:07:43.300 if he was sitting here and I said, ``Do you think the two 225 00:07:43.300 --> 00:07:45.300 greatest mayors in the history of New York, including yourself, 226 00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:46.300 are Koch and LaGuardia?'' 227 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:48.300 he would have a different judgment. 228 00:07:48.300 --> 00:07:49.300 No, I think-- 229 00:07:49.300 --> 00:07:51.300 He would say-- 230 00:07:51.300 --> 00:07:53.300 I think he'd-- 231 00:07:53.300 --> 00:07:54.300 He'd say, ``LaGuardia and Giuliani.'' 232 00:07:54.300 --> 00:07:56.300 No, I think he 233 00:07:56.300 --> 00:07:58.300 would say, if he had any brains -- and he has a lot of brains -- 234 00:07:58.300 --> 00:08:00.334 he would say, ``I never talk about my place in history 'cause 235 00:08:00.334 --> 00:08:02.334 that has to be decided by history itself.'' 236 00:08:02.334 --> 00:08:03.334 OK. 237 00:08:03.334 --> 00:08:04.334 I gotta get outta here. 238 00:08:04.334 --> 00:08:06.334 Let me ask you this-- You believe he has damaged himself-- 239 00:08:06.334 --> 00:08:07.334 Oh, yeah. 240 00:08:07.334 --> 00:08:08.567 --politically? 241 00:08:08.567 --> 00:08:10.567 Yeah. 242 00:08:10.567 --> 00:08:13.534 Very much like McCarthy in the McCarthy-Army hearings where he 243 00:08:13.534 --> 00:08:15.534 was riding high 'cause he was takin' on the commies and we all 244 00:08:15.534 --> 00:08:17.534 knew the commies were bad -- and they were -- and then a 245 00:08:17.534 --> 00:08:19.534 brilliant lawyer, unassuming in attitude, said, ``Sir, have you 246 00:08:19.534 --> 00:08:21.567 no sense of decency?'' 247 00:08:21.567 --> 00:08:24.234 That was Joe Welch, and from that point on-- 248 00:08:24.234 --> 00:08:25.801 It was Joe Welch. 249 00:08:25.801 --> 00:08:27.801 --it was downhill for him. 250 00:08:27.801 --> 00:08:30.000 And I believe that the lack of applause-- 251 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:31.000 I haven't seen that-- I haven't seen that 252 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.868 moment happen. 253 00:08:33.868 --> 00:08:36.234 The lack of applause and booing at the opera 254 00:08:36.234 --> 00:08:38.868 house for Giuliani is that particular moment now. 255 00:08:38.868 --> 00:08:41.501 How many people were at the opera house? 256 00:08:41.501 --> 00:08:43.501 Well, they always get a full house. 257 00:08:43.501 --> 00:08:46.200 Those richies seem to have a lot of money. 258 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.200 Yes, that they do. 259 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:51.367 Is it possible that, as it was for Ed Koch, as it was for John 260 00:08:51.367 --> 00:08:56.234 Lindsey, that being mayor is the end of a political career, not a 261 00:08:56.234 --> 00:08:58.234 stepping-stone to something else? 262 00:08:58.234 --> 00:09:01.234 It's the greatest career to ever have had. 263 00:09:01.234 --> 00:09:03.234 I'm with you because this is the greatest 264 00:09:03.234 --> city in the-- 265 00:09:03.234 --> 00:09:05.234 I've never understood when 266 00:09:05.234 --> 00:09:07.234 somebody said, ``Oh, gee, it's your end.'' 267 00:09:07.234 --> 00:09:09.234 Well, why did you-- 268 00:09:09.234 --> 00:09:10.234 I tried to run for a fourth term. 269 00:09:10.234 --> 00:09:11.234 The people threw me out. 270 00:09:11.234 --> 00:09:13.200 And, when they wanted me to come back, I said, ``No, you threw 271 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:14.200 me out. 272 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:16.200 And now you have to be punished.'' 273 00:09:16.200 --> 00:09:18.234 I don't-- I don't remember this 274 00:09:18.234 --> 00:09:19.234 groundswell for you to come back. 275 00:09:19.234 --> 00:09:20.234 Oh, yes. 276 00:09:20.234 --> 00:09:22.234 And I will tell you when it happened. 277 00:09:22.234 --> 00:09:24.234 In '93, when they had to-- people had to choose between 278 00:09:24.234 --> 00:09:26.234 David Dinkins and Giuliani, they didn't want that choice. 279 00:09:26.234 --> 00:09:28.234 They knew that both were not the-- 280 00:09:28.234 --> 00:09:29.868 They would rather have had you? 281 00:09:29.868 --> 00:09:32.601 Well, as I walked around the streets, 10, 15 times 282 00:09:32.601 --> 00:09:33.400 a day people would say to me, ``Oh, mayor, you must run again. 283 00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:36.434 You must run again.'' And I would say, ``No, the people 284 00:09:36.434 --> 00:09:38.434 threw me out. 285 00:09:38.434 --> 00:09:41.267 And now the people must be punished.'' And we would laugh. 286 00:09:41.267 --> 00:09:42.901 It was said half-jocularly. 287 00:09:42.901 --> 00:09:44.901 You were half-serious. 288 00:09:44.901 --> 00:09:45.901 Half-serious. 289 00:09:45.901 --> 00:09:46.901 All right. 290 00:09:46.901 --> 00:09:48.901 Giuliani, Nasty Man, by Edward I. 291 00:09:48.901 --> 00:09:50.901 Koch, successful after he was mayor in a whole series of 292 00:09:50.901 --> 00:09:55.234 things, as a radio person, as a television person, as a writer, 293 00:09:55.234 --> 00:09:57.234 and I think he practices a little bit of law. 294 00:09:57.234 --> 00:09:58.968 Thank you, sir. 295 00:09:58.968 --> 00:10:00.000 Thank you. 296 00:10:00.000 --> It was fun. 297 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:01.000 Thank you for joining us. 298 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:01.601 See you next time.