WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.133 --> 00:00:00.901 Good evening. 2 00:00:00.901 --> 00:00:03.300 I'm Dan Senor, filling in for Charlie Rose. 3 00:00:03.300 --> 00:00:06.133 This week, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee is expected 4 00:00:06.133 --> 00:00:08.167 to vote on President Trump's nominee 5 00:00:08.167 --> 00:00:09.934 for ambassador to Israel. 6 00:00:09.934 --> 00:00:13.000 Questions abound about the future of U.S. policy 7 00:00:13.000 --> 00:00:15.067 in the Middle East, the future of the peace process, 8 00:00:15.067 --> 00:00:17.868 and the changing dynamics of Israel and the region. 9 00:00:17.868 --> 00:00:21.701 My two guests tonight have each recently made new contributions 10 00:00:21.701 --> 00:00:24.834 to the timeless discussion about the history of Israel. 11 00:00:24.834 --> 00:00:27.601 Shimon Dotan who teaches at New York University 12 00:00:27.601 --> 00:00:30.400 is an award-winning Israeli film director, screenwriter, 13 00:00:30.400 --> 00:00:32.334 and producer. 14 00:00:32.334 --> 00:00:34.968 His newest film, "The Settlers," premiered at Sundance 15 00:00:34.968 --> 00:00:38.467 in the New York Film Festival and is in theaters now. 16 00:00:38.467 --> 00:00:42.133 Daniel Gordis teaches at Shalem College in Jerusalem and is 17 00:00:42.133 --> 00:00:45.934 author of "Israel: A Concise History of a Nation Reborn" 18 00:00:45.934 --> 00:00:48.667 which won the Book of the Year from the National Jewish 19 00:00:48.667 --> 00:00:49.801 Book Awards. 20 00:00:49.801 --> 00:00:52.601 I thank you both for being at this table. 21 00:00:52.601 --> 00:00:55.334 Shimon, let me start with you. 22 00:00:55.334 --> 00:00:58.367 A movie about the settlements. 23 00:00:58.367 --> 00:01:01.267 It's a perplexing problem, the settlements, 24 00:01:01.267 --> 00:01:03.534 that have been around for a while. 25 00:01:03.534 --> 00:01:04.767 Why now? 26 00:01:04.767 --> 00:01:07.601 Why did you choose to do this now? 27 00:01:07.601 --> 00:01:09.601 Now is as good as ever. 28 00:01:09.601 --> 00:01:15.033 But especially now because I find it is constantly 29 00:01:15.033 --> 00:01:17.534 at the center of discussions whenever anybody talks about 30 00:01:17.534 --> 00:01:19.000 Israel and the region. 31 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:23.601 And in many cases, the conversation is misinformed. 32 00:01:23.601 --> 00:01:26.400 And I thought I would embark on a project that would present 33 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:31.734 the history of the settlements, the ideological and religious 34 00:01:31.734 --> 00:01:34.868 elements that drove it, and the reality on the ground today. 35 00:01:34.868 --> 00:01:38.601 And I hope the document that is on the screen is a proper 36 00:01:38.601 --> 00:01:40.767 representation of this reality. 37 00:01:40.767 --> 00:01:43.801 Daniel Gordis, your book, "Israel: A Concise History 38 00:01:43.801 --> 00:01:49.033 of a Nation Reborn," one could say another book about 39 00:01:49.033 --> 00:01:51.834 the history of Israel, what was missing from the discussion that 40 00:01:51.834 --> 00:01:55.501 sparked this interest in your doing another book on Israel? 41 00:01:55.501 --> 00:01:57.467 Actually there is not as many as one would 42 00:01:57.467 --> 00:01:59.467 think, but there are a number of others as you point out. 43 00:01:59.467 --> 00:02:01.734 I did it precisely because Shimon is right. 44 00:02:01.734 --> 00:02:04.033 Everybody is talking about the settlements which is a critical 45 00:02:04.033 --> 00:02:06.100 and very complicated problem. 46 00:02:06.100 --> 00:02:08.901 But the settlements aren't the whole story of Israel. 47 00:02:08.901 --> 00:02:12.534 The conversation about Israel in government, on college campuses, 48 00:02:12.534 --> 00:02:15.434 where people live, has become really conflict centric. 49 00:02:15.434 --> 00:02:17.501 People want to know, is Trump going to be good 50 00:02:17.501 --> 00:02:18.501 or bad for Israel? 51 00:02:18.501 --> 00:02:20.067 Was Obama good or bad for Israel? 52 00:02:20.067 --> 00:02:22.734 The Iran deal, good or bad, settlements, David Freedman, 53 00:02:22.734 --> 00:02:25.601 whatever the case may be, when people think about Israel, 54 00:02:25.601 --> 00:02:27.234 they really think about the conflict. 55 00:02:27.234 --> 00:02:30.334 But imagine somebody came to us and said, I don't really 56 00:02:30.334 --> 00:02:31.634 understand what America is about. 57 00:02:31.634 --> 00:02:32.501 I come from a different country. 58 00:02:32.501 --> 00:02:34.334 I understand it is a great republic. 59 00:02:34.334 --> 00:02:37.133 I know there are really profound ideas at its core, 60 00:02:37.133 --> 00:02:38.100 but I don't know what they are. 61 00:02:38.100 --> 00:02:40.901 Can you tell me a little bit about what makes America great? 62 00:02:40.901 --> 00:02:44.133 And then I said to that person, well, there was a war in 1776. 63 00:02:44.133 --> 00:02:45.033 I will skip a few. 64 00:02:45.033 --> 00:02:46.267 There was a war in 1812. 65 00:02:46.267 --> 00:02:48.400 There was a civil war between '62 and '65. 66 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.667 First world war, second world war, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, 67 00:02:51.667 --> 00:02:54.300 Afghanistan, there are others. 68 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:56.367 But the point is that I haven't told the person anything about 69 00:02:56.367 --> 00:02:58.434 what makes this country great, I haven't told him anything 70 00:02:58.434 --> 00:03:01.400 about Thomas Jefferson and his dream for a new kind of republic 71 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:02.868 and new kind of democracy. 72 00:03:02.868 --> 00:03:04.934 They haven't gotten a whiff of what is in the federalist 73 00:03:04.934 --> 00:03:07.601 papers, the way the founding fathers of this country wrestled 74 00:03:07.601 --> 00:03:11.000 with states rights and federal rights and so on and so forth. 75 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:13.501 They haven't read Lincoln's addresses long before he becomes 76 00:03:13.501 --> 00:03:16.400 president, the Lyceum Address, for example, where he worries 77 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.601 about the rule of the mob, or Martin Luther King's letter 78 00:03:19.601 --> 00:03:20.767 from the Birmingham Jail. 79 00:03:20.767 --> 00:03:23.601 Those are the kinds of things that you need to read in order 80 00:03:23.601 --> 00:03:25.634 to really understand what Israel is about. 81 00:03:25.634 --> 00:03:28.234 Israel is definitely mired in a conflict and the settlements 82 00:03:28.234 --> 00:03:30.601 are part of that conflict, they're an important part. 83 00:03:30.601 --> 00:03:32.968 But Israel is really a dream come true for the Jewish people 84 00:03:32.968 --> 00:03:35.534 and it has been an extraordinary human accomplishment. 85 00:03:35.534 --> 00:03:37.501 I thought it was time that somebody try to tell the story 86 00:03:37.501 --> 00:03:40.033 with the settlements and the conflict in the book 87 00:03:40.033 --> 00:03:42.434 but not to make the whole story about that. 88 00:03:42.434 --> 00:03:46.167 I want to show one clip of your film, Shimon. 89 00:03:46.167 --> 00:03:49.868 This is a clip of Sara Nachson who is co-founder of 90 00:03:49.868 --> 00:03:52.601 the Jewish settlement in Hebron, discussing treatment 91 00:03:52.601 --> 00:03:53.901 of the early settlers. 92 00:03:53.901 --> 00:03:54.934 Let's take a look. 93 00:04:47.801 --> 00:04:50.901 So, Shimon, do you think Sarah Nachson is 94 00:04:50.901 --> 00:04:56.067 representative of the settler movement at large in Israel, 95 00:04:56.067 --> 00:05:02.267 that they almost proudly regard themselves as obstacles to 96 00:05:02.267 --> 00:05:05.067 any kind of accommodation with the Palestinians? 97 00:05:05.067 --> 00:05:07.534 She definitely represents the early settlers. 98 00:05:07.534 --> 00:05:11.133 At a time that she was talking about, it was really a handful 99 00:05:11.133 --> 00:05:14.300 of settlers that got into Hebron and they forced their 100 00:05:14.300 --> 00:05:16.901 will, led by Rabbi Moshe Levinger, 101 00:05:16.901 --> 00:05:18.601 on the Israeli government. 102 00:05:18.601 --> 00:05:21.767 However, the reality today, it's much more complex 103 00:05:21.767 --> 00:05:24.534 and it's a completely different population. 104 00:05:24.534 --> 00:05:27.467 Out of the 400,000 settlers or so that are in the West Bank 105 00:05:27.467 --> 00:05:32.133 today, about 20 percent of them are ideologically, religiously 106 00:05:32.133 --> 00:05:36.167 driven and the vast majority are there for economical reasons. 107 00:05:36.167 --> 00:05:39.000 So a lot of them are very practical. 108 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:40.000 Absolutely, yes, yes. 109 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:44.400 And in 2005 when Israel did the disengagement 110 00:05:44.400 --> 00:05:46.968 from Gaza -- so -- and I know you don't -- 111 00:05:46.968 --> 00:05:47.834 August 2005. 112 00:05:47.834 --> 00:05:48.801 August 2005. 113 00:05:48.801 --> 00:05:53.667 So is -- the Israeli government orders the IDF to go into Gaza 114 00:05:53.667 --> 00:05:56.667 and forcibly remove thousands of settlers? 115 00:05:56.667 --> 00:05:58.701 Yes, 7,500. 116 00:05:58.701 --> 00:06:01.667 And what do you think that tells us about 117 00:06:01.667 --> 00:06:05.634 the Israeli people and their representative government's 118 00:06:05.634 --> 00:06:07.267 attitude towards the settlers? 119 00:06:07.267 --> 00:06:10.667 That if there is a possibility, one could argue, to achieve some 120 00:06:10.667 --> 00:06:14.400 kind of peace, that they would challenge those settlers? 121 00:06:14.400 --> 00:06:15.934 Let me put it this way. 122 00:06:15.934 --> 00:06:18.968 To my knowledge, there is no point in time when an Israeli 123 00:06:18.968 --> 00:06:23.901 government body did an analysis and the strategic evaluation of 124 00:06:23.901 --> 00:06:27.167 the benefits that the settlement enterprise yields 125 00:06:27.167 --> 00:06:29.400 to the State of Israeli. 126 00:06:29.400 --> 00:06:31.667 Quite a contrary, whenever somebody made something like 127 00:06:31.667 --> 00:06:34.400 that out of government, the result was that there is 128 00:06:34.400 --> 00:06:38.133 detrimental entity to the State of Israel. 129 00:06:38.133 --> 00:06:42.334 What happened in Gaza, it was driven, I would suggest, in good 130 00:06:42.334 --> 00:06:45.200 part by the fact that it just become too costly to maintain 131 00:06:45.200 --> 00:06:48.000 the settlements over there, and Ariel Sharon decided 132 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:50.100 he had to take them out. 133 00:06:50.100 --> 00:06:54.033 It was -- I would say this is a proof to the fact that 134 00:06:54.033 --> 00:06:56.000 it's possible to remove settlements. 135 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.901 But nevertheless, it's a proof to the fact that the government 136 00:06:58.901 --> 00:07:02.601 of Israel, if it has the will, it can do that. 137 00:07:02.601 --> 00:07:04.934 And the fact that the settlements are all over the 138 00:07:04.934 --> 00:07:09.400 West Bank is absolutely an act of the Israeli government. 139 00:07:09.400 --> 00:07:11.434 And it's too easy to vilify the settlers 140 00:07:11.434 --> 00:07:13.634 and say it's their doing. 141 00:07:13.634 --> 00:07:16.934 It's their doing -- and as she said, she wanted to be a bone 142 00:07:16.934 --> 00:07:18.467 in the throat of the government. 143 00:07:18.467 --> 00:07:21.467 But the government has to be willing to leave this bone 144 00:07:21.467 --> 00:07:22.801 stuck in its throat. 145 00:07:22.801 --> 00:07:26.000 That's how it behaved for the last 50 years almost. 146 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:29.167 But the Israeli government took a risk. 147 00:07:29.167 --> 00:07:31.067 They had the will, as you said, Ariel Sharon, 148 00:07:31.067 --> 00:07:33.534 to pull out of Gaza. 149 00:07:33.534 --> 00:07:35.667 And it was an experiment. 150 00:07:35.667 --> 00:07:39.434 And some would argue that what Israel got following that 151 00:07:39.434 --> 00:07:41.901 experiment was not peaceful coexistence. 152 00:07:41.901 --> 00:07:46.300 But was a Hamas takeover of Gaza, and thousands of rockets 153 00:07:46.300 --> 00:07:50.868 being rained on Sderot and even further north 154 00:07:50.868 --> 00:07:52.501 from southern Israel. 155 00:07:52.501 --> 00:07:54.100 When you divorce somebody, it depends 156 00:07:54.100 --> 00:07:55.634 how you divorce them. 157 00:07:55.634 --> 00:07:59.667 Israel did not create an environment that will allow 158 00:07:59.667 --> 00:08:04.534 the population of Gaza to engage in any progress, 159 00:08:04.534 --> 00:08:06.000 vis-a-vis Israel. 160 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:07.300 Quite the contrary. 161 00:08:07.300 --> 00:08:10.100 The siege over Gaza was strengthened, was maintained, 162 00:08:10.100 --> 00:08:13.167 and in the lack of any political horizon, 163 00:08:13.167 --> 00:08:15.267 you cannot expect anything different. 164 00:08:15.267 --> 00:08:20.000 I'm not in any way defending the Hamas or the Gazan government. 165 00:08:20.000 --> 00:08:22.801 But I do think that it is in Israel's power. 166 00:08:22.801 --> 00:08:26.968 It was then as it is today to change the set of 167 00:08:26.968 --> 00:08:29.767 the preconditions that will allow the progress 168 00:08:29.767 --> 00:08:31.701 throughout the political horizon. 169 00:08:31.701 --> 00:08:33.100 Daniel, could Israel have done more? 170 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:35.868 Israel did strengthen the blockade. 171 00:08:35.868 --> 00:08:38.767 But Israeli strengthening the blockade is not what caused 172 00:08:38.767 --> 00:08:40.634 Gaza to elect Hamas. 173 00:08:40.634 --> 00:08:44.133 Hamas was elected pretty quickly after the disengagement. 174 00:08:44.133 --> 00:08:46.467 But Hamas is a mess and Gaza is a mess. 175 00:08:46.467 --> 00:08:48.200 There is reason that the Egyptians didn't even want it 176 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:50.834 back when they were negotiating a peace treaty with Israel. 177 00:08:50.834 --> 00:08:54.033 The more pressing question for peace is the West Bank. 178 00:08:54.033 --> 00:08:57.267 And the question is really, is there a possibility of creating 179 00:08:57.267 --> 00:09:00.067 what most people I think still want, what I think Shimon wants, 180 00:09:00.067 --> 00:09:01.801 what I want, which is a two state solution. 181 00:09:01.801 --> 00:09:03.934 And I think what you are seeing when Shimon talks about 182 00:09:03.934 --> 00:09:06.601 the Israeli government being unwilling to take a stand, 183 00:09:06.601 --> 00:09:08.734 I think it is really the Israeli people being unwilling to take 184 00:09:08.734 --> 00:09:12.467 a stand because nobody knows what you are taking a stand on. 185 00:09:12.467 --> 00:09:13.968 You can get out of there. 186 00:09:13.968 --> 00:09:15.701 But the question is what fills the vacuum? 187 00:09:15.701 --> 00:09:16.501 Israelis are worried. 188 00:09:16.501 --> 00:09:19.100 They saw the experiment in 2005. 189 00:09:19.100 --> 00:09:20.834 I was in favor of the disengagement. 190 00:09:20.834 --> 00:09:22.701 I thought it was a good idea. 191 00:09:22.701 --> 00:09:26.334 In the end, I would have to say it was a failed idea, 192 00:09:26.334 --> 00:09:27.601 that it is good that we tried. 193 00:09:27.601 --> 00:09:29.200 Because we learned something by it. 194 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:31.767 Interestingly enough, by the way, Israel's international 195 00:09:31.767 --> 00:09:35.300 popularity plummeted right after the disengagement. 196 00:09:35.300 --> 00:09:37.868 Didn't go up, as many Israelis thought it would, which is 197 00:09:37.868 --> 00:09:39.601 a strange kind of a thing that I don't really understand 198 00:09:39.601 --> 00:09:40.801 to this very day. 199 00:09:40.801 --> 00:09:43.901 But the question really is, there was a really very 200 00:09:43.901 --> 00:09:46.501 interesting comment in the clip of the movie that we just saw 201 00:09:46.501 --> 00:09:49.234 where the gentleman speaking before the interview says that 202 00:09:49.234 --> 00:09:52.868 the 500,000 settlers have turned into a monster. 203 00:09:52.868 --> 00:09:55.901 He uses the word, Hebrew word -- they've turned into the monster 204 00:09:55.901 --> 00:09:57.367 that's standing in the way of peace. 205 00:09:57.367 --> 00:10:00.601 I think it's interesting what is really standing in the way of 206 00:10:00.601 --> 00:10:03.601 peace is what is standing in the way of peace, these 500,000 207 00:10:03.601 --> 00:10:06.667 settlers, which as you both acknowledge Israel could remove 208 00:10:06.667 --> 00:10:09.601 if it wanted to, or is what is standing in the way of peace 209 00:10:09.601 --> 00:10:11.901 the fact that the Palestinians on the West Bank 210 00:10:11.901 --> 00:10:14.167 still basically are not willing to negotiate. 211 00:10:14.167 --> 00:10:18.300 As recently as February 2014, John Kerry himself has said that 212 00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:20.901 in these very sort of private conversations happening 213 00:10:20.901 --> 00:10:23.601 between him and Netanyahu and Abbas, 214 00:10:23.601 --> 00:10:25.234 at the end of the day, Abbas just pulled the plug. 215 00:10:25.234 --> 00:10:28.434 He expected the United States to push through everything 216 00:10:28.434 --> 00:10:30.100 that the Palestinians want and because it was 217 00:10:30.100 --> 00:10:33.133 an Obama administration to force that on Israel. 218 00:10:33.133 --> 00:10:35.901 When he realized that he wasn't going to get everything that he 219 00:10:35.901 --> 00:10:39.100 wanted, he just basically pulled the plug on the negotiations 220 00:10:39.100 --> 00:10:42.534 and said, Kerry, at the end of the day, the Israelis made 221 00:10:42.534 --> 00:10:44.501 some accommodations in these negotiations. 222 00:10:44.501 --> 00:10:46.300 The Palestinians at the end didn't budge. 223 00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:49.200 And tragically, that's really been the bottom line story. 224 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.100 The Palestinians have done an exceedingly good job of telling 225 00:10:52.100 --> 00:10:55.267 a very different tale and of weaving a different narrative. 226 00:10:55.267 --> 00:10:57.601 And again, it's important to state, 227 00:10:57.601 --> 00:10:59.367 I actually would like the Palestinians to have a state. 228 00:10:59.367 --> 00:11:00.901 I would like them to have a democratic state. 229 00:11:00.901 --> 00:11:03.534 I would like them to have a thriving economic state. 230 00:11:03.534 --> 00:11:06.234 I would like their kids not to have to patrol the border 231 00:11:06.234 --> 00:11:08.634 because of my kids and my kids not to have to patrol 232 00:11:08.634 --> 00:11:10.334 the border because of their kids. 233 00:11:10.334 --> 00:11:12.467 But in order to do that, both sides are going to have to 234 00:11:12.467 --> 00:11:14.367 make some very far-reaching accommodations. 235 00:11:14.367 --> 00:11:16.701 So, Shimon, when you were, go ahead. 236 00:11:16.701 --> 00:11:21.267 I disagree with you in principle. 237 00:11:21.267 --> 00:11:22.868 Yes, we agree on the end results. 238 00:11:22.868 --> 00:11:24.601 We both want the same end results. 239 00:11:24.601 --> 00:11:28.133 We do appreciate that the two-state is the only solution 240 00:11:28.133 --> 00:11:29.100 in the region. 241 00:11:29.100 --> 00:11:31.634 But I think that to put the blame on the Palestinian, 242 00:11:31.634 --> 00:11:34.400 for that matter, to put the blame on one side, 243 00:11:34.400 --> 00:11:37.234 is ignoring the facts on the ground. 244 00:11:37.234 --> 00:11:40.534 Israel is the authority in the region. 245 00:11:40.534 --> 00:11:41.968 The strongest power. 246 00:11:41.968 --> 00:11:44.968 Israel does not face any military threat whatsoever 247 00:11:44.968 --> 00:11:45.701 in the region. 248 00:11:45.701 --> 00:11:50.067 And because of that, it's its responsibility to extend a hand, 249 00:11:50.067 --> 00:11:51.501 to take the initiative. 250 00:11:51.501 --> 00:11:54.300 We have to recognize that we live now in the West Bank where 251 00:11:54.300 --> 00:11:58.467 the reality is 2.7, 2.8 million Palestinians, in the midst of 252 00:11:58.467 --> 00:12:01.167 them, more than 400,000 Israelis. 253 00:12:01.167 --> 00:12:06.501 Now, this reality is terrible from the standpoint of Israel, 254 00:12:06.501 --> 00:12:08.400 not only of the Palestinians. 255 00:12:08.400 --> 00:12:12.667 And to ignore that and to wait for the Palestinians to somehow 256 00:12:12.667 --> 00:12:15.601 appease to some of Israel's demand, I think it's quite 257 00:12:15.601 --> 00:12:18.033 a short sight of the phenomenon. 258 00:12:18.033 --> 00:12:22.534 And if Israel will not recognize that it's upon her to initiate, 259 00:12:22.534 --> 00:12:27.234 to extend a hand, to come up with a proposition that will be 260 00:12:27.234 --> 00:12:31.167 out of a position of power and stop trying to present itself 261 00:12:31.167 --> 00:12:33.968 as a victim in the region, it will never change. 262 00:12:33.968 --> 00:12:36.434 And it will last for eternity. 263 00:12:36.434 --> 00:12:38.901 And eternity starts to feel quite long especially 264 00:12:38.901 --> 00:12:40.634 as we get to the end of it. 265 00:12:40.634 --> 00:12:41.868 Eternity always felt quite long. 266 00:12:41.868 --> 00:12:45.767 But I think you are right in the sense that this has 267 00:12:45.767 --> 00:12:47.267 a much wider context. 268 00:12:47.267 --> 00:12:49.601 But before we go back to the context, Ehud Barak would tell 269 00:12:49.601 --> 00:12:51.667 you that he made a far-reaching accommodation to 270 00:12:51.667 --> 00:12:53.834 the Palestinians, that he did give an outreached hand, 271 00:12:53.834 --> 00:12:55.767 and that it was rebuffed. 272 00:12:55.767 --> 00:12:58.133 Ehud Olmert, subsequent prime minister, will tell you that 273 00:12:58.133 --> 00:13:00.367 he made a very far-reaching overture to the Palestinians 274 00:13:00.367 --> 00:13:02.000 and that was rebuffed. 275 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:04.100 And Bill Clinton would tell that that was exactly right. 276 00:13:04.100 --> 00:13:06.834 You have a sort of a third party who would acknowledge 277 00:13:06.834 --> 00:13:08.434 that that's the case. 278 00:13:08.434 --> 00:13:10.534 So first of all, I don't buy the idea that Israel 279 00:13:10.534 --> 00:13:11.601 has never reached out. 280 00:13:11.601 --> 00:13:13.033 I think Israel does reach out. 281 00:13:13.033 --> 00:13:16.334 Now, Israel has no military threat to face in the region. 282 00:13:16.334 --> 00:13:18.300 That's not entirely the case obviously depending on 283 00:13:18.300 --> 00:13:19.968 what fills the vacuum in the West Bank. 284 00:13:19.968 --> 00:13:22.834 That's why Israel, for example, is insisting on a military 285 00:13:22.834 --> 00:13:25.367 presence along the Jordan River which the Palestinians so far 286 00:13:25.367 --> 00:13:27.167 are unwilling to countenance. 287 00:13:27.167 --> 00:13:30.100 Israel is insisting on that for exactly the same reason. 288 00:13:30.100 --> 00:13:32.501 It's very hard to know what comes across the Syrian border, 289 00:13:32.501 --> 00:13:34.534 goes down Jordan, goes across. 290 00:13:34.534 --> 00:13:35.601 You and I want the same thing. 291 00:13:35.601 --> 00:13:38.501 So let's talk for a minute about why we don't have the world 292 00:13:38.501 --> 00:13:39.467 that you and I both want. 293 00:13:39.467 --> 00:13:41.133 We both are Israelis. 294 00:13:41.133 --> 00:13:43.934 We both care deeply about the future of the country. 295 00:13:43.934 --> 00:13:45.801 We would both like the Palestinians and Israelis 296 00:13:45.801 --> 00:13:46.934 to live side-by-side. 297 00:13:46.934 --> 00:13:48.801 So really, why has this not happened? 298 00:13:48.801 --> 00:13:51.767 And I think here is part of the reason that I wrote the book, 299 00:13:51.767 --> 00:13:54.267 the book tries to explain that this conflict 300 00:13:54.267 --> 00:13:55.667 has a very long history. 301 00:13:55.667 --> 00:13:59.133 We're coming on almost a century of conflict beginning in 302 00:13:59.133 --> 00:14:03.334 1929 when over the course of one weekend, Arab rioters destroyed 303 00:14:03.334 --> 00:14:05.901 the Jewish community of Hebron which had been in place 304 00:14:05.901 --> 00:14:08.067 for literally centuries. 305 00:14:08.067 --> 00:14:10.968 And then there was a riot later on in 1936 306 00:14:10.968 --> 00:14:13.601 when the Peel Commission came from Britain. 307 00:14:13.601 --> 00:14:15.467 And they decided, they looked at the map, they looked at the 308 00:14:15.467 --> 00:14:18.534 Jews, they looked at the Arabs and said, in 1936, the Jews 309 00:14:18.534 --> 00:14:21.133 and the Arabs are not going to be able to live together. 310 00:14:21.133 --> 00:14:23.601 We have a radical idea, let's divide the land. 311 00:14:23.601 --> 00:14:26.234 The Jews thought they were getting all of that land plus 312 00:14:26.234 --> 00:14:28.200 something on the other side of the Jordan River, 313 00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.033 Peel said you are getting a small piece of what is 314 00:14:30.033 --> 00:14:32.133 actually even now Israel. 315 00:14:32.133 --> 00:14:34.501 The Zionist back then was called the Yishuv, 316 00:14:34.501 --> 00:14:38.868 the pre-state -- they were very unhappy, and they said yes. 317 00:14:38.868 --> 00:14:40.767 And the Arabs were -- let me just finish -- the Arabs were 318 00:14:40.767 --> 00:14:45.367 very unhappy and launched the riots of 1936, 1937. 319 00:14:45.367 --> 00:14:49.467 In 1947, when the U.N. Partition Commission began to discuss 320 00:14:49.467 --> 00:14:52.868 whether to divide it up and how to divide what the map should 321 00:14:52.868 --> 00:14:56.400 be, the Zionists again, the Jews who actually saw this 322 00:14:56.400 --> 00:14:58.000 as their national liberation movement. 323 00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:00.100 This wasn't about just making a state. 324 00:15:00.100 --> 00:15:03.300 This was about ending the tenuousness of Jewish life 325 00:15:03.300 --> 00:15:04.000 across the world. 326 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:05.968 It was about saying, we don't want to live that way anymore. 327 00:15:05.968 --> 00:15:08.501 We don't want to live in England and then in 1290, 328 00:15:08.501 --> 00:15:09.634 when they decide they don't want anymore Jews, 329 00:15:09.634 --> 00:15:11.300 the Jews are gonna be gone. 330 00:15:11.300 --> 00:15:13.734 We don't want to live in Spain at the highest echelons of 331 00:15:13.734 --> 00:15:17.167 culture and philosophy and art, even pretty close 332 00:15:17.167 --> 00:15:18.634 to political power. 333 00:15:18.634 --> 00:15:21.467 And then Ferdinand Isabella in 1492 decided that the Jews 334 00:15:21.467 --> 00:15:23.801 can either burn at the stake, leave or convert. 335 00:15:23.801 --> 00:15:26.601 We don't want to be in Berlin in 1933 thinking that we have come 336 00:15:26.601 --> 00:15:29.000 to the ultimate home for the Jewish people and find us 337 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.734 all basically eradicated 12 years later. 338 00:15:31.734 --> 00:15:34.501 I think what the Jews were saying was this was about 339 00:15:34.501 --> 00:15:36.934 transforming the existential condition of the Jew. 340 00:15:36.934 --> 00:15:40.133 And that's why somebody like Chaim Weizmann who was Israel's 341 00:15:40.133 --> 00:15:42.467 first president, when the Jews were debating whether or not to 342 00:15:42.467 --> 00:15:45.601 take this much smaller map than they hoped for, he said 343 00:15:45.601 --> 00:15:49.501 if it's the size of a table cloth, you take the deal. 344 00:15:49.501 --> 00:15:53.434 Because we need just some place to call our own. 345 00:15:53.434 --> 00:15:55.601 And I have to say, if somebody on the Palestinian side were to 346 00:15:55.601 --> 00:15:58.400 say if it is the size of a table cloth, take the deal, and 347 00:15:58.400 --> 00:16:00.200 obviously they've been offered much more than a table cloth. 348 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:03.167 Because what we want more than anything else is to begin to 349 00:16:03.167 --> 00:16:05.501 establish our own national sovereign roots. 350 00:16:05.501 --> 00:16:08.467 My read of the history and obviously Shimon disagrees, but 351 00:16:08.467 --> 00:16:10.901 my read of the history is that at the end of the day, whether 352 00:16:10.901 --> 00:16:14.501 it was the five standing armies that attacked Israel in '47/'48, 353 00:16:14.501 --> 00:16:16.801 whether it was the Egyptians, the Jordanians, and the Syrians 354 00:16:16.801 --> 00:16:19.868 in '67 and '73, or the Palestinians much later, 355 00:16:19.868 --> 00:16:22.934 they just have not been willing to say once and for all 356 00:16:22.934 --> 00:16:25.300 the Jewish state has a right to exist. 357 00:16:25.300 --> 00:16:28.267 This land is our native land, but it's also the Jewish 358 00:16:28.267 --> 00:16:30.467 people's native land, and we ought to split it. 359 00:16:30.467 --> 00:16:34.667 Do you think it is reasonable for any Israeli 360 00:16:34.667 --> 00:16:37.434 government, left or right, to expect in return for a 361 00:16:37.434 --> 00:16:42.734 resolution of settlement policy, the territories that are 362 00:16:42.734 --> 00:16:46.300 clearly in dispute, that the Palestinian leadership and the 363 00:16:46.300 --> 00:16:49.667 Arab world recognize Israel's right to exist as a Jewish 364 00:16:49.667 --> 00:16:54.868 state, formally declare an end to the conflict, and understand 365 00:16:54.868 --> 00:16:58.100 that Israel may need to keep some security presence 366 00:16:58.100 --> 00:17:00.634 on the border between the West Bank and Jordan. 367 00:17:00.634 --> 00:17:01.934 Are those reasonable expectations? 368 00:17:01.934 --> 00:17:05.300 Because they seem to transcend party lines, 369 00:17:05.300 --> 00:17:07.167 the ideological spectrum in Israel. 370 00:17:07.167 --> 00:17:09.033 I'd say they are reasonable but they are not 371 00:17:09.033 --> 00:17:10.634 a precondition. 372 00:17:10.634 --> 00:17:13.167 There is one thing that I would say that's a precondition that 373 00:17:13.167 --> 00:17:16.067 we are going to resolve this issue once and forever. 374 00:17:16.067 --> 00:17:19.000 But the details of that should recognize Israel as a Jewish 375 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:22.434 state or not, it's an Israeli matter, it is not a Palestinian 376 00:17:22.434 --> 00:17:25.634 matter, as they do not ask us, and I don't think it's our 377 00:17:25.634 --> 00:17:29.267 place to recognize them, the kind of nationality they want 378 00:17:29.267 --> 00:17:30.501 to call themselves. 379 00:17:30.501 --> 00:17:32.667 But I want to go back to what Dan mentioned. 380 00:17:32.667 --> 00:17:35.467 You were very eloquent and I really appreciated your comments 381 00:17:35.467 --> 00:17:40.000 on the virtues of remembrance and forgetting. 382 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.834 You give a very eloquent speech on that. 383 00:17:42.834 --> 00:17:47.801 And I am somewhat surprised that at that standpoint when 384 00:17:47.801 --> 00:17:52.133 I generally do not believe that Israel is facing a military 385 00:17:52.133 --> 00:17:56.367 threat, we bring up memories of victimhood and make it 386 00:17:56.367 --> 00:18:00.601 an article in the political maneuvers that we're trying 387 00:18:00.601 --> 00:18:02.334 to make now. 388 00:18:02.334 --> 00:18:06.067 Zionism inception started as a secular movement. 389 00:18:06.067 --> 00:18:11.868 Herzl came with a wonderful idea to create a national state 390 00:18:11.868 --> 00:18:15.033 for the Jewish people, for one and only one reason, 391 00:18:15.033 --> 00:18:17.767 to provide safe haven to persecute the Jews. 392 00:18:17.767 --> 00:18:22.501 At no point in time did Zionism aspire to fulfill biblical 393 00:18:22.501 --> 00:18:25.133 prophesies or to hasten the arrival of the Messiah. 394 00:18:25.133 --> 00:18:28.367 And the main forces that brought us into the West Bank 395 00:18:28.367 --> 00:18:32.067 with the settlements was those two forces. 396 00:18:32.067 --> 00:18:33.767 And we have to recognize that. 397 00:18:33.767 --> 00:18:37.334 So any retreat from the West Bank or allowing the Palestinian 398 00:18:37.334 --> 00:18:39.868 to have their own state in the West Bank 399 00:18:39.868 --> 00:18:42.067 is the fulfillment of Zionism. 400 00:18:42.067 --> 00:18:43.901 It is not the negation of Zionism. 401 00:18:43.901 --> 00:18:46.234 I would suggest that the settlements in the West Bank 402 00:18:46.234 --> 00:18:48.200 are the negation of Zionism. 403 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.934 The region seems to be changing in a way that is 404 00:18:51.934 --> 00:18:54.501 much different from the status quo that existed for most 405 00:18:54.501 --> 00:18:57.667 all of my adult life up until now. 406 00:18:57.667 --> 00:19:00.801 You basically have a hundred year order in the region 407 00:19:00.801 --> 00:19:02.000 collapsing before our eyes. 408 00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:04.534 You have failed states left and right. 409 00:19:04.534 --> 00:19:06.167 You have borders that are being erased. 410 00:19:06.167 --> 00:19:09.234 You have massive refugee flows that we haven't seen 411 00:19:09.234 --> 00:19:12.133 at any time since the fall of the Ottoman empire 412 00:19:12.133 --> 00:19:14.968 and possibly the end of World War II. 413 00:19:14.968 --> 00:19:17.734 At any given day, you have no idea what government is gonna 414 00:19:17.734 --> 00:19:19.400 be in power in many of these Arab countries, 415 00:19:19.400 --> 00:19:20.701 like even Jordan. 416 00:19:20.701 --> 00:19:21.334 Right. 417 00:19:21.334 --> 00:19:26.601 How does that reality drive the exact debate 418 00:19:26.601 --> 00:19:27.767 you two are having right now? 419 00:19:27.767 --> 00:19:28.834 Start with you, Dan. 420 00:19:28.834 --> 00:19:30.067 I don't actually think that it drives it 421 00:19:30.067 --> 00:19:31.000 all that much. 422 00:19:31.000 --> 00:19:33.467 I think that reality drives Israel's concern about Iran. 423 00:19:33.467 --> 00:19:36.000 I think that reality drives Israel's concern about watching 424 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:38.334 its northern border very carefully where there were 425 00:19:38.334 --> 00:19:41.300 Russian planes and Syrian planes and Turkish planes 426 00:19:41.300 --> 00:19:42.367 and probably some of the -- 427 00:19:42.367 --> 00:19:43.801 ISIS potentially getting into the West Bank. 428 00:19:43.801 --> 00:19:46.334 But I don't think that's what is actually 429 00:19:46.334 --> 00:19:47.234 motivating this. 430 00:19:47.234 --> 00:19:49.467 I think that would be motivating Israel wanting 431 00:19:49.467 --> 00:19:53.968 a military presence along the river to try to stop this. 432 00:19:53.968 --> 00:19:55.434 Of course it's a concern. 433 00:19:55.434 --> 00:19:57.667 Every Israeli understands though, as Shimon said, 434 00:19:57.667 --> 00:19:59.701 we're not going to move anywhere unless we are willing 435 00:19:59.701 --> 00:20:00.801 to take some risks. 436 00:20:00.801 --> 00:20:04.067 I don't think the issue of Syria melting -- Syria melting down 437 00:20:04.067 --> 00:20:06.367 is a huge problem by the way because then you have hundreds 438 00:20:06.367 --> 00:20:08.834 of thousands, eventually millions of refugees potentially 439 00:20:08.834 --> 00:20:11.701 making their way into Jordan, which is desperate for Israel's 440 00:20:11.701 --> 00:20:12.734 help to stay stable. 441 00:20:12.734 --> 00:20:15.868 I mean, King Abdullah is a closet Zionist in his own way. 442 00:20:15.868 --> 00:20:17.601 He won't ever say that, but he knows he is in power 443 00:20:17.601 --> 00:20:19.367 in large measure because of that. 444 00:20:19.367 --> 00:20:20.634 He is afraid of Iran. 445 00:20:20.634 --> 00:20:22.467 And obviously, the Saudis are worried about Iran. 446 00:20:22.467 --> 00:20:24.000 And Egypt is worried about Iran. 447 00:20:24.000 --> 00:20:26.934 I mean, there is actually, as you said, a very changing map 448 00:20:26.934 --> 00:20:29.400 emerging in the Middle East where ironically, first of all 449 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:32.901 in the war of 2014, if anybody had told you when Israel 450 00:20:32.901 --> 00:20:36.601 and Egypt were at war in '73, that the war in 2014, 451 00:20:36.601 --> 00:20:39.200 Israel's biggest ally would be Egypt, somebody would've 452 00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:40.767 told you, you have really got it wrong. 453 00:20:40.767 --> 00:20:43.434 But Egypt was actually incredibly helpful to Israel 454 00:20:43.434 --> 00:20:45.200 in the 2014 war. 455 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.934 If somebody would have said one day a couple of decades ago that 456 00:20:47.934 --> 00:20:50.667 Israeli and Saudi officials were going to be in very, very 457 00:20:50.667 --> 00:20:53.033 close discussion because of Iran, they would have said 458 00:20:53.033 --> 00:20:56.033 that's crazy, but of course all those things are happening. 459 00:20:56.033 --> 00:20:57.734 But I don't think that's specifically the issue 460 00:20:57.734 --> 00:20:58.634 of the settlements. 461 00:20:58.634 --> 00:21:00.767 Yes, Israel needs a buffer and Israel needs to have 462 00:21:00.767 --> 00:21:02.234 the protection of the wider space. 463 00:21:02.234 --> 00:21:06.200 But I think that fundamentally, I was going back to the history 464 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:08.167 not because of history of victimhood. 465 00:21:08.167 --> 00:21:10.200 Going back to the history because the history suggests 466 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:13.367 what is the instinctive nature of the people with whom we have 467 00:21:13.367 --> 00:21:15.968 to make the deal, who so far have not been willing 468 00:21:15.968 --> 00:21:17.834 to recognize who and what we are. 469 00:21:17.834 --> 00:21:20.734 One last point about Herzl, Herzl was, it's true, in favor 470 00:21:20.734 --> 00:21:25.167 of Israel as a kind of a haven for Jews who needed haven. 471 00:21:25.167 --> 00:21:27.000 But he is not the last word on Zionism. 472 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:30.000 David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, had a much more 473 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.634 robust conception of what Zionism was gonna be. 474 00:21:32.634 --> 00:21:34.467 It involved bringing a language back to life, 475 00:21:34.467 --> 00:21:37.534 it embodied a new national culture. 476 00:21:37.534 --> 00:21:39.901 What the Jews have done in Israel is really to transform 477 00:21:39.901 --> 00:21:41.033 the Jewish people. 478 00:21:41.033 --> 00:21:42.601 That is what I wanted to show in this book. 479 00:21:42.601 --> 00:21:44.934 This is not just a bunch of people who moved from Europe 480 00:21:44.934 --> 00:21:48.367 or North Africa, came to Palestine and got into a war. 481 00:21:48.367 --> 00:21:51.100 This is a group of people who in many waves came to a new place, 482 00:21:51.100 --> 00:21:54.100 rebuilt an entire people, one of the grandest, 483 00:21:54.100 --> 00:21:56.734 most extraordinary human stories of all time, just needs 484 00:21:56.734 --> 00:21:59.067 the other side to recognize that we are also here to stay 485 00:21:59.067 --> 00:22:01.534 and put this behind us. 486 00:22:01.534 --> 00:22:03.167 We just have a minute, go ahead. 487 00:22:03.167 --> 00:22:06.033 That worked quite well until 1967. 488 00:22:06.033 --> 00:22:08.968 I'm sure that you know quite well, probably you too, 489 00:22:08.968 --> 00:22:12.267 that in the war of '48, the war for independence, Yigal 490 00:22:12.267 --> 00:22:15.100 Allon came to Ben-Gurion and said we can take the West Bank. 491 00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:16.033 We can do that. 492 00:22:16.033 --> 00:22:17.067 It is no problem. 493 00:22:17.067 --> 00:22:18.400 No military problem there. 494 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:19.934 And Ben-Gurion rejected that. 495 00:22:19.934 --> 00:22:23.434 He says, what are we going to do with 700,000 Palestinians? 496 00:22:23.434 --> 00:22:26.300 So now, we have 2.7 million Palestinians, we have 497 00:22:26.300 --> 00:22:29.767 the West Bank, and the question is exactly the same question. 498 00:22:29.767 --> 00:22:31.000 So the answer -- 499 00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:31.968 Is? 500 00:22:31.968 --> 00:22:34.267 The answer is a two-state solution. 501 00:22:34.267 --> 00:22:35.100 That's the answer. 502 00:22:35.100 --> 00:22:35.834 I think you both agree. 503 00:22:35.834 --> 00:22:37.334 So we're out of time. 504 00:22:37.334 --> 00:22:41.334 I would say that as a reflection of the health of the 505 00:22:41.334 --> 00:22:45.033 Israeli public debate, that you could have such -- two such 506 00:22:45.033 --> 00:22:47.834 talented and spirited individuals who don't exactly 507 00:22:47.834 --> 00:22:51.234 see eye-to-eye try to hash this out, really tells you about 508 00:22:51.234 --> 00:22:54.267 sort of the soul, the soul of Israel. 509 00:22:54.267 --> 00:22:55.734 So thank you both for being here. 510 00:22:55.734 --> 00:22:58.968 "The Settlers" is the film by Shimon Dotan which is out 511 00:22:58.968 --> 00:23:00.000 in theaters now. 512 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.934 The book is "Israel: A Concise History of a Nation Reborn" 513 00:23:02.934 --> 00:23:04.300 by Daniel Gordis. 514 00:23:04.300 --> 00:23:06.501 Thank you both for being at this table. 515 00:23:06.501 --> 00:23:07.033 Thank you. 516 00:23:07.033 --> 00:23:08.033 Thank you.