WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.234 --> 00:00:01.801 Good evening, I'm Dan Senor 2 00:00:01.801 --> 00:00:03.634 filling in for Charlie Rose. 3 00:00:03.634 --> 00:00:06.567 Last Thursday, Middlebury College experienced a scene 4 00:00:06.567 --> 00:00:09.334 that's becoming increasingly familiar. 5 00:00:09.334 --> 00:00:12.000 Dr. Charles Murray, a scholar at the American Enterprise 6 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:13.934 Institute, was invited to speak. 7 00:00:13.934 --> 00:00:16.634 A massive protest greeted him. 8 00:00:16.634 --> 00:00:19.300 The intent was not to simply express peaceful dissent, 9 00:00:19.300 --> 00:00:21.634 but to shut down his speech. 10 00:00:21.634 --> 00:00:24.334 Dr. Murray and the Middlebury professor who interviewed him 11 00:00:24.334 --> 00:00:27.601 ran into a mob of protestors, several of whom physically 12 00:00:27.601 --> 00:00:29.868 assaulted Dr. Murray's interviewer 13 00:00:29.868 --> 00:00:31.934 and forced her to the hospital. 14 00:00:31.934 --> 00:00:34.868 The incident and others like it bring into sharp relief 15 00:00:34.868 --> 00:00:38.534 a growing tendency on American campuses, an intolerance for 16 00:00:38.534 --> 00:00:40.334 freedom of speech and a challenge to 17 00:00:40.334 --> 00:00:42.167 intellectual diversity. 18 00:00:42.167 --> 00:00:46.100 Joining me now to discuss this trend are Frank Bruni, an op-ed 19 00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:48.400 columnist for "The New York Times", he writes frequently 20 00:00:48.400 --> 00:00:51.100 about higher education, and Frank is the author of a recent 21 00:00:51.100 --> 00:00:54.701 bestseller about the college admissions mania. 22 00:00:54.701 --> 00:00:58.133 "Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be" is the title of the book. 23 00:00:58.133 --> 00:01:01.667 And Jonathan Haidt who is a professor at NYU's Stern School 24 00:01:01.667 --> 00:01:04.434 of Business is the author of "The New York Times" 25 00:01:04.434 --> 00:01:07.367 bestselling book "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People 26 00:01:07.367 --> 00:01:09.968 Are Divided by Politics and Religion." 27 00:01:09.968 --> 00:01:12.934 He is also founder of a new organization dedicated to 28 00:01:12.934 --> 00:01:16.100 countering what he calls illiberalism on campus 29 00:01:16.100 --> 00:01:18.000 called the "Heterodox Academy." 30 00:01:18.000 --> 00:01:19.200 Welcome to you both. 31 00:01:19.200 --> 00:01:21.501 I want to start with you, Frank, there is a lot to cover 32 00:01:21.501 --> 00:01:22.868 in this discussion. 33 00:01:22.868 --> 00:01:25.367 First of all, how did we get here? 34 00:01:25.367 --> 00:01:27.868 This incident with Dr. Murray at Middlebury was not 35 00:01:27.868 --> 00:01:29.200 the first time this has happened. 36 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:31.133 We're seeing this all over the place. 37 00:01:31.133 --> 00:01:33.567 This didn't exist when you and I were going to college. 38 00:01:33.567 --> 00:01:34.100 No. 39 00:01:34.100 --> 00:01:35.434 What has happened? 40 00:01:35.434 --> 00:01:37.868 Well, luckily, we're not seeing the kind of 41 00:01:37.868 --> 00:01:40.400 violence at Middlebury or UC Berkeley everywhere, but we are 42 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:43.167 seeing this desire to shut down speakers who are unwanted. 43 00:01:43.167 --> 00:01:45.968 I think there are three things come to mind above all others. 44 00:01:45.968 --> 00:01:49.300 One is we are living in an era when you step away from campus 45 00:01:49.300 --> 00:01:53.534 of increasingly partisan, polarized, vitriolic debate. 46 00:01:53.534 --> 00:01:56.033 So why wouldn't we see a heightened version of that 47 00:01:56.033 --> 00:01:59.267 on campuses among kids who are at the most passionate 48 00:01:59.267 --> 00:02:00.534 phase of life? 49 00:02:00.534 --> 00:02:03.434 I think it is also important to note that this is the generation 50 00:02:03.434 --> 00:02:05.534 that everybody gets a trophy generation, right? 51 00:02:05.534 --> 00:02:08.868 So, no one modulates themselves or thinks I should kind of 52 00:02:08.868 --> 00:02:12.300 retire in the public space, let other people have their say 53 00:02:12.300 --> 00:02:16.367 because everybody is, it's very individualist sentiment 54 00:02:16.367 --> 00:02:17.000 like that. 55 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:20.033 And then lastly, and Jonathan, I think can speak to this much 56 00:02:20.033 --> 00:02:22.868 better than I can, there is not a lot of ideological diversity 57 00:02:22.868 --> 00:02:24.734 on a lot of the campuses where this is happening. 58 00:02:24.734 --> 00:02:28.334 And so the notion that somebody with a perspective totally 59 00:02:28.334 --> 00:02:32.234 contrary to your own, deserves the stage, deserves to be heard, 60 00:02:32.234 --> 00:02:35.167 that's sort of going away because there's so little 61 00:02:35.167 --> 00:02:37.534 diversity and there's so little appreciation for that 62 00:02:37.534 --> 00:02:39.701 in a really important ethos of education 63 00:02:39.701 --> 00:02:40.801 and of civil debate. 64 00:02:40.801 --> 00:02:43.200 So Jonathan, how widespread is this? 65 00:02:43.200 --> 00:02:44.434 Give us some perspective here. 66 00:02:44.434 --> 00:02:47.234 How big a problem is this? 67 00:02:47.234 --> 00:02:49.567 First, we need to put some parentheses 68 00:02:49.567 --> 00:02:52.667 around this because it's not happening on most campuses. 69 00:02:52.667 --> 00:02:55.701 Most campuses are not four-year residential schools. 70 00:02:55.701 --> 00:02:59.701 This kind of new moral worldview, of real moral passion 71 00:02:59.701 --> 00:03:02.534 only develops when you have a group of young people 72 00:03:02.534 --> 00:03:04.100 living together for four years. 73 00:03:04.100 --> 00:03:05.701 People are going home to a family or job, 74 00:03:05.701 --> 00:03:07.601 you don't get this. 75 00:03:07.601 --> 00:03:10.601 Secondly, it's not most students at just about any school, 76 00:03:10.601 --> 00:03:14.868 it's in the -- in the humanities especially. 77 00:03:14.868 --> 00:03:17.100 In the sciences, you don't see much sign of it. 78 00:03:17.100 --> 00:03:21.167 And even humanities, it may not be most students. 79 00:03:21.167 --> 00:03:22.267 I don't think it is. 80 00:03:22.267 --> 00:03:25.567 What you have to understand is that in any campus, there's 81 00:03:25.567 --> 00:03:27.200 a really interesting social environment where there are 82 00:03:27.200 --> 00:03:29.167 multiple moralities, multiple communities competing 83 00:03:29.167 --> 00:03:31.367 with each other and drawing recruits. 84 00:03:31.367 --> 00:03:33.434 And what we are seeing in the last few years, I think Frank's 85 00:03:33.434 --> 00:03:35.501 list is very, very good, what we are seeing in the last 86 00:03:35.501 --> 00:03:40.400 few years is the rise of a particular subgroup that is 87 00:03:40.400 --> 00:03:42.934 extremely passionate morally about equality, about fighting 88 00:03:42.934 --> 00:03:44.234 racism, and that is all great. 89 00:03:44.234 --> 00:03:47.534 But they've adopted a way that is kind of vindictive, 90 00:03:47.534 --> 00:03:49.400 that is all about calling people out. 91 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:50.901 So people are afraid of them. 92 00:03:50.901 --> 00:03:53.467 It's not just the students, but actually the professors too. 93 00:03:53.467 --> 00:03:56.667 So even if it's only five or ten percent on any campus, 94 00:03:56.667 --> 00:03:59.234 the fact that they can file charges against a professor -- 95 00:03:59.234 --> 00:04:00.000 Wow. 96 00:04:00.000 --> 00:04:02.400 At NYU, we have a new bias response team. 97 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.133 So, any video I show, anything I say in class, if it offends 98 00:04:05.133 --> 00:04:07.901 a student, there are numbers all over, in every bathroom, 99 00:04:07.901 --> 00:04:09.367 urging them to call, report me. 100 00:04:09.367 --> 00:04:11.133 So that changes the way we teach. 101 00:04:11.133 --> 00:04:13.400 And then as Frank said, if students aren't exposed to 102 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:16.334 diverse ideas, then if somebody like Charles Murray comes, 103 00:04:16.334 --> 00:04:18.367 well, you know, he spoke at Middlebury ten years ago 104 00:04:18.367 --> 00:04:20.033 and there was no big problem. 105 00:04:20.033 --> 00:04:22.000 After his more controversial book. 106 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:24.601 He, since then, his 2012 book "Coming Apart" -- 107 00:04:24.601 --> 00:04:25.667 Much less controversial 108 00:04:25.667 --> 00:04:26.667 Much less controversial and that's what 109 00:04:26.667 --> 00:04:27.701 he was supposed to be speaking about -- 110 00:04:27.701 --> 00:04:29.868 Quoted an opinion columns of "The New York Times" 111 00:04:29.868 --> 00:04:30.601 left and right. 112 00:04:30.601 --> 00:04:33.167 It is the biggest problem of our age, 113 00:04:33.167 --> 00:04:34.167 I mean, why did Trump win? 114 00:04:34.167 --> 00:04:35.868 It is the coming apart by class. 115 00:04:35.868 --> 00:04:36.734 Yes. 116 00:04:36.734 --> 00:04:38.968 So yes, this should be the century 117 00:04:38.968 --> 00:04:39.701 of social sciences. 118 00:04:39.701 --> 00:04:41.968 We have gigantic social science problems. 119 00:04:41.968 --> 00:04:43.467 We need a social science establishment that can 120 00:04:43.467 --> 00:04:44.968 address these problems. 121 00:04:44.968 --> 00:04:47.667 But students are increasingly reacting. 122 00:04:47.667 --> 00:04:49.801 It's almost an allergic reaction because they are not exposed 123 00:04:49.801 --> 00:04:50.434 to diversity. 124 00:04:50.434 --> 00:04:52.801 So, Frank, if you were to give those who are 125 00:04:52.801 --> 00:04:55.267 organizing these protests the benefit of the doubt, 126 00:04:55.267 --> 00:04:56.767 how are they -- 127 00:04:56.767 --> 00:04:58.968 I want to second something Jonathan just said. 128 00:04:58.968 --> 00:05:02.334 It is a minority of students and it is a minority of schools. 129 00:05:02.334 --> 00:05:03.767 But they do set the tone. 130 00:05:03.767 --> 00:05:06.300 At those schools where this is prevalent, 131 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:07.868 it's really, really pronounced. 132 00:05:07.868 --> 00:05:11.167 We're producing graduates who have little sense of the true 133 00:05:11.167 --> 00:05:13.467 ideological political diversity of American life. 134 00:05:13.467 --> 00:05:15.968 I went within the last couple of years, I want to be vague, 135 00:05:15.968 --> 00:05:19.601 to a very esteemed liberal arts college in the northeast. 136 00:05:19.601 --> 00:05:22.801 When I was there, the president had a dinner for me 137 00:05:22.801 --> 00:05:24.000 at the president's house. 138 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:26.234 And all these faculty members went around the table and sang 139 00:05:26.234 --> 00:05:27.868 the praises of the school. 140 00:05:27.868 --> 00:05:31.534 And I heard about the affinity group they had for this group. 141 00:05:31.534 --> 00:05:33.167 I heard about XYZ. 142 00:05:33.167 --> 00:05:35.734 We got to the end, there were like 20 faculty members. 143 00:05:35.734 --> 00:05:37.067 At the end, they said, do you have any questions? 144 00:05:37.067 --> 00:05:39.567 They were all boasting about what a diverse environment 145 00:05:39.567 --> 00:05:40.234 they had. 146 00:05:40.234 --> 00:05:42.434 And I had one question, I said, is there a group for 147 00:05:42.434 --> 00:05:43.868 Republican students? 148 00:05:43.868 --> 00:05:47.167 And they looked at me like it had never occurred to them. 149 00:05:47.167 --> 00:05:50.601 And there was one student there, and she said, I think there is 150 00:05:50.601 --> 00:05:52.501 but they maybe have one member. 151 00:05:52.501 --> 00:05:55.334 Now schools trip over themselves to get 152 00:05:55.334 --> 00:05:56.934 racial diversity. 153 00:05:56.934 --> 00:06:00.067 They give a lot of lip service to socioeconomic diversity 154 00:06:00.067 --> 00:06:01.868 and some of them do better than others. 155 00:06:01.868 --> 00:06:03.968 But what about this whole other kind of diversity? 156 00:06:03.968 --> 00:06:07.968 How are we going to move forward as a country if many of our top 157 00:06:07.968 --> 00:06:12.601 schools are graduating kids who have no -- who can't even begin 158 00:06:12.601 --> 00:06:14.701 to process how a human being could vote for Donald Trump. 159 00:06:14.701 --> 00:06:15.634 They need to understand -- 160 00:06:15.634 --> 00:06:16.501 Right. 161 00:06:16.501 --> 00:06:17.801 -- who voted for Donald Trump and why 162 00:06:17.801 --> 00:06:19.000 and that they're not monsters. 163 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:20.334 If you were to give them the benefit of the doubt 164 00:06:20.334 --> 00:06:23.267 though, these students who are organizing and some of these 165 00:06:23.267 --> 00:06:26.234 academics, how would they rationalize this? 166 00:06:26.234 --> 00:06:27.601 How would they explain it? 167 00:06:27.601 --> 00:06:30.734 It is -- they would say this is hate speech. 168 00:06:30.734 --> 00:06:32.501 They would say Charles Murray was a racist. 169 00:06:32.501 --> 00:06:34.100 They would say would you let somebody from the Klan 170 00:06:34.100 --> 00:06:35.534 come up here and speak? 171 00:06:35.534 --> 00:06:37.968 And then they would say the same sorts of things about Milo 172 00:06:37.968 --> 00:06:39.734 or Millo, I don't know how to pronounce his first name, 173 00:06:39.734 --> 00:06:40.868 I really don't care to learn. 174 00:06:40.868 --> 00:06:41.868 (LAUGHTER) 175 00:06:41.868 --> 00:06:43.501 But in terms of his attitude towards 176 00:06:43.501 --> 00:06:45.133 trans students and all that. 177 00:06:45.133 --> 00:06:48.000 And if we're being really honest, it is hard to figure out 178 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:49.901 where the line is and everybody draws the line 179 00:06:49.901 --> 00:06:50.667 in different places. 180 00:06:50.667 --> 00:06:53.901 What is, you know, kind of constructive and acceptable 181 00:06:53.901 --> 00:06:56.667 dissent and what is pure provocation? 182 00:06:56.667 --> 00:06:59.033 I think Milo or Millo is pure provocation. 183 00:06:59.033 --> 00:07:02.167 Charles Murray has espoused a whole bunch of things I have 184 00:07:02.167 --> 00:07:05.567 problems with, via methodology that I have questions about. 185 00:07:05.567 --> 00:07:08.334 But I don't think he is merely a provocateur. 186 00:07:08.334 --> 00:07:10.701 And if you look at the book "Coming Apart," he is discussing 187 00:07:10.701 --> 00:07:13.400 some essential things in that book that in many ways 188 00:07:13.400 --> 00:07:16.167 augur the 2016 election cycle. 189 00:07:16.167 --> 00:07:18.868 I mean, that book is a precursor to "Hillbilly Elegy" which 190 00:07:18.868 --> 00:07:21.267 people are not raising the same questions about. 191 00:07:21.267 --> 00:07:22.601 His whole career, going back to 192 00:07:22.601 --> 00:07:24.334 "The Bell Curve," "The Bell Curve" is primarily 193 00:07:24.334 --> 00:07:26.167 a book about social class. 194 00:07:26.167 --> 00:07:29.767 And what happens when you start doing college admissions on 195 00:07:29.767 --> 00:07:34.000 the basis of IQ tests or SAT's rather than who your father was. 196 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.634 I think we have three giant divides in this country: 197 00:07:36.634 --> 00:07:39.868 there's a racial divide, there's a class divide, 198 00:07:39.868 --> 00:07:42.467 and there's a political divide, a left-right divide. 199 00:07:42.467 --> 00:07:45.701 And of these three, if you go back to 1980, since then, 200 00:07:45.701 --> 00:07:47.567 one of them has gotten a lot better, 201 00:07:47.567 --> 00:07:49.367 and two of them have gotten a lot worse. 202 00:07:49.367 --> 00:07:51.434 If this country ever blows part, it's gonna be because of 203 00:07:51.434 --> 00:07:53.901 the combination we're seeing of the class divide 204 00:07:53.901 --> 00:07:56.200 and the political divide. 205 00:07:56.200 --> 00:07:58.434 Now, in universities, we're mostly focused on the race 206 00:07:58.434 --> 00:08:00.100 problem, that is still an important problem, 207 00:08:00.100 --> 00:08:00.934 I'm not saying it is not. 208 00:08:00.934 --> 00:08:02.000 We need to work on it. 209 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:04.300 But I think that universities have an important role, 210 00:08:04.300 --> 00:08:05.434 a crucial role to play. 211 00:08:05.434 --> 00:08:07.901 They should be the premiere place where you bring people 212 00:08:07.901 --> 00:08:10.267 from all over the country who have, who are different 213 00:08:10.267 --> 00:08:12.734 in politics and different in class, and they learn to 214 00:08:12.734 --> 00:08:13.868 get along with each other. 215 00:08:13.868 --> 00:08:16.234 They learn to tolerate people who have different views. 216 00:08:16.234 --> 00:08:20.901 So how do your colleagues at NYU view you? 217 00:08:20.901 --> 00:08:25.033 Do they view you as an outcast or are they quietly supportive? 218 00:08:25.033 --> 00:08:27.434 Is there sort of like a silent majority on campus saying 219 00:08:27.434 --> 00:08:30.367 to you, thank you for being, what they would say is 220 00:08:30.367 --> 00:08:32.067 a voice of reason on this issue? 221 00:08:32.067 --> 00:08:33.501 Well, you have to look at it again, field by 222 00:08:33.501 --> 00:08:37.167 field, the academy is vast and it's like different countries. 223 00:08:37.167 --> 00:08:40.234 And so I suspect that if I, you know, if I were to give a talk 224 00:08:40.234 --> 00:08:42.234 in the English department or the gender studies department, 225 00:08:42.234 --> 00:08:44.467 I think it might not go so well. 226 00:08:44.467 --> 00:08:47.467 But by and large, the vast majority of professors 227 00:08:47.467 --> 00:08:49.434 are what you might call liberal left. 228 00:08:49.434 --> 00:08:50.667 They are not at all illiberal. 229 00:08:50.667 --> 00:08:53.300 They are really anti-illiberal -- I mean, they really believe 230 00:08:53.300 --> 00:08:54.033 in freedom of speech. 231 00:08:54.033 --> 00:08:59.801 And so since I have been on this mission, I suppose, to call 232 00:08:59.801 --> 00:09:01.601 attention to this problem that we've lost our political 233 00:09:01.601 --> 00:09:04.934 diversity in social sciences, nothing bad has happened to me. 234 00:09:04.934 --> 00:09:07.968 My colleges in social psychology have been very positive. 235 00:09:07.968 --> 00:09:11.868 They recognize yeah, you know, good research requires 236 00:09:11.868 --> 00:09:13.334 that we challenge each other. 237 00:09:13.334 --> 00:09:14.534 So nothing bad has happened to me. 238 00:09:14.534 --> 00:09:15.868 I have not been kicked out. 239 00:09:15.868 --> 00:09:17.634 You know, on the internet people say bad things about me, 240 00:09:17.634 --> 00:09:21.400 but in the academy, there has been a lot of support. 241 00:09:21.400 --> 00:09:22.868 So I'm actually very encouraged. 242 00:09:22.868 --> 00:09:25.167 We now have 400 members at Heterodox Academy. 243 00:09:25.167 --> 00:09:26.634 Please, for the viewers, explain what 244 00:09:26.634 --> 00:09:28.300 Heterodox is. 245 00:09:28.300 --> 00:09:30.767 So we pick the kind of obscure academic name 246 00:09:30.767 --> 00:09:32.801 because our goal is to appeal to professors. 247 00:09:32.801 --> 00:09:35.467 Everybody can agree that an orthodox academy 248 00:09:35.467 --> 00:09:36.801 would be a bad thing. 249 00:09:36.801 --> 00:09:38.901 If everybody, if we have a sacrament and we all pledge 250 00:09:38.901 --> 00:09:40.968 allegiance, truth is fine, we can all pledge allegiance 251 00:09:40.968 --> 00:09:44.467 to truth, but if the academy becomes focused on, you know, 252 00:09:44.467 --> 00:09:48.067 anti-racism, even if it is a good goal, if we all are like, 253 00:09:48.067 --> 00:09:50.934 this is our mission, that is going to blind us. 254 00:09:50.934 --> 00:09:53.734 So, Heterodox Academy started when a wrote a paper with a few 255 00:09:53.734 --> 00:09:56.567 other social psychologists showing that we have lost almost 256 00:09:56.567 --> 00:09:59.000 all of our political diversity in psychology. 257 00:09:59.000 --> 00:10:01.234 And then when we published that, I heard from people 258 00:10:01.234 --> 00:10:03.100 in other fields saying the same thing. 259 00:10:03.100 --> 00:10:06.534 And people who even would dare question the sort of 260 00:10:06.534 --> 00:10:09.467 the favored position get kind of shot down or humiliated. 261 00:10:09.467 --> 00:10:12.000 And so our research is kind, you know, 262 00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.267 only in the politicized areas. 263 00:10:13.267 --> 00:10:15.367 In certain areas, our research I think is not as reliable 264 00:10:15.367 --> 00:10:16.334 as it would be. 265 00:10:16.334 --> 00:10:18.100 So me and some other professors, we got together, 266 00:10:18.100 --> 00:10:20.868 we said hey, let's buy a web domain name, 267 00:10:20.868 --> 00:10:23.367 let's start writing, let's call attention to this. 268 00:10:23.367 --> 00:10:26.000 And we are I think the most balanced organization 269 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:27.267 in the entire academy. 270 00:10:27.267 --> 00:10:29.234 We are about even between left and right. 271 00:10:29.234 --> 00:10:31.901 We have a lot of centrists and libertarians. 272 00:10:31.901 --> 00:10:34.567 So if you go to heterodoxacademy.org and if you 273 00:10:34.567 --> 00:10:36.400 are a professor, join. 274 00:10:36.400 --> 00:10:37.634 We are just advocating. 275 00:10:37.634 --> 00:10:40.300 You know, we need to have sort of the give and take. 276 00:10:40.300 --> 00:10:42.334 We need freedom of inquiry. 277 00:10:42.334 --> 00:10:44.067 I want to come back to what Frank said about 278 00:10:44.067 --> 00:10:47.634 students not being exposed to people who may view the world 279 00:10:47.634 --> 00:10:49.000 differently, ideologically. 280 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:50.400 The whole point of education. 281 00:10:50.400 --> 00:10:53.434 Right, so, talk about when these students are 282 00:10:53.434 --> 00:10:55.934 leaving their senior year of college and they're actually 283 00:10:55.934 --> 00:10:57.701 pursuing jobs, professionally. 284 00:10:57.701 --> 00:11:02.400 Not just lack of ideological diversity, but what this means 285 00:11:02.400 --> 00:11:04.901 for them in terms of their ability to compete in 286 00:11:04.901 --> 00:11:08.868 an increasingly cut-throat, competitive, you know, 287 00:11:08.868 --> 00:11:10.467 employment environment? 288 00:11:10.467 --> 00:11:11.868 Well, they're very, very rigid 289 00:11:11.868 --> 00:11:13.434 in their notions of how things should be. 290 00:11:13.434 --> 00:11:15.467 And I think that translates well beyond politics 291 00:11:15.467 --> 00:11:16.267 to everything else. 292 00:11:16.267 --> 00:11:19.868 I hear employers complaining all the time about this generation 293 00:11:19.868 --> 00:11:22.334 of students because they hate to be challenged, 294 00:11:22.334 --> 00:11:23.801 they hate to be countermanded. 295 00:11:23.801 --> 00:11:25.167 They have been told you're right, you're right, 296 00:11:25.167 --> 00:11:26.000 you're right. 297 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:28.634 And that "you're right" extends to their ideological beliefs 298 00:11:28.634 --> 00:11:31.968 in these incredibly homogeneous enclaves that we constructed 299 00:11:31.968 --> 00:11:35.067 for them in the Ivy League, outside the Ivy League. 300 00:11:35.067 --> 00:11:37.167 Again, the minority of schools as Jonathan says, 301 00:11:37.167 --> 00:11:40.701 but a significant number of the schools that feed some of 302 00:11:40.701 --> 00:11:42.234 the employers, I think, you have in mind when you're 303 00:11:42.234 --> 00:11:43.434 asking that question. 304 00:11:43.434 --> 00:11:45.100 You say the same thing for the business school? 305 00:11:45.100 --> 00:11:45.968 Not so much. 306 00:11:45.968 --> 00:11:47.934 Business school is much more pragmatic. 307 00:11:47.934 --> 00:11:48.434 Yes. 308 00:11:48.434 --> 00:11:50.601 I was in the psychology department at UVA. 309 00:11:50.601 --> 00:11:53.868 If you're in the school of liberal arts, things are just 310 00:11:53.868 --> 00:11:56.901 much more ideological, much more about projecting an image 311 00:11:56.901 --> 00:11:59.334 of yourself as having certain kind of politics. 312 00:11:59.334 --> 00:12:00.934 Business students are much more pragmatic. 313 00:12:00.934 --> 00:12:03.968 There are hints of it, but business schools, engineering 314 00:12:03.968 --> 00:12:07.767 schools, natural sciences, those have very little of this. 315 00:12:07.767 --> 00:12:09.234 What I am hearing from students because lots of students write 316 00:12:09.234 --> 00:12:11.367 to me now, is that education schools and social work schools 317 00:12:11.367 --> 00:12:12.501 are the worst. 318 00:12:12.501 --> 00:12:14.501 Those are some of -- I don't know, but the ones I hear about 319 00:12:14.501 --> 00:12:16.734 are really, really repressive. 320 00:12:16.734 --> 00:12:19.400 So I think that should be very concerning. 321 00:12:19.400 --> 00:12:20.868 And you're concerned about just in terms of 322 00:12:20.868 --> 00:12:22.434 how we're preparing students. 323 00:12:22.434 --> 00:12:23.300 Oh, my God. 324 00:12:23.300 --> 00:12:26.234 So to build on what Frank said, I think the best analogy here 325 00:12:26.234 --> 00:12:28.567 is to understand what is happening with peanut allergies. 326 00:12:28.567 --> 00:12:30.234 Why are peanut allergies rising? 327 00:12:30.234 --> 00:12:32.701 They have been rising at an alarming rate since the '90s. 328 00:12:32.701 --> 00:12:34.133 So what do we do? 329 00:12:34.133 --> 00:12:37.100 I take my kids to school, we get these long lectures on how 330 00:12:37.100 --> 00:12:39.200 we can't have any peanut butter in school. 331 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:41.567 If you bring them, you are basically expelled. 332 00:12:41.567 --> 00:12:42.367 That's right. 333 00:12:42.367 --> 00:12:44.634 A report came out last year, do you know why peanut allergies 334 00:12:44.634 --> 00:12:46.100 are rising? 335 00:12:46.100 --> 00:12:48.334 Because we haven't exposed kids to peanuts, 336 00:12:48.334 --> 00:12:50.000 that is the reason they are rising. 337 00:12:50.000 --> 00:12:52.267 So the new recommendation is you have to give kids 338 00:12:52.267 --> 00:12:54.033 peanuts early. 339 00:12:54.033 --> 00:12:54.534 Right. 340 00:12:54.534 --> 00:12:55.334 So this is what we have been doing. 341 00:12:55.334 --> 00:12:56.868 (LAUGHTER) 342 00:12:56.868 --> 00:12:58.267 It is not even a metaphor. 343 00:12:58.267 --> 00:13:00.934 I mean, it is the exact same psychological process. 344 00:13:00.934 --> 00:13:02.634 So Nassim Taleb has this wonderful book called 345 00:13:02.634 --> 00:13:04.033 Anti-fragile. 346 00:13:04.033 --> 00:13:05.801 Kids are anti-fragile. 347 00:13:05.801 --> 00:13:07.801 If you are fragile, it means oh, if I knock this, it will break, 348 00:13:07.801 --> 00:13:08.534 don't knock it. 349 00:13:08.534 --> 00:13:09.067 Right. 350 00:13:09.067 --> 00:13:10.601 But anti-fragile, like your bones, 351 00:13:10.601 --> 00:13:13.100 your brain, your personality, you need challenges, you need 352 00:13:13.100 --> 00:13:16.033 setbacks, you need to experience exclusion and insult 353 00:13:16.033 --> 00:13:18.167 in order to make it to adulthood. 354 00:13:18.167 --> 00:13:21.400 The biggest problem I think is the loss of unsupervised play. 355 00:13:21.400 --> 00:13:23.868 So Lenore Skenazy has been brilliant on this with her book 356 00:13:23.868 --> 00:13:25.067 Free-Range Kids. 357 00:13:25.067 --> 00:13:27.467 You know, in our childhoods, after school, we spend time 358 00:13:27.467 --> 00:13:29.033 where there was no adult around. 359 00:13:29.033 --> 00:13:30.067 But there was a real -- 360 00:13:30.067 --> 00:13:31.267 No after school program. 361 00:13:31.267 --> 00:13:32.100 Imagine that. 362 00:13:32.100 --> 00:13:33.767 You just have to come home and kind of figure out 363 00:13:33.767 --> 00:13:34.934 how to keep yourself busy. 364 00:13:34.934 --> 00:13:35.901 Yes, that's right. 365 00:13:35.901 --> 00:13:39.067 And so -- but in the '80s, there was a real crime wave. 366 00:13:39.067 --> 00:13:40.868 There were anti-bullying measures. 367 00:13:40.868 --> 00:13:42.200 There was a fear of abduction. 368 00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:44.968 So for a variety of reasons, kids basically were never 369 00:13:44.968 --> 00:13:46.534 out of adult oversight. 370 00:13:46.534 --> 00:13:48.801 And now in many towns, you can get arrested if your kid 371 00:13:48.801 --> 00:13:50.400 goes to the park to play. 372 00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:51.868 So, you know, we can't be too tough on these kids. 373 00:13:51.868 --> 00:13:56.567 We have deprived them of, in the name of keeping them safe and 374 00:13:56.567 --> 00:13:59.567 happy and comfortable, we have deprived them of uncomfortable 375 00:13:59.567 --> 00:14:01.267 experiences with their peers. 376 00:14:01.267 --> 00:14:03.133 There is always an adult around. 377 00:14:03.133 --> 00:14:04.334 And so they come to campus. 378 00:14:04.334 --> 00:14:06.868 This is the last chance, the last chance we could possibly 379 00:14:06.868 --> 00:14:09.667 give young Americans to learn to work out their differences. 380 00:14:09.667 --> 00:14:10.367 And we don't do it. 381 00:14:10.367 --> 00:14:13.467 We have more and more deans and processes and bias response 382 00:14:13.467 --> 00:14:16.033 teams so that there is always an adult to call in 383 00:14:16.033 --> 00:14:17.000 to settle the problem. 384 00:14:17.000 --> 00:14:18.634 This is the -- I mean, to use the jargon of 385 00:14:18.634 --> 00:14:20.067 today, this is the helicopter parent 386 00:14:20.067 --> 00:14:21.934 producing the bubble-wrapped kid. 387 00:14:21.934 --> 00:14:24.734 When I did my college book about admissions to elite 388 00:14:24.734 --> 00:14:27.501 schools and all that, the complaint I heard most often 389 00:14:27.501 --> 00:14:30.801 from deans of admission, from college presidents at the very 390 00:14:30.801 --> 00:14:33.667 top schools in terms of selectiveness was that these 391 00:14:33.667 --> 00:14:37.000 kids arrive on campus and they are overachievers by every 392 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.200 metric that that college is using. 393 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.801 And the phrase that sticks with me is, one admissions dean said, 394 00:14:41.801 --> 00:14:44.167 I'm always amazed by the stunning 395 00:14:44.167 --> 00:14:45.667 fragility of these kids. 396 00:14:45.667 --> 00:14:46.234 Wow. 397 00:14:46.234 --> 00:14:48.067 Which is exactly what Jonathan was talking about. 398 00:14:48.067 --> 00:14:49.234 And so what do we do? 399 00:14:49.234 --> 00:14:51.100 We give them these safe spaces. 400 00:14:51.100 --> 00:14:52.734 We construct these affinity groups. 401 00:14:52.734 --> 00:14:56.234 And debate about that is so shot down, I wrote a column not long 402 00:14:56.234 --> 00:14:59.767 ago, asking the question, all of these colleges that put 403 00:14:59.767 --> 00:15:02.434 so much effort into bringing in a diverse class, 404 00:15:02.434 --> 00:15:05.033 once those kids are on campus, what do they do to actually 405 00:15:05.033 --> 00:15:06.767 promote interaction? 406 00:15:06.767 --> 00:15:09.334 So that you have diverse interactions and -- 407 00:15:09.334 --> 00:15:10.300 Imagine that. 408 00:15:10.300 --> 00:15:12.100 Right, and don't -- affinity groups, safe 409 00:15:12.100 --> 00:15:15.167 spaces -- don't those sort of work in the opposite direction? 410 00:15:15.167 --> 00:15:17.400 I was forwarded Tweets where people who were saying things 411 00:15:17.400 --> 00:15:19.601 like I never knew Frank Bruni was such a racist. 412 00:15:19.601 --> 00:15:22.934 I was a racist because -- so you asked how did Jonathan's 413 00:15:22.934 --> 00:15:23.968 colleagues react to him? 414 00:15:23.968 --> 00:15:27.100 When I talk to people in higher education, he is a hero because 415 00:15:27.100 --> 00:15:29.934 he is bringing up stuff about free speech and ideological 416 00:15:29.934 --> 00:15:32.868 diversity that they know needs to bring -- but they won't say 417 00:15:32.868 --> 00:15:34.901 that in the public square, or they won't say the same things 418 00:15:34.901 --> 00:15:37.868 he is saying because they are so worried about a kind of shaming 419 00:15:37.868 --> 00:15:41.734 that the left, right now, sadly seems to specialize in. 420 00:15:41.734 --> 00:15:43.334 Yes, I think this is really crucial. 421 00:15:43.334 --> 00:15:46.100 Mark Lilla had a piece in "The New York Times" right after 422 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:49.334 the election on the problem of identity politics and how this 423 00:15:49.334 --> 00:15:51.334 may have alienated a lot of people and contributed 424 00:15:51.334 --> 00:15:53.267 to Trump's victory. 425 00:15:53.267 --> 00:15:56.501 And the response from many academics was ferocious. 426 00:15:56.501 --> 00:15:58.534 One of his colleagues at Columbia, within a few days, 427 00:15:58.534 --> 00:16:02.067 had some essay basically linking him to the Ku Klux Klan. 428 00:16:02.067 --> 00:16:04.000 But here is the point. 429 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:06.868 So Lilla comes back with this brilliant point. 430 00:16:06.868 --> 00:16:10.234 He says, that's a slur, not an argument. 431 00:16:10.234 --> 00:16:12.200 And once he said that, I realized oh my God, 432 00:16:12.200 --> 00:16:15.033 that is exactly what has been happening to me. 433 00:16:15.033 --> 00:16:17.033 I've been saying some pretty provocative things beginning 434 00:16:17.033 --> 00:16:19.400 with an Atlantic article with Greg Lukianoff, and I keep 435 00:16:19.400 --> 00:16:21.868 looking on the internet for people who will respond to it. 436 00:16:21.868 --> 00:16:25.734 And pretty much nobody is -- nobody is arguing against me for 437 00:16:25.734 --> 00:16:28.567 anything I say, but I do get a lot of people basically saying, 438 00:16:28.567 --> 00:16:31.767 I am a white male or I somehow I am winking at racism, 439 00:16:31.767 --> 00:16:32.367 something like that. 440 00:16:32.367 --> 00:16:36.367 So, young people who go through these colleges, they're exposed 441 00:16:36.367 --> 00:16:39.767 to rhetorical training that prevents them from 442 00:16:39.767 --> 00:16:41.234 learning how to engage. 443 00:16:41.234 --> 00:16:45.400 They are trained carefully in how to basically 444 00:16:45.400 --> 00:16:46.968 discredit your opponent. 445 00:16:46.968 --> 00:16:49.334 Slur, they learn to slur. 446 00:16:49.334 --> 00:16:50.367 They do not learn to argue. 447 00:16:50.367 --> 00:16:52.434 So go look at the tape from Middlebury 448 00:16:52.434 --> 00:16:54.601 and that's exactly what you see, you see students with their 449 00:16:54.601 --> 00:16:57.133 backs turned, and they are chanting slurs, 450 00:16:57.133 --> 00:16:58.567 they are not having an intellectual argument. 451 00:16:58.567 --> 00:17:01.400 And then what happens is they decide to move 452 00:17:01.400 --> 00:17:05.400 Dr. Murray and the Middlebury professor to another room. 453 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:07.567 Which, credit Middlebury for having that 454 00:17:07.567 --> 00:17:10.868 in place, Middlebury is not the villain here at all. 455 00:17:10.868 --> 00:17:15.267 And actually, the professor, Allison Stanger, 456 00:17:15.267 --> 00:17:19.234 she said she wanted to challenge him, the reason she brought him, 457 00:17:19.234 --> 00:17:21.567 and the reason she wanted to interview him was because 458 00:17:21.567 --> 00:17:24.133 she strongly disagreed with his ideas and she was looking 459 00:17:24.133 --> 00:17:26.934 to a robust spirited debate. 460 00:17:26.934 --> 00:17:29.100 And she is the one who wound up in the hospital. 461 00:17:29.100 --> 00:17:29.734 Here is the thing. 462 00:17:29.734 --> 00:17:32.400 I want to kind of retract a little bit to what I just said. 463 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.868 Middlebury is not the villain in the way they handled his visit. 464 00:17:34.868 --> 00:17:35.567 Right. 465 00:17:35.567 --> 00:17:36.534 They did all the right things. 466 00:17:36.534 --> 00:17:38.667 But the culture is being created at schools like 467 00:17:38.667 --> 00:17:41.400 Middlebury, are producing students who behave that way. 468 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.467 I mean, it is fine -- and it's more free speech and more 469 00:17:44.467 --> 00:17:47.067 free speech is better -- for students to protest a speaker 470 00:17:47.067 --> 00:17:50.567 coming, stand outside the venue, you know, in some way make clear 471 00:17:50.567 --> 00:17:52.200 I don't believe in what is being said in there, 472 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:54.267 I want to offer a contrary perspective. 473 00:17:54.267 --> 00:17:56.200 But what you had happen at Middlebury and what you had 474 00:17:56.200 --> 00:17:58.334 happen at UC Berkeley when Millo/Milo went -- 475 00:17:58.334 --> 00:18:01.634 this is a stand I'm taking, I can't pronounce it -- 476 00:18:01.634 --> 00:18:05.567 what you saw was a form of registering disagreement 477 00:18:05.567 --> 00:18:07.934 that was completely out of bounds and has nothing to do 478 00:18:07.934 --> 00:18:08.868 with enlightened discourse. 479 00:18:08.868 --> 00:18:09.534 That's right. 480 00:18:09.534 --> 00:18:10.868 I think this calls attention to 481 00:18:10.868 --> 00:18:12.734 a gigantic generation gap. 482 00:18:12.734 --> 00:18:15.701 It is not just the millennials, it actually seemed to start just 483 00:18:15.701 --> 00:18:18.300 two to four years ago, this sort of new -- this new way 484 00:18:18.300 --> 00:18:19.767 of thinking, this new moral order. 485 00:18:19.767 --> 00:18:22.100 If you look at terms like safe space, trigger warning, 486 00:18:22.100 --> 00:18:24.400 they only really begin to emerge around 2012, 2013, 487 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.067 if you look at Google trends. 488 00:18:26.067 --> 00:18:28.601 The big wave of dis-invitations was 2013. 489 00:18:28.601 --> 00:18:30.100 So there is a kind of new moral order. 490 00:18:30.100 --> 00:18:32.968 And I think social media is absolutely central to this. 491 00:18:32.968 --> 00:18:38.300 Facebook lowered its age for -- you could join it at 13 in 2006, 492 00:18:38.300 --> 00:18:39.901 2007, something like that, around there. 493 00:18:39.901 --> 00:18:43.567 So the first wave of people, of kids who had been growing up 494 00:18:43.567 --> 00:18:46.934 on social media just graduated a year or two ago. 495 00:18:46.934 --> 00:18:49.801 So it is just -- it is the younger millennials. 496 00:18:49.801 --> 00:18:52.534 They have grown up totally linked to each other, always 497 00:18:52.534 --> 00:18:54.934 with their finger on the button, always knowing anything I say, 498 00:18:54.934 --> 00:18:57.467 I could be not just shamed in front of seven people, 499 00:18:57.467 --> 00:18:58.868 but in front of the entire planet. 500 00:18:58.868 --> 00:19:01.300 It could be an international sensation. 501 00:19:01.300 --> 00:19:03.100 This generation also reflects the fact that when 502 00:19:03.100 --> 00:19:06.334 you curate your information the way you can now with the 503 00:19:06.334 --> 00:19:09.334 internet, when you choose only certain Twitter feeds to follow, 504 00:19:09.334 --> 00:19:12.534 when you like and share only certain things on Facebook 505 00:19:12.534 --> 00:19:14.534 that then let an algorithm kick in. 506 00:19:14.534 --> 00:19:17.167 We are living in a time when not just this generation but they're 507 00:19:17.167 --> 00:19:20.234 the kind of newcomers to it but everybody is able to 508 00:19:20.234 --> 00:19:23.267 construct their information flow and thus, the reality, 509 00:19:23.267 --> 00:19:25.667 and to live apart in these siloed ways online 510 00:19:25.667 --> 00:19:27.701 and you are seeing that reflected in this too. 511 00:19:27.701 --> 00:19:29.234 We can block, you can literally block. 512 00:19:29.234 --> 00:19:30.901 Why can't I block Charles Murray? 513 00:19:30.901 --> 00:19:32.767 Why can't I press a button and keep him off campus? 514 00:19:32.767 --> 00:19:33.601 If you can do it on the internet, 515 00:19:33.601 --> 00:19:34.868 why can't you do it in the flesh? 516 00:19:34.868 --> 00:19:37.968 So, when I was on college campus, I was active in 517 00:19:37.968 --> 00:19:40.501 the Israel debate, the Israel debate about the peace process. 518 00:19:40.501 --> 00:19:44.801 When I speak to students today on campus, they say the BDS 519 00:19:44.801 --> 00:19:48.133 movement, the Boycott Divestment and Sanctions debate, 520 00:19:48.133 --> 00:19:50.667 boycotting Israel, getting campuses to boycott Israel, 521 00:19:50.667 --> 00:19:55.133 it's no longer just between those who support one policy 522 00:19:55.133 --> 00:19:58.200 on Israel and those who oppose another policy which it was like 523 00:19:58.200 --> 00:19:59.434 when I was going to college. 524 00:19:59.434 --> 00:20:04.968 Now, those who are hostile to Israel or U.S. policy towards 525 00:20:04.968 --> 00:20:09.100 Israel, are joined by almost like a coalition of all these 526 00:20:09.100 --> 00:20:11.868 different factions who know nothing about the issue, 527 00:20:11.868 --> 00:20:12.868 but they all lock arms. 528 00:20:12.868 --> 00:20:13.701 That's right. 529 00:20:13.701 --> 00:20:18.133 The key to the new morality is a method of looking at society 530 00:20:18.133 --> 00:20:19.801 and looking in terms of power and privilege. 531 00:20:19.801 --> 00:20:23.734 So the old idea of an education is come to campus, we'll teach 532 00:20:23.734 --> 00:20:26.901 you lots of perspectives that you can use, you know, what, 533 00:20:26.901 --> 00:20:27.801 let's look at poverty. 534 00:20:27.801 --> 00:20:29.133 What would an economist say? 535 00:20:29.133 --> 00:20:31.167 You know, what would a Marxist say? 536 00:20:31.167 --> 00:20:32.968 You used to have a lot of perspectives to look 537 00:20:32.968 --> 00:20:34.601 at a single problem. 538 00:20:34.601 --> 00:20:36.234 What is happening now is some students -- again, it's only 539 00:20:36.234 --> 00:20:38.968 in a few departments -- but they are learning one perspective 540 00:20:38.968 --> 00:20:40.601 to look at everything. 541 00:20:40.601 --> 00:20:43.634 And so you start, so there is a good kind of identity politics, 542 00:20:43.634 --> 00:20:46.167 which is, you know, if black people are being denied rights, 543 00:20:46.167 --> 00:20:47.868 let's fight for their rights, that's the good kind. 544 00:20:47.868 --> 00:20:50.801 But there is a bad kind which is to train students, train young 545 00:20:50.801 --> 00:20:53.467 people to say let's divide everybody up by their race, 546 00:20:53.467 --> 00:20:54.667 gender, other categories. 547 00:20:54.667 --> 00:20:57.601 We'll assign them morale merit based on their level of 548 00:20:57.601 --> 00:21:00.701 privilege is bad, and victimhood is good. 549 00:21:00.701 --> 00:21:02.734 Okay, now let's look at everything through this lens. 550 00:21:02.734 --> 00:21:04.801 Israel, the Palestinians are the victims. 551 00:21:04.801 --> 00:21:08.667 So therefore, they are the good and the Jews or the Israelis 552 00:21:08.667 --> 00:21:09.634 are the bad. 553 00:21:09.634 --> 00:21:11.667 And then you get -- and then that, so there is one 554 00:21:11.667 --> 00:21:13.200 totalizing perspective. 555 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.801 All social problems get reduced to this simple framework. 556 00:21:15.801 --> 00:21:17.100 I think we are doing them a disservice. 557 00:21:17.100 --> 00:21:20.167 I think where actually making students less wise. 558 00:21:20.167 --> 00:21:21.734 You know what else I seen on campuses, Dan, 559 00:21:21.734 --> 00:21:25.334 is students who are not part of, who don't have 560 00:21:25.334 --> 00:21:26.901 the party line down pat. 561 00:21:26.901 --> 00:21:29.000 They really feel muffled. 562 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:31.567 For some reason frequently when I've been on campuses, I will 563 00:21:31.567 --> 00:21:35.033 have a student guide or end up with a student who gives some 564 00:21:35.033 --> 00:21:37.434 sort of tell that he or she is religious. 565 00:21:37.434 --> 00:21:39.868 And I will say to that person, and I'm not a particularly 566 00:21:39.868 --> 00:21:42.067 religious person in the way we define it in this country, 567 00:21:42.067 --> 00:21:46.033 but I believe fervently in freedom along those lines. 568 00:21:46.033 --> 00:21:49.234 I will say to that student, how comfortable do you feel bringing 569 00:21:49.234 --> 00:21:52.467 up your religion or God in class or in the fraternity house 570 00:21:52.467 --> 00:21:55.334 or sorority house or whatever, and always this sort of -- 571 00:21:55.334 --> 00:21:57.567 they are so happy I asked the question, you know, 572 00:21:57.567 --> 00:21:59.267 I almost never talk about it. 573 00:21:59.267 --> 00:22:00.701 That is so wrong. 574 00:22:00.701 --> 00:22:03.067 You mentioned Israel, I think if you are an Israel supporter, 575 00:22:03.067 --> 00:22:06.167 you probably bite your tongue more than you shout it out. 576 00:22:06.167 --> 00:22:07.200 Right, keep your head down. 577 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:07.968 And you shouldn't have to do that. 578 00:22:07.968 --> 00:22:08.534 Right. 579 00:22:08.534 --> 00:22:12.634 So this report that you do, how many campuses do you touch 580 00:22:12.634 --> 00:22:13.868 in this report? 581 00:22:13.868 --> 00:22:16.167 So far, we have, we just took the U.S. 582 00:22:16.167 --> 00:22:19.167 News and World Report top 150 and we said, we don't want 583 00:22:19.167 --> 00:22:20.767 people just looking at that and going for the top. 584 00:22:20.767 --> 00:22:22.934 What if you actually care about exposure diversity? 585 00:22:22.934 --> 00:22:24.667 So that's -- we have that up. 586 00:22:24.667 --> 00:22:26.467 Soon in the next couple of weeks, we are gonna get up 587 00:22:26.467 --> 00:22:28.234 the top 50 of liberal arts colleges. 588 00:22:28.234 --> 00:22:30.167 It appears -- I don't know for sure, but it appears that 589 00:22:30.167 --> 00:22:32.267 liberal arts colleges especially in New England 590 00:22:32.267 --> 00:22:34.801 are particularly intense on this. 591 00:22:34.801 --> 00:22:36.767 So we're going to get those ranked in the next 592 00:22:36.767 --> 00:22:37.634 couple of weeks. 593 00:22:37.634 --> 00:22:40.100 So in the Middlebury case, so Murray 594 00:22:40.100 --> 00:22:44.300 and Stanger are driven from the stage, they decide to set up 595 00:22:44.300 --> 00:22:46.701 a separate room like a satellite room where they are gonna 596 00:22:46.701 --> 00:22:50.033 conduct their interview and live stream it into the audience. 597 00:22:50.033 --> 00:22:50.567 Right. 598 00:22:50.567 --> 00:22:51.367 Someone pulls the fire alarm. 599 00:22:51.367 --> 00:22:54.367 Someone pulls the fire alarm and then the sort of 600 00:22:54.367 --> 00:22:56.734 mob -- according to the public reports there is a good report 601 00:22:56.734 --> 00:22:59.300 in "The Washington Post," a good report in the "Weekly 602 00:22:59.300 --> 00:23:01.767 Standard" here from a former student there, Middlebury, 603 00:23:01.767 --> 00:23:04.601 so this mob of students with masks on. 604 00:23:04.601 --> 00:23:05.701 Some of them, yes. 605 00:23:05.701 --> 00:23:10.067 They start -- they're listening on the live 606 00:23:10.067 --> 00:23:12.901 stream for whether or not the fire alarms are breaking through 607 00:23:12.901 --> 00:23:15.267 in the live stream so they can determine if they are getting 608 00:23:15.267 --> 00:23:18.634 closer to the room and then they could storm the room. 609 00:23:18.634 --> 00:23:21.100 So when this happens, there is campus security. 610 00:23:21.100 --> 00:23:23.200 There is campus law enforcement. 611 00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:26.801 They seemed, I guess based on what I have seen, to have been 612 00:23:26.801 --> 00:23:28.868 almost absent from the situation. 613 00:23:28.868 --> 00:23:31.100 Actually, if you go to the AEI website, 614 00:23:31.100 --> 00:23:34.267 Charles Murray writes about it all himself. 615 00:23:34.267 --> 00:23:35.534 On Twitter in there, he thanks -- 616 00:23:35.534 --> 00:23:36.200 Campus security. 617 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:37.868 -- campus security, yes. 618 00:23:37.868 --> 00:23:39.968 I mean, I think they were doing what they could. 619 00:23:39.968 --> 00:23:42.501 Luckily, no one was hurt, right, at the end of the day. 620 00:23:42.501 --> 00:23:44.868 The Middlebury professor who was interviewing 621 00:23:44.868 --> 00:23:46.734 Murray wound up in the hospital way with a neck injury 622 00:23:46.734 --> 00:23:47.868 because someone -- 623 00:23:47.868 --> 00:23:49.767 Before we leave, one thing I don't think we said 624 00:23:49.767 --> 00:23:53.267 loudly and clearly enough is when people on the left or 625 00:23:53.267 --> 00:23:55.868 however you want, when they try to shut down this debate, 626 00:23:55.868 --> 00:23:59.234 do they not realize that Donald Trump's election in 2016 627 00:23:59.234 --> 00:24:01.267 is partly the fruit of those sorts of actions? 628 00:24:01.267 --> 00:24:04.400 I know so many people who flirted with voting for Trump, 629 00:24:04.400 --> 00:24:07.534 who did vote for Trump, who were responding to his 630 00:24:07.534 --> 00:24:10.167 destruction of a kind of political correctness 631 00:24:10.167 --> 00:24:11.968 that they find oppressive. 632 00:24:11.968 --> 00:24:15.234 And so there is a real relevance to what we are talking about 633 00:24:15.234 --> 00:24:18.601 today on campus, and who is governing our country right now. 634 00:24:18.601 --> 00:24:21.734 And I don't think the people on the left have wrestled 635 00:24:21.734 --> 00:24:22.667 adequately with that. 636 00:24:22.667 --> 00:24:24.667 And the reason is because you have to see this 637 00:24:24.667 --> 00:24:27.467 not as a practical method of addressing problems. 638 00:24:27.467 --> 00:24:30.901 It is the dawn of a new religion and I study moral psychology 639 00:24:30.901 --> 00:24:34.801 as though it's religion, politics, even sports tribalism, 640 00:24:34.801 --> 00:24:36.567 they are all manifestations of a tribalism. 641 00:24:36.567 --> 00:24:38.200 And I think we see this in the Charles Murray case 642 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:39.534 very clearly. 643 00:24:39.534 --> 00:24:42.334 I just watched the video again today before coming here. 644 00:24:42.334 --> 00:24:45.400 At the end when the administrators say okay, 645 00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.801 we're going to move the talk -- and somebody screamed, 646 00:24:47.801 --> 00:24:50.000 off campus, off campus. 647 00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:51.701 And then he says, "to another venue on campus" then they 648 00:24:51.701 --> 00:24:55.300 scream, because what you have to see is the campus is their 649 00:24:55.300 --> 00:24:58.634 church, that's right, you cannot have blasphemy on campus. 650 00:24:58.634 --> 00:25:00.534 And so the best way to understand what happened 651 00:25:00.534 --> 00:25:02.167 I think is an "Auto-Da-Fe." 652 00:25:02.167 --> 00:25:06.000 It's a religious right coming together to punish the sinner, 653 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:09.400 to punish the devil, and to reaffirm our community. 654 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:12.133 So I think, I mean it is a crazy time, but it's also an 655 00:25:12.133 --> 00:25:14.567 incredibly fascinating time to be a social scientist because 656 00:25:14.567 --> 00:25:16.567 this is like straight out of Emile Durkheim 657 00:25:16.567 --> 00:25:17.334 what we are seeing today. 658 00:25:17.334 --> 00:25:18.734 It is so hard that you really want to salute 659 00:25:18.734 --> 00:25:20.067 the passion of those students. 660 00:25:20.067 --> 00:25:23.667 I mean, I like that they are engaged, but I don't think they 661 00:25:23.667 --> 00:25:25.934 understand or the people who've constructed these campus 662 00:25:25.934 --> 00:25:29.234 environments understand the potential damage they're doing. 663 00:25:29.234 --> 00:25:30.801 If only they learned that any virtue 664 00:25:30.801 --> 00:25:33.000 carried to excess becomes a vice. 665 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:34.567 Right, and -- 666 00:25:34.567 --> 00:25:37.133 Baby Boomers did so good at learning that, right? 667 00:25:37.133 --> 00:25:39.267 In ten years, the college campus could become 668 00:25:39.267 --> 00:25:42.367 unrecognizable to us if this trend continues. 669 00:25:42.367 --> 00:25:46.067 So hopefully we had a discussion today that will lead us 670 00:25:46.067 --> 00:25:47.534 in the direction to not let that happen. 671 00:25:47.534 --> 00:25:49.133 I want to thank you both for being here. 672 00:25:49.133 --> 00:25:51.000 Jonathan Haidt, Frank Bruni, thanks for 673 00:25:51.000 --> 00:25:52.467 an illuminating discussion. 674 00:25:52.467 --> 00:25:52.868 Thanks. 675 00:25:52.868 --> 00:25:53.634 Thanks.